Here's a link to a study done a few years ago in the Midwest.

http://www.theguillotine.com/mwca/weightstudy.pdf

Can one of you KC metro area people please go by Nowak's house and give Vince a sedative? I have a feeling he's going to need it after reading this thread!

From an April 2007 Star Tribune:

http://www.startribune.com/526/story/1142521.html


The Minnesota State High School League's athletic directors advisory committee on Tuesday reviewed a proposal that would reduce the number of wrestling weight classes from 14 to 12 next season to help struggling small programs. The ADs voted for the recommendation, which will be an action item when the league's board meets next on June 11.

This is an excerpt from the Minn/St. Paul newspaper just last month.

Check with Richard Salyer as to the accuracy of this post.

sportsfan02, thank you the KC wrestling community has rushed to my aid. I think I will make it. Whew!

Actually, I have recently been on the mat.com and already knew of this, since it has been a topic on there. I posted this on the topic on the Mat.com:

I really think it would be better for high school wrestling participation to keep the weight classes at 14 but to adjust them as I have suggested in the other topic I introduced on Should there be more weight classes for wrestlers over 160. I suggested these weight classes: 108, 115, 122, 129, 136, 143, 150, 158, 167, 178, 190, 210, 230 and 285. Kids are getting bigger. It will bring more football players and their fans into the stands. It should help cut down on excessive weight cutting and instead encourage wrestlers to get bigger and stronger. This would too would help wrestling's image with the general public.

The reason I had got on the Mat.com recently was to introduce the topic: Should there be more weight classes for wrestlers over 160.

sportsfan02,

If they go to 12 weight classes and lower 215 to 210, it is not going to personally change anything for myself or my son. Jacob wrestled as a sophomore last year at 285 and he weighed a little under 220 about the whole time (he weighed in at 217 at regional). Jacob likes wrestling heavyweight even though last year was his first year at it. He weighs around 225 now and he wants to weigh around 240 to 245 for football and wrestling next year. I don't know if he will get that high but that is his goal and he is truly committed to the 285 weight class next year. So it really would not make a difference for Jacob or myself. It would not even really make a difference for Jacob if they raised the weights to have a 150, 158, 167. 178, 190, 210, 230 and 285 for heavier kids as I have proposed because like I said he wants to weigh 240-245 and we have a junior coming back for his senior season next season who would be the 230 in that scenario and I believe under our current weight class system that returning junior will be our 215 next season and Jacob will try to win the 285 spot again next year.

The only way it means anything to me is that I personally want to see wrestling grow. I hate seeing all these colleges without wrestling programs. I believe the only way this trend will reverese will either be from legislation which is unlikely to happen in my opinion or from the general growth of popularity in wrestling. Is this a good thing for wrestling's growth to cut the weights down to 12 from 14? I tend to think not. I think it would be better to try raising the weight classes as I have suggested and I think this will make it easier to fill more weights for teams. That seems to be one of the main selling points of the plan to go to 12 since many schools are having trouble filling all their spots and it is evidently not just at the lower and higher end of the weight classes. These supporters say it is bad for wrestling's image having all these forfeits at duals.

To me the worst thing for wrestling's image is excessive weight cutting which I believe can be a product of too low of weight classes and too small of a differential in a number of our weight classes (only 5 pound differentials in the middle weight classes). I have had a lot of people over the last ten years tell me that they are just not interested in having their child wrestle because they saw what a brother or friend went thru losing a lot of weight to meet a lower weight class. I believe the general public still has this image of wrestling.

I believe raising the weight classes to what I am proposing will help get more participation in wrestling because it will make it more attractive for football players and their coaches and give juniors and seniors more opportunities to find a weight class. I really think that football players are a natural for wrestling and that the two sports complement each other. I believe there are a lot of very athletic football players over 160 who are not giving wrestling a try and wrestling needs to do more to recruit them into our sport. There are only four weight classes over 160 out of 14 weight classes. This is not enough in my opinion. Most football players weigh over 160 and quite a few of them over 215. If you have ten junior and senior linemen over 215 (and I do not think that is too unusual anymore at least from what I am seeing around here it isn't unusual), you just do not have a lot of opportunity for them with only one weight class over 215. I don't think you are going to get six to ten football buddies to wrestle when they only have one varsity spot available between them. Most football coaches are not going to be interested in their 230 to 240 linemen dropping 15 to 20 pounds or over to compete for a varsity wrestling spot. They would just as soon have them lift weights during the winter. If they did not have to drop all that weight, I believe you would get more support from the football coaches.

