How is that good for him he did not make it at 103 so how is he to make it at 107. in the next three years we will be loaded at 103 some very good kids will not make the team. i think it comes in waves as said before 5lbs for a 103lber is a lot someone who weighs 170 10lbs is not that much. maybe the 170lber should be pushing a pumpkin. as a fr. i weighed 86lb and wrestled 98 lost every match then they cut wrestling at my school but would do it again it was all i had to short to play basketball to small for football at least the coach thought so i did not. it wont matter what we say or do here they will do what they want a we will eat and eat some more thank God for sams club.wish i could make my son bigger all i can do is help him get faster and stronger and hope for the best.so much for cross country we will be in the weight room hard to put weight when they run 4 miles a day.

But isnt there something to be said about asking a 235 pound kid to wrestle a kid that cuts to 285?
Its too much weight!
Add a 245 or 250 class!
I understand that in some smaller schools they wont let those kids drop to 215 cause the COACH needs to fill a roster. I say that both ends (lighter and Heavier) could use a little revising.

What is the average years experience (how many years coming into high school) of each weight class?

Wisconsin 3 classes

103 lbs By grade Percent
Qualifiers
Freshman 11 34.38%
Sophmores 12 37.50%
Juniors 7 21.88%
Seniors 2 6.25%
Total Qualifiers 32 100.00%

Kansas 4 Classes

103 lbs By grade Percent
Qualifiers
Freshman 32 50.00%
Sophmores 21 32.81%
Juniors 9 14.06%
Seniors 2 3.13%
64 100.00%


If the NFHS moves the limit on the lightest high school weight up. Currenlty in Wisconsin over 63% of the High School state qualifiers (32) are sophmores or above. In Kansas this year 50% of the state qulaifiers (64) are sophmores or above. If we are trying to maintain a starting point for lighter weights 110 is to big. Another topic for discussion is the consolidation of classes. Wisconsin has at least a couple more million people in that state compared to Kansas. Yet they have half the qualifiers per weight for state. Kansas should a least try 3 divisions for wrestling and have it all in the same location - where ever that may be.


Edited by smokeycabin (Today at 07:45 AM)

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#162152 - 56 minutes 39 seconds ago Re: 103 pound statistics/qualifiers by grade [Re: smokeycabin]
smokeycabin
Member

Registered: July, 07 2001
Posts: 1260
Loc: Shawnee Kansas I think another interesting stat might be the average experience level. By weight how many years of experience does the average state qualifier have? 0-13 years of experince. This would be tough stat to get but not that hard for each coach to calculate on their HS team. It would help Kansas wrestling tremendously if we can get kids to start by the 6th or 7th grade. So 5th & 6th grade parents of wrestlers - have you son or daughter bring a buddy to practice next year.

The good part was he was one match from qualifying for state. So, the 170 lber should just play basketball because he is not 95 lbs? Like I said there aren't that many to draw from across the board at 103 even if a particular school has a lot of light guys in waves.

The kids that can't quite get to 103 also have some issues with success as you mention and that wouldn't make a difference if the weight was 103 or 93.
We have to look at the sport as a whole across the state and for all weight classes. There needs to be some revision at the top and bottom and opportunities need to exist for some of the mid upper weight kids, where there are a lot of athletes all the time across the board. One individual example doesn't change the fact that there are a lot of holes in every tournament all year round for the 103s. 107 is still pretty light and it actually allows for more athletes to make the lower weights and evens the gaps in the mid uppers-- especially if you look at the actual proposals.

I am for more opportunities for all of our wrestlers. Revising the weights allows for more kids to find a spot they fit without 11, 18, 25 and 60 lb gaps.

Take this national ranking list of 103 pounders. 75% of them are not freshman. These are some the guys that will grow into 125 and 133 pounders or higher in college.

5 freshman
12 sophmores
3 juniors
0- seniors


Rank Name High School State Class
1 Nick Roberts
North Star PA 2012
2 Tyler Fraley
Colts Neck NJ 2011
3 Tyler Daniel
Stevensville-Lakeshore MI 2012
4 Ruben Navejas
Kentwood WA 2011
5 Cody Phillips
Union County IN 2012
6 Brad Perkins
Oak Park MO 2013
7 George DiCamillo
St. Ignatius OH 2012
8 Dean Heil
St. Edward OH 2013
9 Zach Bridson
Timberlane NH 2012
10 Max Hvolbeck
Blair Academy NJ 2012
11 Tyson Dippery
Central Dauphin PA 2013
12 Nashon Garrett
Chico CA 2011
13 Bo Pursel
Lansing KS 2012
14 Sam Brancale
Eden Prairie MN 2012
15 Kevon Powell
Montini Catholic IL 2012
16 Nathan Tomasello
CVCA OH 2013
17 Jordan Kingsley
Apple Valley MN 2012
18 Ryan Taylor
Graham OH 2012
19 Alec Dierna
Wayne NY 2012
20 Micah Perez
Central Union CA 2013

Of course you can find a list of 103s nationally, but it doesn't mean there are more of them existing in our state and I guarantee those kids are all cutting to get to 103 which seems to be the argument against raising the lowest limit. That same list will exist if the lowest weight were 107. I am passionate about a change because I both support the little guys and the guys in the most congested weight classes. When 215 was added, so many doors were opened for the 200+ pounders competing for HWT. But, making some of the gaps in the upper mids lessen would be very beneficial for our sport.

yes they are cutting because the next weight is 112 and they weigh 107 5lbs is to much to give up at this weight how about have a 100 and a 105 and a 110 my be a dumb ? but how about let a school put 14 kids on the mat maybe two at one weight and none at another.

