Sixteen Kansas wrestlers made the final High School National rankings list by class from Intermat!

FRESHMEN:

112 - Daniel DeShazer - #3
119 - Ryne Cokeley - #4

SOPH:

103 - Isaac Ruiz - #9
189 - Mark Kolmer - #7
215 - Kyle Caylor - #1
285 - Brock Heithaus - #5
285 - Lucas Vincent - #6

JUNIOR:

103 - Jeff Vesta - #9
103 - Kenneth Ornelas - #12
112 - Tyler Stokes - #8
135 - C.J. Napier - #6
140 - Tyler Caldwell - #8

SENIOR:

119 - Jordan Keller - #1
140 - Phillip Henes - #7
189 - Romero Cotton - #6
285 - Atticus Disney - #11

I was somewhat surprised to see the name of Boaz Bear(Goddard - 171 pound junior during 2007/2008 season)omitted from this elite group.

I'll go out on a limb and predict that when you check the various national poll's at the end of the season - you will likely find Bo's name in the mix somewhere.

Hide and watch. Anyway, I hope so. Great wrestler. Great kid.

I agree. Boaz might be the most talented of the whole group. I can assure you there is interest in him at the D1 level, but they also know that Baseball is his priority.

Kyle Detmer could also make a national impact after all is said and done.

We will have a strong Senior class next year. Here are some wrestlers expected to have an impact. Certainly not an exhaustive list!

Ornelas
Vesta
Furches
Stokes
Wauer
Callahan
Lawrence
Rose
Slyter
Maple
Napier
Jesseph
Means
Reeb
Crank
Sommer
Houlden
Nelson
Watson
Caldwell
Detmer
Brown
Hinckley
Beard
Marrs
Kriss
Nowak
Westmoreland

Along with the 321A's that don't list their class on the State brackets.

I would guess that it would not surprise too many folks if Kyle Detmer (Bishop Carroll Senior, wrestled 154 lbs during the 2007/2008 season)also winds up somewhere in the national rankings during the course of the next season.

As an aside: I, perhaps naively, presume that any wrestler who chooses, or - for financial (or other) reasons - can not, or will not - participate in "national caliber", off-season, wrestling competition, will likely find himself in a decided disadvantage - when any national rankings eventually come out.

This supposition has always caused me to remain grossly skeptical and/or cynical of any "national" rankings - I think that we all know that it's hard enough to "rank" our own Kansas wrestlers, let alone attempt to "stack up" all of the wrestlers in the nation, at any given weight - and it's a given that participation in "nationally recognized" competition,requires a considerable financial investments (and, in some instances an investment of "time", which we, as parents,are not (or can not) give - which understandably will almost certainly prevent many outstanding (and otherwise deserving) wrestlers from competing (thus making their mark) on a national level.

With this said, I nonetheless believe that it is quite an honor for any Kansas wrestler to receive any national mention or recognition. Kudos to any Kansas wrestler representing our state in these positive regards

No doubt about that. Kyle is truly one of the best of the Kansas wrestling class of 2009. He always has been.

Wow, Eric, where in the world are the wrestlers over 189? You even missed one from 189. Where is the love for our heavier wrestlers? I am assuming the Kriss you mentioned is not the 215 Kriss from Colby who took 2nd in 4A last year. If it was he was listed as a senior last year. For you over 189 wrestlers who received no recoginition from Chief in his ratings for next years top returning wrestlers here are some of the ones who should have been mentioned on a list like this since they placed third or higher at State last year which is a better place than some of the wrestlers that Chief mentioned in his list above. By the way all those wrestlers on Chief's list are definitely deserving of being recognized as one of the top Kansas wrestlers class of 2009.

First and foremost I want to give special notice to:

Steve Kyler of Ellsworth who took 1st at 215 in 3-2-1 A. Great job, Steve, you certainly deserve mention in any list of the top Kansas wrestlers of the Kansas class of 2009.

Others who last year placed third or higher at State that I discovered in 189 and over and did not make Chief's list. I apologize if I missed anyone.

Jake Wooten, 2nd 215 6A, Olathe East (evidently wrong East!)

Kyle Westmoreland, 3rd 285 6A, Derby

Nate Davis, 3rd 189 5A, Liberal (Nate, way to come thru in the last minute for the Kansas Junior Dual Freestyle team this year. You were the 189 3rd or higher that Chief left off his list.)

Jacob Nowak, 3rd 285 5A, Aquinas (self interest admitted upfront on this inclusion but this two time state placer, three time SM North winner and two time regional winner deserved listing on Chief's list and perhaps would have DEFINITELY gotten it if he had gone to SM East which is our family's school district. If you are getting the idea that I am a little miffed by Chief's list, you are correct but Chief's list is good motivational bulletin board material. I got to admit that.)

Jered Rice, 2nd 285 3-2-1A (I am not sure if Jered is class of 2009 but I think he may be since he took 1st at Kids State this year at 250).

