I don’t know... seems like every year some ole some ole... I think somethin worth discussing is how to u keep the largest age grouping the state from fizzling out a few years later to the size of 12 and 14U... Most of the 6U kids are novice level and don’t understand true competition, state championships etc. THEY JUST WANT TO HAVE FUN!!!

MY EXPERIENCE

I coach a middle school in KCK where each year maybe one of those kids has club experience. Middle school wrestling is 7th and 8th grade and many of these kids think wrestling is in a ring with ropes... boy don’t they get disappointed.

The middle school I work at has (75) 8th graders and (110) 7th grader. (Very small school to be in a city) We have a total of 47 wrestlers. Now I would like to think that in a "dying sport" that encouraging this high percent of kids is impossible BUT its NOT.

Although we haven’t lost a dual in 3.5 years I don’t put any focus on winning. These kids don’t even understand basic strategy of being on the mat let alone how to win. Yet these kids LOVE to wrestle, the most popular sport in the school BY FAR. Because they know when they come to practice they are gonna have fun, learn, and be part of something special... and if u ever been to one of my practices... fun wins out.

The principle at this school used to hate the sport… mostly because she didn’t have a good understanding of it... However it has grown to be one of her favorite. The wrestlers get special assemblies and the entire attitude of the sport of wrestling in the school has changed. We have even been able to have wrestling in P.E. class for the last 3 years.

Making the kids feel good as if they are part of something special is very important.

REWIND

Seven year ago I was 18 and it was my first year of coaching at the middle school. I wanted to win sooo bad that I ran those kids into the ground we were 7-1 in duals that year... But to kids winning wasn’t that important as I only has one kid return the next year. We lost all our duals that second year. But I suffered and learned my lesion.

The BIGGER PICTURE (HYPOTHESIS)

Teaching kids how to wrestle and not necessary to win, decreases the burn out rate while increasing the number of kids who will continue to wrestle.

THE PAY OFF

The high school I coach at is known as the "BASKETBALL" school. This is my 4th year there and the first few years we would start off with only 10-12 kids and end up with 4-5 kids at regionals.

Last year he started with 30 kids and ended with 12.

This year we are expected to not only have a full line up but to also have a full JV and some. 54 kids signed up... the largest sign up in my own personal memory (12 years)


ALMOST DONE... The ULTIMATE EXAMPLE

When I first started my wrestling club I was fortunate that people was willing to follow the lead of an 18 year old. Now at the ripe old age of 24 I have be able to follow a few kids through their journey from kids club, through middle school, and into high school.

There is a kid who I currently coach who I coached for all 7 years I have coached... since day one he might have missed 5 practices total in 7 years... This kid started off as a short round pudgy kid. Taking third in a kids tourney was a major accomplishment. No matter how many time this short fat kid lost his desire to win never declined. The coaches in our kids club didn’t a job of motivating kids with out pushing them off the cliff. 7 years later this kid is a junior in high school. On pace to break EVERY high school record and regardless of if he wins a state championship or not there will never be a kid I am more proud of.

THE EXIT STRAGY

Unlike Bush I can provide a plan for a way out... Sometimes as coaches we focus on the kids who win NOW... MAYBE because when a lot of coaches first start… they begin as club coaches and just like high school coaches they want to win bad… I know I did… I guess how that I coach high school I have a better understand that bein a great wrestling for MOST KIDS isn’t a sprint but a marathon. We drag our kids to tournaments all across the nation to prove who is best. Now we thirst to know who’s the best 6U in the state.. I caution u on this move… I'd much rather see this passionate energy used to see how can we KEEP more kids in wrestling. I wrestled at Schlagle in the late 90's and being a state qualifier(high school) was a major accomplishment. This past year my team laced with freshman from top to bottom...qualified the most wrestlers since I was a sophmore in high school. High school have a lot of great wrestlers, but at a lot of tournaments the level of competition isn’t nearly as strong.

We should do a better job at providing an environment where these 6U will still be around at 16U. And if a small piece of that formula means having these novice 6U kids wait a year or two... WELL in the BIG PICTURE... ISNT IT WORTH IT???

I’d much rather see a kids wall decorated with an assortment of medals over years then for him to look back and say I used to be state champion when I was 6 but basketball, soccer, football , baseball was more fun.

