Well we can debate this forever but until we have several million dollars to pay for the start-up of both a men's wrestling and a women's softball team, none of it matters. Remember, the schools are going to expect the proponents of a wrestling program to carry the woman's sport financially as well, since it won't generate revenue either.
Also, never think "balance" will satisfy Title IX requirements.
When talking about Title IX and it's requirements you have to leave logical thinking by the wayside.
Why is KSU no longer hosting that wrestling camp? I think I know!

NCAA Financial Reports Database

Expense to Revenue Difference KU, K-State & Wichita State 2004/05 data
National Rank
3. University of Kansas $10,064,665
7. Kansas State University $5,489,598

55. Wichita State University $376,785





Source:
http://www2.indystar.com/NCAA_financial_reports

NCAA Financial Reports Database
Select a school to view a new financial report:





Schools ranked by total - total difference Expense to Revenue
1. University of Georgia $23,854,329

2. University of Michigan $17,037,042

3. University of Kansas $10,064,665

4. Virginia Tech University $8,265,356

5. University of Texas $7,250,853

6. University of Iowa $6,693,599

7. Kansas State University $5,489,598

8. Texas A&M University $5,307,357

9. University of Alabama-Tuscaloosa $5,297,584

10. Louisiana State University $5,080,280

11. University of Utah $4,194,506

12. University of Florida $3,873,730

13. Michigan State University $3,829,293

14. University of Virginia $3,235,137

15. Toledo University $2,791,119

16. University of Montana $2,653,379

17. University of Louisville $2,554,198

18. Georgia Tech $2,211,593

19. Old Dominion University $2,100,983

20. University of Illinois-Chicago $2,093,770

21. University of Kentucky $2,073,943

22. University of California-Santa Barbara $1,851,419

23. Texas Tech University $1,673,968

24. University of Southern Mississippi $1,658,070

25. Arizona State University $1,585,108

26. Eastern Kentucky University $1,447,781

27. University of Arkansas $1,406,082

28. University of New Mexico $1,378,962

29. University of Central Florida $1,358,572

30. Fresno State $1,340,790

31. Oregon State University $1,139,173

32. Colorado State University $1,030,996

33. Florida International University $968,252

34. Towson State University $956,827

35. San Diego State University $932,443

36. University of Massachusetts $842,586

37. University of South Florida $741,998

38. Youngstown State University $732,693

39. Iowa State University $685,428

40. University of North Carolina-Greensboro $658,549

41. Texas State University-San Marcos $632,892

42. University of Wyoming $520,333

43. Washington State University $517,490

44. Miami University (Ohio) $502,720

45. Kent State University $489,665

46. University of Illinois $481,223

47. Central Connecticut State University $480,733

48. Virginia Commonwealth University $480,698

49. University of North Carolina-Charlotte $474,849

50. Clemson University $468,178

51. Sam Houston State University $461,834

52. University of Missouri $460,707

53. James Madison University $404,095

54. Oakland University $384,267

55. Wichita State University $376,785

56. Ball State University $343,708

57. State University of New York-Binghamton $325,443

58. Bowling Green State University $318,994

59. University of Nevada-Las Vegas $299,629

60. Montana State University $270,149

61. Sacramento State $242,628

62. Mississippi State University $229,129

63. University of North Carolina $220,971

64. University of California-Riverside $216,744

65. New Mexico State University $213,682

66. Eastern Michigan University $211,909

67. Coastal Carolina University $188,281

68. University of Rhode Island $166,262

69. Florida State University $164,185

70. University of New Hampshire $145,298

71. Southern Illinois University $138,577

72. University of Akron $125,458

73. Auburn University $121,815

74. Ohio State University $120,674

75. Norfolk State University $104,807

76. University of Wisconsin $95,510

77. Florida Atlantic University $92,514

78. University of Nebraska $76,849

79. University of Maine $74,518

80. College of William & Mary $63,401

81. Boise State University $60,615

82. Lamar University $55,964

83. California Poly State University $51,383

84. California State University-Northridge $42,983

85. The Citadel $42,404

86. Nicholls State University $40,510

87. University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee $37,492

88. University of Texas-Pan American $28,727

89. University of Idaho $28,624

