Smokeycabin, the comment about the trouble with parents in the corner is a legitimate issue. There is a solution though, anyone in the corner, or on the floor has to have a coach’s card. Then once that is obtained, tournament director’s enforce the code of conduct and appropriate behavior of coaches and start handing out appropriate discipline when individuals don't adhere to the code of conduct.

I too have coached all levels of kids in various sports for over 30 years now, (I coached my first 6-year-old basketball team when I was 15). I have learned, that the head coach has to take control, and often time that means taking control of the parents. I also think that sportsfan makes a very valid point, the decision to participate or not, should be left up to the parent, not all parents are bad when it comes to coaching or putting pressure on their children.

Mr. Furches,

I agree with your last post but I have yet to see the results of enforcing our intentions. The following is something I obviously did not write. But, I think it would help educate the ones we need to give something to think about.

The underlying philosophy of youth sports should rely on a developmental model of sport versus professional models of sport. It is in this view, that the body, mind and soul of youth are in a developmental process and should be attended to while coaching a child. Teams and coaches have a tremendous impact on a developing child. They hold the power to build positive self-regard, cooperation, trust, respect, integrity, strength, character and other traits of a healthy person. Youth sports need to be focused on the process of the experience versus the outcome. The internal life of a child cannot be sacrificed for “the win.” The measure of success for a child involved in youth sports should be based on their “striving” and commitment to “maximum effort.”

How to Keep Youth Sports Positive
1. Research the youth sport organization
2. Interview and meet with coaches for committing to a team or private lessons
3. Discuss season goals with child athlete, coaches and parents - make sure everyone is on the same page
4. Discuss expectations around winning.
5. Coaches, parents and athletes need to develop a philosophy around losing
6. Examine whether the coach or parents is imposing personal "fantasies" on the athlete
7. Develop a strategy for periodized training and methods of recovery

Unfortunately I don't think the code of conduct will help us here. The powers that be apparently didn't consider sportsmanship enough of a problem to be included in the document. The good news is, it all fit on one page of paper which I'm sure was the goal in the first place.
I wish people like smokeycabin had as much of a problem with people treating 8U-12U kids the same way he describes the 6U abuse.

Coach Sean, great piece. Looks like something I obtained from Coach Appleby in New York, originally from Kansas. We have found at least a couple of things we agree on and I am sure there are more.

Sportsfan, we are both in total agreement that sportsmanship needs to be included in the code of conduct as is being presented on the front page of this web site. I am speaking more though from what is expected of a coach regarding the rules and appropriate behavior.

My son is in the 8 and under and we won't ever have a six and under wrestler in our family. Our daughter doesn't have an interest in the sport. I won't live through either of them as I was not a wrestler. My interests are finding a way to help them their interests, not mine. I don't have any ulterior motives for wanting 6 and unders at the State Tournament other than seeing those little guys/gals try to win in that atmosphere.

They pay their money for a card and membership just like everyone else. Do these 6 and under kids pay anything during the year that is used for the State Tournament? I really know very little about the financial aspect of Kansas Kids Wrestling. I am sure someone can fill me in right after my post. How is the state tourney funded?

Why exclude them based on age? Some of them won't be mature enough to handle state at any age, some will be at 6, let the parents decide. Sure they will cry when they lose, a lot of them do this every weekend if they lose, this isn't just 6 and unders.

From a common sense standpoint why would any organization exclude 1654 members/participants for any reason from attempting to show the skills they have learned in front of the big crowd? I really enjoy watching the six and unders try.

I hadn't thought about it till I reviewed my post but many girls might have a better chance of winning at the six and under age now also. Don't know if this is sexist or not but many don't participate past age 10 when there seems to be a change in strength between the sexes.

Everything that is done to encourage any wrestler breeds more insight/interest about my son's sport, that only encourages more to join. We only get better as the competition gets better. Wrestling in Kansas appears hampered by the regulations from KSHAA about participation in tournaments during the athletes athletic season.(I know that is a whole other issue) Is eliminating 6 and unders at state in their own age bracket another method of hampering? I know my son would be discouraged this year if I told him he had to bump up to 10 and under to make it to state.

How would it affect the interest if we told our 16 year olds we had decided to allow 18 year olds and they would have to bump up also or wrestle in a combined 16 and 18 year old bracket?

I really don't know what will happen, I would vote for 6 and under wrestlers and 16 and under at our State in Topeka or anyplace it had to be to accomodate all of them.

I have rambled on long enough. Hope everyone has a successful end of the year. My son/family has really enjoyed learning the little we do about wrestling. Discussion only breeds new ideas.

KS has the advantage over MO in regards to allowing 6U wrestlers to move up to 8U to compete in State competition. In MO, you can't compete in State until the wrestler is 7 years old.

