What ever happend to having unlimited heavy weights? As mentioned before kids are growing bigger and stronger and may not be able to lose the weight. Is that an option at all? Just a question that ive had.

If you�re too fat to put the singlet on you shouldn't step on the mat. Lose a little weight you will be healthier for doing it in the long run.

My point was there will always be discrepancies in the way weight classes are created. They have evolved over the years and will continue to evolve as our athletes grow bigger and stronger. We do not need more weight classes in Kansas. Either win the wrestle off or switch schools that has an opening at your weight.
My teammate did not focus on the weight he always seemed to give up, but on winning. To be great at any sport, sacrifices must be made by the athletes.

Jonthan:

We are talking high school here not the NFL. Is switching high schools that easy in Goodland, Kansas?

Most of the heavier kids that they are talking about are not going to switch high schools. They would choose not to wrestle instead. The intent is to keep them wrestling by creating more opportunity for them.

If you want more openings for wrestlers then just go to the Montana system that gives teams more roster spots as previously talked about in another thread. Adding more weights will just water down the quality of wrestling.

Hoe so on either one.. In Kansas, the Montan system brings in JV kids to wrestle in varsity matches and tournaments. That probably waters the field. Perhaps the same thing happeens with more brackets--but more brackets possibly brings more quality wrestlers to the smaller weight differiential bracket. What is sacred about the eighteen lbs between 171 and 189, or 26 pounds between 189 and 215, or 70 pounds between 215 and 285. I probably do not need to say this but few of those big big heavy weights really wrestle. They are more sumo than folk style. They push, and shove, and hand fight and may try an arm and head--then most times the defensive wrestler slips his head out, the offensive falls flat out on his stomach, and the guy in the rear falls on the guys back--then they lay there rocking back and forth. Zlatnik, Disney, and Finney were a littl/a lot more aggressive. But, you do not see that often in heavy weights. So, if the big guys want to FAT" each other out, lets have some smaller brackets for wrestlers.

How so on either one.. In Kansas, the Montan system brings in JV kids to wrestle in varsity matches and tournaments. That probably waters the field. Perhaps the same thing happeens with more brackets--but more brackets possibly brings more quality wrestlers to the smaller weight differiential brackets. What is sacred about the eighteen lbs between 171 and 189, or 26 pounds between 189 and 215, or 70 pounds between 215 and 285. I probably do not need to say this but few of those big big heavy weights really wrestle. They are more sumo than folk style. They push, and shove, and hand fight and may try an arm and head--then most times the defensive wrestler slips his head out, the offensive falls flat out on his stomach, and the guy in the rear falls on the guys back--then they lay there rocking back and forth. Zlatnik, Disney, and Finney were a littl/a lot more aggressive. But, you do not see that often in heavy weights. So, if the big guys want to FAT" each other out, lets have some smaller brackets for wrestlers.

If a HS kid can't wrestle because he is above 285 he is too fat. Seriously. How many good athletes are above that and can't get there? .1 percent? Contrarian, Contrary to your thoughts, I DO believe that winning a dual is a team thing and not a coach thing. I don't think that you get that point. I am TIRED of hearing that wrestling is an individual sport, with individual glory, and your thoughts indicate that. Leave is as it is. And no, I am not following the status quo, I honestly feel that it is the best thing for wrestling.

Ok. So I gather that you do not agree that there is merit in more brackets to draw more wrestlers, to strengthen HS wrestling, which seems to be what a lot of posters on this page desire. I think all of us want the best for wrestling, what ever that is.
Wrestling is both an individual and a team sport. When it is match time it is kid against kid. At that point, the coach is just another spectator. If your individuals wrestlers don't do good, the team does not do good. I personnally was up set when a poster stated nothing would get done because coaches and ADs did not want changes. To hell with coaches and ADs, it is the kids' sport, and it is the sport of parents who support their kids. Coaches and ADs can be replaced, and if it is their philosphy, ie, it is their sport to control, they shoul hit the road, because they are doing nothing to advance the sport. In fact, they are detrimental to the sport--and to their kids.