90. University of Texas-Arlington $26,399

91. University of South Alabama $23,504

92. University of Wisconsin-Green Bay $14,271

93. Louisiana Tech University $13,098

94. Indiana University-Purdue University at Indianapolis $13,030

95. Eastern Illinois University $10,191

96. University of Northern Iowa $10,050

97. University at Buffalo $4,806

98. University of Louisiana-Monroe $4,803

99. Indiana State University $3,298

100. University of California-Los Angeles $2,455

101. Long Beach State University $739

102. Utah State University $502

103. University of Texas-El Paso $5

104. Rutgers $0

105. University of Memphis $0

106. Northern Arizona University $0

107. Troy State University $0

108. Jacksonville State University $0

109. University at Albany $0

110. Morehead State University $0

111. University of Maryland $0

112. Central Michigan University $0

113. University of Maryland-Eastern Shore $0

114. Missouri State University $0

115. Cleveland State University $0

116. University of Mississippi $0

117. Western Kentucky University $0

118. George Mason University $-5,867

119. Indiana University-Purdue University (Fort Wayne) $-5,877

120. Utah Valley State College $-9,506

121. Georgia Southern University $-13,082

122. University of Houston $-28,524

123. Idaho State University $-39,509

124. Western Illinois University $-52,978

125. University of Alabama-Birmingham $-88,630

126. College of Charleston $-91,062

127. Murray State University $-96,114

128. Southeast Missouri State University $-110,887

129. Stephen F. Austin State University $-115,565

130. University of North Carolina-Wilmington $-117,996

131. University of Oregon $-131,198

132. University of Connecticut $-163,610

133. Purdue University $-174,663

134. University of Texas-San Antonio $-176,689

135. Northwestern State University $-191,463

136. Marshall University $-193,045

137. Western Carolina University $-218,669

138. University of North Carolina-Asheville $-248,707

139. Illinois State University $-289,984

140. University of Arkansas-Pine Bluff $-300,638

141. Eastern Washington University $-342,865

142. Appalachian State University $-377,701

143. University of California-Irvine $-416,638

144. Georgia State University $-434,627

145. University of Tennessee $-487,618

146. Ohio University $-528,552

147. University of Louisiana-Lafayette $-535,156

148. University of Missouri-Kansas City $-593,064

149. University of Minnesota $-595,248

150. Winthrop University $-618,679

151. East Carolina University $-634,822

152. University of Colorado $-762,923

153. Indiana University $-836,320

154. San Jose State University $-871,376

155. University of Maryland-Baltimore County $-1,019,456

156. University of Arizona $-1,105,126

157. North Carolina State University $-1,255,124

158. University of Nevada $-1,800,138

159. University of Hawaii $-2,157,665

160. University of Washington $-2,225,382

161. West Virginia University $-2,312,383

162. University of South Carolina $-2,655,084

163. University of North Texas $-3,106,546

164. University of Cincinnati $-4,123,348

165. University of California-Berkeley $-7,887,612

166. University of Arkansas-Little Rock $-8,698,807


Wichita State University
Football Conference: None Basketball Conference: Missouri Valley

Revenue Statement
Expense Statement



Football Men's Basketball Women's Basketball Other Non Program Specific Total


Student Aid $0 $210,854 $157,405 $1,297,409 $55,472 $1,721,140

Guarantees $0 $141,000 $21,781 $29,723 $0 $192,504

Salaries $0 $762,410 $315,629 $1,328,722 $0 $2,406,761

Other Coaches' Comp. $0 $0 $0 $0 $0 $0

Support Staff Salaries $0 $72,675 $25,784 $160,336 $1,764,451 $2,023,246

Other Support Staff Comp $0 $0 $0 $0 $0 $0

Severence Payments $0 $0 $0 $0 $0 $0

Recruiting $0 $91,742 $35,465 $103,266 $0 $230,473

Team Travel $0 $216,709 $90,845 $645,349 $0 $952,903

Equipment $0 $68,836 $28,593 $148,236 $32,068 $277,733

Game Expenses $0 $115,546 $56,113 $107,024 $0 $278,683

Promotion $0 $226,477 $2,286 $37,909 $1,676,776 $1,943,448

Sports Camp $0 $0 $0 $0 $0 $0

Facilities, Maintenance $0 $4,645 $1,886 $105,083 $312,522 $424,136

Spirit Groups $0 $0 $0 $0 $9,758 $9,758

Indirect Institutional Support $0 $0 $0 $0 $921,916 $921,916

Medical $0 $0 $0 $0 $129,711 $129,711

Memberships $0 $16,392 $3,430 $9,345 $51,651 $80,818

Other Operating $0 $85,384 $71,301 $183,207 $1,080,135 $1,420,027

Total Operating $0 $2,012,670 $810,518 $4,155,609 $6,034,460 $13,013,257

Expense to Revenue Difference $0 $1,052,661 $-729,142 $-3,006,589 $3,059,855 $376,785


