3H, That's a great post. Gets me fired up just thinking about it. Duals are flat out GOOD for High School wrestling! These auxillary gyms that many schools have now are perfect for full bleachers and a boisterous crowd. There is no other format that brings the wrestlers closer together than a full bench cheering each wrestler on and staring at the team score with every match. Look at the Schoolboy, Middle School, Cadet and Junior duals. Those teammates are friends for life.

We need additional competition points to allow for more than ONE HOME DUAL!

The starting point for changing rules, needs to be the 5 match limit. I have yet to hear a reasonable answer in favor of this rule!

3HSWrestler- I am the head wrestling coach at Shawnee Hts. I appreciate your comments about the Hts v GE dual. I'm from a small town in Oklahoma where at least 1000 people fill the stands for every home dual meet. It is like Friday Night Lights, but for wrestling. This is my goal for Shawnee Hts wrestling. I love duals and wish KS had a dual state tourney as well as a normal state tourney.

We have been building this program and try to put on a show at home. I tell my wrestlers, this show is not for us....we just need to wrestle. The show is for the fans and school. The true wrestling fan loves to watch a good match, but the normal person doesn't even understand wrestling. So, we need to promote the sport and do something to draw people in to watch us. This week we will have our Sr night. For this dual we will project a highlight video on the gym wall before the varsity dual. Then we will intro the Sr's and have them walk out with their parents. Following Sr night events, we will start "The Show". We will bring our kids club wrestlers out on the mat w/our HS wrestlers and say our team creed together and then do our team break down. Our varsity wrestlers will be intro'd to music as they run out of a tunnel w/smoke. We will wrestle all matches under a matlamp. Each wrestler will have their own intro song as they walk onto the mat before they wrestle. T-shirts will be thrown into the crowd along with beads in Shawnee Hts colors.

This type of atmosphere makes wrestling fun and builds a program. Our kids club wrestlers see this and think, I wnt to be that varsity wrestler someday. Anyway, thanks again and I hope people continue to promote and build our sport!

p.s. This dual will be next Wed at Shawnee Hts. JV matches begin at 6 pm and the varsity matches will begin around 7 pm if anyone wants to come and watch.

I really like the State Dual idea. I think we should push for that before a Grand State. Here's why.....

1. In order to keep wrestling growing as a sport and to keep it from always being on the chopping block we need to increase fan interest. For true wrestling enthusiasts, individual matches are enjoyable but for the average observer it can be very complicated to follow and enjoy. It is much easier for the casual fan to understand the team concept and scoring.

2. It is easier for coaches to build excitment and school pride within their team and their school using a dual type format. Coach Parks has it absolutley right and does a great job at Shawnee Heights.

3. The dual format brings a totally different set of lessons that our wrestlers need to learn. How you compete can become very important. For example, a kid that would normally get pinned by his opponent that fights off his back and doesn't give up 6 points can end up being a hero. These are good lessons for our kids to learn.

4. Teamwork/Team Unity....a dual format helps teach the kids about teamwork and team unity. These are critical life lessons that you need in almost every job or walk of life.

5. Most kids spend the majority of their wrestling career wrestling for themselves in individual tournaments. They start in kids club and it goes from there.

6. Kids love the dual format. To see the hard evidence of that look no farther than Will Cokeley and the Middle School Duals that he got started here in KS. The interest in that event has grown exponentially in just the past 4-5 years. I have kids that have had the privalege (I deliberately choose that word) to be on one of the Team KS teams for this and it is their favorite wrestling event that they attend.

I am not arguing to not have an individual state. I like the idea of having both.

I know some other rules will have to change in order to pull this off but I think it would be awesome to do a dual state!

Shawn Budke

A wrestling coach that attempts to MAKE kids practice and wrestle outside of the season will soon find himself without a team. The ONLY kids who will do so are the ones who want to. Wrestling is not LIKE team sports in that a coach, one with any ethics, tell a kid that he will NOT be a starter if he doesn’t come to his spring practices. It is NOT the coach’s choice. The beautiful thing about wrestling is that the athletes determine who is in the starting lineup, not the coach. You are naïve if you don’t think nearly every wrestling coach in Kansas would do about anything to get more athletes in their room not thin them out by burning them out.
If my son wanted to be a geometry whiz no one would tell him he couldn’t work with the geometry teacher every day all summer long. What is the difference???

