Mr. Juby,

I have done NOTHING but state the facts. I am asking questions to gain a FULL understanding of the situation. YOU jumped to the conclusion of a cover up in your response. EVERYONE wants to know where the money is going not just Will Cokeley. You name one question that I have asked that is not with merit or should not be answered so that EVERYONE knows what is happening.

I have ALWAYS thought you were one of the most ethical and honest people in this organization. I did not accuse you of lieing or creating a cover-up. However, you DID NOT state that you were paying Kathy $.50 per card in your post that outlined where the $30 was being allocated. I simply pointed that out to you. Call it what you want it was NOT disclosed and I am guessing NO ONE in general membership had any idea that she was paid $5,250 last year.

My goal is to do what is best for Kansas wrestling and that has ALWAYS been our common ground. I don't get paid one cent for my time either. I am never going to ask to get paid and if I feel like my time would be better spent elsewhere that is where I will take my time. The FAIR way to handle this position is to have the work bid on not just arbitrarily hand it over to someone. Each district could share in the work so it wouldn't be such a burden. I just think there are better ideas and I think most will agree that this was decided in a very closed off manner. Yet and still Mike there are some VALID questions that need to be answered and I think you might be the ONLY one that can answer them:

How much would an online competitors card cost if purchased online, directly from USA Wrestling?

If Kansans purchased their cards online, like the majority of states, would any of those funds be funneled back to Kansas?

Why is the online fee $5? Where does that money go?

Why is an AAU card only $12 when purchased online if it costs $5 to perform this action?

Why don't other states want to do exactly what we are doing?

Why doesn't USA Wrestling MAKE us do what the majority are doing?

Mike

I am glad that this has finally come public. I would have to agree with Sportsfan that Kathy is worth every penny. She has bailed me out of a lot of situations that I have gotten my self into, But the simple fact is the position that she is doing with the registrations is more than likely a shot term job. Yes I do understand the amount of money we are saving our membership but can’t see how we can pay a volunteer a salary to do the registrations which will sooner or later be mandatory to do online by USAW.

Please don’t get me wrong if this was the way that we had to do our registrations I would definitely be in favor of compensating someone for this grueling job. But if I understand you right we will at some point have to find a different way to find the funds that we give to all of the different levels in our division. If that is the case I think we should start now not later.

Just my thoughts.

Tuff

Tuff,

I hope you're not suggesting that discussions by our boards are private information and not open to the public. As you should know as well as anyone, I've always been a proponent of making everything that we do as transparent as possible.

The point you are making here is the same one that you made to the corporate board and Executive Council. The counter argument, and one that I voiced, was that moving to online cards this year would result in a $40 card (a $10 increase) because of the additional $5 service charge on online registrations. I don't think this is what our membership would prefer.

You are undoubtedly correct that USAW will ultimately require all memberships to be done online. Personally, I don’t think that is going to happen for at least a couple of years. In the meantime, we are saving our members $5 per card. I think that’s a benefit we should take advantage of, even if it’s only for the next 2-3 years.

Mr. Juby,

And I am calling you that because there are lots of Mikes out there.

You are trying to make me the bad guy here and that is wrong. You had the opportunity to post EVERYTHING immediately after it was decided. In fact, isn't it prudent to post that this season's cards will be $35 before the date they are to go on sale? You show me where I have stepped out of bounds with any question or made any comment, given the facts and lack of public disclosure. It is sad that you "don't care" what the rank and file members of your organization wonder and think.

This year USA Wrestling increased the cost of a competitors card to $21 while coaches remain at $20.

Club registration fee was increased from $40 to $55.

Tournament Sanctions were increased from $25 to $40.

To me it would have been a no brainer to allow those latter two increases to pass on through to our membership. To a club a $15 charter increase would be much less than a $1 per competitor.

