My post on another thread regarding this subject:

quote:
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Originally posted by Bronco Wrestler:
I personally have nothing wrong with it, whatever gets you motivated, but according to KSHSAA rules a wrestling tournament is a school sponsored event and the separation of church of state law would apply

Alex
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Actually what the constitution says in the First Amendment is:



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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
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Student led and initiated prayer, Bible Study, or whatever related to religious (any religion) expression has been upheld in federal courts and the Supreme Court for years. Perceptions like the one made here are actually misperceptions that even educators often have, although, and albeit mistaken. Sometimes they err on the side of caution but that can not be done in such a way that prevents the free exercise of the individual. Group led prayers, or religious activities (specifically by the state or government run organization) is what the Constitution speaks of. The key is student led. This is why you see students at football games often get together to pray after the game and sometimes even before the game. It is why you also see student led Bible studies and activities like FCA taking place at schools. Again, the key is being student led. A link with numerous resources follows: http://www.aclj.org/Issues/InDepth.aspx?ID=40

My son always prays before a match for safety of both wrestlers and that he would do his best. We once had a ref put his hands on my son right before a match, during the prayer, and tell him to get to the center and wrestle and that he should “take care of business before you get on the mat.” This whole process for him only takes about 30 seconds immediately after getting on the mat. He grabs his band, puts it on and says a quick prayer. This was one of the times the ref and I had a “little discussion” at the conclusion of the mat, actually after he cautioned me for saying “I can’t believe what I just saw to the other coach in the corner with me.” By the way it was one of the few times I actually saw where the ref was booed by the spectators at the match.

Now to this particular thread.

Since the post I have had some thoughts about when the prayer should take place. First understand, that I have never told my son to pray, it is something he started on his own and has been doing now for some time. I am thinking of telling him to pray before the band goes on. It is very possible that this not distract or take time from the mat if the wrestler hurries out to do it. Everyone here knows that there is always almost some time before the start of the match. All of that being said, I think there are some valid points, that once the band is on, then the person needs to be ready to wrestle so that is something I am thinking about. However, that decision should ultimately be up to the individual wrestler, and if they are in violation of any rules as determined by the official, they must be willing to accept the consequences of that violation. It would be interesting to know what rules might apply here and if they are even addressed.

I really don't think very many wrestlers who pray, prays to win. I honestly think that most prayers are just like the one mentioned by fris. I know that is the prayer of my son, to do his best and that no one would get hurt. These prayers can also be used as a time for thanks and request, for example, "Lord thank you that I have this opportunity to wrestle. Be with little guys like Tyler Graebner who would love to be here. I also ask that you would be with the table workers, coaches and officials to stay focused and do their job. Help me respect them and my opponenet. Keep us both safe and may we all do our best. Amen." A prayer like this takes less than 20 seconds and I believe is appropriate. By the way as to the time issue, this weekend I saw 2 kids pray before their match at a kids tourney, and at High School Duals, of which I have been to about 7 this year I have seen 1 kid pray. I just don't see what the issue is about the time of those doing it.

[img]http://pic15.picturetrail.com/VOL613/2977456/6058073/84429084.jpg?SSImageQuality=Full[/img]

Prayer is a motivation for a match. Not a free wn.

I think where most people have a "problem" with prayer on the mat (and I don't mean problem as, "they shouldn't do that") falls in the lines of possible legitimacy. It's the perception that eats at those who don't agree.

First off, there's no laws being broken. It's perfectly allowed. There are some technical rules that apply and Nigel can give us the rule number, but wrestlers are to report to the table and directly to the mat. As a technicality, stopping for a moment of silence is technically a violation of wrestling protocol.

With that being said, no official at an rank, be it HS, kids, or Olympic has ever "dinged" a participant for such activity. Wouldn't be too smart, it would end his/her career as an official.

With that being said, each person worships their diety in a different manner. For myself, I chose to keep my personal relationship with God private because it's between God and me. Others are much more vocal and display their relationship with God outwardly.

The problem is that many skeptics don't see this as a true prayer, but a show. According to them, this display does nothing more than belittle the opponent because they didn't squat down and say a prayer or they will claim that the kid shouldn't do it because he's done something wrong (a problem child, been in trouble at school, has drank alcohol, broke the law, etc.)

Quite often I'll quiet them down by telling them, tactfully, that each of us have sinned at some point in our life and we have asked for forgiveness and hopefully God will do just that. If the kid is asking for forgiveness or whatever, so be it. He can and should do it whenever or wherever he wants.

I remember as a kid, my great grandfather never went to church on Sunday and when I would stay at his house over the summer, we would quite often be on the water fishing while church was going on. One day I asked him why he doesn't go to church and he told me, "boy you're in church right now. God made this fishing hole and every time I'm out here, I reflect on all that he has given us. You don't need to go to church for that."

Granted, there are many in the religious community that would adamantly say he's wrong, but in my relationship with God, he's right on various levels.