The question that I have is this, "What makes people think that not allowing 6U wrestlers to compete in a 6U State format is going to reduce the pressure placed upon the 6U wrestlers". Meaning that if you have a parent who is living through their child, it's not going to make a difference rather you have 6U attending State. The parent will still have the wrestler move up to 8U to compete at State, the parent will still attend National events; the parent will still train the wrestlers hard and etc. Nothing is going to change for that wrestler other than they can't compete at State unless they move up an age group.

6U wrestlers deserve the same opportunity as all the other age groups. The parents spend the same money and time as the older kids and they shouldn’t be left out because people are concerned about the pressure placed upon the 6U wrestlers. Depending on the parent’s attitude, the pressure may or may not be applied on the wrestlers.

Seems to me like the issue is on the parents. The only way to relieve this problem for 6U wrestlers is to not allowing wrestling for kids under 7 years old. Ridiculous of course.

How can anyone person say that these kids don't deserve to goto Topeka and wrestle in the state torunament at 6 years old? These kids work just as hard (IF NOT HARDER) than 8,10,12,14,and 16 do. These kids should get a far shot at the state title as anyone else does at there respective weight class. You coaches and parents that disagree are just flat wrong because if you let them as a coach you do get as much credit cause everyone knows that kid is gifted and for you parents, you just need to let them wrestle with out worry for there safty. Isn't that what the coaches and refs are for?

Mr. Furches,
You made reference to one of my responses that said the older kids would be left out if the 6u are allwed at stae. You replied that this was never mentioned, yet your earlier post you said we needed a single jr.high and high school division, wouldn,t this exclude some kids who make it now? wouldn't this put a limit on the number of older kids making it? I also said the older kids deserve to be in the big room because they earned it, you replied that this was never brought up, but you brought it up in your earlier post when you said mats could be moved in the weigh in room for the older kids. It seems you don't even know what you are saying from one post to the next. Does USA Wrestling have a 6U division at National Tournaments, I don't think so,is there a 6U freestyle division at Nationals,I don't think so. The only way 6U should be allowed if is there is room for all of the older kids we accept now. And if anyone wrestles in the weigh in room it should be the 6U,Let them earn the right to wrestle in the big room, I'm sorry but a second year novice wrestler should not bump a kid who has been working and only has a few chances left to wrestle in the big room. 6U have many more years to make it to the show, let them learn the sport, I personaly don't want to miss a kid wrestle on my team that I have been working with for 5 or more years to watch to novice 6 year olds roll around on the mat.

As a coach I dont lump all kids in the same bunch. I judge on individual ability. There are kids out there who have wrestled at state as 6 year olds why not keep them out of the tournament altogether? The main reason would be that they deserved to be there or they would'nt have made it out of subs or districts. Thats the same reason why a 7 yr makes 8& un or an 11 makes 12 & un state they earn it because they worked for it. My 6 yr was excited about state until I told him he would be wrestling 8& un. This discouraged him the exact thing we dont want to do to a kid the last I checked. There are many 6yr olds wrestling at big tournaments like the Classic, Liberty Nationals & Tulsa. Why havent they dropped this age group from the format if the big multi-state and national tournament's atmosphere is so bad for 6's? I think they deserve a chance at state. It will not affect my kids one is 6 the other 11.
Jon Murray
PWC

If a 6 year old can make it in 8U thaen he deserves to be there if he can't well better luck next year, There are a very few 6U kids who can compete for the most part they roll around and cry, we don't need this at state. How many other states have a 6U division at their tournament, i bet it's not very many, I don't think this will ever get passed anyway it gets voted down every year because the majority of coaches understand that they don't need to be there.

bubowski nice to see you put the importance of the kids you coach in order of years you've spent with them. That should make the parents of any novice you coach happy.
Jon Murray
PWC

We work with all of the kids equally, We split our practices and have the novice kids practice then the advanced kids practice. What i"m saying is a 5-6 year old kid is a novice wrestler and the state tournament is not a novice tournament,I spend many Sundays going to novice tournaments and leave my family at home so these kids have someone to coach them. But state is for the advanced kids who have been working hard for a few years learning the sport and competing at our states prmiere tournament. I tell my parents that Liberty, Wichita, Tulsa is not a place for novice wrestlers that's what Sunday novice tournamnets are for. At state an advanced kid that has been working hard is more important than a 6U novice wrestler, because it's a tournament for the states best wrestlers just as Sunday novice tournaments are for our states beginner wrestlers,You can ask any one of my parents and I'm sure they will tell you we spend a lot of time with novice kids teaching them the sport but that is not what the state tournament is for

bubowski, don't feel much like arguing the point right now but will try to present myself better. I know what I am saying from one post to the next. Seems like others do as well, maybe not. I was just trying to show that there are solutions to the so-called issues that continue to come up year after year. A Jr. High Division and a High School Division would still provide the opportunities to all kids at those ages. All I was trying to do was show that there are solutions to the "problems" or issues that many come up with.