The sanction fee is paid when a club operates a tournament as a fundraiser. $15 more dollars is 15 people at the gate for $1 or 15 more $1 raffle tickets or simply an increase in expenses. When clubs are making thousands of dollars from their volunteer efforts the $15 is not going to make a meaningful impact to their bottom line. I would guarantee that not one club would decide to discontinue hosting a tournament over this $15 increase.

This brings us to the USA Cards.

The fact that everyone needs to understand is that a USA Wrestling Card is only $20 for a coach and $21 for a competitor. The additional $15 and $14 go to USA Kansas wrestling. In effect, you are paying for a USA card and a Kansas card but it is delivered as one. Given this, we will pay, based on last year's estimates posted by you, $218,700 for coach and competitor cards to USA wrestling. Kansas will retain $148,800 to use for our programs or to be allocated to whatever. These figures are based upon the use of the present spreadsheet system. One where clubs complete a spreadsheet, email them to Kathy, Kathy reviews them and assigns card numbers, and then uploads this data from Excel into the USA Wrestling database.

All states add on to the cost of the USA card an amount determined by their state organization. The overwhelming majority of states use themat.com to sell their cards online. USA wrestling tags on a $5 charge (this in effect makes their cards $26) for using the online system. These funds are used to absorb the credit card fee and cover the costs of other USA programs.

So, our cards could be as low as $26 if sold online without any Kansas dues being tacked on. If you back out the $2 you are recommending/and have gotten approved then the impact to have online cards would only be $3.

The majority of states and eventually all states will be REQUIRED to eat the $5 online fee and use themat.com to purchase cards through.

This is what I was able to discover from other leaders.

The bottom line, we could have raised the sanction fees and charter fees with little impact to the individuals. Subsequently we could have made the cards $31 and continue as we did last year or $36 and allowed online purchasing without all of the crazy accounting.

This will all roll back to: why do we pay $7000 for a bus to Fargo, why do we give $3000 to this camp, $10,000 to that group, etc... We have not, as an organization, been prudent about cutting costs and programs. Our spending goes up and the "tax" methods we choose can be questioned. We could make more money off of tournaments where our membership is getting a product instead of raising card prices that basically tax everyone not just those who are getting something for their dollars.

USA Kansas wrestling's strength has always come from the rank and file because we are a volunteer organization. I hate to see it start to become "I do this so I need to get paid." organization. If it does, it will not be around very much longer.

I am writing all of this because I DO CARE and I want this organization to outlast both of us.

As a member of the Corporate Board I voted in favor of the $5.00 Competitors Card increase and stated I believed our Membership Director, based on the number of hours committed to ensuring our members received their respective cards in a timely manner, was underpaid for the position.

Richard, why didn't you take a cut of the money you recovered for District 2 a few years back? I know you spent a ton of time that noone else was willing to spend, to make things right. I've always admired you for what you did there.

I'm not going to sit here and volunteer to do Kathy's job for nothing, but Will raises valid points about the volunteer basis of our organization. If someone else did it for free, would we run the risk of getting what we pay for? Possibly. I just wonder what kind of luck you'll have when you start asking for volunteers for running the state tourney, when others get paid, or get expenses paid, to "volunteer" at a state sponsored event like Kids' State. You'll hear a cry of hypocrisy at some point.

I do like the idea of online registration. What with Trackwrestling, online registration in Oklahoma series tourneys, Roller tourneys, why don't we get current with the times? I see some tie in with Trackwrestling as a way to purchase USA cards. Then that wrestler's info is in the trackwrestling system and the USA wrestling system, and it would make it easier to enter them in tourneys as well. (except for our end of year qualifying tourneys, which for some reason we aren't allowed to use the "wrestler number" that Trackwrestling assigns each kid)

I'm not tech guy, but all of the duplication of data entry is ridiculous, when we have the means to do it once at the beginning of the year, and then only need to type in that wrestler number and weight class to enter kids in tourneys from there on out. The USA cards could surely be made a part of this, and Trackwrestling only charges $.50 per entry!!!

My two cents worth. Maybe someone smarter than me can comment on tying our USA registration and trackwrestling registration together.

