Young Mr. Ryan, in his youthful exuberance, misused his nouns. While I can not be certain, I believe the intended noun was "idiocy".

id·i·o·cy
n
1. an offensive term for extreme lack of intelligence or foresight
2. an offensive term for an extremely unintelligent or thoughtless act
3. an offensive term in a now disused classification system for mental disability (dated)

Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005. © 1993-2005 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Kindly explain how an individual exceeds their state's population rankings?

I believe you are the only individual to mention California or New York on this thread.

Yes, I am familiar with the number of qualifying tournaments for the states which you mention. There is no question, based on population alone, regardless of the number of state classifications, it is more difficult to win a state championship in the two states you mention. It is also more difficult to win a state championship in IL, MI, PA, etc.

Population (2004)
United States: 293,655,404

California: 35,893,799
(ranks 1st out of 50 states)

New York State: 19,190,115
(ranks 3rd out of 50 states)

Kansas: 2,735,502
(ranks 33rd out of 50 states)
Source: U.S. Bureau of the Census

Shawn Bunch, Leavenworth High School, currently wrestling at Edinboro, 2nd place finisher at 2005 NCAA Division I National Championships.

Joe Johnton, Shawnee Mission East High School, currently wrestling at Iowa, 2nd place finisher at 2005 NCAA Division I National Championships.

Scott Coleman, Manhattan High School, wrestled for Iowa State, 7th place finisher at 2005 NCAA Division I National Championships.

Other qualifiers to the NCAA Tournament from Kansas were Justin Dyer, Jacob Klein,Jake Kriegbaum, and Matt Murray.

gutwrench1

I disagree with your contention that KSHSAA waters down the athletics in the great state of Kansas by offering more classifications and more state championships. Rather, I think they afford more opportunities so as to encourage participation and prevent the elimination of non-competitive programs. I do, however, appreciate you offering everyone information on how tough it is to be a state champion in CA and NY.

I am not sure how NY and CA handle their other sports? Do they have one basketball, one football and one track champion or is this just something that they do for wrestling? KSHSAA has not been welcome to the idea of a grand state or grand state dual tournament and are not open to the idea of extending the season as would probably be needed to host a sectional, district, regional and state tournament.

True, "steel sharpens steel," but the goal of KSHSAA is not to produce these elite athletes that are produced in NY and CA by only having one classification. I think there is much satisfaction in knowing that as a school of 100 students, I will be competing against schools in a similair range and have a realistic opportunity to be successful. With our small population, we can not afford to have programs eliminated because they would not be able to compete year in and year out with the larger classes. We want to find ways to have more programs and more opportunities and having multiple classes allows this to happen. There have been many elite wrestlers from Kansas come out of this system and have gone on to represent Kansas very well.

I am not sure where the comparison between the KS state tournament and the CA and NY tournaments was made. I think people were talking about KS elite wrestlers vs. CA and NY elite wrestlers and how they do on the national level.

Mr. Salyer,

I commend you on your strange ability to read into the intentions of posters on this forum. If was as perceptive as you I might surmise that you are suggesting the word idiocy rather than idiocracy is more appropriate.

Mr. Salyer, if you are going to address me would you mind sticking to debunking or even supporting my arguements rather than getting personal? And, while I'm asking you to tidy things up might I also ask you to encourage your young comrade to do the same? Thank you, Mr. Salyer

Mr. Dewitt,
Thanks but you're sounding more like a liberal Californian than a Kansan here. Do you mean that the CIF (California's KSHAA) doesn't care about wrestling and other sports in all of the many small and rural towns in California because they have one champion per weight class? Are you saying that California, the most liberal state next to New York, is less sensitive to opportunity than Kansas? You say that when it's easier to be a state champ or placer or qualifier, it keeps kids participating and that's the goal. I don't accept the premise. I don't think kids in states with less classifications and fewer state champions quit wrestling because the goal is too high. Relatively speaking Kansas's 4 classifications waters down the relative value of being a Kansas state champion. Knowing Kansas kids I think they'd rather have 15 state champs than 60. They're not afraid of making it more difficult and meaningful.

