Okay, when I made my initial post, I did include items that were not mentioned in the original topic of discussion by Coach Cue (Shelstin). Sorry about that.

I just feel very strongly about some of the other aspects of middle school wrestling. I would very much like to see not only the middle school season changed to be consistent state wide but provisions to allow wrestlers to compete at kids club tournaments as long as it does not interfer with middle school tournaments. That is where this got off on another tangent. Again, sorry.

Anyway as I stated before I am not a coach, therefore, I am not aware of KSHSAA regulations and what they have a say in other than what is referred to in the handbook.

So all that being said, can the season be changed in an existing league as opposed to one that is now being formed? Where do we go from here?

It appears that some western Kansas coaches are in agreement with trying to change the wrestling season. Are school officials/ADs in these districts in agreement also?

Thanks.

Yes, the time of the year that wrestling season occurs can be changed in an existing league. It depends on the league as to how changes are handled; for example, in some leagues, changes of this kind might require a recommendation of the coaches (and probably with a plan as to how it would work) be made to the principals and/or ADs of the member schools; and then approved by them. It might then have to be approved by the Supts; and in some/most leagues, that may also then require the approval of the respecitve BOE's.

The kicker here, is that while it may be a great idea (and what was originally being discussed is a GREAT idea) not all are automatically going to see that it is a great idea. There may be personnel concerns, facility concerns, transportation issues, etc. etc. There may also be an unawareness of why this change is an issue.

If this is approached from the standpoint/attitude that this is "great for wrestling and that is all you need to know;" or, "this should pass because I want it;" it won't go too far or very fast. For schools to make this change requires that they understand that there are benefits to be had that are more global. For example, why is this change a good thing for girls JH BB? Always remember that there are many activities and programs competing for attention and limited time and resources.

Finally, it is important to keep in mind that not all persons associated with schools (principals, ADs, supts. BOE members, etc.) are up to speed on wrestling and its somewhat unique needs. I don't know the numbers now, but several years ago the number of administrators in Kansas with bb backgrounds was much greater than those with wrestling backgrounds; doubt the ratio has changed much.

What I find most ironic in all this, is that western Kansas, generally considered to be the historical wrestling hotbed of Kansas, is basically the last area of the state to still have JH/MS wrestling beginning after Christmas.

Greg Mann
Norton

Greg, I was about to make a very similar post. It was excellent. Thank you. I know for a fact that we have people that are involved in the decision making process reading this board now, and some of what has been placed here is counter productive. I ask that we please stay on topic.

It is my understanding that the schools that may be most involved this league process are Hugoton, Holcomb, Liberal South, Liberal West, Goodland, Colby, Scott City, Oakley and Norton. If you are a coach and have any administrative contacts in those schools I ask that you respectfully make an attempt to approach them on this issue. I will attempt to gain email addresses of the Junior High Coaches of the above mentioned schools to get their input on this topic. Once again, please address this in your coaches meetings. If the concensus is to maintain things as they are, so be it. The next league meeting will be March 4th.

Rick Cue
Ulysses

Anyone know what our border states do as far as jh wrestling? Do their state associations set their seasons?

We are wrestling at Lamar, CO. I will ask on Thursday.

If I have not responded to an email that you sent me, I apologize. For some reason, I opened up the spam filter on my computer and I found four emails this morning. I had been deleting that every day witout opening it. There were two from a school email account and two private accounts. So, if I did not reply, please get back with me and I promise to respond. I will answer every email.

Up to this point, the response is nearly unanimously supportive. There is some confusion, however. NO ONE other than the schools establish the season of sport for ALL junior high sports. Most follow very similar start and end dates, but they are set by the individual schools. Most leagues have agreements, but the KSHSAA is not involved.

This is how they do it in Colorado. You get there. You wait for the girls to get out of your locker room. This takes a while. Then when you do get to wrestle, they call your first guy, against two different guys, on two different mats, So he goes out and wrestles one guy, then they call him again in about 5 minutes for the other guy, so you go tell them that he just wrestled, so they say okay, we will give you more time, and give you about one more minute to report. Then, it looks like some of your guys are wrestling about two weight classes up, and you don't know what weight class, but no one seems to have weigh in sheets. So you wrestle anyway, The official in the rock band T-shirt with cool skulls and stuff and baseball cap lets a guy that you are wrestling grab on the the edge of the mat while your guy is pulling on both ankles, and gives running boy a point for an escape and puts them upon their feet. Then you explain it to him, and how in Kansas that would be pretty much illegal to hold on to the mat like a five year old boy on the way to the dentist, and he says, ok, you're right..and he takes an escape point off, and we win. A fleeing the mat conversation would have been fruitless, but that's ok at this point. That was at...oh...the 155-167 pound weight class. I think we skipped down to about the 85-105 weight class, and gone directly into the, oh...120-135 pound weight class, but no one really knows whats going on or what weight class is next, but they are calling heavyweights and everyone is getting there, so I guess it's okay. We know it's over when the guy with the little portable speaker disappears. That's how they do it there. Not a lot of regulation with starting dates, ending dates, no match count or point system...just wrestle em baby!! Yeah, kind of like that. And I really seem to like the new officials uniforms, since I am kind of partial to bands with skulls on the t-shirts. They don't they have to wear head gear or get hair cuts either. Our kids think that's cool and wanted to do that too, but I really don't, so I made them sad. They have some tough kids, a few had really big scary tattoos and everything. Skulls seem to be very popular there. I think I like Kansas better, come to think of it. Does that help any?

