Hey Bronco, let us know where you are every weekend and we can all come out and heckle you for bad calls before the tourney even starts. You probably spent an hour typing that nonsense and the guy did not even make one comment on the subject at all. Dont assume you know what anyone else is going to say, especially when it comes to a story that is so great.

Why is it nobody can address the facts as presented by Bronco Wrestler? Instead some choose to attack the messenger! This remains the question I have asked over the past couple of years, if we are lagging or falling behind, where is the evidence? To date, nobody has been able to provide anything other than antidotal opinions. Again, as Bronco states by any measure we more than hold our own on a national level!
The other facts are that virtually every state has travel restrictions and most comparable to ours. In fact over the course of the last few years several states have brought their travel restrictions to be more inline with ours after some less than favorable experiences.

IRONMAN RESULTS

Team Name (State) [#] Score
Blair Academy (NJ) 283
St. Paris Graham (OH) 234
Central Mountain (PA) 145
St. Edward (OH) 143
Massillon Perry (OH) 117
Blue Mountain (PA) 114
Reynolds (PA) 103
Wyoming Seminary (PA) 102
Christianburg (VA) 97
Brecksville-Broadview Heights (OH) [7] 82
Shady Side Academy (PA) 82
Troy Christian (OH) 80
Montini Catholic (IL) 76
University School (OH) 76
Wadsworth (OH) 72
Archbishop Moeller (OH) 70
Monroeville (OH) 68
Broomfield (CO) 68
Burrell (PA) 67
Broken Arrow (OK) 60
Elyria (OH) [7] 60
North Allegheny (PA) 55
Colonial Forge (VA) 55
St. Ignatius (OH) [7] 55
Bishop Lynch (TX) 52
Padua Franciscan (OH) [5] 48
Glenbard North (IL) 48
Mount Carmel (IL) 39
Claymont (OH) 37
Great Bridge (VA) 37
Cuy. Valley Christian Academy (OH) [8] 35
Caesar Rodney (DE) 34
Mountain Crest (UT) [2] 33
Lawrenceville (NJ) [1] 29
Mingus (AZ) [7] 29
Parkersburg South (WV) 29
Oak Ridge (CA) [5] 27
West Geauga (OH) [1] 26
Valley Forge (OH) [1] 25
Parkersburg (WV) 23
Oak Harbor (OH) 22
Germantown Academy (PA) [7] 21
Woodberry Forest (VA) [3] 21
Natomis (CA) [1] 20
Foothill (CA) [4] 19
Poway (CA) [3] 18
Lemoore (CA) [3] 15
Tabb (VA) [1] 15
Sandusky Perkins (OH) [1] 14
Tiffin Calvert (OH) [1] 13
Aurora (OH) [2] 11
Walsh Jesuit (OH) 11
Chancellor (VA) [1] 7
Royal (CA) [2] 5
McEachern (GA) [1] 4
Gilroy (CA) [2] 3
St. Vincent - St. Mary (OH) [1] 2

The post that triggered Mr. Ryan's comments was in itself evidence. The results above are from the Walsh Ironman tournament and as you can see many teams traveled more than 500 miles from their state border to compete. Where is your evidence that travel has been restricted more? Kansas went from 150 miles to 500 so even they are being less restrictive. How could the experiences be less favorable? Where is your evidence? You show me a matrix of every states rules and I will believe you. I have emailed every surrounding state's equivalent of Rick Bowden so I could assemble such a matrix and I got exactly 0 responses. You cannot use Fargo as a measuring stick but you can use the FACT (clearly evidence) that many, many of our Kansas hosted tournaments invite out of state competition and many of them win. Just where do you think Goddard or Derby would finish in the list above? Overall, each year Kansas high school lineups are showing more and more empty weight classes and our best are getting it handed to them at Senior nationals. If you are not doing anything to get better then you are falling behind. You want to use the results of the few kids who defy the KSHSAA's attempts to level the playing field by working on their own all year and by traveling on their own all year.

