Typical thinking nowadays, you don't take the literal meaning, only the meaning that you can bend to make your argument sound legit.

Doug, I meant no offense if parts of your words are intended towards me.

Jesus says take the plank out of your own eye before you go getting the speck of our your brother's eye.

Or, said another way -- we all have our area of weaknesses.

Diversity is also cool. I imagine we could still enjoy each other's company even if we disagree on what to do with a disagreeable kid.

Many blessings to you.

Dean

Thanks for the response. We can certainly talk by PM's about scripture. To be sure, we need to be careful about dismissing clear truth as figurative. As you know, Proverbs is a priceless guide on raising kids. (10:13,19:18,23:13-14, 29:17 for starters).

One more point and I will talk privately on this issue to anyone who would like to...

Ephesians 6:4, Here's the positive: "Bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord." "Discipline" implies training, which involves rules and regulations enforced by rewards and punishment. You set the standard, follow it, then hold your children accountable to it. If they meet it, you reward them. If they violate it, you punish them. That way you're helping them see the consequences of their actions.

Chief,

I agree with all of that you wrote and can do all without hitting a kid. But, that is just me. If others want to hit, sobeit.

Take care.

Dean

it's only child abuse if you get caught. or as beeson would put it a bleeding heart would call the police on you for giving your kid a butt whoopin for being out of control.

thats the problem with alot of kids now days not enough good old fashioned but whoopins being handed out.

i have a daughter aspyn she is seven and of course a son jeffrey who is 6. if either one gets out of control with there mother, coaches, or teachers they are getting a but whoopin, if they get out of control with me forget the but whooping we are going the displine the hard way, who knows at that time what it might be.

try this, if you do or don't spank your child, give them a free but whoopin tonite even if they did nothing wrong, because you know they got away with somthing some time.

alot of people say hitting a punching bag releases stress.
but look you have to drive to the store buy a bag then hang it up, get gloves, aint it much easier to have a couple of your kids stand there while you beat them, it's cheaper still releases the stress and makes your kids tougher. win win for everyone.

JEFFREY AND ASPYN GET YOU BUT'S IN THE BASEMENT I HAVE SOME STRESS TO RELEASE. don;'t call the srs i am just kidding i don't have a basement.

I'll show you kids that never got "hit" that are good kids, and kids that never got "hit" that are bad kids.

I'll also show you kids that got "hit" that are good kids, and kids that got "hit" that are good kids.

NOONE can tell me for sure if their good behavior was related to spanking, or if their bad behavior was related to spanking.

Today's media always makes it a point to make excuses for kids that behave badly, and inevitable, there will be a mention, whether fact or fiction, of something along the lines of "we don't know if he was abused as a child or what". Possibly, he didn't get "abused" enough, but you won't hear the media say that EVER.

We should give our kids everything they NEED, not everything they WANT. We should discipline our kids the way we see fit, without allowing them to become a burden on society because of a lack of discipline.

My kids should become worried when I quit disciplining them, cause at that point I have ceased to give a Sh*t!!!

100% agree with you doug747

Very well stated Chief Renegade!// Eric.

There are those times when abuse is simply abuse any way you put it.

Haven't we all been "abused" then?

The problem that Beeson is probably pointing out, is that you stand to take a kid away from a family for jumping to conclusions. You may think you are doing him a favor, but trust me, 9 times out of 10 the kid is much much better off in his own home, instead of foster care. And in cases where people jump to conclusions over nothing, 10 times out of 10 they are better off at their real home.

There is no book on parenting that is correct, only what is correct in your home. We all succeed and fail as parents, and it is a learning experience.

I am sick of the press leaning so heavily in favor of no corporal punishment. It is always the "spanking's" fault, but never the "lack of spankings" fault.

One quick point to highlight. I too agree with correcting inappropriate behavior and would advocate more of it in today’s society. However, I can’t think of any justification for physically or verbally abusing a child based on their performance in a match. Just because you think they should have won is no reason to belittle or worse, physically punish the kid because they didn’t meet your expectation. Unfortunately I have witnessed this several times over the years and in my opinion this is child abuse and has no place in any sport.

all joking aside i do agree there are those that do take it to the extreme when there kids loses a match, i have always felt if you never lost a wrestling match or made a mistake in a wrestling match then maybe you have the right to demand perfection from your child.

but if you have lost or made a mistake that i believe we all have, then you have no right to yell or abuse your child for making a mistake or losing.

but like i have witnessed a few time a kid coming of the mat throwing there head gear or not shaking the other coaches hand. if my son was to act this way i would smack him in the back of the head, he would pick his head gear up or shake the coaches hand. then we would go have a talk about it away from all to hear. i also do believe the punishment must meet the crime or rule that was broken not overboard.

Deal with my 'one-eyed men' argument first please.

Or, if you'd like another example - the Bible says that God is invisible. Yet, it also talks about the arm of the Lord. How do you reconcile the two? One is literal and one is figurative.

Context (and our own faulty thinking and prejudices) dictate how one interprets a passage.

Anyone that thinks they have a monopoly on the way the literature of any sort should be interrupted is silly. That is what makes it great - that it can be viewed and seen and thought about in different ways. Kind of like a many faceted diamond.