I also think that all kids are getting a little bigger and that raising the weights will give more opportunities especially for juniors and seniors over 150 and I think the majority of the juniors and seniors are over 150. I believe our weight classes should be based on the weights of juniors and seniors. I think the changes that I have proposed from 152, 160, 171, 189, 215 and 285 to 150. 158, 167, 176, 190, 215, 230, 285 would give more opportunities to a lot of these juniors and seniors who have crept up into the weights over 150 up to 190. I would like to see an entirely new philosophy in wrestling from cutting weight to the lowest possible to going stronger at your maximum strength best weight. In other words hitting the weight room instead of having to running around the qym the day of the tournament to make weight constantly.

So sportsfan02 don't worry, I really don't need a sedative. All I can do is submit my proposal for weight changes to the NFHS. I realize that I have as about as much chance of it happening as my appeals to Lew Perkins to add a team at KU the last couple of years. At 56, I guess I fit well into that saying about there is no fool like an old fool. I will keep dreaming and asking though.

Vince
I agree with you and if I can help in your fight somehow please let me know

Thank you, Dad 275. I will let you know when I send the proposal into the NFHS and then maybe you can send a supporting letter. The only other thing is that I think we need to continue to recruit football players into the sport. I recently talked about it to a sophomore friend of my son who is playing on the rugby team with him. He is a very rugged 180 linebacker type who would have been a good wrestler. My son told me that he is seriously thinking about coming out next year for the first time as a junior. It is a little late but he is a pretty tough kid. I have seen some kids come out that late and still have high school wrestling success. Like I told him, it will definitely help his football. By the way, Dad 275, your son would be a natural for rugby and would love it. I would not be surprised though to see him playing some football or wrestling in college. Congratulations to him on a great year and finish to his wrestling year too. I saw he did very well in his off season wrestling too.

Richard,

Where did your post go??? You shouldn't doubt or question the Chief!

What would be the reasoning from moving to an even number of weight classes from an even number? Wouldn't it make sense to move to an odd numbered amount of weight classes so there is no tie breakers in certain cases? I'm probably missing something here.

You must mean Jr.!

The post was mine and was a copy of the letter regarding the study which was dated in 2003 and a copy of a letter from a coaches vote taken in 2004.

My dad has a file of reference material on the subject and recent emails from several Minnesota coachs not happy with the subject.

Dad in a not so nice manner told me to quit posting under his name and use mine.

Good advice from Dad. Jr., the attached study was referenced as being 3 years ago. The actual vote is current news.

MINNESOTA WRESTLING COACHES ASSOCIATION

Peterson Weight Study
November 21, 2003

We intend to submit a proposal for new weight classes to the National Federation. I announced at the fall clinic that I've done a study to help determine what weights would be best. I included every kid who was certified in the states of MN, ND and SD last season. That's nearly 10,000 high school wrestlers. I've attached a copy of the study in 'pdf' format, so everyone (both Macintosh and Windows) should be able to open it, as long as you have Acrobat Reader installed on your computer. I'd like you all to look at the study and discuss the issue with other coaches during the season. Either just before Christmas or just after the new year, we will be soliciting a vote on whether our proposal should be for 12 or 13 weight classes. We feel that is a compromise between the fourteen we currently have and eleven, which is favored by many smaller schools. Every head coach who is a member of the association will get a vote. If you know of a head coach who is not a member or has not given us an e-mail address, please contact Ross Johnson ASAP. I know he sent an e-mail to all section rep's with a list of the schools who are not represented by the head coach.

The results of the vote will help determine the proposal we send to the Federation. If you have questions/comments about the study or the proposal, please talk to me or e-mail.

Take care.

John Peterson
President, Minnesota Wrestling Coaches' Association
Elk River Wrestling
jhpeterson@elkriver.k12.mn.us
(763) 241-3400 x2238

MINNESOTA WRESTLING COACHES ASSOCIATION

January 23, 2004

Hey everybody! The dog days of the season are upon us. It's starting to feel long for the kids and the coaches and the parents. I hope all is going well.

