Folks,

I have been asked to lead a committee to look at if we need to have a clear definition of Novice and then make a recommendation to the state board. The committe has representatives from each of the 4 districts. The people on the committee are listed below.....

District 1: Shawn Budke, Sean McCarthy
District 2: Melissa Shoaf, Charlie Knox, Sarah Hartley
District 3: Lance Engel
District 4: Greg Pelland, Chris Normandin

The committee's goal is to look at a variety of options of how we (the state) would define Novice, look at the pros and cons, and then make a recommendation to the state board. Our intent is to present the options to the state board and then eventually to the state body for a vote.

This topic is designed to get your input and ideas so we can take them into consideration. Please do not turn this into a gripe session about individuals that should or should not be wrestling in Novice tournaments. Please provide constructive ideas so we can move ahead as a state organization.

Feel free to post your comments and ideas on here, PM me, or contact any of the district reps.

We plan on keeping you updated on our progress and the ideas we collect as we move forward in this process.

Thanks for your time and any inputs you may have.

Shawn Budke

I think truly 1st yer wrestlers.

nov·ice [ nóvviss] (plural nov·ic·es) noun : Definition: 1. beginner: somebody who is beginning or learning an activity and has acquired little skill in it

Even it their 1st year was 4-5 novice tournament with no open places. They know more than a 1st year wrestler, what to expect at the tournament, what it sounds like feels like and all the other stuff that goes on.

That also de-rails the "well my wrestler is a second year kids that is really advanced for a novice"

Give them their first year, then start taking your lumps like it used to be, there are still plenty of venues for b and even C brackets.

First year only would definitely make it easier to understand and to enforce. I guess you just have to hope that after that you go to tournaments that have enough C wrestlers that you don't get your butt kicked every time. If everybody were abiding by that same guideline, there would probably be more true C wrestlers at the opens to compete against.

I have an 8-year-old who has wrestled 6 tournaments now over two seasons (2 opens listed as D class and 4 novices) and the best he has done is second. He got a second at Rossville entered as a D and his bracket included only D and C wrestlers. His two wins came against other Ds, not against the C wrestler for the gold. So while he has placed at an open now, it was primarily in competition with novice level wrestlers.

The worst feeling in the world for a new wrestling kid and parent is to get on that mat for the first time and get truly manhandled by a kid who either has much more non-tournament experience (i.e. an older sibling who wrestles), who wrestled a full season already, or who has enough natural talent to be wrestling C right from the start. The kid who wins easily in that situation doesn't learn much from the experience either. I understand wanting your kid to experience some success, we have been on the receiving end of a lot of losses between my two boys so far and it's certainly not as fun as winning. But the spirit of competition also means that if a kid is good enough to wrestle C from the start, maybe that's where s/he should start. Mine will do maybe two more novices this year and will continue to enter as a novice at his opens unless he wins somewhere, then we will probably enter as a C.

i think we all have to take a step back and look at this as a big picture. our goals are to produce these kids to get to the highschool level. if the kids are not having fun they will not want to come back. if they dont come back our numbers will take a hit. the way it is now we have very few complaints. yes every year there are 1 or 2 tournaments that someone complains about a kid. novice is a beginners to get them ready for the next level. my 2nd year 6 year old is what i call and in betweener. he gets his butt kicked at the opens. he has wrestled 1 novice and won. had one close match and ran one move. had one coach complaining about him using a cradle. he ran the move cause thats just about all he knows. he tries to bull his way and it works in novice but not opens. i say stop the crying let the young kids have fun and get the open kids ready for the next level. get the kids ready for jr. high. get the jr high kids ready for highschool.

A 10 year old novice will catch on a lot faster then a 4 or 5 year old novice. I think 2 years is reasonable for the young ones. Top of 8 and up should't need more then a year.
My first boy (Mark) was a first year novice on the bottom of 6 and under. He went to 7 tournaments and got 1st place 4 times, 2nd place once, and 4th at the Championships. Clearly we didn't think he needed another year in novice but some people did.
My next son (Max) will start novice next year and i think he will need 2 years in novice. Some kids have it and some don't. Bottom of 8 on down need 2 years.

