Now I am confused.

Gibby,

I do not disagree with your points about academics but a few posts up you mentioned that success is defined as the number of state champions one produces. Didn't see anything in there about academically proficient athletes.

My point: In my opinion you can define success based on the number of champions one produces....it is a way. I think it is only one of many ways of defining success.

I submit that wrestling is one of the few, if not the only sport that teaches young athletes a lot of valuable lessons that can be applied in life as an adult. Examples: discipline, character, sportsmanship, work ethic, etc. I feel it is a disservice to the sport to narrowly focus success purely on number of championships. Wrestling is too great of a sport to limit the potential effects that it can have, coaches can have, etc. on influencing young athletes.

I have been out of high school now for over 20 years. I can tell you that the most influential people I had in my life were the myriad of coaches I had as a little kid in wrestling and more importantly my high school coach. I am so thankful that he took a broader perspective on defining success because the lessons I learned from him via wrestling have carried me through life a lot farther than just my success on the mat as a wrestler. He is the reason I coach today. My personal coaching goal is that I hope some day, some where one of the kids I have coached will look back and say that having me coach him helped him be a productive member of society and that we learned some valuable "life: lessons together.

My intent is not to criticize you or your beliefs. I respect those. My intent is to just offer a broader perspective.

Look forward to meeting you sometime.

Budke,

Sorry about the confusion. I made reference to state champs in an effort to squash Vikes' referring to IMAC and Maur Hill and then talking about Iowa and the school he is at currently. People selectively create "success" in their own terms, then identify how they were a success. Because they build their own parameters, they judge themselves as a success.

Success is a subjective idea. For one it's state champs, for others it's keeping a program alive. The question is what do we mean when we say success?

For Gutwrench, success as a state means D1 athletes. He contends that Kansas doesn't have D1 calliber athletes. I say bull.

Vikes believes success for him in Kansas was to keep alive a program, which by the way died once he left. I don't fault him, but the initial post dealt with D1 athletes. Since we are dealing with the initial post, he had no room to speak on the matter.

Then again, I've yet to create a D1 prospect, so maybe I don't either. I've met with some people that have and oddly enough, they believe the same thing I do. Then again, Kansas hasn't had all that many, so maybe we're washed up.

So what does it take?

1. National exposure. If you are just sitting at home March through July, you are not exposing yourself to coaches. Fargo is a meat market for talent and if you aren't producing there, most D1 coaches won't know who you are. This is their place to spot kids for their teams. Zach Allen comes to mind.

2. Intense dedication. I know of two kids in the Topeka area that have the dedication that coaches that level are looking for. This does not mean they will be offered or accept a D1 offer, it means they have the skills and work ethic.

3. Academic acalades. I'm probably speaking out of turn, but I'll use Brady Lamar who signed with Nebraska as an example. His work ethic is supurb, but ability (as of today) might be a little suspect. What Brady has is an excellent academic rating and the test scores to show it. I know he's a real wiz at math. So a coach might be willing to take a chance on him because there is the possibility of Brady making huge leaps and bounds in wrestling. If he doesn't, he's got academic scholarships that will pay the way. Cost to the program = $0. So they'll take a chance on him because if he doesn't pan out, it didn't hurt them financially.

This is not the case with football. I was fortunate enough to coach in a football staff that housed Rashaad Washington (NY Jets), Dante McCoy (Sullivan award finalist - I think that's what DII Hiesman equivalents win) and John Randle (KU's star running back and subsequently kicked off the team). The football budget has room for chances (100+ athletes). Wrestling does not.

I agree that wrestling has many more success stories out there that have nothing to do with wins/losses, but when you're interviewing for positions w/l are in important.

Gibby,

Thanks for the response. I agree with what you stated. Academics are definately very critical and play an important role in getting into D1 schools. There are also a lot of other factors, which have been discussed in this thread.

Did you see my post about getting a program in KS? Personally, I think that given the level of wrestling folks like you and others have produced in this state it is a shame that KS kids don't have an opportunity to wrestle D1 in KS. I think if that was offered KS would see a definate increase in the number of kids going to D1 programs.

I'm from MT and when I was in college, MT State and U of M cut their programs the year after U of M won the national championship (for their level). I had a lot of friends that hung up their shoes at the point. I also know a lot of folks that focused on other sports just so they could get an in-state scholarship even though they were scholarship level wrestlers.

Thank you for the professional dialogue.

Gutwrench,

Now that the kids from Kansas went outside the state to get more competition. Here are a few more numbers for you - after bashing the Kansas kids and coaches.