I have the results from the voting on the weight class issue and the co-op question. There were 215 'ballots' sent out to the head coaches who are members of the MWCA. About 15 were sent back because of bad e-mail addresses. Of the rest, 160 responded, which is an 80% voting rate. That's not bad, and enough of a response to get a clear picture of what the coaches want, but we need full participation to remain a strong organization. I'm disappointed that some did not vote - THIS WAS AN IMPORTANT ISSUE!!!!! Answering an e-mail ballot only takes two minutes at the most, and there was a two-day window to get it done. Please do better next time. For those who did respond, thank you.

On the weight class issue, the vote was 102-58 in favor of 12 weight classes. That is a clear majority, so now we will formulate a proposal for 12 weight classes to submit to the National Federation. Some have suggestions on what the new weights should be - send them to me and I'll run the numbers on the data. Remember, though, that we have to be able to back up our proposal with the data; so if a suggestion produces unbalanced numbers, we probably won't use it. We do promise, however, to listen to ALL suggestions and proceed from there.

On the co-op question, the vote was 120-31 in favor of pursuing a change in the calculation of enrollments of co-op schools with 9 abstaining. Again, a clear majority. So I will bring up this issue with Skip Peltier on Tuesday at our meeting with the MSHSL.

I hope everyone feels this was a fair process. I worked very hard to make sure that all felt informed and could participate in the dialogue. Thanks to everyone for your active discussion - we need more of these. It makes our organization and the sport stronger.

Take care.

John Peterson
Elk River Wrestling
President, Minnesota Wrestling Coaches Association
(763) 241-3400 x2238
jhpeterson@elkriver.k12.mn.us

The new vote was by the MSHSL Athletic Director Association.

Go to theguillotine.com and read the topic about the Peterson Study and several others. Most of the coaches believe the Peterson study was flawed because he left out 7th and 8th graders who can wrestle varsity in Minnesota. If Peterson had included the 7th and 8th grade wrestlers the numbers would have been different. Many coaches are upset the 103 lb. weight classification will be bumped to 108 lbs. when the majority of forfeits at the state tournament series are in the upper weight classes.

Regardless of the 7th and 8th as we don't have that issue in KS. It would be a shame to see opportunities taken away for smaller kids that wrestling is their ONLY opportunity and given to larger kids that are looking for something to do when not playing football. Leave it the way it is. HWY is already the most forfieted weight in HS.

24/7

24/7,

This is not about taking opportunities away from smaller kids and giving them to larger kids. This is about reducing the number of classes from 14 to 12. It looks about just about all our current weight classes would lose a little ground in this proposal change to reduce two classes. Some of the reasons that I have seen given for the proposal are that coaches feel there are too many forfeits, many teams are having trouble filling all their spots, it would improve wrestling's image not to have so many forfeits and that competition would improve. The report states that the below weight classes would give the most equal distribution at actual weights for all three states in the Peterson survey. I am assuming that they are proposing this distribution or something close to it for their proposed 12 class system.

1 . 106
2 . 117
3 . 125
4 . 132
5 . 138
6 . 144
7 . 151
8 . 159
9 . 169
10. 184
11. 209
12. 285 (I assume this would remain 285 the new top weight)

MSHSL puts weight class issue for wrestling on hold

A move to cut the sport's weight classes from 14 to 12 was tabled until the board's December meeting.

By John Millea, Star Tribune
Last update: June 11, 2007 – 11:38 PM

There will be no upheaval in Minnesota high school wrestling next season. A proposal to reduce the number of weight classes from 14 to 12 -- which would make Minnesota the only state in the nation with fewer than 14 -- was tabled Monday by the Minnesota State High School League board of directors.

The board voted to conduct a survey of schools before revisiting the plan, which was proposed by the Minnesota High School Wrestling Coaches Association. The board will discuss the proposal again at its December meeting, meaning there will be no changes for the 2007-08 wrestling season.

The coaches association argues that small schools have trouble filling 14 roster spots, and that losing two weights on each team is preferable to losing entire squads every time two schools merge to form cooperative teams.

The proposal is a controversial topic in the wrestling world. Board member Mark Kuisle, activities director at Rochester Century and a 20-year member of the wrestling coaches association, said, "This issue is tearing our wrestling community apart in Minnesota."

The coaches group has polled its members, with 70 percent of the respondents voting to reduce the number of weights, according to Elk River coach John Peterson, past president of the coaches association.

