i somewhat agree with you beeson. the teach 'em to win first and to wrestle second, coaching technique usually only lasts until jr. high. the thing is these moves are so simple and require such little skill, most kids will learn them on their own. on the other hand, when do you step in and start showing kids quick ways to win, so their confidence level does not drop? secondly where do you draw the line on "novice"? we were at a novice tourney today in MO, we shook hands got blasted, picked up, halfed on the way back to the mat, and pinned. i laughed and said "that doesn't look novice to me", then his coach said "can you believe that he has never won a single match at an open tourney?" i feel that novice is for kids with less than two years experience, and less than 25% winning percentage. it is for "MAT TIME", like you said. i would like to hear some thoughts from other coaches on this, there were kids there who placed 2nd the day before at the open. what's a good solution?