The word and concept of 'mystery' is in the Bible for a very good reason . . .

And . . .

Proverbs 26:

3 A whip for the horse, a halter for the donkey,
and a rod for the backs of fools!

4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
or you will be like him yourself.

5 Answer a fool according to his folly,
or he will be wise in his own eyes.

So, what do we do with verses four and five? Why they seem to be in DIRECT contradiction with each other. The answer? CONTEXT of the situation that you are in/have been in.

Verse 3 - I'm sure all of us adults have acted like a 'fool' at least ONCE this year (For me, its several times daily). So, who gives us the ROD? Frequency? Intensity? Duration?

Something to think about . . .

Don't fret. No more Bible-thumping from me. If you want to talk about these concepts further, PM or email me.

Thanks.

Dean

By the way. We have checked with childrens services and it is NOT illegal to spank your child. I told my husband not to tell people we spanked our kids because they would be taken away. So of course he set out to prove me wrong. After several calls and many hours he did get confirmation that you may spank your children. So next time you want to threaten to turn someone in for 'abusing' their child, just remember that the law is on OUR side.

Mary,

If you are speaking to me -- I never said anything about wanting to turn someone in . . . and I never said anything about it being 'illegal to spank your child.'

And, is the law on YOUR side if a spanking is excessive and leaves marks for several days and the kid can't even sit comfortably for several weeks (I have seen this - having been a public educator over the last 20 years)? Again, duration and intensity of the spanking - don't you think the law would take those things into account? Believe me, they do.

I not accusing you of doing the above -- I'm just saying that a blanket statement that the LAW is on OUR side proves little to nothing until one defines what is an 'acceptable spanking' and therefore legal spanking vs. what is an 'unacceptable spanking' and therefore illegal spanking.

If you choose to whack your kids occasionally -- so be it. As already mentioned by me here - that doesn't mean we couldn't be friends simply because I don't choose to whack mine.

As the first Martin Luther said:

"On essentials - unity. On non-essentials - diversity. In all things -- love."

Its ESSENTIAL that we all raise our kids to the best of our limited abilities. That we do not violate our own conscience in this lengthy and challenging process.

NON-ESSENTIAL are the differing ways (DIVERSITY - some spank/some don't) we get down the same path (raising responsible kids into productive/joyful adults who are resilient).

And that we do it all in LOVE.

I have no problem agreeing to disagree on our methods. Civilly.

Take care.

Dean

Agree. Losses make you better, as long as you gave it all you had.

I don't eat meat on Fridays during Lent, and am hoping that is enough to get me in the Big Dance on High, so the Bible passages weren't brought up by me, and I sure don't want to get in a Bible quoting contest. I have a hard time staying awake during the sermon, cause I got home late from Wrestling the night before, so that is an unfair fight.

Amen. We got to teach our kids how to BOUNCE BACK STRONG from their defeats. Not to let their defeats haunt them . . .

Resiliency is one of the key components of a happy/well-adjusted life . . .

I guess I dont see what the big deal is about spanking your kids..I was spanked as was my parents and their parents I think that the youth of today might not do as much wrong doing if more parents spanked still but so many are afraid of the child abuse standard..for instance my family and I were eating at Wendys and my son threw a fit over ketchup my husband told him if you dont stop I goin to give u something to cry about a older lady came up to him and said if you hit that kid i will call the cops My husband responded go right ahead lady because when I get out if he acts up again he will get a spanking again..child abuse is not right but its a far cry from discipline..

These are just the state laws and USAWKS rules. They can be changed but you have to go through the appropriate steps to get them changed. I did not make them.


USAWKS - Kids
SECTION I: BY-LAWS
ARTICLE I – NAME, ADDRESS, FISCAL YEAR
1. Name – The name of the organization shall be United States of America Wrestling Association – Kansas, Inc. Kids Division. In addition, the organization may conduct its affairs under such trade name(s) as may be approved by its Executive Council, including but not limited to the name USAWA-Kansas Kids.
2. Address – The principal office of the organization in the state of Kansas shall be located at the current Executive Director's address.
3. Fiscal Year – The fiscal year of the organization shall begin on the first (1st) day of September in each year.

2. State Body
a. Rules which directly impact the actions of the mat official during competition – may be amended on a two-thirds vote of the State Body, provided that at least fifty-five percent (55%) of all voting representatives of the state are present. These rules may be amended at any annual State Body meeting or at any special State Body meeting when the proposed amendment has been sent out in the notice of such meeting. Upon approval by the State Body under this provision, the amendment will become effective in the next subsequent fiscal year.
b. All other rules under this Section –shall follow the same guidelines as those found in Section I, Article IX of this Constitution. The principal distinction is that rules changes that do not directly impact the actions of the mat official during competition shall become effective immediately.

Rule 8-1-5 An official ejection will follow an official warning, except in the case of flagrant misconduct. Anyone officially ejected from a tournament must leave the building, and will not be allowed to participate in or attend any other sanctioned tournaments. This sanction shall be effective for:
First Occurrence – Eight (8) days
Second Occurrence – Twenty four (24) days
Third Occurrence – One (1) calendar year from date of ejection

SECTION II: DISCIPLINE


f. Abusive language or unsportsmanlike conduct by a contestant, spectator, coach, table worker, or official