I watched the JC finals. I saw at 215 how Herdanez (sp) was about to pin Frandin and then the match was stopped. Someone sitting next to me told me that "frandin tapped out." I said "what does that mean?" Said he wasn't sure but something like if you are getting stuck you can tap on the mat and the dude pinning you has to let go - but that he gets four points. That all sounds messed up to me. So, whats the deal - can someone really 'tap' their way out of getting pinned?!

i'm not sure if you can tap out to stop the match but you can if you can't breath or are injured people have been none to fake injuries to stop from being pinned. If they stop the pin hold the give up four points.

Most good officials will just "tap" the mat themselves in that situation unless someone is in a potentially dangerous situation. Nosebleed maybe?

If kids say they can't breath, my opinion is they are saying that because they are about to get pinned....if you can talk, you can breath. I referee and unless they are bleading or it is potentially dangerous I won't stop the match. As for 4 points, its actually however many near fall points earned plus one. So if a ref only has a 3 count, then the top wrestler only gets 3 pts. But if he has reached a 5 count then 4 pts are awarded.

i dont know about you guys but i personally wouldn't want to keep wrestling with a guy whos bleeding a whole lot from his nose or something. im not screamish about the blood or anything but now a-days there's alot of stuff out there when it comes to blood diseases and getting one through a wrestling match doens't seem too appealing to me.

No joke. I agree with him, there's no need to get a disease or something like it from a wrestling match. And also, does anyone know why Hernandez is wrestling 215 now instead of 189?

Frandin had his hands in Hernandez's face and they stopped the match but instead of tony getting 4 points he only got three and Frandin got 1 for an ilegal headlock which was a bullsh*t call. thats the only way Frandin beat him.

I have watched this forum for a long time and enjoy the wrestling talk, but in this instance I feel compelled to comment. dwelsh, a lot of things are said in the stands from people who think they know the rules when they don't. If you have a question, ask one of the coaches (who you know). As far as the situation on the mat, yes Hernandez was near pinning Frandin, but in the process his elbow slipped out of the headlock leaving a wrist trapped with the head and the match was stopped. Maybe not the best situation for the Kapaun wrestler but it a situation addressed in the rule book. Frandin had a similar situation in the semi's when he had a leg ride and a power half (a pin was imminent, the bottom wrestler complained, the match was stopped and an additional back point was added). Wrestling officiating is a judgment call in many cases, with these rules in place to protect wrestlers in a vulnerable position. Was the call on the illegal head lock a break for Frandin ...without question. Was it Frandin's fault...no. Hernandez is a great wrestler and he showed his character in a tough loss. Opinions are fine, but please get all the facts prior to ranting and don't blame match outcomes on rules that are in the book. Thanks to everyone for supporting our sport.
John Steiger
Junction City Assistant Coach

For all who are unsure or uninformed on the rules about this situation:

Rule 5, Section 2, article 5 says:

"It is a near fall when the offensive wrestler has control of his opponent in a pinning situation and...

f. if the defensive wrestler is injured or bleeding occurs or if he indicates he is injured just prior to near-fall criteria being met, the match shall be stopped and a two-point near fall shall be awarded; or the match was stopped for an illegal hold, unnecessary roughness or unsportsmanlike conduct by the defensive wrestler; a penalty point will also be awarded.

g. if the defensive wrestler is inuured or bleeding occurs or if he indicates he is injured after near-fall criteria has been met, the match will be stopped and a three-point nearfall shall be awarded' or the match was stopped for an illegal hold, unnecessary roughness or unsportsmanlike conduct by the defensive wrestler; a penalty point will also be awarded.

h. if the defensive wrestler is injured or bleeding occurs or if he indicates he is injured after a three-point near fall has been earned, the match will be stopped and a 4-point near fall shall be awarded; or the match was stopped for an illegal hold, unnecessary roughness or unsportsmanlike conduct by the defensive wrestler; a penalty point will also be awarded. "


so, in layman's terms, F pretty much says "If a guy screams at a one count, the match will be stopped and 2 nearfall awarded. Unless the defensive guy is poking eyeballs or something, in which case the offensive wrestler will be awarded an extra point (totaling 3)."

