What do you think contributed to Lansing going from 24th in 2004 to 6th in 2005?

A really committed group of kids and parents, strong kids program, good coaching and the change to 5A

I used to think I would want Chapman to go down to 3a based off of some of the guys I used to beat with relative ease at a lot of tournaments, but I realized if Chapman were to do well at state I would like them to go up to 5a...maybe if we get all of those military families moving in when the Big Red One comes back it can happen.

Bonner Springs went from 18th in 5a to 24th in 4a on the flip side of the 4 to 5 and 5 to 4 deal.

Lansing big push came from a very talented group all of the same approx. age from their feeder club the "Slammers". Aaron Ely from Leavenworth is also in that group. Just think if he went to Lansing as well.

Good feeder programs equal great HS clubs. Just ask Oak Park in Missouri. Think the competitors hasn't helped them?

The change to 5A helped some as well, but anytime you have 8-10 kids state placers all within 2-3 years of each other, you have a darn good start for a HS team.

They have everbody back and a very good 103 pounder that moved in as well. Look out.

SlamBam

It' fun to try to compare the classes but all it means is Lansing had a very good young team this year and they had a good state tournament. What do you think about Norton winning Newton. How about 5A Bishop Carroll finishing ahead of #1 Clay Center. How about #2 5A Turner beating Abilene, Goodland, Andale, Columbus, Santa Fe Trail, and St. Thomas at Basehor? How about St. Thomas beating Turner at Blue Valley NW? How about #2 6A Manhattan and Silver Lake finishing ahead of Clay and Ablilene at Beliot. Lansing finished right behind Abilene and Sante Fe at Baldwin. You just can't compare one tournament to another. Lansing returns there entire team next year. I wonder what class they will be in. If they return to 4A they would be an interesting comparison.

I don't think a return to 4a would be an interesting as some percieve, although they would bring great numbers to the state tournament simply based on the "weaker" regional area they are from in 4a.

Tournaments are too hard to tell who has the "Best Team". That would require a one on one dual(el). Lansing does have a good kids club program, but just because they have 8 or 9 kids placers join the team doesn't equal success, how many of them will be bunched up behind each other?

Also I believe that this supports the claim that 5A is the weakest class. Lansing goes from middle of the bottom of the pack (where Russell is too) in 4A to the top 10 in 5A where another team does just the opposite. That in itself should be enough to justify the statement.

Andrew Gossett of Buhler (but lives in HUTCH) has even told me after being on both sides of the coin, that 5A is considerably weaker than 4A, where he was a qualifier for state in 5A in the middle weights usually dominated by upperclassmen. Perhaps Andrew can elaborate on this a bit more but for now I am done.

Alex

Alex has a point....I was terrible (not that I improved a whole lot) as a fresh and soph and qualified for 5A state where I upset the number one seed or ranked guy. Buhler then dropped to 4A and I qualified for state my junior year barely squeeking through a stacked regional and then going 1-2 to some tough losses. This last year I won my regional and choked at state like a little girl (no offense to Jhris and others). I really do believe that although 5A has some awesome guys and some tough competitors ...4A is pretty thorough because of there being more schools that have an average amount of students.

5a - great collge material in the top 2 maybe 3 at state.

4a -great college material for the top 6-8 in a weight class at state plus all the guys that didn't make it to state because of full brackets.

Swayz,

From your comments, you infer that either 5a stinks or Lansing stinks. Neither is true. Or…you just like stirring up the board with the old 4a is better than 6a, and my thing is bigger than your thing. The reason Lansing moved from 24th to 6th place last season, is Lansing had a good team.

This year we may go 4a or stay at 5a. Regardless, we will be a contender as a top 3 team in any division. Here is our preseason line up.

103 - Dennis Wood (Sophomore) (Multiple kids state placer and state champ – Beat Sharky Slater this year at Kids State)

112 - Chance Thakston (Sophomore) (Returning HS state qualifier)

119 - Nick Flynn (Sophomore) (Multiple kids state qualifier & placer / Multiple FS & GR state champ / Team Kansas Member / Returning HS state placer)

125 - Brad Mock (Senior) (Multiple kids state qualifier / took a two year break and is hungry)

130 - Staurt Jones (Senior) (Multiple kids state qualifier / 2 X HS qualifier)

135 - Kyle Buhler (Junior) (Multiple kids state qualifier and placer / HS State qualifier / HS 4th Place)

140 - Sean Flynn (Senior) (Multiple kids state qualifier and placer / Multiple FS & GR State Champ / Team Kansas Member / 3 X HS State qualifier and placer)

145 - Kyle Grape (Junior) (Multiple kids state placer / 2 X H.S. state Placer - Returning HS state champion)

152 - Jeff Terrill (Senior) (Excellent wrestler / transfer from MO)

160 - Dennis Kessler (Senior) (Multiple Kids state qualifier / 3 X State qualifier)

171 - Lance Fink (Senior) (Returning state qualifier)

189 - Ryan Civil (Senior) (Multiple kids state qualifier/placer, 3 X HS state qualifier), Returning 4th Place)

215 - Logan Ryan (Senior) (State qualifier)

Hvy - Michael Bohin (Sophmore) While Mike stuggled at HVY WGT last year a 198lbs. Big Mike now is 245lbs and strong as an OX.

So my point Swayz is-- sometimes teams just get better.