Doug

I also like the idea of online registration. So what if it costs $5 a card more. If we went to online registration wouldn't that considerably reduce Kathy's workload. If it did would we still pay her $2 a card. If we didn't pay her then it would only be a $3 increase. The way we do registration now is ridiculous, why not join modern times? It's time usa wrestling kansas actually talked to their membership instead of just assuming what they want. But hey if we went online then the Juby's would take a $21,000 hit in their bank account, so lets do it the old way as long as possible, maybe mike wants to buy a boat.
I would do it for $1.75 a card, if this is a paid position why not put it for bid.

There are a number of important issues being raised in this thread. However, lets start with what I thought was the purpose of this threa - how do I get a card for my son for the Fall Brawl without giving Missouri any money. Last year I had to buy my card in Missouri. This really bothered me. I grew up on the Missouri/KU border and I hate Missouri. Now Will said if I had just called him he would have gotten my son a card. But, why is it Will's job to get all the Kansas kids, who's clubs are not up and running that early in the year, a card so they can compete in early tournaments. Its alot of work, and he doesn't charge extra. Sorry for the tacky comment, but we need a system to allow the early starters an opportunity to buy cards in September. Last year I contacted Kathy about this, and was told not possible, I had to go thru a club. This, and the old policy on coach's passes, has resulted in people chartering clubs just for their own kid and a few friends.

Doug makes a good point, what about a tie-in with track wrestling.

Second, the issue of paying someone a salary. Yes, that is what it appears to me. Now I know she is working hard. I was the secretary/treasurer of my local union for a number of years and know the extra time you put in. We got a small amount each month to cover out of pocket expenses. That was it. If you go over that you start running into regulations involving with-holding for Social Security and other taxes. Not knowing how much work Kathy does, I am in no position to judge if the $2 a card is appropriate or not. But, I hope the state body has covered itself in regards to any tax obligations we may have assumed by doing this.

Third, I have read all of Will's posts on this, I think he is just asking reasonable questions. They have been somewhat answered, but not completely. Maybe a full posting of the monthly expenditures would help. At least they should go to the club presidents.

Finally, from my limited viewpoint - as just the father of a kid who wrestles - I think USA Kansas Wrestling does a good job. I do not want to see a whole lot of changes. But, we have to be careful - we will make this sport so expensive to get started in that alot of people will stop trying it. We will begin limiting our growth just by cost. We want High School kids to stay out for our state series - well $35 for a card, then club fees, for what, 4 tournaments at most(assuming they only do in state tournaments). A lot are not going to do it. TOO expensive. However, we need the state to make money and help cover the costs of things like Middle School Duals and the freestyle duals, or only certain kids will be able to go. This requires a balancing act, that does not allow for a lot of perks for our board. Its about the kids!!!

Richard, you voted for the increase - due to someone being under paid - what club coach or official isn't. That is why its called being a volunteer.

Will's last post really hit it, thats alot of money - $148,000 - should be enough to do it all without alot of increases.

Despite insinuations by Will Cokeley that we were trying to do something underhanded, I have always intended on providing information on the increase and the reasons for this increase in the club packets (which we had already prepared). The district directors, who have been involved in this decision and are aware of the issues, would be able to carry out discussions at their district meetings. Then, at the state body meeting, I would respond to any concerns or questions from any member. This procedure has worked well for us in the past, and I expected it to do so again.

While I believe this forum to be an invaluable asset for our state and our sport, I do not believe it works well for making decisions on matters like this. It is difficult to really ascertain whether comments are coming from a vocal minority or truly represent the will of our members.

Having said that, when I saw that Will had requested information on the use of our funds, I believed it appropriate and important to attempt to answer his request. His request for a COMPLETE (his emphasis) breakdown was unreasonable due to the large number of transactions that our state office processes in a single year (out of curiosity I just checked Quickbooks and found that there were 3970 transactions last year). However, I did my best to provide answers to what I thought he was asking. It was only after he questioned my integrity that I decided to desist from any further attempt to respond to his posts.

