In my mind it is a question of character. What decisions do we make if we figure, we won't get caught?

I find it a bit cavalier to think a rule breaker, a law breaker, a persons who "fudges" a bit with their taxes; thinks they will get caught! But when we outline the potential punishments at least one can make an informed decision.

The consequences of violating the Shawnee Mission district policy are so severe that I believe the decision to not drink is made by most dedicated student athletes way before they are offered a drink or attend a party. As LancerM said, they choose to avoid any friends or parties where they could be at risk. This policy is so effective that years later, we still discuss Ryan Lilja, or the one or two athletes we know who have been dismissed from a team over the years for violating the policy. They serve as a warning for other student athletes for years to come.

Another thing to keep in mind is the emphasis in Johnson County by the law-enforcement authorities to catch and punish under-age drinking, including those adults who allow it. I believe they have a task force that actively seeks out teen parties through blogs, gossip, overheard conversations and by patrolling on Friday/Saturday nights looking for lots of cars in a neighborhood. Parents who host these parties or have even just been absent have been charged. Not sure of the outcome, but Johnson County is serious about catching teens who are drinking.

i do applaud the shawnee mission school district for sticking to their policy regardless of who is involved. i suppose their is no way to prove this, but i just don't believe it really prevents kids from drinking. i'm wondering if anyone has anonymous surveys from shawnee mission students and a couple other school districts to see if we have much of a difference. lots of schools give these types of surveys out so i'm sure they exist, unfortunately we probably cannot get our hands on the data. i suppose all policies are fair so long as they are presented before the season and the policy is kept. so i'm not arguing that whether or not the shawnee mission policy is fair, just whether or not its the absolute best for kids. it seems most of you are not in agreement with me so perhaps you are right. i really wish we had the data to compare between school districts, even if it didn't support me it would be interesting and i suppose i could probably be convinced the other way if it did not support me. in the end i think we're all on the same page in that we want to see less kids drink, do whats best for kids, and see our athletes on field/mat/court competing and following the rules away from the place of competition. i think i've made my points on this topic so unless something completely knew is presented i'll probably shut up about it. about everyone who posted on here made a lot of good points, good discussion, hopefully no incidents will come up to make a discussion like this seem nessasary the rest of wrestling season.

Jumpin Jack flash

Well, I can see you don’t know much about the role of educators today. Did you realize that if I know of a function where alcohol is being served to minors and I don’t report it. I can be held responsible for any injuries. Did you also realize that we are bound by law to report any possible abuse cases. Yes, schools play many different roles today and we as educators don’t have a choice in the matter. Before you chastise educators try living the life of one. It isn’t that easy. We get pretty close to the kids we work with whether they are athletes or not. We probably know the kids better than their probation officers and social workers. Hell, we probably know them better than some of their parents do.

I haven’t been following this topic too closely, but as an educator/coach I felt compelled to address a couple of the comments made on some of the posts. Fist off the difference between a coach/teacher using alcohol or tobacco and a student/athlete is pretty clear. It is called being an adult of legal age to do so. No, educators shouldn’t use it in school, but I didn’t think that was the topic that was originally opened for discussion.

Stopping thinking kids are always so innocent because they are not. The days of Leave it to Beaver are gone forever unfortunately. Our society has become so protective over the possible violation of student rights that our schools have to tip toe when dealing with discipline. Let them stand on their own two feet and learn the lessons of life so they have a chance later on down the road.

Society has become so critical of schools in the last two decades that it is no wonder why people have chose not to pursue a career in education. In my opinion society needs to take a long look in the mirror and ask whose at fault for the behavior of kids today. I think you will find that answer is staring back at us in the mirror. My father raised his kids by an almost forgotten adage that he grew up with. “Spare the rod, spoil the child”. It did me some good to be painfully reminded who was actually in charge of my life. Today were so concerned with hurting the self-esteem of children. Why? They haven’t accomplished anything yet to build that self-esteem. Were so worried about building champions and winning titles that we’ve lost sight of our true job. Building people.

I’m done ranting.

Coach Neil, that is a very good post. You are so right that our job as parents, your job as an educator/coach and even the student wrestlers is not to build champions but to build people. That is so true. I need to print out that last paragraph of your post and hang it up somewhere.

It reminds me of something my boss told me that he had read in a book about John Wooden. Mr. Wooden said something to the effect that there are some players that want to be characters when his main goal for them was to build character. I was reminded of that when reading your last two sentences about us being so concerned about building champions and winning titles that we've lost sight of what should be our true job of building people.

I do not think your were ranting. I just think you were sharing some wisdom with us. Thank you for posting and sharing your wisdom and experience on this topic.

The dangers of teenage drinking can be very severe and that is why I believe this Shawnee Mission zero tolerance is a good policy and one that should be seriously considered by the KSHSAA for all Kansas schools. I did a search on MSN to see what I could find on articles that address the dangers of teenage drinking. This is one of many that came up on the search from the Center for Science in the Public Interest website.

http://www.cspinet.org/booze/alcyouth.html

Young People and Alcohol


UNDERAGE DRINKING IS WIDESPREAD IN THE U.S...