Now that I think about this, you kind of piss me with your inference that we just got lucky by moving to 5a. The hours my teammates and I spend in the gym, the trips around the country to tournaments and camps, the dedication of numerous coaches around Leavenworth county, the efforts of parents and fans, for some “Adult” that is still living his 4a / 5a fantasy to tell me my team sucks, well…sucks.

So here what we are going to do about it.

A shout out to all Lansing Wrestlers. Stay out of trouble, keep your grades up, and don’t get hurt in football. Would love to see this preseason lineup come true.

For all those not playing a fall sport, I will be training at least twice a week. Lets get together when schools starts and do some preseason workout (My house, Fort Leavenworth, a freaking corn field). Lets do some damage at the Fall Brawl and at Denver before the season strats.

Sean Flynn.

Sean-

You are good and your team maybe next year, but don't just bag on Swayz. There were others such as myself that agreed with what he said. He wasn't the only one and I will stand by it. Andrew Gossett provided some deep insight on the depth and strength of the 4A vs. 5A argument. I believe that first hand repsonses help justify the cause. I do find it very odd that a middle of the pack 4A team jumps to top 10 in 5A. Also just because someone was a kid's placer in kid's club doesn't mean that it equates to a great high school career. Just my $.02 worth and it's not worth a thing, but take it for what it's worth and I know you don't agree but that's part of this forum is for debate....

Alex Ryan (Russell, KS)

p.s. I don't mean to stir things up between us I am just voicing my thoughts.

You can make a agrument that Lansing would have a tougher go in 4a, but you can't discount they have a good team and they are due to get better and the Fr, So's become Jr's and Sr's. The majority of their gains were made by a great group guys getting older and better.

You can't compare year to year. Swayz's comment about Bonner dropping 20 spots or so going from 5a-4a has the same flaws. They lost Middleton and other points. They weren't the same team they would have placed lower in 5a as well.

As kids are different and guys graduate you can't compare a team from one year to the same team the following year. Unless like Lansing this year they have everybody back. But even then competition graduates, etc, etc.

You can beat the argument to death that 4a is tougher than 5a. I would generally agree with you, but give Lansing some credit. They have a badass team.

Just my thoughts,

24/7

All,

I have a question.....what purpose does this specific topic serve? The idea of looking at the concept of schools going from on class to another in general may have some interesting points but to single out a program/school doesn't do anyone good except hurt feelings.

Here's what I've learned from the threads so far...

1. There are some adults that have some opinions about schools achieving or not achieving success due to movement from on class to another. Great, value the opinions but really who cares? There are too many variables to really validate the concept.

2. The only real tangible accomplishment of this thread has been to disgruntle the wrestlers and other people involved in the Lansing program. What good has that served?

Bottomline: Lansing has had success due to a variety of reasons. The main reason is that they have a group of very dedicated, hard working, young athletes that should be commended for their accomplishments regardless of what class the athletic/education system dicatates that they have to compete in. Let's give them credit for their hard work and not belittle due to a circular argument that serves no purpose. They are the ones who are going to carry on the wrestling mantra and pass it on to future generations...no us old "has beens".

PS- Sean Flynn, tell your dad to call. If you want to work out I will drill with you, Nick, Ryan, and whoever else wants to. We have mats in Harney Gym. Let me know.

Shawn Budke

I wasn't trying to knock Lansing. I'm dogging the 5a/6a system. It's pathetic that 5a and 6a schools can't field a full line up at regionals. One year a 6a regional had 5 guys in the bracket..meaning a guy didn't have to win a single match to take 4th to go to state! SAD!

At least give some credibility to qualifying back to 5a/6a by having round robin if 5 or less guys at regionals so you have to win a match to go to state and not flop into it!

Swayz,

My earlier comment was not intended to focus on one individual. My intent was to provide a general observation. My apologies if it didn't come across that way.

Personally, from what I have seen of your posts on this forum I believe that you would not intentionally post something that would negatively impact the kids.

Not sure if that came out right....just wanted you to know it wasn't intended specifically for you and didn't want to get into a "forum" grudge match. I respect your views.

Shawn

If you notice the guys that "flop in" are beat out quickly. Some teams that placed high at Newton or some trnys like that had a good over all team. The people you knew were gonna be in the finals were in the finals. Such as Cornejo, Baldridge etc. Theu guys that are good win all the time! The top 2 or 3 like you say that can go to DI in 5A can Still compete as you put the 5 or 6 in 4A. When you see the kids programs or even this summer wrestling, where were most of the top placers from?

Okay this might be off topic in a way, but it is my example. The San Diego Chargers 2004 was a great year for them. Eli Manning didn't want to go there after there very bad 2003 season. If they would have moved to the NFC everyone would have said how it is because the NFC sucks even if the played the same schedule. All it was, was a better team. They play both NFC and AFC teams just like many wrestle 6A 5A 4A etc. Doesn't matter. Get over it

TCarmona-

5/6A needs work or needs to be combined. 8 man regionals that cannot even field a full bracket? There is something that needs to be changed. I like Swayz's idea of doing a round robin instead of a bracket where 1 guy automatically gets to bye into 3rd & 4th. Just my $.02

Alex

It's Mr. T to you! I just think to many people piss and mone about not having full brackets. I can see you getting upset about one guy only winning one match. It happens in kids all the time. I had seen some kids at the Anover Central Dist II trny that had a three man bracket. It was a round robin and they made it all the way to state and placed beating out some kids that placed in a great big regional. Like Swayz woman once told him. "Size doesn't matter. It's the quality of the action!"