Coaches,

I am faxing you the current 5A rankings this morning.

Please note that I did not rank anyone who has not sent me any information. I will be on the look out for results to place individuals back in the rankings. If you have not sent me a lineup already, please e-mail or fax it to me. If you want to send a lineup but don't want it on the internet, just say so. Thanks to those that sent info already. I appreciate it.

A note on team rankings. This has always been a tough issue for me. Thanks to Jamie Finkeldei at Bishop Carroll we have come up with a way to do it numerically that works out. This takes into consideration returning points from last years state tournament and ranking, returning number of qualifiers and rank, and finally, points based off of individual rankings and rank. The current team rankings are based on that. If you have any questions or comments please let me know.

As soon as I get some more lineups and information I will be sending out top 10's in each weight. Good luck to you as you start the season and please remember to send in some information to help me with rankings.

Hey, don't forget me. I'll be more than happy to post rankings as free information at my place.

This is to save me a million e-mails and answer a few questions. There are individuals that deserve to be ranked but are not because I have not recieved a lineup from their coach yet. I will be on the lookout for results so if you have any I would greatly appreciate it. Please encourage your coach to send in information.

Coaches, if you have an e-mail address and don't recieve info from me, please send me a note. My e-mail is below.

Please help me out with information. Rankings take alot of my personal time. If you sent me information and results that would help greatly. Thanks to the coaches that send me information---especially Brian Shelton of Valley Center who used to keep things top secret until I dug and dug.

Who says what I sent you was right?

Shelton

You said you didn't rank anyone that didn't send you any information. Well you did rank wrestlers from Ark City & Wichita West.

Received some brief information on both of those. Thanks.

Dear Coach Lane:

First, allow me to thank you and all who assisted in the rankings. As you well know, compiling the rankings takes considerable time from all the volunteers involved.

Second, why attempt to due the rankings with not all information available?

Would it not be more accurate to provide a ranking after weight certification?

I know many of the wrestlers on your team, and they have been taught by Mr. Stein and yourself not to put forth a half a**ed effort!

Why go to the time and effort to publish rankings you know are inaccurate, and incomplete?

Lastly, do you know where Bo is assistant coaching?

You have got to be kidding Mr. Sayler,

First, do not try to veil your insults of Coach Lane, with a compliment at the begining.

Second, why put out rankings? Do you not read how often people ask about the rankings? They have been asking since the day after state last year. You want us to wait until after Certification January 15 to put out the rankings? You would probably be first first one complaining that no one has posted rankings yet.

Third, why post with only partial information? I admit it would be better to have all the information, but if the coaches don't provide any how is Coach Lane suppose to do the rankings? If parents, coaches, and wrestlers see that their kids are not ranked maybe that will inspire the coaches to spend the three minutes it takes to email Coach Lane. He has no other way to get coaches to respond, why should everyone be punished because a few coaches can't turn their stuff in?

Fourth, this is a pre-season ranking. Coach Lane has worked hard to put the people THAT HE KNOWS ABOUT at the weight they are going to wrestle this year. His other option is put put everyone at the weight they wrestled last year and they listen to you complain that they are not accurate because doesn't he know people grow?

Finally, we all know rankings do not correctly predict what happens at state. Therefore, by definition, rankings are a snapshot in time of what the ranker beleives will happen at state based on the information he has at the moment he does it. We all know it could change the next day because of any number of variables. So Mr. Lane has produced exactly what he has VOLUNTEERED to do - give a predicition of what would happen based on what information he has AT THAT TIME.

Yes the rankings will change and yes they will get better as the year progresses but do not complain about what Coach Lane has produced thus far.

Coach Finkeldei
Bishop Carroll High School

Thanks Fink. Well Said.

Mr. Sayler,

I am very dissapointed in your calling my efforts half **sed. Apparently you have no idea how much effort went into those rankings. Although it appears as if little work was done, that could not be any further from the truth. I have an excel file with as many wrestlers in 5A that I can possibly get. I excluded wrestlers from the rankings whose coaches I had not recieved information, or who I could not gather information on. I did recieve a couple early season preview type things. (Wichita West and Ark City). I excluded those wrestlers for two reasons. First and foremost, I don't know what weight to rank the kids at because as you may know, they grow from season to season. I suppose I could take an educated guess but then how could I justify that. Secondly, not all kids on my list (which comes from last year) are even out for wrestling or on the season preview. I'll give you two examples of individuals that should be ranked but are to the best of my knowledge not even wrestling this year. They are Trey Rein of Great Bend and Adam Monks of Blue Valley Stillwel. I don't know why but I do not that to include them in the rankings would be a mistake on my part. That is what you get when you just guess. I recieved information from both of those young mens coaches and I avoided this situation. I am certain there are more than just two of those situations in the state. I can imagine you might understand why.

Why go through the time to publish ranking that are inaccurate and incomplete? My thoughts on this is exactly what Jamie said. It will cause people to discuss and I will hopefully get a little more cooperation from coaches etc... At the very least I will get some information. Believe me, those indivudals that placed at the state tournament last year and that should be ranked are on my list. I was not willing to publish a list that haphazardly guessed where individuals might be.

Finally, Bo is coaching in Oklahoma (High School) while he is student teaching.

Dear Coach Lane and Finkeldei:

It appears I hit a nerve with the defensive attack mode you both went into.

An example to prove how little value one can place in these early rankings.

I will go out on a limb and assume that Coach Finkeldei knows who is wrestling at what weights for his own team, and knows the differance between the McDonald brothers. Ranked at 140 lbs. from Bishop Carroll is Tom McDonald. Assuming the Valley Center results are correct as posted, this past weekend Tom McDonald wrestled at 125 lbs. and his results were 3 wins and 2 losses. Tom's brother Tim, unranked, wrestled at 152 lbs. and had 1 win and 4 losses. Tim's win was by way of an open weight. Carroll's 3rd ranked 160 lb. wrestler had 3 wins and 2 losses, with one of the wins an open, therefore going .500 percent for the day.