So who's to say that it's right/wrong. Legally speaking, those who choose to do so are in their legal rights. As for my personal opinion of the matter, God hasn't called upon me to tell them to quit it and I'll be darned if I'll be the one to say stop.

It's lame, but if you want to do it...whatever.

Its not lame! I don’t call myself a church going person, but if someone wants to pray it is their right! I have to believe that those who are sincere about praying are only praying for their safety and the safety of the their opponent, and not about winning.
There is absolutely no rule in wrestling that prohibits a wrestler from praying before a match as an individual, and if their was, it would be challenged and changed very quickly.

I never said a person shouldn't be able to do it. Of course they have the right to do it. However, this right does not make it any less lame.

Lack of consideration, Lack of class, Insulting someone’s belief system, Immaturity.
All things I consider to be even more lame!

Coach Neil--
I think you are misunderstanding me here. I am not insulting anyone's belief system. If you want to pray when warming up before a wrestling match--hey--pray 'till you're blue in the face. That's cool. But when you wait for the moment when you are in the spotlight to call attention to yourself via praying, that, my friend, is lame. Praying after putting on your leg band is similar to the receiver who kneels down to thank God for helping him score a touchdown or the pitcher who signs a cross to thank Jesus for the power to strike someone out. You never see someone bend over and pray after they get stuck. You know why? Because no one wants the spotlight on themselves in that situation, and all praying on stage does is draw attention to yourself. In my opinion, that's lame.

No wrestlersmom,

I hope the impression from my posts didn't give you the idea that praying before a match was praying to win. As I mentioned before I think of the praying as a motivational technique. Now if a wrestler really is thinking in their head "Please Lord let me win this match" Then I do believe their efforts are misguided. As far as rules interpretations go, if a wrestler wants to kneel down after they place their leg back on for 2-4 seconds I generally don't have a problem with that, but really Im of the opinion that they should get that stuff done right before the come on to the mat to check in, im fairly sure their higher power of choice will be listenening then as well.

That was my rationale in assuming you believed that's what wrestlers were praying for, but you seem to have cleared it up.

a lot of wrestlers jog a few steps from the center of the mat to put there leg band on, slap there thighs, jump up and down, or whatever before the start of the match. other wrestlers kneel and close there eyes, most are praying but i think also some take a couple seconds just to try to clear there mind for the match. there are all kinds of routines which take 10 seconds before a match, if prayer is a problem then so is everything else. everyone should be able to do there own thing, a 10 second prayer doesnt hurt anyone.

i say the lords prayer before every match in a corner of the gym and then i pray.

Technically, slapping your legs, praying, clearing your head, running to the outer edge to put your leg band on, and other routines are against the rules.

You are to show up to the center prepared. Everything is considered delaying the match and Nigel can post the correct rule number.

Even though it's a technicality, most officials opt to not inforce the infraction because it eats such little time.

I don't see why prayer is such a touchy subject. Freedom of speech. I don't think people should be criticized for there public showing of respect toward God, Budda, Allah or any other thing.

I tell my guys it is ok to pray on the mat, but it is not ok to be prey on the mat!!

If rules are being broken then why aren't they being enforced? I have no problem with praying. It is when it is going on. Once the leg band goes on it is time to wrestle. Take care of any business before that. No matter why someone has to wait after the leg band goes on..it does draw attention and those that are praying are taking advantage of "ref's know it happens but won't enforce it because it is praying" etc. Anyone who does anything after the leg band goes on is drawing attention to themselves. It is simple..take care of business and when the leg band goes on take care of business. One of these days a ref WILL enforce the rule and what do you have to fall back on? I call it disrespect for religion knowingly doing something that might cause confrontation and harm and breaking rules all for the sake of personal beliefs. All that do it have gotten away with it for the simple reason no one is going to want to deal with all the darn paperwork. I believe in prayer...my boys tell me it is no big deal when someone wants to pray BUT there are rules and if this is not enforced then the only people who have a right to say anything are those who want to make sure other rituals don't play into post leg band. What is to stop someone who devil worships from having someone be mat-side with a candle he must blow out post leg band before every match? It is simple..take care of business before you put your leg band on. No one is trying to stop prayer and no one wants to have to deal with what may be started if it isn't enforced.

Here, here, NurseKS. By the way...are you one of those sexy nurses?

As I stomp my foot and raise my fist and try to be offended alas I remember this is just the net and so I calmly answer..no.

This was in one of the readings at the Ash Wednesday services today:
From the Gospel of Matthew
"When you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, who love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that others may see them. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go to your inner room, close the door, and pray to your father in secret. And your father who sees in secret will repay you."

Public prayer at Ash Wed. Service???? Ash Wednesday service takes place in a church of worship...therefore eliminating the "public" part. It is accepted and encouraged to show signs of worship. Not the same as a gym on game day! It should be up to the wrestler to risk the dink by the official if he wants to. Prayer at any time is a good thing if it is truly prayer.