You want to use Fargo as a measuring stick when in fact it is more than 500 miles from the border which would clearly violate the rule which you think is good (572 miles). Where is Senior Nationals? Virginia Beach, VA 1230 miles away but a good tournament to measure Kansas wrestler's against the rest of the nation. If you like those tournaments why not allow travel to Cuyohoga Falls, OH? It is only 800 miles from KC just like Rio Rancho, NM but you can go to Rio Rancho but you can't go to Cuyhoga Falls, OH.

Sport0, address the facts that Sabetha was won by a team from Nebraska, last year at Garden City three of the top five teams were out of state teams, Abilene Duals was won by Blue Springs, MO, Border War Duals was DOMINATED by the Missouri teams, etc. Why do you ignore the FACTS I present?

The attack was in response to Bronco's OW comments. Those were completely uncalled for.

I was shocked to see your return to the forum. You hadn't posted since I left the message with your wife a few months ago! Welcome back!

I guess I missed the part where Will dogged the OW for the tourney. Or did someone put words in his mouth?

Not that it matters since you simply dismiss any evidence anyone supplies, but per your request...
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-162665175.html
http://www.insidesocal.com/tomhoffarth/archives/2006/11/the-oj-mayo-eff-1.html
Admittedly those only involve Wisconsin and Ohio, two states who would never be considered wrestling powers?



Thank you for finally admitting that both Bronco's and my evidence is acceptable and accurate. As we have tried to explain, we more than hold our own against the best in the nation.
By the way, if our wrestling sucks so bad, how come good teams from other states want to come here to wrestle? Wouldn't we, as you suggest, be holding them back by not supplying the best competition they could find?
I say, bring-em on! Let any tough team from any state come here to wrestle and let them spend their tax and personal dollars in our communities and state. This has not only an economic value to our state and cities but keeps all of our tournaments viable and operating. I have never heard of a tournament refusing to allow out of state teams so maybe you could send out some invites for us.


I was here long before you wandered in and will be here long after you're gone. See I am the one who actually shows up at the meetings unlike some others!

The amendment to the WIAA's bylaws allows schools to take only one trip per team per season outside Wisconsin or its contiguous neighboring states of Minnesota, Iowa, Illinois and Michigan.

From your article: ONE TRIP ALLOWED. We don't even get that! Look at the population base in Wisconsin and it's neighboring states and look at ours. They don't have to travel to find competition. Wisconsin and Illinois annually kick Kansas' collective butt in the summer dual events.

It’s reminiscent of how the OHSAA tightened travel restrictions after James’ teams at Akron St. Vincent St. Mary played a national schedule with games in big arenas across the country.

Nothing to do with wrestling and no clarification of what the rule is. Again, a state that is smack dab in the middle of densley populated areas that provide competitive opportunities unlike the population barren area that our travel permits.

Make sense out of my example of travel between Rio Rancho and KC versus KC and Cuyhoga Falls, OH... Just try! Bowden told me that the 500 mile from the border limit was developed by finding the longest road trip within the borders of Kansas. It is 2008 and you can fly from KC to Chicago in an hour and it takes seven hours to drive to Liberal! So don't give me that missing classroom time crap either.


So do you acknowledge my evidence? Do you even care if I present a facts or do you just argue with me because that is your hobby? Works for me!

What meetings are you referring to? The one where I was at an out of state wrestling tournament? I guess that isn't an acceptable reason to miss a meeting...

No arguement, I like having out of state teams come to Kansas for all of the reasons you have listed.

Why should we disallow out of state teams and who said we should? Certainly not me!

The parents and wrestlers in any state where there are travel restrictions do not like them and have tried to fight them. Freedom to choose is good thing, you must admit. Who does it harm if SJA goes to Ironman? Who and how?

Since you are quite a bit older than me I would bet money that I am here long after you are gone.

Ok, so I don't know how this turned into a conversation about Mr. Cokeley, I do not know him but he has helped me with the rankings alot and I personally have no problems with his posts. That is what makes this country great, we do not have to AGREE! As far as him dogging the OW, I don't believe he ever even asked about or posted anything about the OW before. I think if Will was here during the tourney he would have agreed with us.