University of Kansas
Football Conference: Big 12 Basketball Conference: Big 12

Revenue Statement
Expense Statement



Football Men's Basketball Women's Basketball Other Non Program Specific Total


Student Aid $2,247,216 $387,268 $280,597 $2,970,004 $837 $5,885,922

Guarantees $324,880 $440,000 $43,895 $37,484 $0 $846,259

Salaries $2,432,534 $1,789,236 $917,646 $1,764,347 $0 $6,903,763

Other Coaches' Comp. $0 $0 $0 $0 $0 $0

Support Staff Salaries $392,500 $231,410 $123,792 $130,834 $9,217,040 $10,095,576

Other Support Staff Comp $0 $0 $0 $0 $0 $0

Severence Payments $0 $0 $0 $0 $0 $0

Recruiting $294,031 $160,455 $156,547 $193,260 $0 $804,293

Team Travel $468,403 $567,064 $219,005 $1,267,837 $350,249 $2,872,558

Equipment $181,824 $22,283 $8,420 $296,348 $78,965 $587,840

Game Expenses $317,262 $504,059 $158,976 $157,558 $0 $1,137,855

Promotion $5,586 $10,201 $8,889 $5,652 $2,104,694 $2,135,022

Sports Camp $0 $0 $0 $0 $0 $0

Facilities, Maintenance $29,728 $1,760 $230 $33,136 $2,252,649 $2,317,503

Spirit Groups $0 $0 $0 $0 $226,061 $226,061

Indirect Institutional Support $0 $0 $0 $0 $887,833 $887,833

Medical $0 $0 $0 $0 $602,607 $602,607

Memberships $9,783 $8,034 $4,276 $9,864 $109,789 $141,746

Other Operating $362,644 $213,879 $166,260 $320,879 $4,252,854 $5,316,516

Total Operating $7,066,391 $4,335,649 $2,088,533 $7,187,203 $20,083,578 $40,761,354

Expense to Revenue Difference $2,753,938 $7,443,210 $-1,929,024 $-6,160,707 $7,957,248 $10,064,665
Kansas State University
Football Conference: Big 12 Basketball Conference: Big 12

Revenue Statement
Expense Statement



Football Men's Basketball Women's Basketball Other Non Program Specific Total


Student Aid $1,669,001 $329,130 $295,631 $2,067,580 $135,836 $4,497,178

Guarantees $1,180,000 $298,809 $57,887 $18,643 $0 $1,555,339

Salaries $2,919,437 $1,074,150 $624,496 $1,320,070 $0 $5,938,153

Other Coaches' Comp. $0 $0 $0 $0 $0 $0

Support Staff Salaries $757,098 $76,294 $228,300 $189,159 $6,447,701 $7,698,552

Other Support Staff Comp $0 $0 $0 $0 $0 $0

Severence Payments $0 $0 $6,635 $8,026 $0 $14,661

Recruiting $220,298 $130,900 $96,846 $142,782 $0 $590,826

Team Travel $565,526 $241,220 $398,144 $962,723 $0 $2,167,613

Equipment $220,365 $30,558 $75,298 $305,952 $79,912 $712,085

Game Expenses $344,040 $150,252 $107,754 $207,892 $327,272 $1,137,210

Promotion $86,409 $129,268 $71,534 $258,029 $1,576,891 $2,122,131

Sports Camp $0 $0 $0 $0 $0 $0

Facilities, Maintenance $202,294 $25,090 $13,177 $182,938 $2,660,937 $3,084,436

Spirit Groups $0 $0 $0 $0 $251,867 $251,867

Indirect Institutional Support $0 $0 $0 $0 $855,195 $855,195

Medical $170,459 $32,967 $13,992 $132,004 $320,979 $670,403

Memberships $25,827 $12,387 $9,706 $23,442 $36,378 $107,742

Other Operating $105,617 $38,395 $42,386 $50,535 $2,754,292 $2,991,229

Total Operating $8,466,372 $2,569,422 $2,041,787 $5,869,777 $15,447,261 $34,394,621

