I know that this question may sound really dumb, but this is a question that a colleague of mine asked me, and I was wondering what the answer would be.
Here's the situation: This team is in a dual, and there is an open. The kid who goes out to take the forfeit forgot to tape one of his shoes, and the ref sees that as he's exiting the mat. He decide a team point will be deducted, but after discussing it with the coaches and the other ref, he decides that there will be no points taken.
After thinking about it, the penalty for that is that you give up a match point. So technically the other team's open spot should have been given a point, which would have given them a 1-0 victory because you cannot wrestle nobody.
I know this may seem really dumb, but does anybody else agree with my logic.

sounds silly to me, sort of trival if you ask me. if the kid knew he didnt have a match and was just walking out to accept the forfiet, why does it matter?

was the ref going to deduct a team point, or a match point? Now if it were a match point how do you award an opponet a point that doesnt exsist? Then you get into the senario, if thats the case then the other teams forfiet turns into a 3 point advantage, because how can you get the point back if you dont wrestle? and the forfiet actually wins the match 1-0. and 3 team points for the win.

or was the ref deducting a team point?
in which case the above senario doesnt apply...
..crazy...

He was going to deduct a team point, but since the rule is that there is a match point awarded there was no team point deducted.

But a forfiet counts like a pinfall, so the score would be 1-0, but the open spot would have been pinned, so the score doesn't matter!

Tapping your shoelaces isn't required by rule so I'd say your whole point it mute anyway.

I believe the point would be moot, not mute.

He should have been charged injury time until the shoe laces were taped. No match point should be awarded. Beens he didn't have an opponet I doubt a ref would have made him tape them.

...but you're supposed to go out like you're ready to wrestle, eventhough it's just to get your hand raised. If he walked out without a headgear, he would have been charged a team point.

Yes Nigel,
Securing your shoelaces IS required by the rules, whether that means tape or the velcro shoe lace covers that many shoes come with. It is a new rule since you have graduated, but it is still in place. Prior to this season, the penalty was for a team point to be deducted, and the head coach would be charged an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty, meaning on the next infraction they would be removed from the competition. The rule was changed to penalize the wrestler, not the coach. Since there was no match, their was no match point awarded.

PS: How are you coming on your list of 4A non state champs who regularly beat 3-2-1A state champs? I don't need a detailed list, just 5-10. I have been anxiously awaiting your response. (TOUGHEST TOURNEY topic)

coachtwink, do you presume to tell me about rules? Maybe you forgot that I am an official and its my job to know about rules. There is absolutly no rule in the rule book that says laces must be "taped". Rule 4-1-3 says "If the laces are visible, they shall be secured in an acceptable fashion" What you must understand now is the leaves the decision up to the referee as to what is "acceptable" Furthermore rule 3-1-5 states "The legality of all equipment, including mats, markings, uniforms, and special equipment, pads and taping!, shall be decided by the referee." In may cases a double-knot or tucking the laces back into themselves is perfectly acceptable. Remember my friend if it isn't worded in the rule book, you can't make it up yourself. I seen countless wrestlers this year without their laces taped and no velcro covering and you know what? It was acceptable for them to do so. Now had their laces come untied and not secured then it is at the referee's discretion to penalize that wrestler.

I saw a wrestler get penalized befor the match started at Newton for untaped shoe laces after another ref told him he didnt have to tape his shoes. It caused a little bit of a stir but not to bad. I beleive Mark Richards (probably the head offical) was called to the matt and he said yes it is a penalty. It cost the wrestler a point.

As I said before its totally up the the official as to whether or not he considers taping the shoes to be acceptable, I assure you though there is no written rule that says shoes must be taped, only secured in an acceptable fashion. Ask Rick Bowden.

Nigel:

While I was unable to attend the rules meeting this year due to a JV football coaching commitment, I was at the rule meeting 2 seasons ago that Rick Bowden outlined how this rule was to be enforced. Mr. Bowden indicated that a double knot was NOT sufficient to secure the laces and neither was pulling the socks over the shoe laces. He indicated that it would have to be some additional way of securing the laces, and was very specific on this point. Simply because some officials choose not to enforce the rules consistently as they are instructed to does not mean that there was no violation. The point of this rule is to prevent shoes from coming untied during a match and allowing wrestlers to stop the match. If you enforce this rule after they have already come untied, it is defeating the point of the rule.

Since you are an official and it is your job to know the rules can you explain to me when a double knot is acceptable and when it is not as you indicated above? Is there a special "secure" way of tying a double knot that an official such as your self is trained to recognize. If so enlighten us and save the athletic departments in the state some money that they are currently spending on tape. If not, I guess you will have to stop making up your own enforcement of the rules.

By the way, I agree whole-heartedly that if you are an official, it is your job to know the rules, AND their appropriate enforcement.

PS: How is that list coming?

