Are there published novice guidelines? I know that a novice wrestler can be a first or second year wrestler, but what about a second year wrestler that is placing on Saturday and then wrestling novice on Sunday and killing everybody in his bracket. I know this topic has has been discussed before, but I think it is time that something was seriously done about this issue. I think definate guidelines should be in place to try to combat some of the problem. My kid, Jordan, was pinned yesterday at Shawnee Heights by a wrestler from the Jr. Vikings club that placed second in Ottawa on Saturday. Another coach noticed him and asked him what he was doing at a novice tournament when he had placed the day before. I know that "Mark" from the Jr. Vikings club posted in another area that he is only a "second year wrestler". But sometimes we have to suck it up and give the less advanced wrestlers a chance. My Jordan knows when he goes to a tournament on Sunday, he will be meeting this kid and he knows that he is going to get beat. Great learning experience for him, isn't it. It also seems to be a thing in the Lawrence club the Jayhawks. They have many wrestlers placing on Saturday and killing little kids on Sunday. Why? Is it for the medal count? For mat time? What? We need novice guidelines and we need them soon.

Kids wrestling fan, I am a jayhawk kids parent. All of the wrestlers that compete at novice tournaments for us are 1 year wrestlers. We took them all to Ottawa on Sat. to evaluate them and see if they were ready to move up to open. A few of them are. But it was to late to pull them at Topeka. If you are talking about any kid in particular please let one of our coaches know. You also must take into consideration that not all of their novice matches are not slams. 8 kids yesterday, 3 first, 2 seconds and 3 thirds. Some thirds were three man brackets. We took all the kids to Paola at the start of the year, and they got their butts kicked. Our coaches wanted the kids to see what open was all about. They cried like babies. Now they have gotten some confidence and learned some new stuff and are ready to go back to open. As a parent I assure you if you have any questions about any of our kids, the coaches will be more than happy to sit down and discuss it with you. Don't rush to judgment without knowing all the facts. We have two kids that are truly open kids and some other first year kids that we are moving up. If you only had 10 junior high kids in your club, how fast could you teach them. Our coaches constantly tell the kids that novice tournaments are not about winning and losing. It's about trying out some new moves that were taught that week. We as parents are very happy with the job that our coaches have done with our children. We have a girl that is coming on strong and all the boys cheer for her. We have a kid with Downs Syndrome who has never won a match, and all the kids help and cheer for him too. We have also had kids out with injuries that are just now entering their 3rd tournament. :rolleyes:

Also, which tournament and which kid are you talking about? I asure you that you are not aware of all the facts. We hear what people are saying and have to laugh because we know the facts and are ready and willing to share them with anyone who can tell us exactly what the gripe is. :rolleyes:

I also feel that if a kid is placing week after week at the open level, then he should be moved up. But you have to look at the whole picture. Did he place third with only three people in his bracket? Did he place second in a four man bracket with two other novice wrestlers in the open bracket with him? You just can't look at the results on the internet and see the whole picture! Our coaches really have the best intrest of our children at heart. Novice, we feel is for getting kids ready for the next level. That means trying new moves that they learn to see if they work. If they try and fail to execute a particular move correctly in a novice tournament, then they still have time to recover. In an open they will be pinned. If you truly feel that our kids are more advanced than your kids, then maybe you should join our club. I am sure our coaches would love to have them. Our kids are truly first year wrestlers. Please remember, it's all about the kids.

Just because a first year kid (or second year, for that matter) places in an "open" tournament, that shouldn't, and doesn't, mean that the kid isn't a "novice"...When I first started wrestling Kansas Kids in the early 80s, I would go to both kinds of tournaments...Some weeks I would do well at an open, but not well at the novice, or vice versa...A lot of times it depends on the tournaments and the competition that is there...

Personally, I feel that a "novice" is ANY kid that has two or fewer years of experience, regardless of their so-called success...

I guess I will weigh in on this topic again. I will try to keep my comments short and to the point. I agree with Kids Wrestling Fan that clarification on this issue is needed … obviously for different reasons. I do not feel that there is a system that can be put in place to please everyone. Believe it or not, I have been on both sides of this issue. It is important that we focus our energy ensuring the novice circuit serves the purpose of introducing “all” young wrestlers to the sport. I gave a detailed narrative on my views earlier in the year. You can review my previous post if interested.