State Totals All three grades at Brute

Iowa - 345.0
Kansas - 773.5
Missouri - 703.5
Nebraska - 411.0

Gibby don't bash justin Ware he won 4times in high school won senior nationals and started for nebraska as a freshman got beat out of nationals and quit, what did you ever do lets here some stats on yourself stud.

oh and ark city had two 4timers Devin Bahm was the other.

oh and ark city had two 4timers Devin Bahm was the other.

oh and scotty goodale was a division 2 national champ chris hernandez went to OU, eddie borror went to OU, and many more just can't think of, but how can you say "high school" TKSNKC so that would get you off of ark city just being a good high school, and fellas don't be mad that most of you older guys have been beat by ark city guys okay peace out.

enough we all know Ark City's history, until you break varsity stay off here

If I'm not mistaken you were the one on here a Friday night while the Ark City varsity was in a 2 day tournament aways from home so wouldn't have had access to this forum or a computer for that matter, and you were postin away, JV stud if I do say so myself

I'm not badmouthing JV in anyway, I was JV my freshman year, but when you talk about how good everyone else is, maybe you should train so you become how good "I" can be, not how good everyone else is. Do more training and less talking and you're right in there and making some of your own history and I wish you the best.

Alex Ryan

What a bunch of garbage.

I believe we can all agree success breeds success. Not all students at Immaculata or Leavenworth are basketball players. The recent success of the football program at Leavenworth High School, a one year turn around by a new coach, proves my point. Fact is the lack of producing a winning program at Immaculata directly impacted participation by students who were not basketball players. Last I knew, part of the job of the high school coach is to promote the program in school and recruit in school athletes to participate and grow the program.

Sadly, the former coach was unsuccessful in his endeavors and the program was dropped.

The one thing I can't deny is the fact Imac had Good Sportsmanship across the board at every tournament I saw them at during my years in high school. They didn't have thugs or punks getting technicals for throwing headgear like some schools do, if they lost they were disappointed and left the mat shaking an opposing coach's hand and attently listening how to improve the next time around. Sadly there is no longer this program which leaves a sore spot amongst many of us.

AC, I never bashed Ware. I asked where he was. That's legitimate concern.

And maybe I got my history wrong, but I thought Ware wrestled at University of Nebraska at Omaha. Not Lincoln, there's a distinction there. Anyone care to clarify?

I also apologize for forgetting Bahm. His older brother, Dustin, and I are friends here in Topeka. I haven't seen Dustin in a while to keep up with little bro, where's he at nowadays?

As for poorly written posts by ACbulldog, I never get tired of it:

"Gibby(,) don't bash (J)ustin Ware. (H)e won (state) 4 ( ) times in high school(,) won senior nationals(,) and started for nebraska as a freshman. (He) got beat out of nationals and quit. (W)hat did you ever do(?) (L)ets here (spelled as "hear," but you can't really "hear" stats on the internet, you "read" them moron) some stats on yourself(,) stud."

Gibby stats:
Wrestled in high school.
Wrestled in college.
Graduated college.
Teacher of English.
Provides humor on forum.

And most important to you AC - would flunk you, without hesitation, if you ever came into my classroom. I have no qualms in failing an idiot.

Speaking of idiots, here's some interesting stats on AC alma mater/current school the state produced in regards to academics.

The following stats are available from 2004:

Reading
ACHS 16.9% vs. the entire state's 11.5% Unsatisfactory rating.

In Math (same year)
ACHS 29.5% vs. the entire state's 20.6% Unsatisfactory rating.

Science (same year)
ACHS 20.1% vs. entire state's 23.4% Unsatisfactory rating. Hey the state beat you on one! I'm sure there's a funny meth lab joke here somewhere, I just can't find the stats.

Social Studies (same year)
ACHS 17.9% vs. entire state's 15.5%
Unsatisfactory rating. History was never AC's strong point as he forgot Melvin Douglas the Olympian was a Topeka native.

Writing (same year)
ACHS 25.3% vs. enite state's 21.9%
Unsatisfactory rating. This one is odd because teachers grade their student's writing assessment. I know, I've graded them. Even the teachers at ACHS believe they are unsatisfactory in academics.

Oh, and new Gibby stat:
Able to use a computer to look up something other than web page posts. It took me all of five minutes.

Ware wrestled for the University of Nebraska!

Are we sure this isn't Bam Mangera's uncle?

AC:

"(O)h and (S)cotty (G)oodale was a division 2 national champ. (C)hris (H)ernandez went to OU, (E)ddie (B)orror went to OU, and many more (-) just can't think (if that isn't the understatement of the century. Oh and put a (.) there). (B)ut how can you say "high school" TKSNKC? (S)o that would get you off of (A)rk (C)ity just being a good high school. (A)nd fellas(,) don't be mad that most of you older guys have been beat by ark city guys(,) okay(?) (P)eace out.

What? "Don't be mad" and "Peace out"? One kid gets a Topac Shakur tape for the tape deck and now the whole town is "down."

Yeah, peace out, pimp.

Oh and thanks Richard.

How would I break into varsity was on varsity all 4 years alex Why don't you break into placing at state scrub,

Gibby, calm down there buddy. Retards don't bash other retards you have said that before.

And alex when did I ever say that I was in high school I've been out of high school back before you had pubes.