Mark Butcher

Leave it like it is! Each tournament should be allowed to determine what is or isn't a novice in their view. If you don't like their definition, then don't go! As Bockover said, there are few complaints and the system is NOT broken.

i don't think the rule needs changed at all. the rule needs enforced. tournament directors need to post the rule on their flyer. the club directors need to enforce the rule within their club. what are we going to do? pull a kid's usa card because he knows more moves than your kid? my son has learned alot more than your typical 6 yr old wrestler, but he can't think and perform at the same time. he hates to lose (his best finish is 2nd, and holds a 6-6 record, but he will not wrestle a novice tournament after this year. if he can't place at opens he will learn to get better. parents/ coaches be careful novice tournaments produce novice wrestlers. i've seen kids wrestle for 5 years in novice tournaments, they will always be novice until they are forced to learn how to compete, and challenge themselves to get better.

All good points..maybe just 1st year isn't good enough.

What about so many sanctioned novice tournaments? Like Derby Valley Center...etc that the kids are tracked and are allowed to go to 6 or 8 or some number before they aren't considered novice for those anymore.

1-2 years based on how a kid picks things up. The longer a kid is left novice the longer you prevent him from being able to compete in top level open competition. However physical and mental handicaps should also factor in. Can you honestly tell me a kid with down syndrome who loves to come participate would be forced to go open after a time limit someone has set for them to be novice expires? Or what about the kid with 1 leg that loves to compete with little success? Do we demand that those 2 situations fall in the same criteria of time? Surely there must be exceptions a club can use common judgement on.

It is very hard to put a number on this. just think of it this way. How many times do you have to show a kids a setout? Some of them learn the 3rd try some after 20 times still do it wrong.

My son got compained about 2 years ago.It was his 2nd year. He was running a few moves on a very new kid.I had to tell him what moves to use and where to put his hands.The coach we where against got very mad and said we should have just pinned the kid and got it over.Where do the kids learn in this,win quick thing.In his 2nd year we did open and novice as much as we could. He won more open tournaments than novice.

It come down to how good the kid learns.I think here in the US we put to much emphasis on trying to be equal.

This is a tough subject. I too have a 6 year old in his second year, however, he is struggling. He went to his first novice of the season this past weekend and it was a little easier, but still had to fight to get 2/4 wins. I think that coaches/parents need to be responsible for not letting second year kids go to these if they are successful at opens and that doesn't mean they have to win them ALL to not qualify for novice that means if they are placing don't let them in. I know for a fact some people use the excuse that their kids are 2nd year and that is all they take in to consideration. That isn't fair to the 2nd year kids that are still struggling.

If my son was having more success and more wins in opens and still not placing then I certainly would hold him out of novice, but that just isn't the case. That said we do not put a lot of emphasis on winning just that he has fun and does his best.

I think this is a great idea but do agree with some I've read, I don't think theres a problem with the rules. Its developing a way to police it properly. I really don't have any ideas on how to do it? I do believe that it falls into the laps of the coaches to determine novice or open. It can't be left to the parents after all no one wants to see thier kids go from winning in novice to lossing in open.

From what I've seen some kids and parents look at it as something that they have to do. It should be thier goal and privledge to be an open wrestler. Thats where they should want to be. If a club has a wrestler thats wrestling novice and has been for a while and is successful and doesn't move up its the club that should be held responsible

Novice is a measurement of skill not a measurement of tenure!!!
There is really no way to decide, track, and enforce who should wrestle novice.
If you say ok, if you take 1st or 2nd five times then you have to go open...
Well at some age and weights that is going to be after 5 tournaments just based on entry numbers.
We all know the novice status is abused by some.
I think this committiee can make some suggestions but at the end of the day its up to the club to enforce the right decission for their wrestler.
The thing that makes me laugh the most is when people are wrestling novice and they are clearly beyond that level, do you not think that everyone around you notices what you are doing?
How embarrassing!!!

