By no means did I take your point any other way than you intended. He is part of a super class there at Hoxie and I hope he can stay healthy and finish on a positive note. Thanks for the info Les.

LES.....MMMMMM

Just want to correct you a little. Charlie Ochs was hurt on the second day of practice. Tyler and Charlie never had a tryout match.

Regarding the comments on the lack of freestyle/Greco success by Hoxie wrestlers, I think it should be noted that Tyler Baker went 4-1 in Greco and 1-2 in freestyle at Fargo this past summer.

For those of you who are not familiar with the competition at the Junior/Cadet Nationals, those are very respectable numbers. Furthermore, I saw most of Tyler's matches, and he was highly competitive against the very best in the nation.

The fact of the matter is that Hoxie's success speaks for itself and if any team in Kansas should be nationally ranked, it must be Hoxie. I can see why some get tired of hearing about Hoxie, but don't let this cloud your mind and lead you to derespect a great wrestling program. Hoxie was the best team (all classes) in Kansas last year and the still holds that crown until one of us proves otherwise!

i believe a large part of hoxie's success is due to their water. which i will be selling bottles of at tournaments this year, if interested please contact me at dudethatwrstls@hotmail.com
the otherpart of hoxie's success is due to selective breeding

Thanks for setting me straight little kneepads.

I remembered that Charlie got hurt in the first week. But for some reason I thought I remembered him resting it, competing at the public tryouts and then re-injuring and hanging it up before the Hoxie Invite. But apparently had it wrong.

I stand corrected. Sorry I messed that one up.

Thanks.

In response to certain comments belittling the accomplishments of certain wrestlers because they didn't wrestle freestyle at all or didn't do it well--- hogwash! you can dismiss a national championship that Gilliland won in folkstyle because he didn't win Fargo, but I don't see anyone selling their Kriegbaum stock because he got beat in a freestyle match this summer. fact is, when the state tournament gets underway this February, the participants will be wrestling folkstyle. same for the NCAA. In Kansas, the Cadet system is supported by the sometimes unwilling financial aid resulting from several dollars being taken from the registration and district, regional and state kids FOLKSTYLE tournaments because there isn't enough interest to support the few wrestlers that have the whole summer to do nothing but wrestle , and the coaches that are paid to go with them after the southern plains contest. No one pays the lion's share of the folkstyle coaches that donate their time each season. say what you will about freestyle, it is a parasite of the folkstyle program in this state.

I wasn't trying to belittle or disrespect anyone's wrestling accomplishments, in fact I think that Gilliand is a great wrestler and will be a four timer. I was simply making a point that one of the main reasons Hoxie is, and will not be ranked in the nation is due to their lack of freestlye and greco national accomplishments, which is a major criteria in the ranking process. As for the national tournament that Gilliand won in folkstyle, that is a great feat, however I don't think that the competition there is anywhere near the competion level at Fargo.(was the tournament he won for 16&under?)

As for Kreigbam, I believe he still recieved All American status in Greco Roman at Fargo.

As for the freestyle being a "parasite" to the folkstyle program, you are dead wrong. Freestyle and Greco is the international sport, we are just hurting ourselves in the long run by not wrestling that way in kids, high school, and college!

I also feel that the best of the best folkstyle kids in Kansas are great Freestyle and Greco wrestlers. (Kreigbam, Eirsman, Taplin, Zousas, Grater, Cornejo)

Possibly in some venues that is true. IN KANSAS (as I posted previously), the freestyle discipline would not be able to operate at its present level without the funds that it siphons from those competitors in the folkstyle venue. without that money, their operation would be greatly hobbled or absent. That very well could be a statement explaining why there are no Kansas teams in the National top 40, If accomplishments in those styles are given strength in the rating. The traditional generation to generation legacy that makes the nw kansas area so strong is rooted in folkstyle--its what dad and grandad, and possibly great grandad did. The united states has proven from time to time that folkstyle influenced wrestlers can excel in frestyle, and the number of Iranian, Russian, and other foreign students that are given scholarships prove that freestyle wrestlers can excell at folkstyle. My point is that each style is separate, and one is no less important to its supporters than the other. As for changing to freestyle, I don't think that
will happen any sooner than we embrace the metric system of measurement, or that professional soccer replaces american football.
Folkstyle may not be what the rest of the world does, but it is an american heritage that will endure.

Mike,

I would disagree with some of the observations that you’ve made regarding the funding, support and advantages of the Junior/Cadet program in Kansas.

First, you are absolutely correct that the Junior/Cadet program relies heavily on the support provided by our state’s strong folkstyle program. However, there have been multiple votes held by the state body over the years over how this program should be funded, and the appropriate levels of funding. In every case, these votes have been overwhelmingly supportive of the current funding levels, refuting your statement that the funding is “unwilling.”