I can only speak from my experiences
Travius Stokes

Travius, I would agree with the goal if the presumption that keeping the kids out of the state tournament would, in the long term, keep them in wrestling BUT in our experiences that just doesn't seem to be true. Someone at the state meeting made the statement that if not having a 6U class at the tournament was so bad then how come the 6U numbers remained the largest category every year. I can't speak for other clubs but in our club it's because we continue to get a whole new crop of 6U, all the while watching those that wrestled the previous year go off to try their hand at ******ball. The kids we get back consistently are those that by luck of their size and/or abilities were able to participate in the state tournament in the 8U division. Those kids/parents are typically sold on wrestling from that point forward. I wish everyone would quit saying we don't allow 6U kids to enter the state tournament because as we all know, we do! You will never get me to say that we need to provide a better enviroment for the 6U age group BUT I will say we need to provide a better enviroment for ALL ages.

Ok I will have to bent a little and agree with u... This may especially be true for more urban areas where football and basketball tend to be THE sports to master... I dont think that keeping 6U our the state tournament series will solve these burn out problems alone... but every year 6U is voted on and voted down... FOR YEARS THIS TREND CONTINUES... so lets deal with the problems with the issues of why it keep gettin voted down... like burn out, pressure, and the few parents and coaches who live through their kids and atheletes. HONESTLY only when we can handle the prospective of a 6U championship will be be able to then be able to approve this age group into the state tournament series...

MY OPINION

We should let this topic go.. spend our energy on other things like improving the participating in freetyle etc... Someone mentioned a triple crown for KS (folkstyle, freestyle, and greco) I kinda like that anything to promote more kids to participate (the BIG PICTURE!!!)

What came about with the triple crown idea. I too like it.

The Triple Crown will happen this year. More details to come after the winter board ( Budget ) meeting. To recieve this award you must be a State Champion in all three styles.
Ned Price

This is a great thing our board did. Hopefully it will motivate more kids to wrestle Freestyle and Greco. Good job to all of those involved and thanks. It will add some excitement for a lot of wrestlers this year.

This is a good start, Kansas is going forward and not looking back

I am offically "playin the edge" on the issue of 6U state. When my club was my main team I thought 6U was great. Now that I coach High school it dont seem as important. Through my experiences most kids arent just motivated by winning. I believe most or motivated by acceptance and positive reinforcement.... Ultimately I think its time to give this topic a break 4-5 years of gettin voted down is enough...

I wanted to get some kids into freestyle and honestly I have never wrestled freestyle. I however do have a coach on the staff who knows a great deal about it. I would like us to shift more toward freestyle and greco and gettin more kids involved. Even though I never wrestled these styles myself I would like to provide kids the opportunity to take advantage of them.

If burnout is why kids drop out of wrestling and they are not encouraged by winning then why would you want to add summer wrestling and a triple crown? I'm not against either but a triple crown award would only be obtainable by the eliete wrestler and in my opion puts that much more pressure on kids to be great.
Summer wrestling means more time in a gym when alot of people are ready to be outside.
The fact is wrestling is a sport where you dominate or get dominated and even little kids know when they have been on either side of that situation. The majority of kids who stop wrestling are the ones who dont have success. Losing isnt fun and it dosent matter how many times they hear they made a good effort.
I believe the biggest reason families leave wrestling is the amount of time it takes. All day in a gym every Saturday just dosent appeal to some add a lack of success and I think those are the major factors for numbers dropping as kids get older. I dont think there is anything wrong with the sport of wrestling I think the challanges it presents just dosent appeal to the masses. Wrestling like any other individual sport leaves success to the persons competing,no teammate to get the big hit or make the big shot just that person and thier abillity and desire. Not for everyone. As a lover of the sport all we can do is encourage kids to participate and hope they have the kind of personality that loves the sport. And if they dont try not to take it personally and be thankfull for the ones who do.
Jon Murray
Parsons Wrestling club

Actually, according to USA Wrestling figures, wrestling numbers are up over recent years.

Ned,
Maybe the board should consider presenting the triple crown awards to last years wrestlers at the State tournament this year. I can't think of a better time to promote wrestling and it would great timing given the Freestle/Greco season starts inside of a few weeks following the State tournament. If it's about funding maybe the board can solicit the funds they need, maybe between some of us that would like to see the bar go up in Kansas could help out.

TRAVIUS wycowrestling.com, which High scholl are you at currently?

