I forgot to make that point and I just saw it re-reading some of the posts. I am not coaching anymore and the one thing I miss more than anything and the thing that I loved the most about Wichita was seeing all those people that I have known, some for thirty five years or more that I never saw any other time. It was like drinking fine wine to see them again. That is the kind of friendships the kids are making right now. Shoot they should have a chance to meet as many people as they can in their experience.

Boy I never thought I would ever do this but I am going to stand up for the KSHSAA in that they run a fine meet in Wichita. I hate the barn they have it in and the people that work for that barn but Dale and all the workers and the organization of it is wonderful. I can't think of one thing besides the incessant parades that I don't like about the way they do business. It ann't easy to do and they do it like clockwork. NoOOOOOO offense to those workers they have a monumental task and they do it very well.

In defense of Coach Beims, he has coached at the 4A tourney for a couple of years and led Colby to the team title two years ago and was fourth as a team last year. He nows what it is like to wrestler there because he can ask his wrestlers that have been there (which is somewhere around 17 in the last two years).
I think he knows what it is like and he also knows how it is supposed to be for a wrestler because he was an undefeated state champ for Atwood in the early 90's and got to wrestler in the well-run Hays tourney.

I meant he got to Wrestle -----

I think the point everyone is trying to make is that there are pros and cons to everything. I can remember taking teams to the 6A state in Topeka and Junction City and they did a wonderful job but heck it was just like any other tourney. Going to a place where so much is happening is a big time deal and special in a way that is very hard to do if it is all in one place. I think there are good and bad points to both and I agree with the way they run it. That Dale Overtime was talking about was Dale Downing of Andover and he was great at running a tourney. My hat is off to him. I don't know if he is still doing it but he was marvelous at it.

I know running the 456A state would be a tough job and I don't want to just sit here and point fingers because I think it may be impossible to run this event well. I realize there are positives and negatives to every situation, but in the particular situation of 456A state, my opinion is that the negatives of the situation outweigh the positive aspects to an extent where I am in favor of splitting it up.

What is it about the way they run the tourney (not the building or the rudeness of the people that work for it) that you don't like. What would you like to see done differently or is badly done? Just wondering. Not trying to be argumentative just wondering what you would like to see done differently.

Westfahl, whether I wrestled in Wichita or not, I still like the Hays format much better. In Hays, they don't wrestle on ice, team scores are kept, weigh-ins are quicker & more efficient so wrestlers don't have to eat cold cereal on the cold floor, table workers "know" wrestling, cheerleaders cheer on matside and not just take up space, and the best wrestlers in the state are showcased on one mat in the finals.

Here is what the KWCA coaches will be voting on by March 4th for next year.

Option #1 - Leave the state tournament in the same sites with the same groupings.
Option #2 - Leave the groupings as they are, but seek different sites.
Option #3 - Change the groupings as well as seek different sites.
Option #4 - Seek individual sites for each classifciation's state tournament which may include high schools as host sites.

Again, my vote is #3

Article from the Salina Journal


Salina would be ideal as a state wrestling site

By CHRISTIAN D ORR
The Salina Journal
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The Kansas State High School Activities Association isn't ready to start talking about it yet, and people around Wichita don't seem to want to talk about it at all.

But there's a growing possibility that this will be the final year that Wichita serves as host for the state wrestling tournament for classes 6A, 5A and 4A.

My response is simple: Hallelujah.

My solution: Salina is here with open arms.

For several years, coaches, wrestlers and fans have grown increasingly tired of the Kansas Coliseum, its facilities and mostly the attitudes of the people there. It is chaos from the Thursday night before the tournament begins until the final team trophies are handed out and the winning teams hastily shooed out the door.

"Wichita is not hospitable toward the coaches, the fans and most importantly the wrestlers," said Colby coach Mitch Beims, who has said he would be in favor of the state tournament, at least for Class 4A, relocated to Salina's Bicentennial Center.

"I would love to see a 4A tournament at Salina. The Bicentennial Center is a good fit."

Tiffany Greene, Sports and Special Events Coordinator for the Salina Area Chamber of Commerce, said she is aware that changes for state wrestling venues is a possibility and she has talked with Rick Bowden of the Kansas State High School Activities Association about Salina possibly serving as a future host.

"We have let them know that we would welcome an opportunity to host a state championship here whether they keep it all together or they break it up," Greene said. "I think we do have a good facility and the community and volunteers to put it together.

"I know there is a lot of interest in wrestling around here."

There is little doubt that this area would support such an event with communities like Abilene, Clay Center and Concordia all sporting top-notch programs, Salina South continuing its 5A ascent and multiple others in the area that are simply wrestling fans.

The only question is whether the Bicentennial Center is large enough to serve as host to the three larger classes.

But under many of the current proposals, that may not even be an issue. Several coaches at the 4A level have expressed an interest in breaking away from the pack and having their own state tournament at their own site.

My response: Salina is here with open arms.

Another proposal would have Classes 4 and 5A continue to be at one site while Class 6A would break off on its own.

My response: Salina is here with open arms.

Kansas High School Activities Association director Gary Musselman said if the state does decide to change venues for the 2003-2004 school year, Salina would be an option. But at this point the KSHSAA's only focus is on this year's state tournaments.

"Are we looking very seriously at alternative opportunities to host the state tournament? I would say not any more seriously than we always look at other options and alternatives," Musselman said. "I think a lot of this talk has come up because this is the last year of our contract with the Kansas Coliseum."

Personally, I would love to see both the Class 3-2-1A tournament and the 4A tournament in Salina while Classes 5A and 6A wrestle at another site. But there is little chance that Class 3-2-1A would ever leave its home in Hays. The coaches love it in Hays and the people of Hays have done a fabulous job of running it.

