Beeson no need to be an a@@, I was just stating an opinion and You know what I was getting at by my post. It is no different for a 14 year old freshman to wrestle a 18 year old senior in high school or kids club. These kids practice and wrestle against seniors the entire high school season.

Tom Baughman

ed ,i have a hard time believing there would be many 19 yr old seniors.
leave 14 under the way it is and if a freshman happens to fall into that age range then so be itlet them either wre4stle there age group or move up if they so choose. then add a high school division for all other high school kids

John,
There probably wouldnt be very many 19 year old seniors, extreme example. Sorry. I second your motion, it is a simple solution for a complicated problem.

Chief,

First of all, you made some sort of comment of why do we not follow the other states as they have found the right way to impove their state's wrestling. Did you ever consider that we are the state breaking new ground. That we are the ones ahead of the curve. That we got it right!! You know it is a flaw in logic to say just because everyone else does it that way, we should. Don't you remember you mon making that comment about if everyone is jumping off a bridge, would you. In other words, I do not care what others are doing. Prove they are right first, then tell me about it. I know my son benefited from wrestling against HS kids - do not take that away from the new 8th graders coming in.

Second, you talk about a state champion wrestling 8th graders (and please keep it at 8th graders) at kids state. I can think of one. But, will you also research how many 8th graders won first over High School kids.

Remember the main reason for federation wrestling in Kansas is to prepare kids for high school, not give the fans high profile matches to watch. The current system gives junior varisity and low weight kids a reason to continue their season. The changes you advocate will change that. Leave the 14U alone. Allow Freshmen to choose and add a High School division.

Overall this is position, I would vote for it, but then try to change it. And, we really need to look into using USA age group. You kind of lose your grand state, unless you allow kids to choose to go up.

Finally, Sports Fan, why even comment if you are not going to add something of value to the discussion. For the most part, this has been an excellent thread where people are exchanging opinions and debating a topic in a civilized manner we are not really use to.

Tom,
Its not about practicing with upperclassmen, most freshmen look forward to kids state as their time to shine, this will take that away from them. Also as the high school division grows there will be fewer freshmen even attempt kids state with a few exceptions like Harrelson or Conklin, what we will end up with is an 8th grade (14U) division and a 11th-12th grade (HS) dominated division with nothing in between. How does this help our sport grow?

Tom,

Of course I know what you were getting at, and as anyone who knows me can attest, I can be an A$$. It was all in fun so settle down.

Chad

Man....

You guys are weak. Admit this: Everybody understands that it's pretty strange that our middle school kids wrestle all year long and at the qualifying series a flood of high school wrestlers come in and grab the top seeds. Your only out is that next year, YOU will be that high school guy who gets the top seed. You are talking about "their time to shine". If we make this change, "their time to shine" is a year earlier! We are NOT breaking any new ground. We are stuck in this "feel good" atmosphere that covets kids state medals instead of taking the awesome talent that we have and diving in head first against the nations best. Every single year we have this empty feeling that we "could have" placed much better "had we done this or that" with our national dual teams. That is where the prize is people. Not always looking back and reaching for hollow victories because you have the upper hand.

I can tell you this. If Illinois, Ohio, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin are excelling on the national stage. I want in. I want to take our Kansas studs and show them the heart we have. We have the talent. Let's dream big instead of longing for that big advantage so that we can really rip our 7th and 8th graders a new one.

This change is progressive, not regressive. Let's get this grand state party started! If this proposal fails, the shame is on you.

"We are weak" Good opening statement. If someone disagrees with you they are weak? Chief, unfortunately I expected more from you when the conversation is not going your way.

I will Admit nothing, because I do not feel it is strange.

If this fails, shame on the fact that it can not be ammended to read like the majority would like. I have seen how quickly change comes. I would not feel comfortable voting for this, hoping that we will change it the following year.

Obviously I feel that the opposite of my position is weak. Otherwise I would hold your position. Correct?

No, you did not state the position as being weak. You stated the "guys" as being weak. There is a difference. Your position can not be too strong, since the states you are using as examples, DO NOT ALLOW STATE WRESTLING IN KIDS AFTER 8th GRADE. This is exactly what you are wanting....the opposite of these states. I am happy to see you have now excluded Oklahoma.

The states that I am using as examples DO NOT ALLOW HIGH SCHOOL WRESTLERS to compete against their MIDDLE SCHOOL WRESTLERS at their state tournament. This proposal ensures that with the High School division. I am for that.

Why are you confused?

Chief, those states have alot more people - anything else. If you want what you are talking about, go with this proposal for this year, but pledge to go with the USA age groups (with cadets having the option to go up) for next year. I have always believed this is the way to go. Kids state should just be a stepping stone for USA nationals - if your can afford to go.

First of all why do we have to do exactly like these other states. I am confused because I see you comparing apples to oranges. How do you compare a state that does not allow kids wrestling past the 8th grade to one that does. Forget the fact that they don't allow Middle School and High School to wrestle each other, because they do not allow High School to wrestle at all. If you want to be like Illinois, Wiconsin, Penn. and others, lets get rid of 16U and make 8th grade the last year a kid can wrestle kids.

ok guys- everybody has a side, but why not get crazy and let my 5th grader compete with an eighth grader. He practices all year with them really, and think how much better that might make him to extend his season in competition with them. Hot Damn! Great for the stars, not always so great for growth or encouragement. We want to expand the sport not JUST make the great better.

Maybe we could try opening a highschool grand (fabulous for the sport and state/Kansas use to have one), allow 14yr old to wrestle up if they choose(for the star pupils),give this idea a year and see how the freshmen choose to compete (the few hs state placers will probably choose the hs level which is what I understand many want to see the BIG matches), then work on tweeking it. Though being called weak may already have changed what peer pressure will allow.

Kids state does not have to be thought as lesser-it is not. Exspecially if the thought is to add a Higher HS level. On one hand it is so great to have a grand tourney, but on the other it is only a lesser title to win at KIDS STATE. Which one is it?

Let's design a program that is progressive for the majority, not just the few. Just a thought!

As I have stated before, I support the change. It actually gives more opportunities for Kansas wrestlers to continue wrestling! I believe that it should be passed and then the option of letting the 14U freshmen wrestle their age division or the High school division should be explored . My problem is with the false assumption that this issue is the reason Kansas wrestling is falling behind or being held back! Throwing catch phrases out that claim this proposal will, �put Kansas on the national stage� without a shred of evidence to support it is what I consider, � Weak�. What are you chief a politician or a used car salesman? And no, �Because they do it.� is not evidence kids that fall into a two year age division that happens to include 8th graders and freshmen are hindering the advancement of Kansas wrestling.

Agree except maybe we should explore first

Steve is right, pass it, then fix it, even if it takes a year. Enough said.

Why not fix it then pass it?

I agree with Pelland. Get it the way the majority want it and then approve it. Don't be rushed or forced into a decision.

Ned, Is there no way that the board can have a web meeting or something similar to ammend this before it is brought before the body?

I guess you could change 16U to 18u. That would mean scrapping this year's proposal. Don't hear a lot of 16u fighting to keep that age group. We could allow 14u wrestlers to wrestle up if they choose, and we would still get see some of the "grand state" type matches we want to see. Just a humble thought.