Micheael Patenaude, 3rd 215 4A, Clay Center

I have left off some other good heavier wrestlers by just mentioning the 3rd place and higher. Howard Johnson a placer this year at 215 5A and Kendall Pierce of Circle I believe a heavier placer in 3-2-1A certainly also could be mentioned in a list of top Kansas wrestlers from the class of 2009.

It is bewildering to me that you quality state placers over 189 from the class of 2009 were left off Chief's list above. Let it be officially known that you have all made Husker Fan Vince Nowak's list of top returning Kansas wrestlers from the class of 2009. I may have missed some too of you heavier quality wrestlers class 2009. If I did please feel free to e-mail me at vlnowak@everestkc.net and I will be sure to include you or any heavier wrestler that you are aware of that did not get mentioned.

Vince - I beleive Chief is referring to Tanner Kriss, also of Colby. 171Lbs as a Junior, 4th place/4A 36-4.

Tim:

I am sure that is correct. Tanner is definitely a top 2009 Kansas wrestler returning next year and deserves to be on such a list. It does confirm then that Chief only mentioned one 189 wrestler and no wrestler over 189.

1. Those on the "list" were just a brief glance at next year.
2. Where is the SM East bias? Not one SME kid was listed.
3. Tanner Kriss will be 215 next year.
4. These are certainly not rankings.
5. Losing Disney, Andrus, Bach, Thomas, Kober,Roberts, Doxon and Downs has changed the landscape of our senior big men.
6. Lighten up Vince. Jacob has a real shot at a State title. I expect him to be there next year!

Eric:

I think you need to be a little more careful on your brief glances and rankings or lists or whatever you want to call them because some of these high school kids do read these postings and they do take offense to being left off. I am not just talking about Jacob. I have heard this from others.

As far as where your SM East bias is I know you did not mention any SM East 2009 wrestlers on this list. I looked at your State qualifier list and you did not have any 2009 state placers so I did not expect you to include any on this particular list. But my point is that I believe from reading some of your previous ratings that all of those wrestlers 189 and over that I mentioned would also been mentioned by you if they were SM East wrestlers. I saw you last year include on a PRE-SEASON prediction of state placers in 6A a SM East junior varsity wrestler from the previous year. I know it often happens but on a Pre Season ranking to put up a prediction of a JV wrestler from your son's team as a state placer, tell me that isn't showing a SM East bias.

It really should not matter if Tanner Kriss is going to be 215 next year. The point is that you didn't seem to think those other wrestlers from last year that actually wrestled and placed third or higher in weights over 189 deserved mentioning on your list. And yet you managed to name several in weights under 189 that did not place as high as these heavier wrestlers that I mentioned. I am not saying that these wrestlers who you mentioned were not also deserving but the wrestlers I mentioned deserved recognition on that same type of list and you still seem to think that they are not deserving mention.

On these class of 2008 wrestlers at 215 and 285 leaving the landscape that you mentioned, I take that to mean that you don't think the guys that I mentioned will be in the same category with all of those guys. I disagree. I believe several of the 2009 guys that I mentioned will perform next year to the same level of some of those young men mentioned from the 2008 class. In fact a couple of them may have placed higher at state last year than a couple of the guys you mentioned. Again you need to be more careful in making lists I know for a fact that you missed a couple of State champions in Zlatnick and Hackathorn. How could you possibly not mention Zlatnick? There may be more that you missed. You are correct that 2008 was an exception year for heavier weights in Kansas. Those guys you mentioned were all very good and some were national caliber wrestlers. That would also have been a great reason to have given some recognition to those 2009 wrestlers who managed still to place in the top three in such a stellar year for heavier wrestlers.

Every year and just about every weight class losses top wrestlers. It is just not happening in the higher weights. There are plenty of 2008 seniors in all the weight classes that are moving on to college that will change the landscape of those classes too.

Eric, I guess I will start lightening up on it when you can admit you made too brief of a glance at it by not including all those wrestlers that I mentioned over 189 and not even bothering to make any attempt at identifying deserving 3-2-1A wrestlers. If you aspire to be that State coordinator type person for our Kansas Dual teams next year (a position you suggested in another post) you will need to have a better understanding of 3-2-1A wrestlers and of all the available talent in the heavier weight classes.

Vince,

If I had to guess, I would say that Jacob really didn't care that he was not mentioned. It is very clear that you were offended. Like I said before, those names were thrown out and not presented as an official list. A glance is meant to be brief. I posted those wrestlers as a representative example of Seniors to watch. Had I intended the post to be a real list, I would have "bothered" to list 321A guys. It's always a task to find the grade level of the 321A wrestlers when they don't post them on the State brackets.