I am very puzzled by your statement that I am trying to “CONTROL HS WRESTLING” when my suggestions merely permit a program to have a choice. By desiring more FREEDOM I am a control freak. That seems, well contrary!



WHY, WHY, WHY do we need this rule??? Travel is self policing!! If you cannot afford or do not want to go then DON’T. Blue Valley HS never leaves the metro area! If it is about missed classroom time then limit that but not by a mileage limit. The rule is outdated and stupid. You don’t need a survey when the rule is unnecessary! Again I ask you “WHY is it okay for the band to be able to travel ANYWHERE but the wrestling team only 500 miles from the border?” PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE show me the common sense behind this rule!
The video rule is the same. This rule is practically unenforceable and is only complaint driven. There are lots of people out there who cannot attend and would like to watch matches. Why have a stupid rule in the handbook if it is not worthy of enforcement?




Someone needs to get on a soapbox with a bullhorn and microphone! The process to change any of what we would like to have happen is so cumbersome that it is nearly impossible. The entire process needs to be overhauled as an entire generation will flow through the system before anything meaningful will happen.


Why would it be disparaging to say I was more competitive than my son? Isn’t it every dad’s dream to have their son excel and achieve their goals? Without competitive dads there would be no competitive athletes.



Kansas is one of very few states who do not host all of their state wrestling tournaments in the same venue at the same time. Iowa’s is perhaps the MOST prestigious high school state tournament in the country. I want to see all of my friends and all of the wrestlers at the same place at the same time. The present format of having only 4A in Salina is a joke. It is so quiet on the night of the finals. By 285 there is just a bit more than a cleanup crew left. I HATE IT!

I cleaned up your post for you.

A few replies:

Still do not see the virtues of a Dual State Tournament in Kansas. With our small number of high schools in all classes, I would anticipate seeing almost the same schools year after year in each class. Most teams ride to our State tournament on the backs of 2 to 4 good wrestlers. The majority of schools do not have the team depth to succeed in a dual format. In all 4 classes you would get the perinnal "big dogs", who have probably already wrestled each other 2 or 3 times during the regular season.

My comments may also support an arguement for a dual format. But, I would still rather see a GRAND STATE with CHAMP ON CHAMP!

Don't really care about the 500 mile rule. Still, t is expensive, and however a long trip is funded, moms and dads are going to have to divy up--money, effort, or both. Plus I doubt if very many Kansas wrestlers have been passed over because they did not travel a 1000 miles out of state. This allegation makes no sense--especially when I hear and read of both Kansas and Mssouri wrestlers going to major colleges to wrestle. Hey dads and coaches, every kid who puts on a singlet is not a prospective AllAmerican.

Have not convinced me that the Coach Contact rule should be over turned. If a HS coach wants to coach at a Nationals, then go to a neighboring city or town and coach a club their with other kids. The purpose of the rule is to protect the kid. Also, working for a club coach who is not his HS coach exoses the kid to other styles, holds, strategies, etc. Seems that is similar to why wrestle more matches--EXPERIENCE!

Western Kansas HS travel. I was not disparging teams from out west,have heard, and even read on this forum, numerous comments, complaints, even brags about western KS travel. I was just using you as a cogent example. How many miles a year do all Liberal HS teams have to travel. My butt would get awfully tired sitting in that bus--even though it is a travel coach.

Lastly, thanks for critizing our team because we are economically challenged (poor), can't afford to travel more than 20 miles (round trip). and buy our uniforms and wrestling shoes from Goodwill and Salvation Army Thrift stores.

I believe Will's proposal of additional competition points for night duals is very important. Many schools have eliminated duals as a waste of points or just have one as a parents night. Most fans cannot afford to travel for a whole Saturday to watch a tournament, but they can find a few hours after dark on a weekday night to watch. By losing the home dual, we have lost our home fan base. This is very important during a time of cut-backs. We need fans who will push school boards to keep wrestling. I believe some programs will disappear by next season due to the economy. And, we need to steal a few of those Friday nights from that other activity.