Thanks for you comment.

Sorry, but wrestling is the ultimate individual sport. When you are on the mat your teamates cannot help you. Sure they can help you prepare for that moment in practice but when it comes to crunch time, it is up to the individual. There is no left tackle to pick up the slack for a struggling guard or a center fielder to flag down a fly ball for a pitcher. When you are on your back, it is up to you and no one else can help you right then. Sorry but that defines individual sport. Wrestling is more like the olympics. There are a bunch of individual events and the team with the most gold medals is considered the best in the world because they can probably throw more people into more events, but what is remembered more? Michael Phelps for winning 8 gold medals or the USA winning the overall medal count? Boaz Beard for being a 4 time state champion or Goddard winning team state? I will go with Phelps and Beard.

Every kid has the opportunity to wrestle. They just might not have an opportunity to wrestle on varsity. I'm sorry but if they aren't good enough to be on varsity there is no sense putting them out there to get beat anyway. I have know many wrestlers who were just happy to be on the team. We don't need to go around changing weight class numbers just so someone can go around and proclaim they are on varsity, thats not what the sport is about, its about participation period. If you won't go out for a team just because you can't make varsity, then you've missed the point all together.

I pretty much agree with you on this, Ricky Bobby. I like the Montana system or a modified version like the NAIA system better than adding weight classes to give wrestlers more opportunities to compete at the varsity level. I like the Montana or NAIA system better because they would offer more opportunities for wrestlers potentially at all weight classes. A team may not be stacked with state placing quality wrestlers at the heavier weights like Wichita Northwest and Olathe North were this season. They could be stacked at the middle weights say 140, 145, and 152. In the NAIA system that team could send two wrestlers each in 140, 145 and 152.

However, I do also agree with the basic intent of Contrarian in this topic of improving the excessive weight differentials that we now see in our heaviest weight classes. I have been an advocate of this on this forum and the national forum for the last three years. I think Contrarian's suggestion of going to 20 weight classes is not realistic. First of all Kansas is unlikely to add one weight class like Texas has done with its 180 division unless it is done on the national level. The impetus on the national level unfortunately seems to be more towards reducing weight classes to 12 or 11 instead of adding weight classes. I think the best hope that an advocate of lower weight differentials has is that the current total of 14 weight classes remains in effect and that the weight classs are realigned slightly upward. I think you could have a final seven weight classes of 158, 167, 178, 190, 205, 225 and 275 with small adjustments to the first seven weight classes. I believe the differential between the highest weight class and the next highest should be no more than 50 pounds in high school. I agree with Contrarian that the 70 diffential between 215 and 285 is just too much for high school kids. I know many advocates for heavier wrestlers would disagree with me in lowering the max weight from the current 285 to our old 275 maximum of about four years ago. My reason is to keep the differentials down in the 12th and 13th weight class and still maintain no more than a 50 weight diffential between the 13th and 14th weight class. It is also closer with the international weight class maximum of around 264 pounds.

I put the number 20 up to initiate a discussion. In that sense it was successful. A little strong in some posts, but all are good, thought out comments.

Reference Husker Fan's last comment, I find it very difficult to believe that anyone anywhere is advocating reducing the number of HS weight brackets. Makes absolutely no sense to me. I would like to read the rationale if some one has a web address where it is being discussed.

The Montana system has its merits, so do several other systems. Montana adopted their system because of their low number of schools (lots of land few people). If they did not allow double team entries they could not have a system of qualifying regional/divisional tournaments. Two points about the Montana system. #1, the 2d team of wrestlers they are entering are by definition 2d team/JV wrestlers. Agreed, some of these JV wrestler will beat some varsity wrestlers from other schools--gonna happen!. Point #2. How do you seed JV into a varsity tournament. I can hear the cat fight now. Coach #1--"my freshman JV is undefeated at 10 and 0 (100%), and should be seeded higher than that senior wrestler with a 24 and 6 record (80%)". Coach #2-- "B--L S--T"!!!!! The solution may have to be a coaches wrestle off.