The bottom line, however, is very few people want to see any of the tournaments return to Wichita.

"A lot of the coaches, myself included, are not very happy (in Wichita)," said Salina South coach Brent Lane, who is pushing a proposal to bring Classes 4A and 5A to Salina. "I don't know if we can do all three (4A, 5A and 6A) here, but 4A wants it here and I want (5A) here, too.

"I'd love to see it come this way."

I said it before and I'll say it again: Salina is here with open arms.

I agree with you about the cheerleaders and we have gone round and round about that over the years. Once in a great while there are varying degrees of knowledge at the tables. I don't think the state champions are diminished in any way by the format however. I have had a lot of kids win it and they were thrilled with their state championship. The fact that they don't show the team scores is a bad deal and that is 100% the fault of the facility people not wanting to do it. I know they want them to they just won't do it. I don't think that is the fault of the state or the people that run the tourney though. You make some good points but it is a lot more fun than it used to be going to state in Colby or Goodland in the heart of the League up there. I know why you guys liked that so much lol. I would have too.

1. Team scores not posted
2. Team scores not updated for coaches enough
3. Presentation of awards and the Parade are anti-climatic
4. Security staff is unfreindly
5. Hopitality is poor (not just the room, but just in general)
6. Facility is poor and most of the ones big enough for this in the state are.
7. The kids are overshadowed by '"the event"
8. Weigh-ins are a mess. Take forever (either they are poorly organized or there are just too many people)
9. Nine mats on floor and no room for anything else(cheerleaders/media/etc in the way)
10. Three state championship matches going on at once(again has to be that way due to numbers, but it is neat to have the entire arena watching 1 match like it would be if 4A was on its own)
I guess it just feels like one of those huge kids tournaments we remember as a kid where nobody knows what is going on or who is in charge.
Just my top ten of the top of my head.

You know except for the cheerleaders and the three finals mats it sounds a lot like the NCAA finals doesnt it? I am not saying it couldnt be better it certainly could, but in my opionion it is a bigger deal for the kids to wrestle there than it is when it is just one division in one place. How bout Topeka they could do all three. How about putting 4A in Salina and 5 and 6A in Topeka. Personally I like seeing all the studs from all the classes in one place. Some of them never get a chance to see each other wrestle.

When Dale was running it I never ever had a problem figuring out that he was in charge by the way lol. He was good at being in charge.

So we do agree that there are things that should be different. I agree also that winning a state title is not diminished in Wichita at all. That's got to be a great feeling anywhere. After coaching in Wichita for several years, I am fed up. I do not want state in Goodland for God's sake, but I am stubborn enough to vote to get out of Wichita if they are unwilling to change some of the things that need changed.

We totally agree about Wichita it sucks no doubt about it. I just think there are other answers besides throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I think they should put together a committee of coaches and let you guys have some input on it. They never wanted mine but maybe they would listen to some of you. Maybe you could suggest that at your regionals. The state is like a big old government and they dont listen if you arent right in front of them.

I do not believe any of us are wedded to the Kansas Coliseum. If KSHSAA is going to move it the first option should be to move it to a new arena - All Classes to a new arena. The solution to the congestion at a smaller arena/venue is to simply expand the tournament to a three day event and run sessions for each class. Everybody wins: Schools, Fans, Wrestlers, KSHSAA.

I believe the consensus so far, from the KC and Wichita areas, is we, as fans, enjoy watching all classes of teams whom we have competed against all year. Please consider that the Leagues here that stretch across multiple classes.

If the you are going to take a vote - the largest base of schools/fans should count for something. Add to that the fact the schools here are shifting classes yearly I am asking the KSHSAA to strongly consider keep the classes together for continuity. Find a new arena, fix the problems with Wichita, hold it in a cornfield in Leoti - but let us all burn cornstalks together.

I am going to ask several questions here, why in many of the proposed solutions to this, is it group the classes into two groups with the smaller group still having a larger number? The reasoning behind this is that the larger schools have larger teams and thus better competition. This simply is not true. There are 3A teams with as large of squad as most 6A or 5A teams. There are a few exceptions (Manhattan for one), but there are also a very high percentage of 6A teams that can't even field a full team. The logic needs to be changed.
As far as not wanting to dual the State Champs in 6A and 5A, I think it is ridiculous to say one classes State champs are better than another as a whole. Each class has stronger wieghts than any other, but also much weaker weights than anyother. It just depends on the individual and the year. From my years Wrestling in a 3-2-1A regional, compared to caoching at a 6A regional, there is no comparison. When has a 3-2-1A team or 4A team qualfied 14? If it has happened, it has not occured very often. It is not feasible to get 14 through a 16 man bracket. In the 97-98 season two 6A teams did so (Garden City and Manhattan). I have a hard time believing that either team placed 14 at any other tourney(although I am not certain) which means their regional was the weakest tournament they attended that year. This is not the way it should be.

Any thoughts?

I also forgot something. The Hays Coliseum is packed every year for 3-2-1A. I think one reason this is is because the Tournament is spectator friendly. The action is much faster, because you are not waiting for 3 mats to get done to start each new weight in the finals. Everyone is focused on one mat, so the atmosphere is much more intense. I think breaking up the Tourney's could actually increase attendance and possibly offset the cost of an increased # of venues.

I think everything should stay the same

OK here is my shot at this. Years ago when I wrestled, they had 4A and 321A both in Hays.It was a great experience for me! I have since coached in Hays (3A only), and in Witchita. I have also attended a 4A state tourny in Abilene.Of all the places I have coached or witnessed a state tourny I liked the 4A - 3A tourny in Hays the best. Why dont we put 4A - 321A in one place and 5A - 6A in another. This still leaves us with two sites and we still would get to see other great wrestlers from other classes!