Expense to Revenue Difference $11,488,185 $799,443 $-1,156,428 $-5,179,739 $-461,862 $5,489,598

None of that matters because if you're starting a new sport the persons attempting to get that done are going to have to bring new money in order to get it done. Neither KU or KSU are going to spend a dime on a new sport except if it is to stay in compliance with Title IX or to improve the male sports they already have. No meetings with regents or letters to legislators will accomplish anything because both schools can demonstrate, and honestly so, that they can't afford another program. I'm telling all of you pie in the sky thinkers that you can wish all you want for a program at the two Big 12 schools and that is all it will ever be, a wish. If you really want a program, let's raise a million dollars and take it to WSU! Better yet, let's raise the million and take it to all three and see which one bites.

the best idea i have heard in a few days, maybe months. who's in charge? where do we send $$$? how can we raise a million dollars?

better yet let's snub the BIG 12, split the difference, and go after 2 MIAA schools. PSU, WASHBURN, EMPORIA, would all be a nice addition, to Fort Hays, Truman, Nebraska Omaha, and Central Missouri, who already have programs. PLUS it would give two chances for KS kids to compete IN STATE.

The part that bothers me is that the administration say they want to run it like a business. A couple of the revenue producing sports W-basketball at Wichita state lost $700,000, KU $1.9 million, and K-State $1.1 million. Pretty tough running a business with those numbers. I get it tiltle IX issue, gender equity - but does it really cost that much to have a team. Come on find some sports that don't cost so much and meet the NCAA and US Department of education guidleines. These buyouts of coaches are shameful. They either do their job or they don't. We should be more interested in giving kids college opportunities instead of golden parachutes for coaches. We as taxpayers do have a say in how the schools are running their "business" on taxpayer property. If they want to be totally independent they should go buy a piece of property and build a stadium or arena, locker rooms, class rooms etc. I think they are STUDENT athletes
first (not farm clubs) I hope. Those student athletes do recieve local, state & federal tax dollars as well. Who do you think cleans, maintains those building, provides security. That is correct it is people not in those programs budgets, teacher salaries do not come out of athletic budgets. To assume we should have no say is totally wrong.

Get 20,000 people to send in $50.

I've got my $50.00 and would gladly contribute it to the cause.

I am in also. That's 2!

3

4

IOU $50.00

I'm good for it.

I think the overall objective should be retaining these student athletes, wrestlers, softball players, swimmers, the minor sport individuals, etc., after they get out of college. Some of them have pretty good grades and careers after college. Kansas has a problem with brain drain and the business community should have a vested interest in retaining them.

will you take a check?

I actually like this idea. Many of you know I got involved in a effort with a group of individuals in Kansas a few years ago to try to convince one of our three Kansas D-1 universities to add wrestling. We ran into many of the roadblocks that you have all been discussing. Over the years that I was involved in the effort I became convinced that the only way to actually get wrestling added would be thru the raising of money. I believe that we need to show these universities that the wrestling community is going to financially support wrestling in a significant way. A couple of years ago on the national wrestling forum this issue was discussed and the idea of a National College Wrestling Endowment fund was discussed. Cael Sanderson became an advocate of the concept at that time. I had some correspondence with the leaders of the National Wrestling Coaches Association. They were considering launching such a fund and fund raising effort. I think the idea fizzled out when the stock market and economy started to crash in late 2007 and into 2008. As far as I know they never launched the Endowment fund.

But I do still think that is the way to add college wrestling programs. We have to endow these colleges for their wrestling programs. Right now I am doing that with Baker University where my son started wrestling for this year. But I would still be willing to get involved with a new endowment fund with the purpose of funding all Kansas college wrestling. I think that funding could be directed at all our Kansas colleges. I would be okay with the main objective being first getting a D-1 school established. I think a non for profit would have to be formed with an elected Board. I would be willing to get involved with a group working to establish such a non for profit along with financially contributing to the Kansas College Endowment Fund.

Edit ( I just bumped on the high school forum the topic I started in May 2008 that introduced the National College Wrestling Endowment Fund concept)

Just post-date a check out about 10 years.