Kids Wrestling Fan has chosen to use my 12-88# wrestler as a test case. I have no objection to this. Let this forum be the jury … but I would like you to have all the facts before you pass judgement. The young man in question came to our club last year as a first year wrestler. He is a good student, has an excellent work ethic, and has the general “want to” attitude that makes him a very competitive wrestler. Last year, at the topside of the 10-year-old bracket, he competed in very few tournaments on the open circuit. However, he did very well in the practice room. This year we started him out competing in open tournaments early. He is a leader in our practice room and wanted to travel with the team and compete in Saturday tournaments. He had very little success at the open level. Week in and week out rookie mistakes often cost him. In his first four tournaments of the year his record was 2-8 and he did not place. Because he is a second year wrestler, he had the opportunity to travel on the novice circuit and further develop his skills. He still has a long way to go and the season is winding down. However, this wrestler continues to get better week-to-week. He did place 2nd in the Ottawa tournament and was very proud of this accomplishment. I would like to note that Ottawa did a good job keeping the bracket sizes small and had several weight divisions with A and B brackets. This may explain his placement to a point. However, this wrestler worked very hard and earned the award he received on that particular Saturday. He has competed in eight open tournaments this year and his currant open tournament record has improved to 7-14. This wrestler's experiences are a testament to the good that can come from the novice circuit if you give it time. It is a great injustice for him to be pointed out as a negative example. The novice circuit allowed us to work on Saturdays mistakes the following day while they were fresh on his mind. It also allowed him to experience success which is extremely helpful in motivating wrestlers in the practice room. These two areas have lead to a much improved wrestler from December to February. Competing back to back on weekends is not for everybody. However, if you have a young wrestler that is hungry to compete in the sport and he qualifies I do not feel there should be a rule that would slow his development by limiting his weekend competition.

The one over riding factor should be safety. If a wrestler is overly aggressive for his age level or is consistently placing on Saturday parents, coaches, and club directors should then pull him from the novice circuit. I had one of my own parent/coaches concerned about the aggressiveness of a 6-37# wrestler in his son’s bracket at Shawnee Heights. My advice to the coach was similar to the comments of my previous post. My advice to the parent was that if he truly felt that wrestling the match would put his child in harms way then he should forfeit the match and move on to the next match. After all it is only a novice tournament and we are not looking to put notches in our belt. We are looking for a good learning experience.

Rome was not built in a day. I know my wrester has competed against the wrestler from Osawatomie several times this year. Each time they take the mat I see two evenly matched athletic wrestlers. I think this week was the first match that ended in a pin all year. I think Kids Wrestling Fan should get the clarification she has requested. Further direction from the state body may make all of us parents, coaches, and club directors struggling with this issue better manage our wrestlers. However, Kids Wrestling Fan’s comments make me wander if she really wants what is best for her son or if she just wants our wrestler to move on so her son can take his place at the top of the “novice” bracket. The 12-88# wrestler from Osawatomie is a good athlete and if he sticks with the sport he will develop into a great wrestler. Next year Kids Wrestling Fan might even look back and remember the matches her son had against our 12-88# wrestler and be thankful for the competition he had. Good luck.

FYI … Shawnee Heights was the last novice tournament on my 12-88# wrestler’s schedule. Hope we meet again on Saturdays! Good luck.

Mark J Stanley
President/Club Director
Jr. Viking Wrestling Club

Ions ago, when my own kid was a 2nd year wrestler, he did compete in a few novice tournaments to gain the invaluable, "mat time."

But what we did in the novice tourneys, which might be a suggestion, was to enter him at the next highest weight class.

"Novice Guidelines" have been an issue for years. But there are too many variables, many have been discussed here, to create a workable solution for all.

There are a few kids who coaches or parents should move up! But even this, takes a couple of weeks to accomplish. I would suggest the host club would be a lot more likely to move a kid up than to refund an entry fee.

I think Mr. Hinderliter have hit on a solution that people should be able to live with. I would agree that if you have a second year wrestler that is seeing some degree of success, and I would call placing regularly 3rd or 4th in an 8 man bracket successful, if they feel the need to participate in novice tournaments, let them wrestle up in age or weight. I can't see what it would benefit any wrestler to meet and beat the same wrestlers Sunday after Sunday. My commments about the wrestler from the Vikings team was just that my wrestler meets him week after week and has gotten very discouraged knowing that he is going to be beaten week after week. At first, he thought he had a chance, but after having several advance moves thrown on him (lundy, cross body ride, etc. . .) he knows he is going to get beat and I believe that is why the Viking kid was able to pin him this last weekend. I know there are other coaches and parents out there that can see this is a problem and I think it would be well worth it if there were some novice guidelines in place.

Just a bit of clarification ... I suggest moving up in weight only. Moving up in age, opens another can-of-worms!

Randy,
What can-of-worms does moving up in age create?

Article IX, Section III, Part B, Rule 4-4-1: "at no time will a wrestler be permitted to wrestle out of their age division". I think this only applies to qualifying tournaments, but I could be wrong...I think there have been many good responses to this issue, and I can somewhat sympathize with the original post, but it looks like no-body has done anything wrong. My son got whipped every time he wrestled Colton Snook his first year, and he had to wrestle him many times. He did not look forward to those matches, but it was a good experience for him, (and his parents). Getting beat can be a positive thing IF we grow by it. Some day your son might be the one who is winning and never losing, and his experiences of getting beat may help him to deal with his successes. In conclusion, I don't feel we need to add more rules which would be difficult and time-consuming to enforce. Novice tournaments are for wrestlers with two years and less experience. Unless they're winning, or consistantly placing in the top, they should be allowed to wrestle novice.