If these posts truly represent the will of the general membership, I would not oppose having the board revisit our decision. However, I would first question the underlying assumption being made: that our nonprofit organization does not pay for services. Is this true for the officials that we use every week at our tournaments? Is this true for the coaches that work at our camps in the summer? Clearly, we have certain jobs where it is not deemed appropriate or feasible to expect volunteers to do all the work for nothing.

Nationwide, most states with any significant membership have a paid staff person(s) handling these duties. Before the board considered this proposal, I checked with other states and found that the stipend we were considering for Kathy was on par with those states. Furthermore, it seemed like a slam dunk to spend $2, for which Kathy does much more than just process cards, instead of spending $5, for which we don’t get anything else.

If there are specific questions that you have, ask them and I will try to get an answer posted.

mike,
I dont think you should have a vote on this issue. It is a conflict of interest. I still think we should go to online registration, maybe let the clubs vote on this at the state body meeting. I have been to the last five or six state meetings and the membership was never informed that Kathy was getting 50 cents a card, where was this info at in the financial report. Now in this economy the state board voted to increase her stipend by 75%. I am sure there are a lot of qualified unemployed or underemployed data entry clerks that would do this job for less. Maybe it's time we hired an outside source to do an independant audit of usawks books to make sure everything is kosher. With that being said I hope you and Kathy enjoy your $15,000 raise this year I am sure it will help out with the new house.

This isn't about me. Quit trying to make it so. I made no decisions, I didn't get to vote, I didn't even know the facts, I just heard a rumor and given that cards SHOULD go on sale on September 1 it was timely and pertinent to find out what was going on. You put yourself in this position. I asked questions and received VAGUE answers. You are now attempting to discredit my attempt to give transparency and clarity by saying "this is how we have always done it..." We have NEVER paid a member of our organization other than an officials and some coaches. MOST coaches do their jobs for free. The card process is MUCH easier now that the clubs have to prepare the information in a spreadsheet so why the move to pay now? Why not put it up for bid or ask if others want to help out? The discussion was rushed, from the accounts I have been able to gather, and not complete. You would have to officiate nearly 150 tournaments or every weekend for 10 years to earn $21,000. I have done NOTHING wrong here but try to give this topic the exposure it needed. The state body meeting is too late. It was important enough to be addressed through an informal, online meeting that I am still uncertain as to whether it is approved by the corporate board's bylaws, then why wouldn't you email every club director and post it on the home page if you didn't want it in the talk forum.

Mike,
I will state again that i will handle registrations for $1.75 a card that would be a savings of $2625. Why not put this up for bid instead of just handing it to your wife. I know a lot of people that would do this for less than $21,000 a season. This smells of a coverup and yes your integrity is being called into question. No one was informed last year that your wife was making 50 cents for each card she processed. This was not discussed at the state meeting last year and I cannot find it in last years financial report. If Will had not brought this up would you have covered up the $2 fee this year? It is time to get the state books audited by an outside source,The membership has the right to know where every penny is going and apparantly you are not telling us.

Tom Baughman

I would like to see this post during the wrestling season so everyone is aware of this discussion. After reading both sides of the post I certainly have questions about where or who our money is going to and also why Kansas isn't wiling to move to a faster online registration. This allocation of funds to a spouse, relative, or household member of someone who is directly in charge (or has a vote)is a gross case of conflict of interest which could cause major legal problems if someone wanted to cause some problems. I spend alot of time coaching for free beacuse I love the sport. Maybe I should drive up the cost of my club so I can get paid too. No harm intended, just an example.