Coach Lane states: "Believe me, those indivudals that placed at the state tournament last year and that should be ranked are on my list. I was not willing to publish a list that haphazardly guessed where individuals might be." can easily be controverted. Where is the former State Champion and 3rd place medal winner last year from Winfield? Are you saying he is unworthy of a ranking, or that you did not know what weight classification to place him in? Where are the three (3), medalists from Kapaun Mount Carmel on the list?

Finally, I have an Excel spreadsheet with all of last years state qualifiers, and in little less than an hour, with the use of data sorting tools incorporated in the software, was able to determine the returning state medalists and rankings based on last years results, much like your rankings, I do not know the exact weight each will be competing at.

Please, NO reply is necessary as this reply is not meant to provoke hostility or discussion, only for rebuttal purposes to your previous statements.

I am done with the subject matter!

Richard,

You just don't get it do you.

And as far as the McDonald brothers goes, what I am not allowed to make a mistake?

I'm fired, your hired.

Obviously Mr. Salyer doesn't allow anyone to make mistakes...hope I'm not around when the lightning hits

I, and I think many others, appreciate and enjoy your rankings. It gives the wrestlers motivation to try to outrank another. I guess Mr. Salyer believes rankings shouldn't be put out unless they can be guaranteed accurate, in which case they wouldn't exist. Anyone who's been around wrestling for more than a season knows that there are a lot of unknowns early on, such as weights, injuries, freshmen, etc. and anyone can pop up and upset the rankings, which is part of the excitement of it.

By the way, how often are they updated and on what basis?

Usually they are updated every 2 weeks or so, but don't quote me on that. I imagine I will come out with 1 more haphazardly organized rankings to which there will be much criticism and laughter. "Boy that Coach Lane is an idiot." I can already hear it. And the rankings are based primarily on the state tournament from last year and who has wrestled at what weight so far. Last weekend gave me alot of information.

KC MOM is right. Mr.Lane, If people are going to complain about rankings u should just throw people on there that u think deserve to be on there and let them duke it out to see who is the best. Ranks are a little overrated and it is too early in the game to even have them out. But I guess the demand is bigger than the supply huh Mr Lane?

Anybody that thinks Coach Lane's rankings are wrong are partially right...and here's why:

The 1st poll should be team wise based on returning place points, if you take that into consideration, then Salina South should be #1 and they are coached by none other than Coach Lane...the fact that Sal South returns 112.5pt and Turner who is #1 returns only 91.0 pts tells me that coach Lane is being fair to everyone but his own team....get off his back, Coach Lane would give the shirt off his back to help ensure that the polls are correct...he's a stand up guy and if you have a beef with him you may need to evaluate your measley life.

Salyer: (I once would have called you MR. SALYER, ESQ)

I once had a great respect for you – no more – forever – you are a Garker
Why don’t you handle the rankings? Better yet, why don’t you take control of the Forum?
After all you are God – oh I meant good

Lane is a Stud – Salyer is dud.

Uhoh, Mr. Lane. We have a man-crush brewing.

While I have criticized Brent Lane on the forum before, and undoubtedly will do again, I really do respect that he, and all the other rankers, put time and effort into their rankings. If anything, we should all be livid that Prant Garker was not ranked in the preseason rankings. Shame on you, Richard Fergola. Shame on you.

A big thanks is in order to KCWrestersMom, whom we can always count on when we need a voice of reason. Thanks for providing the necessary estrogen/compliments on our board.

Is anyone else creeped out that RichardDSalyer is keeping a spreadsheet with all high school boys wrestlers? Anyone? Because I sure am.

Prant: You may have noticed that I fixed the way you spelled my name on your post. No need to thank me. I don't mind the criticism, I don't mind the comments or flattery, however, I do mind having my name twisted the way you like to twist it. I was once told that it is my name and no one else can have it. Do me a favor and please refrain from your twisting, thanks.

Also, I do appreciate the support from the folks that like to see the rankings. I must admit the rankings are very far off from what they should be right now. I know that Mr. Sayler has a right to his opinion and I think that he possibly thinks I was slighting some kids ih his area in some way. I think that jumping all over me about it was not appropriate. I sometimes take the criticism somewhat personal because of the amount of time to which I devout to the rankings. Put yourself in my shoes and try to rank kids that you don't know what weight they are, what team they are on (in some cases) or if they are even out for their wrestling team (in some cases) and see how good your rankings are. I would bet you couldn't do a better job. You have my word on this though, the rankings will get better, please be patient (with all of us.)

Rankings are tough to do-- because people tend to not play fair and beat people they shouldn't.
Mr. Lane's method depends on other coaches feedback for its completeness, not be complete until after the first couple of tournaments, duals, etc. when things begin to come into focus. Mr. Salyers system is great from last year's point of view, but this year will show some unexpectedly improved wrestlers due to camps, summer wrestling, etc., and some wieght changes. This reminds me a lot of the BCS vs. coaches polls in the ncaa (football) brewhaha....
both systems have some strengths, and if the two could be combined somehow, perhaps a finer tuned picture would emerge. Until then, I reckon all of us in the peanut gallery will just hide and watch. Ease up on Mr. Salyer-- the amount of time he contributes to this sport and the compilation of data exhibits to me a very sincere love of this sport and a desire to be knowlegeable about it. Even if he may have a tendency to criticize grammer, spelling, wandering from the posted topic, he is no less a fan than any of the rest of us, and we all have thin skin. ok, I'm done, you may begin constructing my gallows now.