Six and under is for learning the sport and learning how to have fun in the sport of wrestling. It is so much fun watching kids wrestle that don't know or care if they are winning or losing, why make them take on something as serious as state at such an early age. Let them have fun for a few years. I say no to 6 and under state.

crossface 2. I take your comment to be an insult. Just because people do not see the same way as you does not mean they are not a good coach and/or parent.
Secondly, this poll is not a scientific poll. The only way we can get a scientific poll is that if each wrestling club held a vote and then reported to the state the results. How many people in kids federation do not get on this talk forum? Does that mean that they are not good parents or coaches too?

We had this discussion last year I believe and the main reasons came down to time and effort, which no one really had any after the rest of the weight classes. Personally I wouldn't mind having the 6&U class at state, but its not up to me.

The 6&U discussion has been around since dirt. I am all for kids state for 6&U. The year end and year out excuse has always been matt space. (ALWAYS) I can understand some who don't want to take it that far but remember there are those who want it. Those who choose to be content with no regional or state for kids that young I say thats alright to. But lets do something to make it happen for those who want it. After all isn't one of the biggest complaints in this sport the fact that its not really growing,people are losing intrest,cost are up etc. The list goes on.
I say get as many age groups in as we can. How can you build if you don't.

It seems that in todays society we are pushing our kids harder and harder all the time. Some kids don't even have time to be kids anymore. I have always voted against 6U at state and will continue to do so. 6U kids are stil babies, I,m afraid that if we let them in there will be some who cut weight at their parents request, Some will be pushed to hard to young and burn out and stop wrestling. When I wrestled kids back in the 70's no one talked about 6U going to the state tournament, They are to young and don't need to be put under that intense pressure. As for makin it happen because some people want it, Some people wanted Kerry to be president, Some people don't want to pay taxes the list goes on and on. We have bylaws and rules in Kansas wrestling that state one club one vote, This issue gets voted down by a large margin year after year. Last year it was 70% against allowing it. I think if you talk to experienced wrestling people they will overwhelmingly be against this. These kids have many more years to mnake it to state. Give them something to look forward to,Let them have fun and LEARN the sport,LEARN how to win and lose humbly. I believe the reason the numbers are down in wrestling is because parents now a days have the win at all costa attitude, They don't allow their kids to have fun, They push them too hard' And many don't accept losing with a humble attitude. Just take a look at any tournament across the state a lot of parents act like this is life and death,. It seems to me that it is worse when the kids are young because parents don't understand the sport yet. Why push these kids and take a chance of burning them out. I would rather watch my son wrestle as a senior in High school when it meens something than as a 6 year old when they should just be having fun

didnt your kid wrestle at state at 6?

bubowski,
I do respect your opinion and also I agree 70% of the people who showed up to vote on this issue,year after year are probably less than 1% of the people affected by the vote. Now while I have no stats nor am I going to take to take the time to look them up. Like I said before a DIFFERENT system for voting on the issue is long past needed. X-mas morning or ANOTHER DAY LIKE IT!!! be it football season OR mother's day perhaps in TOPEKA I dont know. If the people state wide could vote on it and I meen the people affected by the vote without having to travle 300 miles to do it maybe the outcome would be different. I don't think 6&U should be excluded unless the 6&U wrestlers/parents want to be excluded.

It would be total chaos to conduct a vote by every card menber in kansas. The rules are there for a reason. I drive 3 hours to the state meeting every year to vote, The meeting is usually around the 1st of November not on christmas day. Salina is about the middle of the state thats why it is there. Yes my son did wrestle at state at six in 8U, He was mature for his age and made it. Kids six and under are not excluded from state if they are good enough and mature enough they can make it at 8u but 98% of them are not at this point. 98% of 6U kids are novice wrestlers. We can argue on this forum all night but the bylaws are not going to change because under the present system a majority of the clubs would have to vote for it and that will never happen. Live with the rules the way they are and let these novice kids have fun and learn the sport.