I also hope we don't come up with some sort of "intermeadiate" classification!
There is plenty of ways to get your novice wrestler plenty of mat time as a C or D ranked open wrestler.
Be realistic when you sign them up for a tournament.
On the weekends of Maize or Salina when you know they are only going to run one bracket per age and weight then you have 3 choices: take the weekend off, go and expect to wrestle thru the back side of the bracket, or have coaches willing to invest time in your "intermeadiate" wrestlers and split your club up and go to 2 different tournaments!
"But we don't have enough coaches" or "one kid is an open stud and our other is just learning and we don't want to split up every weekend"
Hey I hear what your saying and I get it! I understand there are tough choices you have to make!
But if you want them to be a better wrestler and grow with the sport and love the sport then take them to a smaller tournament where they will find kids with similar skill level and hopefully a round robin bracket. They will have plenty of chances to run into those other kids throught the season.
At the end of the day its up to the club to do what is best for their wrestlers and do whatever it takes to make them a successfull open wrestler who loves the sport.
Is that easy? Nope!
Is there exceptions to EVERY rule? Yep!

The underlying factor is coaches need to communicate with parents.Once a 3rd year wrestler struggles in open parents want to drop to novice so their kids win. I like to see my kid win as much as anyone,but this is the wrong approach.The reason a kid loses is he still reaches back on bottom,he looks into a half,he relies on headlocks as an only takedown,etc.A 3rd yr. wrestler may out strength or still overcome these flaws in novice where kids are still learning stance,penetration steps,etc.The flaws then never get corrected.Open a wrestler wont have success until they actually correct flaws.We look for improving not winning novice olympics.Old habits and tendancies are hard to break until they must be broken.

Thank you all so much for your thoughts and input. Keep it coming. We knew this is going to be a challenge to get our arms around and to be honest I am not sure if there is a great solution.

We greatly appreciate the feedback so please keep it coming.

Shawn Budke

I have one question that might help clear thing up for me anyways.

What is the driver for this "classification" of novice wrestlers?

Is it to keep the "better" novices out of novice tourneys?

Novice tourney weren't as available when my boys started. I personally thought it made then better without them.

I was selective in the tourneys I went to how close, B and C brackets possible, try to make a good experience win lose or draw. That was our first year. Then the second went to a few more and learned what it took to win in the opens.

I know that if my youngest son got a medal at every one he went to when he was younger and learning, that he wouldn't have had the drive to get better.

Everyone need to realize that walking away without a medal and just taking a kicking can change for the good also, when the time is right though.

This is how I look at novice... a wrestler that has wrestled 2yrs or less. You are no longer Novice if you have wrestled at and won an Open tournament no matter if you are a 1st or 2nd year wreslter. If the parents and coaches feel that you are ready for Open tournaments it is encouraged if you are successful then you do not go back to the Novice side of things.

If you are a wrestler that only wants to practice or go to one or two tournaments a season then you need to be encouraged to attend additional tournaments or you will never feel ready to move on to the Open tournaments. Some young wrestlers if their parents are just getting involved don't feel rushed to attend many tournaments. It is not like baseball or basketball...when you sign up to play either of those sports you have a set schedule with 2 games a week and a tournament at the end of the season.
In wrestling it is up to the parents to get their kids on the mat and wrestling!

perfect statement BLT, this is not easy. and shame on the parents, coaches, clubs, who don't get that message acrossed clearly. this is the best sport in the world, but it will never be EASY. someone else said it best, here in the good old U.S.A we have tried to make everything equal. well it's not and it won't ever be. no matter how many committees or rules you put in place, somethings are not equal. NO TWO MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL. Committee... set some guidelines, tournament directors make them clear, coaches take charge of your club, parents challenge your kids, everyone act with honesty and integrity and let's move on.

I don't believe you can put a specific time limit on novice. It is up to the coaches in the kids programs to decide if it is time for a kid to be moved up to advanced. In years past I have seen kids get moved up to advanced halfway through the year, and we have also had kids that stay in novice for 3 years. It is definitely not right to move a kid that is having problems in advanced back down to novice for some wins and to boost confidence, boost their confidence in your own room! I have always thought it helps a kid out to get moved up into advanced, they might lose more matches, but they will improve faster. Everyone knows that you can move a 4,5, or 6 year old, 37-44 pounder into advanced and they will be wrestling mostly novice kids anyway. Its also easier to leave kids in the slower moving novice practice for them to get the basics drilled into them, and enter them in advanced tournaments, you don't have to move them out of your novice practice just because they are in advanced tournaments. Good luck putting a definition on novice, we have tried to do this for years, and it hasn't happened yet. Get all the board members on the same page first, some of them don't understand novice!