Not trying to start a fight. 215 did open some doors.

Tate Thompson - find me the state or national HS statistics where heavier guys (215lbs & HWT's) have more experience than the lighter weights(103's and 112's).

Look at this years Kansas high school state qualifiers. Maybe we can track some of these high school guys and see what weight they end up at kids state 14 & under or the HS division. That would give us a good idea on wieght loss. My guess we may have some under weight freshman not cutting to much weight and then you'll have quite a few that came from 103-115 some even higher that hit growth spurts during the year.

Kansas 4 Classes

103 lbs By grade Percent
Qualifiers
Freshman 32 50.00%
Sophmores 21 32.81%
Juniors 9 14.06%
Seniors 2 3.13%
64 100.00%

I think it is crazy we have weights every 5 pounds a part in high school - I think that should.

Sean McCarthy
STA Kids Club

Ok if we are looking at Kansas kids up and coming. Last year at kids state their were 78 kids who qualified for state that were wrestling at 75, 80, 85, 90, 95 & 100 - to me that is a good agruement to keep 103 as the lightest weight in Kansas. If you take 14 and under weights 175, 205, 235 & 265 there were 55 kids who qualified for state. Even if you take out the 100 pound kids who may be 112 the next year there are still 62 kids from 95 pounds or less from 14 & under. Those 62 are all going towards the 103 division. On the upper end of 14 & under the 175lbers have 189 or 215 to grow to or the can cut to 171 if the are a small 175 (actual weight 180-183). the 235's can cut to 215 or grow into heavys. The heavys are going to have to stay fit - no more unlimited available.

The 85, 90 & 95 pounds can't cut anything. More kids fewer options coming into high school. 103 is the only option. 110 will be way out of reach for some.

Please take time to sign the petition. It takes less then 1 minute.

You could look at the 14 and under data I posted above in another way. 78 kids at the state tournament between 75-100 pounds 25 pound range. Additionally there were 55 kids at the Kansas state tournament within a 90 pound range 175-265. There still are plenty of 103's out there. And I did sign the petition.
These types of wrestling participation statistics have more use than just total kids by size.

I would be willing to bet the kid who weighs 235 probably is in better physical shape than the kid who has to cut to make 285, which is already an advantage in itself.

I will also agree a 245lbs could be beneficial, but 15 weight classes is too many. I would be all for getting rid of a middle weight and redistributing the weights to cover the spread but unfortunately as I stated above, the majority of kids will fall in that range thus we need more opportunities there as opposed to the upper end of the spectrum. We need the lower opportunities because everyone who comes into high school usually grows larger as time goes on so more opportunities are needed in the lower weights.

Some numbers for discussion...
# of Wrestlers (Pratt 1st, Norton 2nd)
103- 10 , 11
112- 9 , 15
119- 11 , 12
125- 11 , 13
130- 12 , 12
135- 11 , 15
140- 11 , 16
145- 12 , 15
152- 9 , 14
160- 9 , 16
171- 10 , 14
189- 12 , 16
215- 11 , 14
285- 12 , 10

It seems the numbers show that the weight classes are pretty evenly distributed now, what else is there to gain? Adding another weight class at the top will only take participants away from what already there and lower the numbers there.

I have kids in my room that have problems on both ends of this spectrum... But Smokey,I think you are skewing the numbers to fit your opinion this time. Everything you said about last years numbers is accurate but it does not tell the whole story.

14-75 6 kids in bracket
14-80 13
14-85 11
14-90 16
14-95 16
14-100 15

14-175 16 kids in bracket
14-205 16
14-235 15
14-265 8

I think there are just as many (or just as few depending on your perspective) kids in the heavier side of the bell curve as in the lighter side...but the top side has far fewer options. Also my gut tells me that a 216# kid wrestling #285 carries far more risk of injury with it than a 103# wrestling 110/112.

...And for the record my 185# freshman who wrestled #215 has no interest in roundball...at least that is what he told the basketball coach this year

To further make my point on participation numbers and weights.
I firmly believe by high school you have many more higher caliber kids with more experience at the lighter weights.
How can the NFHS ignore numbers like this. We can not say the big kids are playing football in April.

Participation numbers from SchoolBoy Folkstyle Nationals in Iowa 2009 - Kids coming up on high school.

70 lbs - 21 participants
77 lbs - 34 participants
84 lbs - 47 participants
91 lbs - 52 participants
98 lbs - 48 participants

202 partcipants under 103 pounds or within 28 pounds of each other

175 pounds - 12 participants
190 pounds - 9 participants
210 pounds - 3 participants
265 pounds - 3 participants

27 participants between 175-265 or within 90 pounds of each other.
Go ahead and add 165 and make it a cool 100 pound range for the upper weights. I know my statistics and bell curves.