More than 10 million current drinkers in the United States are between the ages of 12-20. Of these young drinkers, 20% engage in binge drinking and 6% are heavy drinkers.[1]

On average, young people begin drinking at 13.1 years of age.[2]

By the time they are high school seniors, more than 80% have used alcohol and approximately 62% have been drunk.[3]

Girls are beginning to drink at younger ages. In the 1960s, 7% of 10- to 14-year-old females used alcohol; by the early 1990's, that figure had risen to 31%.[4]

Due to heavy or binge drinking, nearly one out of every five teenagers (16%) has experienced "black outs," after which they could not remember what happened the previous evening. [5]

Young people have easy access to alcohol. In alcohol purchase attempts made by researchers across the U.S., buyers who appeared to be underage were able to purchase alcohol with no questions asked at least 50% of the time. [6]

AND THE CONSEQUENCES ARE DEVASTATING...

Alcohol is a factor in the four leading causes of death among persons ages 10 to 24: (1) motor-vehicle crashes, (2) unintentional injuries, (3) homicide, and (4) suicide. [7]

Young people who begin drinking before age 15 are four times more likely to develop alcohol dependence than those who begin drinking at age 21. [8]

More than 67% of young people who start drinking before the age of 15 will try an illicit drug. Children who drink are 7.5 times more likely to use any illicit drug, more than 22 times more likely to use marijuana, and 50 times more likely to use cocaine than children who never drank. [91

Teens under 15 who have ever consumed alcohol are twice as likely to have sex as those who have not. Nearly 4 in 10 (39%) sexually active teens who use alcohol have had sexual intercourse with four or more individuals. [10]

Underage drinking costs Americans nearly $53 billion annually. If this cost were shared equally by each congressional district, the amount would total more than $120 million per district. [11]

Researchers estimate that alcohol use is implicated in one to two-thirds of sexual assault and acquaintance or "date" rape cases among teens and college students. [12]

In 1999, 21% of 15- to 20-year-old drivers who were killed in crashes were intoxicated. [13]


REFERENCES
1. Summary of Findings from the 1999 National Household Survey on Drug Abuse, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, August 2000.
2. National Household Survey on Drug Abuse: Main Findings 1998, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services.
3. Monitoring the Future Study, University of Michigan, 2000.
4. National Household Survey on Drug Abuse, Substance Abuse Among Women in the U.S. United States Department of Health and Human Services, 1996.
5. Summary Findings American Academy of Pediatrics Survey: Teen Alcohol Consumption, American Academy of Pediatrics, September 1998.
6. Wagenaar, Alexander C., "Alcohol Compliance Checks: A Procedures Manual for Enforcing Age-of-Sale Laws," University of Minnesota Alcohol Epidemiology Program, May, 2000, p 6.
7. Kann, L., et al. (2000). Youth Risk Behavior Surveillance -- United States, 1999. Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, vol. 49(SS05): 1-96.
8. Grant, B.F., & Dawson, D. A. (1997). Age at Onset of Alcohol Use and its Association with DSM-IV Alcohol Abuse and Dependence: Results from the National Longitudinal Alcohol Epidemiologic Survey. Journal of Substance Abuse, vol. 9, p. 103-110.
9. Cigarettes, Alcohol, Marijuana: Gateways to Illicit Drug Use, Center on Addiction and Substance Abuse, Columbia University, 1994.
10. Dangerous Liaisons: Substance Abuse and Sex, Center on Addiction and Substance Abuse, Columbia University, 1999.
11. Costs of Underage Drinking, Pacific Institute for Research and Evaluation, 1999.
12. Youth and Alcohol: Dangerous and Deadly Consequences, Office of the Inspector General, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, 1992.
13. Traffic Safety Facts 1999, National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.

May 2001

Mr. Nowak,
those statistics are chilling. i'd just like to clarify one more time that i am not arguing the seriousness of the issue, but rather what i feel is the best way to handle it in the best interest of kids.

originally posted by coach neil:

Jumpin Jack flash

Well, I can see you don’t know much about the role of educators today. Did you realize that if I know of a function where alcohol is being served to minors and I don’t report it. I can be held responsible for any injuries. Did you also realize that we are bound by law to report any possible abuse cases. Yes, schools play many different roles today and we as educators don’t have a choice in the matter. Before you chastise educators try living the life of one. It isn’t that easy.

coach neil,

I think you would be surprised how much I do know about educators and the roles they have to play these days. I do realize they have to wear many hats and it is sad and that is one of the points I was trying to make. And by no means was I chastising educators, if I came across that way I apologize. I do however think some educators spend TOO MUCH time trying to figure out what the HIGH SCHOOL KIDS are doing this weekend. I know in our shcool system, as a very knowledgeable church going lady that works for our school system told me, some of our educators see our kids as guilty until proven innocent.

wrestle007,

I do realize that just because you are not in support of the Shawnee Missions zero tolerance policy that doesn't mean that you are saying that teenage drinking is not a serious matter. I know you realize how serious a problem it is. You are just saying that you do not believe the Shawnee Mission solution is the best way to deal with it. I think a lot of people, who are not posting, share that belief with you. I myself had that opinion that it was too severe of a punishment for a first offense, when it first was adopted and subsequently applied in the Ryan Lilja incident several years ago. I have recently become a supporter of the Shawnee Mission zero tolerance policy after following the Derby incident and the ensuing discussion on it on this forum. I started thinking about it more and looking more into the dangers of teenage drinking. I have come to believe that the dangers of teenage drinking are severe enough that the zero tolerance policy of Shawnee Mission is warranted. This is what I believe is ultimately in the best interests of our young people.