I coach at Schlagle High School and Coronado Middle... you will see me on Dec 5th

I personally feel that kids get burned out with sports (no matter what sport it is) when the sport becomes a year-around thing. I have seen many kids who after doing the same sport year-after-year, time-after-time are ready to move on. If you listen to the reports on ESPN or in the sports magazines, you will find that by focusing on just one sport at an early age is actually detrimental to the player in the long run. My kids will always play the sport that is in season and I encourage others to do the same. The only time they really need to commit to just one sport is after high school (if they are lucky enough to play at the college level). If they feel in high school that they want to focus more intensely on one sport-that's okay too.
Your childhood is one that you should try as many new experiences as you can so you can LEARN at each opportunity. I personally feel that the all kids need to try many different sports and you can't do that if you are wrestling year-round. I love wrestling but after April, I am ready to spend a Saturday at home or be outdoors-not in a gym all day.
I also must speak for those wrestlers who are not at the elite level. How do we keep encouraging them to keep wrestling? How do we prevent them from quitting the sport once they are in high school?

AMEN... But I dont agree, I think burn out is the result of coaching and parents. As a coach you have to know what buttons to push on what kids. I have coaches in my own club who there their is one way to do things. I just challenge coach to find out what each kids needs most. Some kids are there because they want to wrestle, want to win, want to win a state championship, want to just get out the house, want to be apart of something, some kids are only their just because their parents brought them. A good coach can adapt to the motivation of each kid to allow the kids to fall in love with the sport.

I dont think the legnth of the tournaments burn out kids, I think wrestling from November to March burn out kids, I coach wrestling from October till April... I get burned out!!!

(My kids program focus primarly on 10 years old and up, and we dont begin going to tournament till Jan.)

I just dont think burn out is the main reason, but one of many reasons. However, if we as coaches and parents can develop a love and passion for the kid in out youth, they will respect the sport and continue to wrestle win or lose.

My thoughts exactly.

I agree with what you said. I like the idea of 10 and over. I have always wondered if there is something to be said about waiting until a kid is older before really pushing all of the tournaments. I know that in the town where we are from originally, they do not let a kid wrestle in more than 2 tournaments their first year. The second year, they can wrestle in 3. The fourth, they can wrestle in any tournament they want. The dropout rate for wrestlers at their school is very low so there may be something there. Of course, I am speaking as kinda a hypocrite as my oldest son has been wrestling since the age of 6 and my two youngest both started at the age of 5. However, we only let them go to 3 very small tournaments their first year and only 4 their second.

My kids LOVE goin to tournaments, I think half the time wrestling is a bonus for them. They spend alot of time meeting new friends, interacting, trading cards etc...

I have always thought the notion of split session was a joke (my personal opinion) I think split sessions is a way to keep the adults happy.

I honestly believe their is more to be learned in wrestling then WINNING or doing moves. Wrestling is a sport that exposes a persons weaknesses. It tell that person what they need to work on not only to be a great wrestler but a great person. Are u a hard worker, do u give up, a poor sport, weakminded, over-confident, do u fail to prepare... You can learn alot about yourself from wrestling.

I have had success with starting kids at age 10... 3-4th grade. At that age they can better understand that hard work pays off (delayed gratification).

If you start your kids at age 6 then u have to slow down the pace (marathon), if you start at 10 then u can pick it up a little (slow jog), if you start at age 14 then you can pick up the pace (run), but at 16.. you better be sprinting.

I dont claim to have all the answers, but I feel these issues are more important to discuss... how do we keep our kids loving the sport.

Travius, I just did not find this statement you made about split sessions to be accurate. My son just last year completed 8 years of USAW-KS Kids wrestling and he definitely loved split tournaments. Whenever I took him to a split tournament, he would be very happy on the way home and would actually comment on how much fun the tournament was. He really loved the fast pace of the action. He did not like having to wait excessive amounts of time between matches. He absolutely loved the shorter waits between matches. He also liked having more of his day available to him to spend with his other friends from his school. I heard of this type of reaction to split tournaments from other young wrestlers too. I think we would be wrong to think that all kids love staying hours in crowded gyms to wrestle two to five matches. Maybe some kids do but definitely not all of them and I would bet the majority do not prefer it. Four to five hours in a crowded gym is more than enough time for elementary schools and middle school kids for an athletic competition.

Travius, your statement about splits just being for keeping the adults happy concerns me too. What is wrong with keeping the parents happy? Your final statement is a question of how do we keep the kids loving our sport. This makes me believe that you want to see wrestling grow in participation. Nigel Isom, another young man very dedicated to the sport like yourself, has debated with me on this forum over split tournaments and he has said he does not really care if the sport grows in numbers. I believe Nigel wants wrestling to stay the same for wrestlers and wrestling community that is so dedicated to the sport that they prefer to spend all of their day at tournaments. I think you on the other hand want the sport to grow in participation numbers. One way to do that is for their parents to keep their kids involved in the sport. Many parents who introduce their children to wrestling are new to the sport like my family was 8 years ago. They are used to coming from sports where the athletic competition is done in a hour to two hours with driving times of less than an hour total. You lose a lot of these parents and consequently the kids to wrestling in their first year or two of competition. I really believe that the length of the tournament day can contribute to losing families in the first two years of participation.