Do you really think that SEVERAL of our 285 Senior HWT's will perform at the SAME LEVEL as Atticus Disney, Steve Andrus, Duane Zlatnik and Joe Bach? Those guys were either nationally ranked or previous Fargo All-Americans. It was a banner year for Kansas big men. For you to say that several of our 09 heavy guys will perform at that same level shows your lack of understanding talent levels.

Let's address your SME bias claim. The wrestler that I predicted would place at 285 was 6'5" 285 Anthony Garrett. He suffered a season ending shoulder injury and was unable to compete. His back-up that Anthony beat 10 out of 10 times was Dennis Jilka. Dennis had a fine season and placed 5th at State. Where was the bias? If a JV's back-up placed at State, would Anthony have placed? Again Vince, please be prepared when you respond.

Eric:

"If I had to guess, I would say that Jacob really didn't care that he was not mentioned."

Your guess is worse than your ommissions. Jacob was very upset yesterday when he read your list of top returning wrestlers from the class of 2009 and did not see his name mentioned as he was upset last year when you ranked him 6th in your Pre-season 5A poll. He is not the only high school wrestler either that I have heard from that becomes upset with your assessements. So just be aware that the high school kids do care when you are rating them and assessing them just like you care on how I and others assess your list and rankings.

"Do you really think that SEVERAL of our 285 Senior HWT's will perform at the SAME LEVEL as Atticus Disney, Steve Andrus, Duane Zlatnik and Joe Bach? Those guys were either nationally ranked or previous Fargo All-Americans. It was a banner year for Kansas big men. For you to say that several of our 09 heavy guys will perform at that same level shows your lack of understanding talent levels."

First of all we were talking about more than just 285 you also threw in 215 pounders. Second I also said it was a banner year for heavier wrestlers and acknowledged several of them were national caliber. Good to see you are realizing Zlatnick belonged in the national class. Third I did not say that the 2009 guys I mentioned would measure up to the level of ALL the 2008 wrestlers you mentioned. I said they would measure up to SOME of them. For your information, Jake Wooten and Jacob both gave Andrus a pretty good close match at the early season tournament in Leavenworth last year, Andurs did win both matches. In saying that I am not saying they are in Andrus class. Andrus is truly a national wrestler and deserves his Division I status. I was not saying that next year's 215 or 285 seniors from this year would be in the class of the elite national guys you just mentioned but I do think that several of them will be in the same class of SOME of the 2008 215 and 285 guys you mentioned and certainly deserved recognition in the list of top returning seniors that you originally mentioned.

The SM East bias is that most of us could do the same thing with our previous year JV lineup but most of us would not go so far as to include these guys in a prediction for next year's state placers because it shows we are favoring our own. There are other examples of your SM East bias I could bring up but I chose not to. My main point with it is that because of your previous ratings of SM East wrestlers, I have no doubt that if any of the guys that I mentioned were SM East wrestlers that you would have definitely included them on your original list. If you can rate the high school wrestlers, I feel good about assessing your performance as a rater and to point out tendencies and biases that I might perceive you to have as a rater.

"Again Vince, please be prepared when you respond."

What, I am supposed to be more prepared than you were when you chose to ignore both 3-2-1A and the heavier weights for the class of 2009?

We have to get this one clear Vince. The only SME JV wrestler in 2006-07 that I listed in my predictions to place in 2007-08 was Anthony Garrett at 285. You say that "We would not go so far as to include these guys in a prediction for next year's state placing". I included him because it was the correct prediction! In fact, his back-up placed 5th at State. To not include him would actually show a bias against my team.

Eric,

Well I doubt there is any danger of anyone saying that you have ever demonstrated a bias against your own team. The point of my bringing up your tendency to include SM East wrestlers in your predictions and rankings was not to say they are wrong or that they did not prove to be accurate. I think SM East had a very good team last year and I congratulate them on their performance all year long and especially at State.

The point though was that I believe that if any of those heavier guys I mentioned had been SM East wrestlers that you would without a doubt have mentioned them. I mean I have admitted at times on this forum when I take a stand on something like more weight classes for heavier guys that I have a personal interest in it. Heck on an earlier post in another topic I admitted that I had a biased opinion about it but I thought Jake Walker of Aquinas would win a State title next year in 5A and I do believe that. Can you honestly expect me to believe that if any of the heavier 2009 guys I mentioned had been SM East wrestlers that you would not have taken more than a brief glance at them and included them on your original list?

It's just a random post Vince. No rankings, no ratings, no anything, other than some wrestlers who will be Seniors next year. Now you are proposing a possible bias if there were hypothetically SME wrestlers at those weights? Are you kidding?

No I am not kidding. I firmly believe that all those over 189 guys that I mentioned who finished third or higher last year would have also been mentioned by you if they had been SM East wrestlers.

Vince, give it a break.

24/7

For any of you that have enjoyed (or been annoyed) by the exchange between Vince and I.....

We are friends and are just having a side conversation on the wrong thread. No hard feelings, just talking freely!