Pretty glaring if you ask me.

This shows me national wrestling participation interest in the sport by weight for kids entering high school. Not kids you chase down as freshman who are big and can not play basketball. I am not making up these numbers Mark. The NFHS is making a nationwide decision for wrestling for all states. I am telling you like I see it.

All these numbers haven't proven anything glaring to me. If we are going to do stats, then let's track the number of kids at each weight class in each tournament throughout the high school season. The kids season is a different bird and upper weights are not always participating after the high school season as they are doing baseball and track. The argument of amount of experience means nothing. You can have 10 years of experience and get beaten by a first year guy as it depends on how quickly the athletes learn and how athletic the athlete is. Like I have said, I support the little guy, but that's not where are athletes are losing opportunities, it is in the mid upper weights.

Obviously we can't convince each other of anything, so I am done posting, it's just that I think we are arguing based on loyalty to our own children(which I understand). However, there are just not as many lighter kids (103 lbers in high school) out there wrestling unless you have 50 kids in wrestling, which is an occurrence in a couple of KS schools, but it is not very common. Most of the varsity 103s cut, so why not move it to 107 and adjust the other weights to give the congested weights some more opportunities to participate.

Tate - I see your point. But I think there is still many more kids coming in or staying around the 95-107 range compared to the numbers of wrestlers that will be heavier than 200. More weights the better but the NFHS are talking about cutting weight classes. Also, I will take a full team that each kid has 8-10 years experience over a full team with 2 or 3 years experience for each kid everytime.

All this stuff is so much tripe. I will grant you that there will be some 100 lb kids that will have a hard time wrestling as a freshman or sophomore for having to wrestle "up." For that matter, how many freshmen wrestle, successfully at 189?

We simply can't set the rules to cover everyone, particularly a small minority. You see the statistics. 5% of the high school male population weighs less than 107 lbs and the same holds for over 285. So 90% of the population will fall into those weight categories and approximately 7% of the population will be in each weight bracket itself. All this other stuff is really immaterial. There is no other sport that facilitates competition between like sized individuals for 90% of the high school population.........and that is the bottom line....not the 5% at either end.

I didn't want to go here, but I guess I am going to. I would say pound for pound, so to speak, the lighter weight freshman are better quality wrestlers than their heavier freshman counterparts (lower 5% versus upper 5%). That may very well be because they have more opportunities to get a good volume of quality matches at a younger age, and more kids in the wrestling room to practice with that are near their age and weight. I see it in our wrestling room and have seen it for many years. At an early age, there are a lot more smaller guys than bigger guys which gives them an advantage to hone their skills at an earlier age. I believe that 103 should be the starting end of the weight classes for high school. From there, make adjustments as needed to get the bigger guys a better equilibrium between weights.

I learned a long time ago that figures lie and liars figure. All that says is any set of data can be used to prove both the pro and con.

I rwecommend that you look at the pondage and percentage differientials between weight classes:

103 to 112 = 9 lbs/ 8.7%
112 to 119 = 7 lbs/ 6.25%
119 to 125 = 6 lbs/ 5%
125 to 130 = 5 lbs/ 3.85%
130 to 135 = 5 lbs/ 3.85%
140 to 145 = 5 lbs/ 3.6%
171 to 189 = 18 lbs/ 10.5%
189 to 215 = 26 lbs/ 13.75%
215 to 285 = 70 lbs/ 32.5%

I would think if anything needs to be done it would be to even out the per centage differientials between a weight classes--some which are gerossly unfair.

To do that other issues have to be considered:
1) The normal bell curve distribution of wrestlers across all weight classes. Lots of wrestlers at all ages in the welter and middle weights (lets use 125 to 160) and fewer wrestlers above and below those weights.
2) The grossly largest differientials are between the 4 top weights 171 to 285. Be realistic, what chance does a 225 pounder have against a decent 285--virtually none. Yeah Yeah--exceptions happen!!
3) It would not be feasible to establish a set percentage differiential between all weight classes. The bell curve distribution would have the weight classes skewed to the heavier weights--with not enough wrestlers to fill the added brackets--while the welter and middle weight classes would have to be reduced and the differientials increased--which could result in not enough weights for the number of wrestlers.

AS Option D, how about:
103 no change or a very small increase to 106
112 No change
119 No change
126 replaces 125
133 rplaces 130
141 replaves 135
149 replaces 140
158 replaces 145
167 replaces 152
177 replaces 160
190 replaces 171
210 replaces 189
240 replaces 215
252 is a new weight class
285 no change

This scheme is constructed using a 6% differiential between 119 and the 177 weights.

Why not just leave the current lower weights and differientials as they are, add at least one mor bracket in the heavier weights, and slightly increase the diffierientials in the welters and middle weights. Although the new weights aoppear to have wide spreads, they are not that great. Plus by being a few pound difference that allow wrestlers to either cut or add weight as they and their coaches choose.

Maybe not the answer, but another thought!!

You wouldnt need a 240 and a 252, but either one or the other would be nice to have.