Now speaking for the state of Kansas, I have been fortunate enough to go to HS nationals 3 out of the last 4 years. I was lucky enough, as well, to be in Jordan Keller's corner all the way through the finals. We do very well at that level, but have you seen the kinds of facilities these places have-even Blair has a room I would die for, they can coach almost year-round, and they have no travel restrictions. Would I like all of these things for us? Of course I would an the KWCA an USAWKS are trying to change some of these things. We are always looking for, and need, more coaches to join us in the fight. But the "powers that be" will not budge on a few of these ideas. I am reminded of a former Kansas kids that thought wrestling here was not good enough, so he moved to Iowa. I have no idea how well he did, but I know we didn't hear his name anymore! We, coaches at all levels, want to have the best wretlers and we try to make them out of football players and farm boys....if ya wanna travel do it during kids.

So I guess you could call this "riding the fence" on the topic, we wrestle many Nebraska teams up here in the great white north-east, because they are closer! I want to beat Auburn very badly, in fact that is something that drives me as a coach, and I want to wrestle tough competetion(although it makes seeding meetings hard at times). And I agree with a former post "Those who say things cant be changed should leave those who think they can alone!" Join the KWCA and let your voice be heard, we are trying for a bailout of Kansas wrestling right now with the Kansas State Congress....$200 billion..but none for Norton!(just kidding Billy)

Coach Brown

The first thing I have noticed so far, is that you mention that a team from Nebraska came to Sabetha to win... no point in nebraska is 500 miles from Sabetha so our KS rule still applies. Rio Ranch is I quote from mapquest "Total Estimated Distance: 463.15 miles " so well within the 500 miles allowed from the Kansas border. So again another one within your rules.

The second point I which to make is that any private school is not bounds by the rules of the KSHSAA unless they are a member. Let's not all forget that Blair Academy in NJ is private, thus the funding is greater, and they do not have to conform to any rules per say.



But let's not forget the Missouri vs. Kansas dual in which little KS had NO CHANCE in winning, and if I'm not mistaken they "upset" Missouri and Gutwrench1 has never been heard from again.

I agree that in order to better yourself you must keep looking for a step up, but let's not forget these guys are STUDENT-athletes and being gone for a 4 or 5 day trip for a wrestling tournament doesn't do any student any favors. If you want to travel attend a private school which doesn't have to abide by the rules you so hate then that is your choice to do so. You can also wrestle freestyle/greco which you can travel wherever you want.

For those who want to be there to heckel me, Jan. 3 I will be in Russell, January 10 I will be in Ellis. I will be in Colby the first weekend in Feb. for their kid's tournament. I'm not hiding from anyone. If I mess up, let me know I probably deserve it.

Duh! Why is it you cannot understand that they will ALWAYS kick our butts based on the population differences?


Something else you're either having trouble understanding or deliberately omitting. Any changes KSHSAA makes to the travel restrictions will apply to all sports and not just wrestling. The effect will increase taxes in many if not all of our school systems.


Sorry, I have trouble making sense out of much of what you say. That example is no different.


In a word, NO! You have yet to show where in national tournaments in which we compete, we fail to wrestle up to our level per capita. The facts are we wrestle above what we should based on our population. I attribute this to a good club system and above average coaching in our high schools.

In case you don't know the exact rule, here it is direct from the KSHSAA Handbook.

"..Sec. 4: Any KSHSAA member school desiring to host an
out-of-state member school or to participate in an out-of-state
activity shall limit travel distance in dual competition (two
schools) so it shall not exceed 500 road miles of the border
(perimeter) of the state of Kansas. KSHSAA member schools
desiring to host or participate in a multiple-interscholastic
event (three or more schools) involving an out-of-state school(s)
shall be limited to those within 500 road miles of the border
(perimeter) of the state of Kansas.
Each event must be approved by the KSHSAA and the
out-of-state high school’s association. Such approval must
be initiated by the host member school not later than 30
days prior to the date of the activity. Application forms are
provided by the KSHSAA or the out-of-state high school’s
association.
EXCEPTION: The Executive Board may approve interstate
activities for individual schools when mileage is in excess
of those stated provided the travel distance is less than for
a similar event in Kansas.
When a KSHSAA member school competes with an outof-
state school, it may not waive or exceed any KSHSAA
standards."