Second, you refer to the Junior/Cadet program as a “parasite.” I think the relationship is more of a symbiotic one. For the wrestlers in these age groups, most of the significant regional and national events available to them come in the freestyle and Greco Roman disciplines, not folkstyle. This is where our high school athletes have the greatest opportunity to compete against the best in the nation, both to improve aspects of their wrestling technique as well as to attract the attention of college coaches.

I am on record as stating that my favorite style of wrestling is folkstyle. Despite this, I have seen firsthand the improvement that has come to kids who have participated in the freestyle/Greco program. My goal is to make Kansas wrestling the best it can be, and a force to be reckoned with across the country. The Junior/Cadet program is an important component of reaching that goal.

Mike:
If you read my post, you will notice that I said "sometimes unwilling" participation. While the vote is overwhelming at the state board level, I can assure you that there has been consideaable speaking out against the procedure at the district meeting level, and in my recollectionin the western division meeting that was held at Scott City about 4 years ago, there was enough grass roots opposition to the funding as it existed then that ther was a motion made to look into pulling out of Ks. kids and participating the Oklahoma AAU program. There have been several state board decisions made in the past (such as moving the birth date to qualify for the age groups to October from Jan.)
that were likely unanamous at the board level but certainly not at the rank and file level. No decision that is made in a group that big is ever going to be popular, but lets not fool ourselves-- if every folkstyle participant (parent) was given the option to pay the frestyle tarriff, for lack of a better word, or not, you wouldn't get nearly as much money as you do, and if a vote were taken of every member of usa wrestling Ks. instead of just the board,
I wonder if it would exist at the level that it does. I quit participating in Kids when an additional 2 dollars was added to the cost of our registration because the cadet program had mismanaged their budget the year before and they needed the funds to continue. If I recall correctly, there wasn't any popular, one-member-one vote determination of policy, It was a board decision. the fee was supposed to go back down when the emergency was rectified, but I never found out if it was or not as that was the last kids membership I ever paid for. I don't intend to beat this issue to death, because I love wrestling, and I firmly believe that every
chance should be given to every wrestler in every style, I just think that representing the funding decision to pay for one style by charging another is #1. wrong, and #2, a decision that was overwhlemingly reached by a very small number of board members, not every certified member of usa wrestling ks.

I might be mistaken but most of those teams in the top 40 are allowed to travel outside their own state and compete in some of the largest high school tournaments in the nation. Kansas rules hinder outside competition. If you don't show up you can't compete and if you can't compete, you won't show up. That simple. Kansas wrestling is in good hands.

Oh and who would disagree with Blair Academy being #1.

Mike,

Some members of USAW-Kansas find it difficult to recognize the benefits and challenges associated with the Junior/Cadet program, when their own children may be years away from this age group. I’ve known several people whose viewpoint has changed significantly as their child grew older (I hope he doesn’t mind if I mention his name, but Greg Grater – current Kids Executive Director and father of high school state champion Danny Grater – is a perfect example of this growing awareness of the benefits that come with involvement in the sport). Although I recognize that your opinion is based on knowledge and experience, this is not the case with many.

I would never argue that there are not some members of USAW-Kansas who feel that the support of the Junior/Cadet program is a waste of money. Instead, I was trying to point out that the member clubs of USAW-Kansas (over 180, at current count, which is not really a "very small number of board members") have consistently voted to support this program. As you stated, we do not have a vote by every single member, but I must believe that the club officers who cast their clubs’ votes are generally qualified to represent their members’ wishes in this matter, and will vote based on what they believe is best for their members.

Not every high school wrestler chooses to participate in the Junior/Cadet program. For those that do, I am proud that we have a state organization that is committed to helping these athletes, many of whom represent the best our state has to offer, by helping to absorb the significant financial costs that participation at this level entail.

I hate to agree with the Evil Empire, but I must admit that Jike Muby is right when he says the relationship between folkstyle and freestyle is a symbiotic one. I see freestyle is like a tapeworm that the wrestling world has injested. Sure, the tapeworm steals some of our nourishment ($$$) every once in awhile, but at the same time it keeps us slim, trim, and ready to go.

And in regards to your funding problem- do you think every American is cool with the government taking a certain amount of money to fund roads? I know people often complain about the roads in Kansas are constantly under construction (*ahem* I-70 between Hat Town and Topeka...), and are less than willing to give up parts of their paycheck. Whether you agree to funding the roads or not, you still drive on them...fixing the roads is in the best interest of the state, just as funding the freestyle program is in the best interest of the sport.

So there you have it. Freestyle=tapeworm, freestyle funding = highways. Simple.