Let's keep the discussion constructive! A lot of people put in
many many hours, club level, state level, and national level.
Just follow in someone elses foot steps to see what they are do
every day and night. I think Kansas has a GREAT State organization and they have improved every year since 1991. That is 18 years that I have seen many of the same faces working for your kids and my kids. Believe it or not - the NATIONAL MANDATORY COACHES background checks has increased the work load on our state folks and every state organization. I think that is a bigger time consumer per club than the cards. Hundreds of calls if not thousands of calls for new and old coaches - ONLY going into 1 or 2 people. The National background check firm wasn't prepared to answer questions - maybe they are now. Before everyone starts getting on each other - lets find a solution. I know I do not have an extra 20-40 free hours in a week to make a hundred calls, e-mails, answering coaches, club directors questions, upset parents and all the other various concerns. I'll make suggestion - start the volunteer list now. Who wants to handle every question and deal with the process just about the back ground checks. Please provide home phone, cell phone, work phone, e-mail, mailing address (must be available 24/7). Be prepared because I'll send 10-15 new coaches from STA Club asking you many many questions while playing phone tag, e-mail back and forth, etc. The information on background checks was available in print but tricky maze to get through it. I think it will be the same problem this year. Some people can not and will not read and follow the directions - that makes it ten times as hard to get the background check done. I follow up later - I need to let dog out.

I am back - Cross me off the volunteer list for Assistant Background Check Informant (ABCI). If I did have the ABCI job
(which I will not) - and people kept ripping on me with no solution I would seriously have problem actually helping those first. You might want to think about that - that is the way the world works. "You scratch my back - I'll scratch yours"
I would not respond on this forum to you either if I was the ABCI
helper person. I could not write what I was thinking on here either. Let's get along and work in the same direction. Got 2 go (G2G) dogs at the door again. That is right I said dogs as in 2 dogs - new puppy this year. Dogs will be twice as much work - so less free time to be the ABCI guy. Private message me if you have tons of free time I'll start a file and find something for you to do.

Coach Sean

Mike, you are absolutely right and this is not representative of the masses and is as you suggest, the "vocal minority". Those of us who have been with this organization for any length of time and routinely show up for the state meetings know the hours required at the excecutive level, and are glad to have someone like Kathy to do it. I know of no "volunteer" organization that doesn't have paid individuals doing the paperwork at the top. After all, are those people working in Colorado Springs doing it for nothing?


Mike I would suggest that this matter be left to discussions at the district and state meetings and thus each district can decide how much time they want to spend on it. Your first instinct when being called in effect dishonest, was the correct one. While difficult to let some of this name calling pass, it is often the best policy.

In tuff times, when most companies are not giving raises and even laying people off. Why are we given a raise to a volunteer? Just a thought!

James Cook

USA Kansas Wrestling is a Non-Profit organization 501-c something. USA Wrestling national is a non-profit organization, churchs are non profit organizations the NCAA is a non profit organization and they all have employees, many non-profits have thousands of volunteers, the American Red Cross is a nonprofit and each state has redcross offices with some paid employees. Somebody has to run these organizations and fill out tons of paper work to have the non-profit status. Every penny has to be counted. I have been a treasurer for a nonprofit that had 4 employees and a 30 person board - talk about a lot of bosses for 4 people doing the work. I am done with my comments on this. If you do not like what is going on - put your name in the hat and volunteer your time.

I think this is just more proof of why we need some changes at the top!
We need to move this program forward. I think the online registration, the non transpairency of monies, the fact that we continue to not look for a better place to hold our state tournament are all examples of us not trying to better ourselves.
Wasn't there even a post that talked about board members receiving gifts from the Topeka COC before the state vote.
This is a great state for wrestling. let's clean up a few messes and move forward!

Mr. Tracy:
I am not at the top however I am an elected officer of USAW Kansas Kids, Inc. and also serve on the Corporate Board. I will address several of your concerns.

Online registration will arrive in the future. USAW Kansas has an additional $5.00 per card surcharge in order to fund our other programs. The other programs include scholarship monies provided to the collegiate wrestling programs in the state, the womens program, the olympic wrestlng styles, etc.