As for allowing coachs contact with their kids after the season - one needs to remember some oppose this - because their HS coach is also maybe 'an assistant track or baseball coach' and would not have the time to put in for freestyle/greco (along with the fact they may not understand freestyle/greco). These coachs may feel pressured to keep up with everyone else. And, teachers do not make that much and may need the money that comes from being an assistant track coach - trying not to be that judgemental. Just pointing out why some like contrarian may oppose this.

sorry i'm not a smart as will, can't use the quote function. lol.

Contrarian,

No chance at AA, stay at home cause your butt gets tired and protect the kids from coaches that really want to help them excel. Now those are solutions we can 86.

Amazing how most of the responders to my comments took my comments literally rather than figuratively.

Why are things the way they are? Because!

Matside weighins before each match, or maybe a more steamlined, an additional weigh in 1hr before finals.

I offer a proposal for Kansas that they use in Iowa.

If a wrestler who has qualified for state out of his regional, Is ill or injured, or for any reason, cannot wrestle at state, select the (in Kansas) the 5th placer from the same regional to go to State. All wrestlers behind the ill or injured wrestler are moved up in the pecking ooder. Example: the bracket runnerup (2nd) is unable to wrestle State--the 5th place wrestler moves to 4th, 4th to 3rd, 3rd to 2nd. Number 1 stays at number 1. This should not happen often, but it will preclude open brackets and byes at State. In Iowa, because they only advance two wrestlers to state, they go down to only 3rd place, and only 3rd place, to get a bracket filler replacement.

Hey Chief! Figurative! Not literal.

What do you teach? Surely not English Lit!

Do not understand your AA comment. Why not keep it to wrestling!

Reference all State Tournaments in one building. Other than KU and KSU where are there facilities big enough to get 12 mats on the floor--3 per school class--no aux facilities allowed--and to seat the crowds.

Still have the issue of 321A moving from Fort Hays.

Is not 4A planned to again join 6A and 5A in a one building tournament? If so, when?

Another issue, if there is not a facility in Wichita big enough to support a single 4 class state tournament, how do you get out of Wichita without an in-state civil war?

Moving up a fifth place wrestler means there would have to be a fifth place match which has already been identified in an earlier topic as further proof that wrestling has been p***ified.

Rule Change Proposal
State wide seeding criteria
1-Head to Head (Most wins in series current season)
2- Common Opponent (If not head to head but a win against a common)
3-USA Wrestling Cadet/Junior National Champion/All-American (3 pts)
• Fargo- Freestyle/Greco
• Northern Iowa – Folkstyle
4-State Champions- (Weight Class does not matter) (2 pts)
5-All State Placings (1 pt)
• Ie. 3 is more than 2 therefore better.
6-State Qualifier (1/2 pt)
1) If a wrestler has criteria in # 1 that wrestler is the higher seed.
2) If no #1 but a wrestler as criteria in #2 that wrestler is the higher seed.
3-5) If no #1 or #2 criteria, starting adding up total points and the wrestler with the most points is the higher seeded wrestler.
*If still a tie, draw out of pill bottle or coaches vote (tournament directors decision which one)
Note: I don’t believe placing at that tournament, or better record should be a criteria. Brackets change from year to year and some schedules are tougher than others.

Why?
• It is apparent that every seeding meeting is different. You also have early season tournaments where there is no possible head to head or common opponent. I believe this aligns our brackets as a state.
• This will encourage coaches and wrestlers to participate in post season competition. If it is possible to get a seeding point(s) for being apart and placing in the Natioanal level competition then it should be used as criteria. These tournaments are worthy of points but I believe we should make it uniform to our wrestling governing bodies of USA Wrestling and even look at adding NHSCA National competition.


• I also believe if we seeded the state wrestling tournament (With the 16 qualifiers from regionals) in the same manner we would have better tournaments, better competition and a raise in post season participation.
o Separate the best athletes
o Can keep your 4 regions
o Seeding meeting Thursday as soon as possible after Regionals in a state designated location per class.

I'm glad your on board Greg. I wouldn't be opposed to wrestling for 5th just to make sure there wasn't an open spot in the bracket at State. Just make sure they don't get to stand on the podium or get a medal.

this clown is a coach im pointing up

You mean looking up, at the lights. In wrestling that's not good.

sorry beeson we all can't be such bad aces as you tuff guy sorry i said something now i am terrified. nastyway trembles in fear