If anyone knows how much freestyle helps, I will speak out. 15-17 record sophomore year, non-qualifier to 26-12 6A placer junior year. I personally attribute that turnaround to freestyle and Greco. Probably the two most important things I learned from FS/GR that I use in folkstyle were positioning and toughness. No one that has ever been involved in FS/GR can deny that a huge reason, probably number one, they participate is to get better at folkstyle. Look at the stats: the best FS/GR wrestlers are usually the best folk wrestlers. Examples are Mocco from Iowa/Blair, Kish from Minnesota/Michigan, the Schlatters from Ohio and here in Kansas the ones mentioned above (cardfan's previous post). To say that FS/GR has no bearing on folkstyle is ludicrous. Point number 2: where is most college recruiting done??? FARGO. Scouts are there by the 100's; how many do you see at the high school state tourneys? Answer-not many. Final point; how else, besides FS/GR, does one compare HS teams/individuals. Check the individual rankings, then check the results from Fargo; there's a very high correlation there.

By the way, Prant, wonderful analogy.

This doesn't really have to do with what we're talking about, but I saw a guy wearing a "Blair Academy Wrestling" jacket the other day, and he was shaped like a square.

Prant:
Your analogy is a good one. I would like to clarify it further, if I may. The taxes you pay for Highways are justified because you use the highways. No one like to pay for them, but if they were all closed until we paid our share, we would ante up as soon as we needed to go somewhere. No argument that freestyle improves the wrestler that applies himself, and no doubt many scholarships are decided at freestyle tournaments. My point is that those who use the freestyle program should pay for it. Compare it to the Turnpike system. you want to go to Topeka from Wichita, its $3.25. If you are content to go to Emporia, its $2.00 . If you decide to stay home, its free. But you pay for your trip.
If you want to go to Fargo, maybe its 400.00
(don't know, just seemed like that is as much as
ANYONE could be forced to pay to go to North Dakota) but no one that chooses to stay home should have to pay for it. So I have no problem with the freestyle/Greco program, just make it like the turnpike.

I would like to respond to the individual who does not agree with the money being spent towards the Cadet/Junior program. At one time, I also felt the same way.

What Mike Juby said earlier about a perfect example (Danny Grater, our son) is true. When Danny was a beginner at the Kids level, it was hard to understand why they needed this money. However, our minds changed as we seen our son grow and develop into a better wrestler, not only at the kids level, but also at the high school and national level. As a freshman, he was able to compete with upperclassman and placed 6th at the HS State Tournament and last year, was a State Champion as a sophomore. He has also been an All-American at both levels, as well as a National GR Cadet Champion. He did not get that way by just doing folkstyle!! He achieved these honors by wrestling in the summer program and competing with best at Regional / National tournaments like Fargo! It is not only our son who has benefited, but any wrestler who has participated in the program. The money that is spent by our Kansas Cadets & Juniors Division is minimual compared to what some state programs spend (I've been to Fargo and have asked other pairers what it cost their sons to attend).

From what I read earlier, you stated that money is being collected from sub-district, district, and state tournaments at the kids level to help fund these program. That additional fee WAS DONE AWAY WITH several years ago and the Cadet/ Junior program is funded at the corporate level. Even if the Kids Level was still helping fund the Cadets/Jrs., where better to spend an additional $5-$10 than on our youth!! If they are wrestling at these levels, most likely they aren't the ones getting into trouble.

Where do you think these older wrestlers came from? They came from the Kids Program and have just moved up in age. They are still very much a part of Kansas Kids Wrestling, just a little older. We need to support these wrestlers, whether they are 8 years old or 17 years old and I have boys at both those levels!!

As Brett said, where are the college coaches at - Fargo!!! The college coaches are looking for the better quality wrestlers who are willing to participate at that level, and who put in the extra time during the off season and work at trying to be better.

If you have a problem how the Junior / Cadet Programs is doing or being funded, I suggest you contact your District Director or feel free to contact Greg Grater, Kids State Director.

These programs have our full support and will for years to come. Until you have a child who participates and you actually see how they can benefit, it is hard to understand. All levels of wrestling in the State of Kansas need to be supported!!

Leanna Grater
gratergr@kansas.net

Thank you Leanna, I to wish to show my support for the summer program, I do not know of the monies that Mr. Fairleigh is talking about, but the Manhattan boys seem to do a pretty good job raising their own cash to participate. And I have spent countless dollars of my own driving them half way around the state. I have seen definite improvements in both of my boy’s ability. The summer wrestling is a good time for all these young men to get together and trade techniques that they have acquired from their school coaches and other wrestlers along the line. The comrade unbelievable it’s pretty neat that these young men can put their hometowns behind them and become “KANSAS” wrestlers.

Mark Miller
Manhattan Wrestling

well.. uh.. I guess I was wrong, freestyle is ok and we can all live together in harmony, ok?
What do you guys think about Hoxie being in the top 40?