Its pretty simple actually coach, if a wrestlers shoe laces become untied during a match he/she should expect to lose a point because of it. But here is some food for thought, what if they placed a small amount of tape around their laces, and they still came undone? Do you think that because they at least attempted a gesture at rule complience that they should be penalized. Well by rule a wrestler cannot be penalized for equipment that becomes illegal during the course of a match when it was originally legal.

My point to you coach is this. By rule a wrestler is not required to use TAPE to secure their laces, only to make sure they are secured in an acceptable fashion. But the way since we are on the subject of tape, since there is no such tape provision what kind of tape do you think would be acceptable? What do you think would happen if a wrestler came out on the mat with their laces bound by a single round of lets say ... scotch tape or maybe even blue masking tape you know the kind that isn't supposed to peal paint.

This whole issue borders on a simple concept that the NFHS rules commitee wanted to adress seveal years ago and that was wrestlers who purposly untied and retied their shoes during matches as a stall technique.

So I'll tell you what Coach, you find for me the exact phrase in the current NFHS rule book that says "Wrestlers are required to TAPE their shoe laces" and I will spend 5 minutes of my life making you the list which you require so desperatly, by the way as a teaser to your question I'll offer you 1 name my own Nigel Isom a 4a non state champion who regularly beat 3-2-1A and indeed every other class state champion.

By the way the current years rule book is blue and it says '2004-2005 wrestling rule book" on it, and is has a kid with the legs in running what almost looks like a half hearted attempt at a power half on his opponent., as it appears you haven't exactly read through it you might want to start there.

Nigel:

If you would take the time to read my post, I never said that a wrestler had to use TAPE specifically, but I did indicate that Mr. Bowden specifically said Double knots were NOT acceptable. Tape is one alternative as are velcro straps. I also never said that TAPE was in the rule book, but the rule as to appropriatly securing the shoe laces is to be enforced. I would say that a wrestler who placed a small amount of tape around their laces as a "gesture" to the rule had not fullfilled the rule, and it would be the officials responsibility to penalize him BEFORE THE MATCH, and BEFORE his laces had come undone. This is what the spirit of the rule intends and should be enforced in such a manner as Mr Bowden has instructed. I know the logic behind the rule and agree with it fully as I was frustrated as a wrestler and a coach by individuals stalling in that manner. If you don't believe me, why don't you take this matter up with some more seasoned officials the next time you work a tournament and let me know where they stand on the issue of a Double knot being sufficient.

As far as your type of tape semantics goes, do you think you are proving a point? It is a ridiculous scenario and I will not give it any further attention.

Furthermore, Nigel, I do not appreciate your smug, arrogant tone in your posts. I have been coaching for the last 7 years, and have been fully abreast of the rules the entire time. I feel it is my duty to understand the rules so that I can instruct my wrestlers to act in accordance with them. This is made more difficult by inconsistent enforcement of rules by some officials (such as yourself).

And as for your list: that is great that you were once a successful wrestler, but that hardly constitutes a group of 4A nonchamps who routinely beat 3-2-1A state champs. If that is all you have to offer, I would abstain from making such sweeping remarks as I am certain there are 3-2-1A non champs who have at some point in time beaten a 4A champ. You gave the impression from your previous post that this was a common occurance, but apparently it is not.

I work with "Seasoned" officials all the time guy. I've worked with the likes of a Jim Belch, Mark Anderson (one of the most highly respected officials in the state),Richard Brake, Ruben Montoy, the list goes on and on. And I have NEVER seen them tell someone that had to tape their laces and more than that I have never seen them penalize someone for not taping thier laces, so I guess in your mind these are terrible officials too? These are guys that have been officiating more than two times the number of years that you have been coaching.

My "smugness" as you refered to it is only the logical conclusion to your presumptive nature of telling me how rules work to which I can assure you I am quite well versed in. The very nature of this whole situation regarding inconsistancy has very little to do with me, and much more to do with coaches who for some odd reason have a very different opinion about rules, when in fact your opinion about a rule means absolutly zero because you are not the one out there enforcing them, and because you read something into a written rule that is not there. This whole sequence of posts was the result of you telling me something that I already knew and twisting what I said into something it was not. Simply put I said TAPING the shoe laces is not required. You even quoted it yourself in a later post. When I said TAPING I actually meant wraping tape around the laces, now I don't know where exactly you got a different version of that front but that is your own issue and not mine. This thread was a question posed and I answered it to the letter of the rule. But since you must have misinterpreted what I said let me clarify for the last time.