Well, so much for not getting personal. Good to see old gutstench back for another season of bulletin board abuse. As usual he/she picks a fight upon entering our sanctuary. One question, why not hang on the NY or CA boards if they are so sacred to you? When Nigel shows up we'll have the whole gang back for the season.

Shucks, in my previous post, I thought I asked several questions, while recognizing the obvious.

Also, the association which you refer is the Kansas State High School Activities Association (KSHSAA), not KSHAA.

I am flattered. I have never been called a liberal in my life. Maybe that University of Kansas education is finally starting to rub off on me. I think you assume too much from my response. I have never said that the CIF doesn't care about wrestling nor that they are less sensitive to the opportunities of wrestling. I can not speak as to what the goals of the CIF are, but I am glad that they are satisfied with their treatment of wrestling. Is there a reason why they do not do this for all sports?

All the state of Kansas and KSHSAA would have to do is extend the season one more week, have a Grand State tournament and then annoint one state champion per year. Even if that were the case, I am quite certain that NY and CA would still proclaim how difficult their tournament is because of the sheer number of participants that compete each year and what it would take to go through that many people.

You've made your point that it is more difficult to be a state champion in CA or NY and I don't think anyone is here to argue that statement. Most people were already aware of that. I would not expect you accept my premise. I don't think kids in states with less classifications and fewer state champions quit wrestling because the goal is too high either. Nobody believes that, at least not for wrestlers. My concern was for the elimination of programs because of their inability to compete with larger schools.

Relatively speaking Kansas's 4 classifications waters down the relative value of being a Kansas state champion. Relative to what? California or New York? or just being a state champion in general? Due to sheer numbers, Kansas will always be relative to either state based on population alone. That is why I believe people are stating on this post that Kansas does well at a national level versus more populous states that have a much larger pool to pull their "studs" from.

If you are saying that being a state champion in Kansas is watered down because there are four classifications, then you are certainly entitled to your opinion and I won't attempt to change it.

As per this post. I do believe that 5A will be very diffucult this year with the addition of STA and Emporia.

Gutwrench,
Good to have you back on the forum to shake things up. I coached in the CIF for several years, many times against national powers Poway and Calvary Christian. Having experienced their system first hand, i still would put up many of the Kansas kids i have been around as equal competitors.
I don't think KSHSAA waters down anything with the current classification system. Kids are kids, coaching is coaching, it is all relative. Sectional champions in CA are very much treated like state champs here, your exceptional kids go to the masters tournament for a true state championship, but you have the same controversy there with some geographical areas and sections being a bit easier than others.
I think if you look at our national level teams over the next couple of years, you will see how successful kansas kids can be.

I hope you enjoy the upcoming season,i assume you are not coaching this year?

Here's your great CA wrestlers against a few KS wrestlers:

Josh Baldridge, KS dec.Dustin Rocha, CA; 7-2
Consolation Pigtails

Curtis Chenoweth, KS Maj. Dec. Kyle Dubs, CA; 13-1
Championship Third Round

Michael Sprigg, KS WBF over Jared Schwanz, CA; Fall: 3:45
Championship Third Round

Curtis was never a Kansas High School State Champion, a runner-up his senior year was his best finish, but he majored a CA state champ or runner-up in the god's gift to wrestling state of California. Sprigg pinned one of them. You're right Kansas has nothing to prove....

Alex

Gutwrench, as you can see by looking at Bronco Wrestler's spelling of my name, and by looking to the left of the screen where my name is posted, or at my signature for all that matters, my name is Curtis Chenoweth, and there is clearly and e there, and not an i. I am glad that your back to bash Kansas wrestling, but please, spell names right when you try to make a point. And I did not beat a California state champion, but he was a state placer.

sprtsfan,
Always good to hear from you. As a liberal, I certainly meant no disrespect to Mr. DeWitt. I enjoy and respect the way he approaches a discussion. I've learned something from what he's taken the time to write. I can't say the same about your post.

Bronco---Darn those facts. Wrestling USA Magazine had Baldridge was ranked 5th. Rocha was 24th and finished 4th in CA this year. Chenoweth, note the spelling correction, says he didn't beat a CA state champ, but he obviously has the right to feel good about a quality win. Bronco do you have the same problem with your wrestling? Do you let emotion get in the way of methodically picking apart an opponent?