At the annual meeting a financial statement for USA Kansas Wrestling and the Kids Division are included in the club packet provided to each club director. The financial statements are also available on the website.
USAW Kansas Kids
Profit and Loss
Fiscal Year Ending - 8/31/2008
Income
Entry Fees - $51,877.52
Camp Fees - $18,749.00
Certification Fees - $984.00
Gate Receipts - $26,468.13
Affiliate Programs -
Rebates - $1,830.00
Program Sales - $2,849.95
Dues - $3,430.00
Advertising - $1,607.50
Merchandise Sales - $1,879.45
Clocks -
Concessions - $4,992.50
Interest Income - $1,475.96
Contribution Income - $8,753.61
Total Income - $124,897.62
USAW Fees Paid -
Cost of Merchandise Sold - $6,167.80
Total Cost of Goods Sold - $6,167.80
Gross Profit - $118,729.82

Expenses
Meals - ($7,834.90)
Lodging - ($18,277.18)
Travel - ($7,433.84)
Rent - ($19,150.00)
Wrestlers' Gear - ($9,039.56)
Shirts and Other Gear - ($4,118.15)
Coaches - ($3,750.00)
Officials - ($9,700.00)
Tournament Expense - ($478.00)
Awards - ($8,975.00)
Entry Fees Paid - ($14,210.00)
Sanction Fees Paid -
Membership Fees - ($900.00)
Licenses -
Clinics / Tapes - ($4,990.00)
Printing and Copies - ($8,595.02)
Insurance -
Supplies - ($3,202.66)
Equipment -
Postage - ($961.90)
Telephone -
Meetings - ($1,831.33)
Promotions -
Rulesbooks - ($1,125.00)
Internet -
Contract Labor -
Bank Fees - ($108.60)
Miscellaneous - $179.55
Grants and Scholarships - ($18,874.00)
Total Expenses - ($143,375.59)
Net Income - ($24,645.77)

Fiscal Year Ending - 8/31/2007
Income
Entry Fees - $34,570.00
Camp Fees -
Certification Fees - $886.00
Gate Receipts - $31,341.47
Affiliate Programs -
Rebates - $2,946.00
Program Sales - $4,459.01
Dues - $7,190.00
Advertising - $1,940.00
Merchandise Sales - $1,373.50
Clocks -
Concessions - $12,631.49
Interest Income - $989.13
Contribution Income - $4,084.30
Total Income - $102,410.90
USAW Fees Paid -
Cost of Merchandise Sold - $813.65
Total Cost of Goods Sold - $813.65
Gross Profit - $101,597.25

Expenses
Meals - ($2,077.17)
Lodging - ($5,843.16)
Travel - ($5,335.61)
Rent - ($17,995.00)
Wrestlers' Gear - ($3,336.00)
Shirts and Other Gear - ($2,417.00)
Coaches - ($1,800.00)
Officials - ($9,270.00)
Tournament Expense - ($13,121.46)
Awards - ($10,012.93)
Entry Fees Paid - ($1,000.00)
Sanction Fees Paid - ($70.00)
Membership Fees - $0.00
Licenses -
Clinics / Tapes - ($2,525.00)
Printing and Copies - ($9,424.00)
Insurance -
Supplies - ($321.95)
Equipment - ($187.13)
Postage - ($860.18)
Telephone -
Meetings - ($1,877.05)
Promotions - ($156.25)
Rulesbooks - ($1,100.00)
Internet -
Contract Labor - ($3,899.00)
Bank Fees - ($49.54)
Miscellaneous - $440.13
Grants and Scholarships - ($7,500.00)
Total Expenses - ($99,738.30)
Net Income - $1,858.95

Last year the Executive Council did review bids from Hays, Topeka, and Wichita as host's for the Kids State Tournament. The Hays proposal was eliminated do to size of their arena. The Topeka proposal was selected as it was $15,000 cheaper than the Wichita proposal.
There was some type of gift provided by the Topeka contingent however I do not know the value of the gift as I DID not receive one.

Should you or any other member have any questions please feel free to contact me at:
RichardDSalyer@sbcglobal.net
or (316) 541-2764