"It's time to act," Peterson told the board. "We've discussed this issue extensively for four years. We do represent the wishes of an overwhelming majority of our coaches. The time has come to settle this issue once and for all."

Wabasha-Kellogg coach Ron Sanders and John Thorn, a wrestling parent from St. Michael-Albertville, spoke against the proposal. Sanders said a change in weight classes will negatively impact schools such as his, which competes against several teams from Wisconsin every year. He also questioned the coaches association's survey results.

"I'm confused on how these votes got the way they did," Sanders said. "I never got the chance to vote for 14 weights. Just about every coach I've talked to wants 14 weights."

Thorn said: "Minnesota wrestling is in great shape. Anyone saying wrestling in Minnesota is in trouble, that could be true at the local level. At the state level, participation numbers are excellent."

The MSHSL has conducted one preliminary survey of schools that sponsor wrestling, with 54 percent of those schools responding. Seventy-nine percent voted in favor of reducing the number of classes, 58 percent said 12 weight classes was the right number, and 84 percent said all three classes (3A, 2A, 1A) should have the same number of weights.

In taking a new survey, the MSHSL hopes for a higher response rate.

"Each of the schools needs to weigh in on some specific questions," Kuisle said. "I think the wrestling coaches have given us great data. It's just a matter of comparing that data and asking the right questions across Minnesota."

The actual weight classification proposal:
The classes

Current / Proposed
103 / ---
112 / 108
119 / 117
125 / 125
130 / 132
135 / ---
140 / 138
145 / 145
152 / 152
160 / 160
171 / 170
189 / 185
215 / 210
285 / 285

Under the proposal the affected weight classifications were in the lower (lighter) half of the current weight classifications.

It is generally believed the weight study provided by Mr. Peterson is flawed and the most forfeited weight classification(s) were on the higher (heavier) weight classes.

A study of the forfeited weight classifications at the MSHSL state tournament(s) supported this argument.

I think what is propelling this movement is nationally the low participation numbers per team. According to the National Federation of High School Surveys in the '77-78 season wrestling had 9,653 programs with 338,328 participants for an average of 35.05 participant per program. The participation numbers for wrestling have dropped considerably by the '05-06 season with slighty more programs at 9,744 with only 251,534 participants or an average of only 25.81 participants per team. That is a significant drop of participants per team. An average of a little less than 26 per team would make it very difficult for many schools to fill out a complete lineup for duals and state qualifying tournaments.

At the same time the '77-78 season survey for 11 man football teams showed 14,983 programs, 1,074,973 participants for an average of 71.75 participants per team. The '05-06 survey showed an increase in the average participant per team for 11 man football with slighty fewer programs at 13,727 about the same participants at 1,071,775 for a higher average of 78.08 participants per team compared to the 71.75 per team in '77-78.

I think our high school wrestling leaders need to consider the reasons the the participants per team over about the last thirty years is lowering in wrestling but increasing in football.

I am bumping this up so Contrarian can see a source for the rationale on reducing the weight classes from 14 to 12.

Hey Husker Fan. Thanks. Ask and you shall receive!

A passionate issue. I assume it was never adopted in Minnesota or even presented to the NFHS.

If I can get on to a couple of web addresses I am going to read some of the background and rational for the reduction. Until then I am unable to support such a proposal.

Two points that initially concern me about the Minnesota proposal. First point. Is the Minn Wrestling Coaches Association just a coaches association- and is there a Minn SHSAA comparable to the KSHSAA. I have stated before that I do not like coaches controling a sport. No where does the sport belong to just coaches. At all levels, MS/JrHS through professional, they are paid employees of the community/team owners. Yes, they can be surveyed, yes their input is important, and yes their inputs are critical to major decisions, but the community voice has greater standing. Where was the Minn SHSAA on this issue. Changes like this requires long and arduous study. Enough said this point.

Second point. Minnesota, Wisconsin, and ?? Dakota are not Kansas. I think all three of these states have another major winter sports activity that Kansas does not. Hockey. So, it may be that they have two sports competing for the same athletes-hockey and wrestling. How is hockey doing, growing or declining. Is wrestling being used as a bill payer for hockey?

Gots to do some more reading. I am sure this issue, and the proposal to have more but smaller brackets, will still be here next winter.

Thanks again

B. Mason
Lansing