Rick
Glad to be able to cross back home

Were you in Lamar?

Mann

I apologize for gettiing off track. I was going to erase that post, but you had already responded to it. Yes, that post was a little frustration coming out. I guess in Colorado they just match up the JH kids, don't really follow weight classes, just lump them up and wrestle them. I had mine at weight, and I have a few younger kids that ran into pretty good kids that looked quite a bit bigger. Maybe they were just more mature. I really like the way we do things here. It totally reinforces everything we do is the right thing to do for kids. There were no skin checks either, and we have had NO problems with skin infection this year. I took a can of skin shield, and I hope that was enough to keep us in good shape. Back to the original post. I talked to a few coaches and there seems to be nothing set by the state for JH wrestling in Colorado. Not even head gear. It all semed a little surreal, since we are so organized, in my opinion, with everything we do in Kansas.

Sorry, I did not read closely; up above you said you were going to Lamar.

Things have obviously changed there. When I was coaching at Abe Hubert JH in GC back in the late 70's and 80's we still had freshmen and we started our freshmen season dueling Lamar. When we went there at that time it was run like a "real" dual even had on-site shoulder-to-shoulder weigh-ins and refs in stripes!

I loved your description of the event; the dress of the ref the boy hanging on to the edge of the mat, and the guy with the portable PA packing up and leaving. Made me laugh out loud!

Greg Mann
Norton

I don't mean anyone disrespect over there. Not at all, because they obviously put in a lot of effort matching all of those kids up. And, they did have a lot of tough kids that were technically very solid for their age. I just really like the fact that we do things much more like the high school and the National Federation. The refs actually weren't too bad, but I think it looked bad, if that makes any sense. It was still a lot of fun.

I wanted to put Doug's thoughts on the bottom of this thread. I respect him tremendously. This is still on the table, and it seems to have some support. I don't want to let it die, as I honestly feel that it is in the best interest of wrestling in Kansas. I can't emphasize enough how important I believe the team aspect of Junior High wrestling is to the High School programs. I also completely understand the merits of a strong kids program, and I believe that they can co-exist very well.
Rick Cue
Ulysses

All Lawrence Junior Highs start wrestling in late October and run until winter break.

I have received emails stating that Great Bend and Hays are also changing their season to immediately after football.

Update. Most of the schools in Southwest Kansas have decided to move the junior high wrestling season to immediately after football beginning next season. The High Plains League (Hugoton, Cimarron, Holcomb, Sublette and Lakin I believe) will wrestle after Christmas. I have been told by our junior high activities director that the schools in Northwest Kansas may also continue to wrestle after Christmas. To be honest, I am not sure about them, and that decision may not have been made yet. There is still the possibility that the schools in SW Kansas could go back to the old schedule when the new league starts up in 2010-2011. It's a start. I hope it works.

There have been some discussion about the change in season among the schools of the Mid-Continent League; to date there has been nothing definitive. IMO, a decision is a year away and will be dependent upon what the out-of-league schools with whom we compete do with their schedules.

Greg, to facilitate our scheduling, we are going south now instead of north for most of our competition. We are adding tournaments in Dumas and Boy's Ranch, Texas. I hope it works out for the northern Kansas schools. This change will really cut into my bow hunting time, but it will make our wrestling teams better, in my honest opinion.

it seems that everyone on here is in favor of this season change. my question is, is there any reason basketball people would not support this? if so, why? how about administrators? if everyone can get on board it seems it should be able to be done...granted i know sometimes governing bodies such as the kshsaa aren't the most efficient but nevertheless...

the KSHSAA does not set the time of seasons for JH and Middle School sports.

Positives for changing JH Wrestling Season:

1. Coaching Staffs can be same
2. Butts up with Federated season
3. if all move:
a. more opponents possible;
b. more comp dates available;
c. a more standardized season
4. Butts up with MAYB-type competition for the "before Chrismas" basketball season (unless both Boys & Girls BB are played after Christmas).

Negatives for Changing JH Wrestling Season:

1. Facility issues:
a. single practice rooms = split practice times; HS
probably going late
b. Gym issues: JH BB season after Christmas = later
practice times for HS BB for a longer period of time
2. Fewer opponents/competition opportunities if all do NOT move
3. No real advantage for the BB teams whose seasons come
"before Christmas" vis-à-vis MAYB-type competition
4. Late JH and early HS seasons would overlap; would have JH
BB & WR competition going on with HS BB & WR for about three
weeks before Christmas. Coaching, facility and
transportation needs would have to be closely coordinated.

Greg,

How about having KSHSAA relax the competition restrictions for MS or JH wrestling? As I understand the majority of these competitions are conducted on weekdays. Why not allow these kids to attend USA Wrestling Club practices and weekend events during the season? What are the cons to less regulation? This would allow USA Wrestling to make some changes to the length of their season as well. Opposition was voiced to a recent suggestion because "some" MS/JH seasons run PAST the end of the HS wrestling season.