Regarding kids that would be left out, older kids, - this is an argument that many make. I was only referring to comments that others have made here and in the past. I don't think that any kids should be left out based on age, nor should they be forced into an unfair situation based on age as we currently do by having our 6 & Under’s wrestle up. They and their families pay their dues, give them the same opportunity. By the way, remember, there already is a 6 & Under state, it is just that they are not at the same location. I say give them the same chance. Let the wrestling community as a whole celebrate their accomplishments in the same way that the under 8’s do.

Last comment here, I don't take the "Can't" attitude, I prefer to "brainstorm" and look at various options that allow for a "can" attitude. Will there be kids left out with some formulas? There may be, but have them left out due to ability, not age, especially if they are paying members. I would also like to see someone please address the other issues regarding who has the right to make these decisions. I am for having the majority of the membership make the decision, are you and others who are opposed to the 6 & Under state willing to let them have that voice? Every paying member should have a voice. I also know for a fact, because I have heard it, people say that they would never vote for a 6 & Under because they disagree with it. I guess I have a problem with that attitude because I believe in representative government. Those voting have a responsibility to vote the way the majority of those they represent desire and wish. Otherwise, we don’t have a representative form of government, we have a dictatorship and that is something I am opposed to when you have people paying dues.

I may be mistaken but I thought those tournaments did have a 6 & Under division, as did USJOC and The Cotton Bowl, Brute Classic, all of which are USA Sanctioned Tournaments. Also, I have seen some 6 & Under wrestlers that I would consider advanced in their skills and ability. Kids like Boo Dryden, Dakoda Rodd, CJ Menges, any of the 6 and Under Deshazer boys, and I could go on and on with these kids from Kansas who have wrestled 6 & Under on a National level.

It's the coaches that run the clubs, the coaches that give all of their time even when they don't have a kid wrestling, without coaches there would be no wrestling. kids join estaalished clubs and follow the rules set forth by that club therefore the clubs should vote as they see fit, they are the ones that are going to be coaching at state not parents.

As I said there are a few 6U kids that are able to compete at a high level out of the 1654 6U kids I bet you can't name 20 that can compete at a premiere tournament out of the 1654 6U at least 1600 of them are novice wrestlers. If I'm not mistaken the Deshazers placed at state at 6U, That's great for a few of the kids but a majority of them can't. When my boy was 5 he didn't wrestle at subs when he was 6 he made it to state out of the 25 6U kids on our club we have 1 that has a chance to make it, the rest are strctly novice and most of them won't go to subs until next year. I have been in wrestling for 25 years I wrestled as a 6 year old and didn't make it to state but that made me want it even more and I worked harder and made it at 7, It was more special because I really had to work for it. If a kid is 6 and is advanced great let them compete but those kids are few and far between. As for a couple of the 6 year olds you mentioned I can remember them trying to make weight doing excercises and running at the state weigh in crying with their coaches yelling at them, is this want we want for our 6 year olds. Let them have fun and learn the sport before we put them in the pressure cooker.

There is a great article on this forum called Dad-dash-coach. I was thinking about some of the comments that I had read here and was wondering, is it really for the kid or is it for the Dad-dash-coach? Or Mom-dash-coach?

I didn't say that wrestling is for the coaches the point i'm trying to get across is the way the state is set up the coaches and or the club presidents vote at the meetings. They vote as to what they think is best for the state. This is just like our government you vote for a representative to uphold your views on certain subjects. If you don't like the way your club thinks things should be run then join a different club. I have discussed this issue with our parents and they are all in agreement that most 6U don't need to wrestle at state. We have 1 6 year old that has a chance to make state and he is the only one going to subs. Parents should live by the decisions the coaches and club make.

First of all, this is Mrs. Lemon. I do not coach but my husband does. Just clarifying. What I was saying is that there are parents who take winning way too serious. I will never forget my first wrestling tournament I attended as a parent. My son was just 6 and I remember thinking that we had made a very bad decision because it disguisted me seeing parents yelling at their kids, kids crying and being dragged off of the mat by their "coach". He is now 13 but I have two other boys aged 6 and 4. Last week, my 6 year old son lost a very close match and so was a little teary eyed at the end. While I was telling him what a good job he did, the other parent was congratulating his son on "making that boy cry". My son should be having fun. He should not be worried about winning or getting a medal. I just feel that to place such pressure at such a young age can do more harm than good. There was another article last year in Sports Illustrated that talked about the decline of junior high and high school sports in this country. They found that the biggest reason was that parents were pushing their kids way too soon and way too much. In the past, most kids would not be on traveling teams or be going on 8 to 10 hours drives every weekend just for a sport. Most students did not even start playing a sport until they were in junior high. The article Dad-dash-coach also talks about this. Now, you feel that if you do not have your kid participate in sports at an early age-they will be behind their peers. It just seems so crazy that we are talking about 6 year old kids. You talk about how great it is for the kid and that the kids deserve to be at the big show. I also believe that kids deserve to be at the big show too but later-when they have matured a little bit. What damage does it do to a child to have to wait until they are 8 years old?