In Fort Scott your first offence for drinking, Your off the team. Bob Campbell did this with the 2002 and 2003 players that were on the State team. These were juniors and the next year two other juniors tried and failed . I think if you can save a whole and just lose one you have done a greater deed for the team. As the saying goes, " NO ONE IS BIGGER THAN THE TEAM "

At Neodesha the policy is two weeks of competition whether you are in season or not in season. If you are a wrestler and get caught during football season and don't play football, you are out the first two weeks of competition in wrestling. On the second offense you are out for a full year. You do have the option of going through counseling over the summer and being reinstated the following fall. If you get caught in the spring you are only out one season but if your second one is in the fall you are out the rest of the year. I guess if you get caught a second time that early in the year you have bigger problems then not playing sports. We went to two weeks verses 3 thinking kids would confess quicker. Some tell the truth and they are punished the ones who lie get away with it.
I don't buy into that double standard about what adults do or don't do. If a teacher/coach is caught drinking, chewing whatever with students or while supervising students they should probably go through due process and be fired but on their own time their business. If they get in a car then if they get nabbed by the law due process and they should be fired or whatever. 21 is the law for more then just a magic age, people under that age are still developing brain pathways, they are less experienced drivers, judgement isn't the best. They don't always make the best choices sober let alone drunk, neither do adults but they are legally responsible for their choices. I try not to drink during season, I don't drink in front of my children but I'm not going to say it's a double standard if others do. I just think a lot of people work hard to help our children stay drug and alcohol free why would I blow it but being a bad example.

I have been reading this thread for awhile with interest as 2 wrestlers in a nearby school were kick off the team for drinking some time back. I thought it was a very sever punishment. Remember these are kids. A year or so ago a study came out saying the brain passages that deal with immediate thinking do not fully form until we are in our mid-20's. As such, kids are going to make mistakes. With that said, punishment is necessary to make sure they know it is serious. Kansas loses way too many teenage boys to drinking and driving. But what is the right punishment. I think we need to remember we also make mistakes. Do those of you advocating harsh punishment ever speed with your kids in your car? All I am saying is rules need to be reasonable and TRULY have the best interest of the kids in mind. Kicking some kids off the team might wake some up, but for those who are really only trying in school for the sport, I am not sure. Guess I am glad I am not making these decisions. We should all be careful about judging others. And, finally, did the last post advocate firing a teacher who chews after work while around students? I sure hope not, with the time coaches put in and having the school and every parent in the district watch their every step, why would anyone coach.

Like several others I have been lookin at these threads and honestly I'm in disbelief. As many of you know I coach at Schlagle High School and if you was to walk through the hallways at Schlagle and poll the students on what would happen to a student if they were caught drinking during athletes they would ALL mockingly say your would get 10 days and a hearing. That's 10 days out of school suspension and a hearing on weather or not you even deserve to return.

But then again the numbers of fights that happen at Schlagle are also very rare because they are also an automatic 5-10 days of out of school suspension regardless of fault or the situation. The best part about it is that is ALL known information and what I call common knowledge. Some kids have even become creative "meet me at the park down the street after school" because they didnt want to get kicked out of school for 2 weeks.

I like many of you think that kickin a kid out of school for 2 weeks is a bit extreme HOWEVER, someone fighting is still a choice that each of the students made as proven by the lack of the number of fights that happen at the high school.

Maybe high school students dont make the best choices. But ALL kids know right from wrong and are able to reason. They have to know that after ever decision they make a consequence will happen. There are good consequences and bad ones but something will happen after every choice and decision that is made.

I personally dont smoke nor drink and that is my preference. I never pretend to be able to control what anyone do when they are not in my presence but I tell them this. If you guys love wrestling the way I do and if you value being a member of this team then you wouldnt never even think about smoking or drinking anytime you are in my presence. This would result in a dismissal from the team with zero chance of returning EVER. Not only is it disrespectful to me but it could cost me my job and its not healthy for the student athletes themselves.

There is no suprises as this is somethin we talk about with the student athletes, with their parents at parent meeting and it what I consider common knowledge.

So know you know the rule, do you want to break it and face the consequences.

I dont pretend that there are kids that dont drink or smoke but they will respect me and understand my stance on the issue. When I was in high school (I attended Schlagle) I have lost a friend due to drinking and driving. How much more serious do it get past death. I tell them all the time. Dont try to grow up faster than you have to. When you get of age drinking and smokin and other things will be your choice. Enjoy your youth and the experiences you have in high school will last a life time.

Sorry if its choppy