If the wrestler in question (in reference the the wrestler who apparently did not have his show laces tied) Did not in fact have his laces secured in an acceptable fashion technically he should have noticed it when the kid walked out to the mat, even though the kid did not have a match, that cannot be assumed and therefore he should have been given a technical violation but since he had no match the only logical result would have been to either ignore the violation or score the match as 0-1 and then a score a forfeit for the opposing team and so the wrestler gets his 6 points. At no team point have been taken awarded because the rule change this year switched from charging "not reporting to the mat properly attired" from unsportsmanlike conduct on a coach or contestent to a technical violation. As anyone familar with the rules should know, you cannot have a technical violation AFTER a match has ended, anything that once involved a technical violation before or during the match now becomes an unsportsmanlike conduct after the match, for example a wrestler pulling their singlet down on the mat. So what I am trying to say is that because the referee did not see that the wrestlers shoes were not secured before that match there really isn't anything he could do about it proactively after the match because it was his responsibility to notice it before hand. I can't say that I neccasarily blame the guy because that is something that you really don't see that often. In the end no team points should be assesed in this situation.

Now after saying all of this the fact still remains that all I said was that shoes are not required to be "Taped" I never said they didn't have to be secured. What I did say is that in most situations a very well tied double not with the laces tucked back into each other COULD be seen as acceptably secured. Now I say this to you, if you believe that there is some sort of descrepancy as to the inconsistant nature of this rule then I urge you to contact Mr. Bowden and have him send out a state wide memo saying that all laces must be "taped" or that tieing your shoes in 4 knots is not sufficient enough to keep them from untieing.

As for the other thing like I said before I only gave my name as an example because it was quite frankly the easiest one for me to think of. Obviously there are non state champs from every class that can beat champs from other classes.
But since you asked I'll give you a couple more names. Aaron Meister from Holton, David Karnowski from Wamego (NCWA Natinal Champion I believe, beat several state chamions from 3-2-1A his junior and senior year of high school) Kyle Robinson - Abilene, Travis McBurney - Santa Fe Trail. These are all 4a non state champion kids who routinly beat state champions from all the other classes. The list goes on. But I must point out the same situation applies to non state champion kids from other classes who beat 4A state champions as well.

Thank you and if you have any other concerns please feel free to call me (number is listed in the officials directory) or catch me at a tournament and ask because my finers are getting tired of typing the same thing over and over.

It is amazing how those other "highly respected" officials are not on the forum being arrogant jerks. Must be what makes them respected. Learn from this Nigel and realize that you will never be very well respected as an official as long as you get on the forum and "talk trash" with high school kids and coaches. All the great officials I can think of are not regularly being controversial on this forum. You might be a great official who does a great job (I do not know as I have never seen you officiate), but you will have to "grow up" on the forum before you deserve or get any respect.
P.S. Do not make some pro-Abilene comeback and say I'm just bitter because they have beaten us the last few years because I like Abilene, have friends from Abilene, like and respect the Abilene kids, and like the Abilene coaches. I just worry about your maturity level as an official.

Nigel:
This too will be my last post regarding this topic, as you obvously have not read my posts and I am tired of typing the same things over as well. At no point in my posts have I indicated that a wrestler is required to TAPE his shoe laces, simply secure them, and the directive from Mr. Bowden was that a double knot was not acceptable, but athletic tape was as well as the velcro straps. It maybe that none of the officials that you mentioned have penalized wrestlers for inappropriate securing their shoe laces because they inspect the wrestlers before the tournament/dual and inform anyone who has not secured their laces to do so, before the match.

Another reason they may not have penalized anyone is that most coaches know the rule and how it is to be enforced, so they make sure their wrestlers laces are secured (taped or velcroed)making this a rare occurence. However, where we disagree is the fact that Mr. Bowden as expressly said a double knot is not secure. I do not feel that a "State Wide Memo" is necessary, since this point is covered at the rules meeting, and I have personally not seen any discrepancy in enforcement. In fact the only time I have ever heard that a double knot (or triple or quadruple knot)is acceptable is from you.

As far as your smugness is concerned, I am not aware of any reason for you to be smug. While you may be a good official (I wouldn't know since I have not seen you officiate) that does not mean that you are correct 100% of the time. No officials are (or coaches for that matter)and the best ones realize this and learn from others, and I will make sure that I ask the next official I see as to whether or not your interpretaion is correct.

I will say that I agree with you on the fact that individuals from all classes beat eachother. I thought you were saying that this happens in 4A and not the other classes.
I guess I must have misread your previous post which said:
"That was a idiotic comment for sure. There are guys that aren't even state champions in 4a that beat 3a state champions all the time. I don't think I really need to list them cause it would take all day to write them out. 3A is tough all around that much is given, but what was quoted above is simply not true "

Nigel, Mark Anderson hit me twice at the Baldwin Tournament for not having shoe laces taped. Each wrestler was charged injury time until I got them taped which took about 15 seconds. Not really a penalty but could become an issue if they used another injury timeout later in the match.

I hope your knowledge of the rules has greatly improved since the KSU intramural tournament if you are actually officiating kids instead of tired has-beens.