My family has come to love this sport. The last two weeks, I have attended the KU Wrestling Club's first dual of the year against Colorado and NW Mo and just a couple of nights ago my son and I were at the MU-Stanford dual home opener for MU. I really enjoyed both events. Eight years ago I would not have attended either event. I have developed an appreciation for the sport that allows me to want to stay longer at wrestling meets but it did developed over many years. If my son had not liked wrestling so much in his early years and experienced early success, it would have been very tempting to leave the sport in those first couple of years. I want to see wrestling grow in numbers and overall fan participation. I would like to see a high school and college wrestling ticket become the hardest ticket to get in town. This is a great sport for young people. I believe it is the best character building sport around. I agree with you Travius that we should talk about these issues. I just disagree with you on this notion that kids do not prefer split tournaments and that somehow we should not be concerned about keeping parents happy. I think we definitely need to if we want to see wrestling grow in popularity with the general sports public.

I feel like i need to add my $.02 in this discussion about split vs non-split tournaments. I tend to agree with both sides of the issue. In saying this it is important to note that USAW-Kansas has recently adopted the language and/or qualifications for Novice wrestlers. This was told to me by our club leadership and I have not seen anything in writing to confirm nor deny the following statement: "Novice wrestlers are those 1st and 2nd year wrestlers who have NOT placed in any OPEN tournaments except by default (4 man round robin) nor have taken 1st more than twice in any novice tournament." Like I said this is only from what I heard our club leadership say was adopted by the state. If anyone can clear this statement up for me it would be greatly appreciated.

Anyway back to my point. Open tournaments throughout the year are designed for those wrestlers who are more experienced and talented wrestlers. Therefore, a split tournament may or may not be a good idea for open tournaments. The wrestlers in Open competition expect a certain level of competition at these tournaments and for those who love the sport it is a great venue to not only watch your own kids compete but also to watch the competition in other weights and age divisions. In the early stages of a developing wrestler, a split format is much better for both the wrestler and his/her parents (i.e. Novice wrestlers) This allows them to compete but also have time for themselves on the weekend which keeps it fun for both the kids and the new parents to the sport.

Being a 2nd year wrestling dad, I can speak from experience and this in no way means that others would not have differing opinions. Last year we started out my youngest son in the Oklahoma season and went to 3 Open tournaments in Oklahoma. Having never wrestled except for in the practice room it was like throwing my son to the lions. But his desire for competition was strong and we allowed him to decide if and when he wanted to go to tournaments. He lost every match in Oklahoma but he was determined to get better every week, and when he hit the Kansas season he did just that. Those first 3 tournaments were murder on me sitting in a hot gym for hours on end, but we as parents could see the friendships that our son was making and we also started bonding with the kids not only in our club, but also with kids from other clubs. Had my wife and myself not been competitive ourselves in high school and college, we probably would not have been wrestling parents very long after the first couple of tournaments.

Now to our oldest son who is also a 2nd year wrestler this year and who tagged along all last year to the youngest boy's tournaments all year. Our oldest son was strictly a novice wrestler and that is perfectly okay. He was sometimes discouraged by the sport because he saw his little brother winning while he seemed to lose all the time. In all the novice tournaments we went to last year my oldest won only one match. But it was this one win that left him wanting more. After the summer and fall football, my oldest could not wait to start wrestling again. (he will still start off in novice because he wants to have fun with it) There were many times last year at Open tournaments that the oldest son would be so bored out of his mind that we would often times find him sleeping in the bleachers away from everybody.

My point is that Split tournaments are probably best for novice tournaments to keep those new kids interested in the sport and one format that I think worked out great was how our own club ran the end of the year Novice Championships sometimes called Nebraska format where each age group is designated to wrestle at certain times: 6U from 8:00-10:00 8U from 10:00-12:00 etc. This format needs a little tweaking but for the most part there werent too many complaints about the length of the tournament and wait times between matches.

I am not sure if that same format couldn't be adopted in some way for open tournaments as well providing there are enough mats for the kids to flood and get done in the alotted time. This could be a great way to not only keep the kids in the sport but also keep the parents interested in the sport as well.