G says "If a guy screams at a 2-4 count, the offensive wrestler gets 3 points, plus one more if there is unsportsmanlike conduct."

H says "if a guy screams after a 5 count, the offensive wrestler gets 4 points, plus one more if there is unsportsmanlike conduct."

Any questions?

I still think hernandez should of gotten that crybaby rule point alot earlier than whn he got stopped. Also the ref is supposed to get the kids hands out of his face i mean it was very distinct tony's head was straight up and frandin had his palms right under tonys nose the ref should of atleast gotten frandlin to remove his hands

This was not a situation where the "cry-baby" rule applies. That is why no additional near fall point was added. The match was not stopped due to a complaint by Frandin, it was stopped due to a previously legal hold that had become illegal.

This is in response to the notion that if you can talk, you can breathe. I have heard refs say this too and it is absolutely false. Being able to talk means only that you can breathe out or at least have air squeezed out of you. The safety of the wrestlers is the primary concern of the ref and most of them do an excellent job at this.

John-

Thanks for your post which further clarifys things for me.

As far as your comment below:

"please get all the facts prior to ranting and don't blame match outcomes on rules that are in the book."

I don't think I was 'ranting' and I wasn't blaming anyone. I just wanted to get a better idea of what happened and what rules applied to that particular situation. And yes - I could have asked you or Laster, but this forum was available and convenient.

Anyway, thanks again for your thoughts and I'll talk with ya later. Dean

If you sat on the side opposite of the announcers stand you would have seen Hernandez kept the arm. There was no illegal hold. Oh wow what an idea ---- get into position before you make a call. Hernandez was robbed. The ref that made the call was on the back side of the match about 5 feet away. Funny it wasn't the ref standing over top of the boys that made the call. Yeah, he got robbed. Can you say Hommered.

I AGREE WITH FAN54

Richard S:

Once again, let me jump in with my mad rule book knowledge regarding

"the wrist still trapped, the call was a bad call by the mat official. The last I knew, the wrist is still attached to the arm, and therefore a part of the arm. By your own admission, the hold was a legal hold at the outset."

While the wrist may have still been trapped...

Rule 7, Section 1, article 5 states that:

"Other illegal holds include, but are not limited to:

d. any headlock in which the arms or hands are locked around the opponent's head without encircling an arm (elbow or above) or leg (except in the guillotine after near-fall criteria has been met);"

So, if Hernandez had a headlock with the WRIST encircled and hands locked, it is an illegal headlock and the match must be immediately stopped. See photos 43 and 48 in your rule book. That should clear thing up for you.

in this case i do most definatly agree with super duper mystery man.. Richard S, im quite sure that you're wrong... gotta have it locked above the elbow.

Thanks for the support. But there is nothing to agree with--my last two posts were word-for-word from the KSHAA 2002-2003 rule book. Hernandez had an illegal headlock, end of story.

End of story. Don't think so.
The arm inside of the headlock never left the headlock. I mean his shoulder was next to his ear. Just ask Frandin. He will tell you just how lucky he got when that whistle blew to stop the headlock.
He saved the team from a 4th place finish behind KMC - Hernandez' team. He won the match.
The JC team took 3rd place. - One half point ahead of KMC. What hero he is.
Hernandez had a GOOD,CLEAN and LEGAL headlock.
Not sure what all the fuss is about. Anybody that says anything different wasn't there.
This is one of those times when an official does make a difference. There was no good reason to stop that match.

Frandin wouldn't have been pinned anyways, even if the illegal headlock was called. He had been on his back for a fairly long time and the period was almost over (about 7 seconds left). So illegal or not, the match would have still continued on.