Now, as for the number of brackets. What is a "more" realistic number of brackets to best improve HS wrestling--if the number of brackets are Important? Something must be important if wrestlers/ex-wrestlers, fans, coaches , refs, and others seem to agree that something needs to be done to bring more kids into the wrestling room- or the sport is going to wither and possibly die at many scools and communities. I opened with 20 brackets, other called, raised, or dropped out. If 20 is not the number, what is-thats the problem. If more brackets may be needed , each of us has an idea on how the brackets are split. My idea is primarily leave everything below 160 alone. Now, before we can bracket, who are we trying to attract to wrestling. I don't think we are getting the HS football players into wrestling--the 170 and up kids. Back in the day you played football, then BB or wrestling , and in the spring baseball or track. Today kids are specialist, participating in one sport. Why? One reason is coaches make them do that. I know several coaches who tell their kids if you play X sport you can't play on my Y team---"you need to go to camps or play our Y sport in the off season on a club or AAU team". Happens!!! Pushy dad's who think junior is an potential All State/All American are also guilty of steering their student athletes to only one sport. HS sports are HS sports, and very few HS athletes are going on to college or the pros. So/ lets encourage them to participate in multiple HS sports. To me that equates to having a system you can recruit kids into. In wrestling, that may be more brackets with smaller splits. As for the bigger guys, I personally would not want any weight split over 25 or 30 pounds, and then only one at the very top 260 to 285). Novak makes a very good point. Why is the HS top weight 285 and the international top weight 264. Where does the US college heavyweights top out?

Enough said. All comment valid and all comments appreciated. What ever you position--keep it going!!!

I put the number 20 up to initiate a discussion. In that sense it was successful. A little strong in some posts, but all are good, thought out comments.

Reference Husker Fan's last comment, I find it very difficult to believe that anyone anywhere is advocating reducing the number of HS weight brackets. Makes absolutely no sense to me. I would like to read the rationale if some one has a web address where it is being discussed.

The Montana system has its merits, so do several other systems. Montana adopted their system because of their low number of schools (lots of land few people). If they did not allow double team entries they could not have a system of qualifying regional/divisional tournaments. Two points about the Montana system. #1, the 2d team of wrestlers they are entering are by definition 2d team/JV wrestlers. Agreed, some of these JV wrestler will beat some varsity wrestlers from other schools--gonna happen!. Point #2. How do you seed JV into a varsity tournament. I can hear the cat fight now. Coach #1--"my freshman JV is undefeated at 10 and 0 (100%), and should be seeded higher than that senior wrestler with a 24 and 6 record (80%)". Coach #2-- "B--L S--T"!!!!! The solution may have to be a coaches wrestle off.

Now, as for the number of brackets. What is a "more" realistic number of brackets to best improve HS wrestling--if the number of brackets are Important? Something must be important if wrestlers/ex-wrestlers, fans, coaches , refs, and others seem to agree that something needs to be done to bring more kids into the wrestling room- or the sport is going to wither and possibly die at many scools and communities. I opened with 20 brackets, other called, raised, or dropped out. If 20 is not the number, what is-thats the problem. If more brackets may be needed , each of us has an idea on how the brackets are split. My idea is primarily leave everything below 160 alone. Now, before we can bracket, who are we trying to attract to wrestling. I don't think we are getting the HS football players into wrestling--the 170 and up kids. Back in the day you played football, then BB or wrestling , and in the spring baseball or track. Today kids are specialist, participating in one sport. Why? One reason is coaches make them do that. I know several coaches who tell their kids if you play X sport you can't play on my Y team---"you need to go to camps or play our Y sport in the off season on a club or AAU team". Happens!!! Pushy dad's who think junior is an potential All State/All American are also guilty of steering their student athletes to only one sport. HS sports are HS sports, and very few HS athletes are going on to college or the pros. So/ lets encourage them to participate in multiple HS sports. To me that equates to having a system you can recruit kids into. In wrestling, that may be more brackets with smaller splits. As for the bigger guys, I personally would not want any weight split over 25 or 30 pounds, and then only one at the very top 260 to 285). Novak makes a very good point. Why is the HS top weight 285 and the international top weight 264. Where does the US college heavyweights top out?