Mr Deere, you are in the best position to make a comment here on the comparison. Thanks for your insight.

Mr Salyer, none of the great KS wrestlers you mention doing well in college are from the 60 KS State Champions of 2004. I'm not debating that great individuals rise to the top regardless of how little the system helps them accomplish their goals.

Among the 17 states with less population than Kansas are there any with as many classes as 4? So could we say that relatively speaking their are a states with less meaningful state wrestling tournaments?

Folks, who wouldn't want to go see a Kansas state tournament if all the best kids went against one another? Rather, you're talking about how tough STA and Emporia are making 5A. That's weak. Sorry the BTK caught during the 2005 state tournament about 4 blks from the Wichita Coliseum was the only interesting thing to come out of your 2005 tournament.

So the proof of your argument is that none of our redshirt freshmen or sophomores has reached AA yet?

sptsfn-- I'm not talking about AAs. the CA list I provided from 2004 was a list of kids participating on elite college programs not AAs. Take Eric Lueke. He went to Colby JC and I'm sure he's glad he did but he's a top talent that had to earn it by proving himself on the JC scene for 2 years. Same for Murray. I know Kansas's State Universities are to blame. But, we might give these kids more exposure if we didn't KSHSAA didn't hide them in the charade of 4 classifications.

I stand corrected! In my haste to answer your question, I failed to recognize the qualifying statement regarding the class of 2004. The only participant at the NCAA Division I Championships from this class was Jake Kriegbaum from Abilene High School and a true freshman qualifier from Air Force Academy.


Inasmuch as there is no benefit to be derived from researching other states classification system, I will not do the research to answer this question.

What qualifies you to determine that one states championship wrestling tournament is less meaningful than another? Is an IL, OH or PA state championship tournament more meaningful than a CA state championship tourmanent?

I do not believe you will find any individual who is involved with wrestling in this state who will disagree with this statement.

The addition of Emporia and STA to the 5A classification strengthens the quality of this class while weakening the quality in 6A.

The only weak comment(s) on this thread are your statements which were off topic. As stated earlier, you are the individual to bring up CA and NY, the other posters were commenting on the 5A classification, flawed it may be, which they compete in.

To the contrary, the statement, intended or not, was denigrating the athletes. As in life, there are certain issues which are beyond ones control, and these athletes, while dealing with an imperfect system, will be endeavoring to reach an elusive goal.

The CA list you provided includes Jake Varner, who was not involved in an elite college program in 2004. Based on this error, I must ask if Jake is the only wrestler from the class of 2005 to be included with the class of 2004?

I am not sharpest crayon in the box, therefore I will not attempt to reply to this convoluted garble.

***SWISH*** with the most intelligent use of words.

If you don't intended to take anything away from the athletes that are working so hard then why do you make the following statement?

To me that statement is an insult to every Kansas State champ, placer, or wrestler who has ever competed for the "joke" (your words not mine) of becoming a state champion. What you said definitely takes something away from their accomplishments.


I think almost everyone associated with Kansas wrestling feels very fortunate that you are NOT in charge (and this has nothing to do with wanting it to be easier- but instead is an indication of our concern with the development of the entire student-athlete, not just national caliber wrestlers, which we do a pretty good job of anyway).

Just off the cuff here. What Gutwrench is essentially talking about is a grand state, or single classification state. Here is my question. How many states have that, and who are they? If not very many, it seems to me that Kansas is following suit with what most other states are doing.

Okay you knuckle heads, you get one more crack and then you're off the show. Just curious. Is it the wind off the Kansas prairie that makes it so difficult for you to understand this? The list I researched comprised 2004 California State Champs and where they are now. Not that they AA or qualified in the 2005 season just that they made it into an elite college program. The point being that CA's 15 are more recruited and recognized than our 60. I could do the same for Ohio, Ill, PA, NY, NJ, etc. Furthermore, it's the 4 classifications in Kansas that hides talent. What's so difficult about grasping that? I guess it must be the constant howling of the wind against your sod homes.