I find this very interesting that some of these complaints are about ( insert club name here )wrestlers needing to move up. :rolleyes:
What type of explanation would you give a 6 year old 37 lber. for not letting your kids wrestle him, thus giving our kid only 1 match at Shawnee Heights. You went so far as to question whether or not the kid was ACTUALLY 37 lbs. If you remember, we did weigh in!!
We were able to talk to another child a little heavier and thus able to get a second match. Incidentally this was the kids second tournament all year. He did, in fact, wrestle novice all last year, but the kid is 6 years old!! If you honestly think what you guys did as coaches helped either wrestler, you better think again. I am of the opinion that you just told YOUR wrestler that he isnt as good as this kid, and SHOULDN'T wrestle him. Is this how you coach throughout the program? Are there any other thoughts about this situation?? I have left my name.

Ok! I will shake the worms right out of the can! Not about moving up in age, but this whole topic of novice guidelines!
I know of a boy that has been wrestling for 4 years that still wrestles at novice tournaments. :rolleyes: (I wonder if anyone else has noticed?) He gets pinned at novice tournaments. Probably always will. He wrestles at open tournaments and gets pinned. Should he be banned from novice tournaments? Who cares? He's involved in the sport. Who's to say what's right? Not me.

As for moving up in age. As quoted, the State rules prohibit this for subs, district, and State. However, it is left to the discretion of the tournament director whether to accept "out of age group" wrestlers in other sanctioned events. One major concern is the liability. That same liability is minimized if you are only moving up one weight class.

As someone said earlier, there is no easy way to set novice guidelines. I am just sorry that when it is time for a kid to move up, teams hide behind the "first or second year wrestler" label and keep a clearly advanced kid in novice for whatever reason. I also believe that there is not a 6 year old out there that is to "advanced" to wrestle at a novice tournament. In our club we have 6 and under twins that wrestle 40 lbs and they are winning everything in open tournaments. Look for them at sub-districts (wrestling 8 and under) and at the 6 and under championships. They would tear all the little kids up at novice, but they do at open also because unless a kid started wrestling at 3, they are just novice wrestlers. I just find it sad that when at kid wrestles on Saturday and can hold his own, maybe not win first place every time, but hold his own, a coach will allow that wrestler to be put back in a novice tournament. And don't tell me it takes a couple of weeks to take a kid off the novice circuit. People call in all the time to change entries in tournaments. I just think there has to be a way to make the guidelines more clear to make it fair for EVERYONE. I think novice tournaments are great and they really benefit the young wrestler.

One more thing. About your boy that has been wrestling for four years and never wins and always gets pinned, I think that novice is the place for that kid to be. If you have checked with the tournament director and he or she knows the situation, there shouldn't be any problem. Wrestling is the only sport that some kids can do that have physical handicaps. And I think that is great. I makes our sport accessable to eveyone, so lets keep it fair for everyone.

Another clarification! The State nor National office recognizes 6 & Under as an age group. Therefore a five year old competing in the 8 & unders is okay! (at least they currently are)

My point that it takes a couple of weeks to transform from Novice to Opens is this. Often, if you are doing things according to Hoyle, you enter in tournaments 10 days in advance. A novice tournament, that already has my money, may or may not make a refund. If they won't, then I expect most parents will let their kids wrestle!

No where in the sport of wrestling is it said that you are "given" anything! That is what
the sport is all about. In this tread it seams
to me that there is alot of whinning going on
in hopes that their kid should have placed or
placed higher in a tournament. Why? To me there
is a place for "novice" tournaments. Same as J.V
High School tournaments. There are very good J.V.
kids out there who whould be on the Varsity or even state qualifiers if on another team.
My opinion is ALL 6 & Under's, 1st year kids, and kids who are constant losers no mater how many years they have wrestled are novice. Everyone needs to win a few, but everyone dosn't need to win first. Some are better than others. Big Deal! You will find that wherever you go. It is also my opinion that the coaches should be ethical enough to know when a kid should not wrestle in novice. Maybe next year or throughout the year they will be at a differant weight. Maybe those who don't want to wrestle a kid should try a differant weight? You maybe surprised to find the kid is better at another weight than the one he is always wrestling at. There are many ways to play this game. Just the fact that they are competing at the early age is positive. You always have to lose a few to learn how to win and most of the time one competes at the same level as their competition. Let's all remember that the goal is for every kid to compete at the high school level, not what happened when they were 6 or 8 or even 12!