Enough said. All comments valid and all comments appreciated. What ever you position--keep it going!!!

Contrarian,

College weight tops out at 285 and the weight differential is even worse from that to the next lowest class which is only 197 in college. This is a 88 pound differential. I think college needs to change too to reflect a difference between the second highest and highest weight classes that would be closer to the international weight divisions of approximately 212 and 264 in their two heaviest weight classes. The NCWA college club division does have an additional weight class at 235.

I bumped up the Minnesota considering switching to 12 weight classes topic from about two years ago so you could see their rationale of potentially dropping to twelve weight classes. I believe one of our Kansas high school coaches also advocated a reduction in total weight classes a couple of years ago in a topic.

What happened to the days when you could tell a kid- hey you are not the best and have to work your way to the top-

adding more weights so all the kids feel good about being varsity might be a bit much for me to handle.

To be the best in the state you have to first be the bes tin your school- I have no trouble with a great wrestle wrestling JV if he cant be the varsity kid

Agreed, Scooby, this is how the best programs "reload".

Scooby:

I do not think Contrarian's topic and intent to add more weight classes is meant for making kids feel good about being varsity. I think Contrarian is saying that the 70 pound differntial between 215 and 285 is too great of a percentage change.

Now the two alternative systems (Montana and the NAIA system) would have the objective of giving more than one opportunity in a weight class for a school to compete at the varsity level.

You say you have no problem with great wrestlers wrestling JV if they cannot beat the varsity kid. There actually were two such situations that I know of this year. First at Wichita Northwest where they had the returning State champions from 2008 in Kyle Caylor 215 and Brock Heithaus at 285. They also had a returning state qualifier in Trey Page 189 in 2008 who had grown into a heavyweight in 2009. The way it worked out Heithaus got hurt and Page was able to wrestle heavyweight instead. Page ended up second at State 285 6A which Heithaus had won the year before. Chief Renegade has Page ranked 5th all class in his final rankings. There is little doubt that Heithaus would have also been at this level if he had been able to defend his state title this year. You are saying that this doesn't bother you that one of the top six 285 guys in the state would not be able to wrestle varsity just because they both go to the same school? Personally I view that as a shortcoming in high school wrestling.

Olathe North also had both Lucas Vincent 2009 State Champion and #1 ranked in Chief's All Class rankings and Oliver Venegas on their squad at the beginning of the year. Oliver's brother is a former state champion and Oliver is an All State football player. I believe Oliver would also have been a high state placer and most likely have also made Chief's top ten list. I think these type of kids deserve the opportunity to compete at the high school varsity level just like two 60 foot shot putters from the same school have the oppotunity to compete for the state title in track & field. The Montana or NAIA system would allow for it to happen.

Tom,

In the two examples I gave in the previous post there is no possibility of reloading. All of the wrestlers are in the same junior class. They will all be seniors next year and possibly could face the same situation if they all end up coming out for wrestling next year.

Yes Vince, in the two examples you gave that wouldn't happen. Sorry. I was generally referring to, say a sophomore, at 119, who was surrounded by a better 112 and 125 pounder who would have to "bide his time" on JV...
While having two 285# that are both state quality caliber is unusual, it is unfortunate that this is happening at Olathe North and Wichita Northwest.
I wasn't speaking about any kid in particular, just making a generalization.