If you read the rules it says Kansas' Perimeter, not where your town is. So if you wish you may now expand your scope to include various other tournaments you didn't think you could attend.

One last thing I must think about while typing this is, if you think we are so far behind due to our travel restrictions, why would we want to travel to the Ironman or Beast of the East just so we can go 0-2 because we're not near good enough to be there?

For the same reason that a bunch of kids will go to the Ellis tourney and go 0-2. A new kid will get his butt handed to him at Ellis, and he will better because of it hopefully. An average kid will go to the Wichita Classic tourney and get his butt handed to him, go 0-2, and hopefully be better because of it. And a stud should be allowed to go to Ohio, California, or wherever, and possibly get his butt whipped, possibly go 0-2, and become better because of it.

Since when does going 0-2 make you a better wrestler? I was always told it was mat time that made people better, does it really matter where that mat is? Be it in Ellis KS or San Jose CA?

Bronco,
What does it matter if a kid goes 0-2, that is not the point. If a team has the means to go to out of state tournaments they should be allowed to go if its 200 miles 0r 1000 miles, the restriction does not make sense. I live 451 miles from Goodland and can travel an additional 500 miles from there,thats 951 miles. But i can't travel the 750 miles to Ohio,or 550 miles to chicago, Please explain to me how this rule makes sense.

Tom Baughman

Tom,
using your rationale, it does not

Point well taken Tom. It doesn't make any sense.

Yes it does. If you read those links I posted the feeling in the various activity associations are, if one team has the means to travel and does so, it will have the effect of creating super teams which will siphon off talent from nearby teams. We already see this to a lesser degree with stronger programs and coaches in certain areas. The accumlative effect could be to have a state of 'haves and have-nots'. This would possibly result in programs which were no longer viable being dropped. That other winter sport doesn't have to worry about programs being dropped even if they are non-competitive. Wrestling on the otherhand should always have that concern and be looking out for our neighbors.

Sportsfan,

The other side of that coin is that by creating a super team or playing a national schedule vice purely a state schedule that school district incereased its revenue enough to fund the athletic program for 10 years. This is evidence provided in the article you gave. This is not such a bad thing.

Here's the 800 lb gorilla that nobody wants to address.....you said it will create a state of "haves and have-nots". So what. Isn't that what we currently have in this country given our economic system?

The bottomline to this whole issue has nothing to do with wrestling or any other sport specifically but the basic fundamental premise of freedom. In my opinion, a school district should have the freedom to chose where they compete. They make that choice based on a variety of factors, one being resources available.

If this creates a system of haves and have nots so be it. You can always go out and work to improve your lot in life. The more we try to equal the playing field on any of this, the more we inch closer to socialism.

Keeping things at the local level seems to work the best. That way school boards and the local population can vote to increase bonds if they want to support school events travelling outside the state greater than 500 miles. It shouldn't be a blanket policy.

Just my thoughts.

Shawn Budke

I am sorry but that is about as lame excuse as I have seen.

Somebody might get better if we allow them to travel. So lets not let anyone travel to keep everyone equal. OMG

Do you hear yourself? If I start a business and am able to make it grow - someone who doesnt might get offended because I can lead and organize and sell and beat them. So if your thinking stands, I would be penalized for success to make you feel better about not achieving. We cant have too much success only mediocrity! I have heard Will talk about socialism and this is it!

I missed Shawns post but aggree!

Sportsfan02
Is this coming from a Public vs Private school issue?

I am not a fan of STA at all for example. But if they can grow a program let them! If Paola can grow a program Let them!

I don't think we should keep score anymore.

24/7