bubowski,Yes we could argue this all night.Back when I signed my 3 boys up for wrestling and paid for their USA cards,I don't remembering it being any less of a charge for the 2 that are 6U. Point is that these kids pay the same as the older kids,they should get their chance to wrestle their state at the place and time as the other kids. And as for you saying 98% of 6U are novice wrestlers and that they could'nt handle the pressure.That is nonsence!! My 6U son wrestled Brute Bowl,USJOC, and Tulsa Nationals this year,placing at all of them. These National tournaments are as tough and have just as much pressure as state does. This is my sons 3rd year and I know plenty of other 6U kids that are just like him from the state of Kansas.I think what most of us want is for the 6U kids to be given their chance.

bubowski,
Your entire post pretty much comfirms my point. I couldn't have said it any better than you. Its nice that you put your son in the upper 2% of 6&U wrestlers,it tells me you must love your son very much as do most people. I have a freind that had a son wrestle 8&U when he was six also, I don't know if he was anymore mature than any other kid that was 6 but he won state that year. Its nice of you to be a part of the 70% that DOESN'T want 6&U kids state. Ohh by the way how did your son do in the 8&U bracket. Maybe we should change 8&U to 7 and 8 only. I wish you and your 6 year old son well and personally hope it was an exciting experience for your him. After all thats what MOST parents are looking for is a great experience for their kids as well.

If you would have read the entire post I said 98% of 6U are Novice that leaves 2% that are not. If your son has wrestled at all of the big tournaments you mentioned send him to state it sounds loke he's in the 2%. 6U kids are not excluded they are just combined with 8U. The $30 USA card fee is for the insurance associated with the card it does not guarantee you the right to wrestle at a tournament. I don't believe this will ever change so live with it.

I beleive someone last year talking about putting the 6 & U's over in the side gym where weighins are held to alleviate mat space. I was sort of on the edge about this, to me if you are gonna have a kid at state they might as well be in the limelight with the rest of the kids, not shoved off into a seperate gym. As I said if I had a vote, I would vote with an ecstatic yes, and I would encourage others to do so.

We can play theese tit for tat word games all day long and its meeninngless.bubowski I read your post but I wanted to let you know my son isn't 6 he is 26 and to think rules will never change is shallow thinking. I said I have a freind who has a son that is 6 and he did indeed win state in the 8&U when he was 6. I don't have to be concerned about the rules for the sake of my son so I don't really even have to live with it, but I do care about others who are not afforded the pleasure of watching their kids grow have fun and feel the excitement of going to state and wrestle kids in their own agegroup. Thats just me. Your probably right though as long as a handfull of people are getting together during the football season and votingon issues that involve the fate of many, it will probably never change. I am equally glad for the 16 yr old age group but to tell you the truth I think there is alot more intrest in the 6&U group.

If it's so important miss a football game and go to the meeting like 80% of the clubs do. You get on here and whine and cry but are to lazy to drive to Salina on a sunday during football season to vote. Who's fault is that not mine or anyone elses on this forum but your own. A 6U kid has many more years to make it to state why the rush. The bylaws state one club one vote. That's the rules of Kansas wrestling always has been always will. Good for your friends son who won state at six. I guess it didn't matter to him if they had a six and under or not. Ehy take this oppurtunity away fronm a 16 year old who has been wrestling most of their life. Most six year olds drop out of wrestling look at the numbers. Their are less and leaa kids as they get older. Their are 192 clubs in Kansas hardly a handful if you are so concerned volunteer to attend the state meeting for your club and cast your vote or are you too busy watching football.

"Most 6 year olds drop out of wrestling and their are less and less kids as they get older." Dang maybe I need to come to that meeting just to see what is really going on. Their might be a legit reason why this is happening,after all I can watch the football game at my daughter's house since she lives in Salina. bubowski you talked me into it i'm coming.!! Ohh wait let me see what did you say 1 club 1 vote. Well hell i'm willing to come but I can't vote. How many years have you been making that 3 hr drive bubo.
You see bubo their may not be anything I can do to change the rule (but you don't know if you don't try) but my intrest in this subject isn't about me or about my 26 yr old son :-) its because I know their are families being deprived
because others have made the judgement that their 6 yr olds are immature or some vicious dad has thrown his son out on the matt for his own personal glory. Trying to grow a sport that most will say is struggling right now and now I can see why!!

most 6 year olds drop out because people like you push and push aan push until they say it's not worth it . Or maybe as kids get older they start doing what they want instead of what their parents want them to do. Most 6 year olds care less about state but it sure means a lot to the parents. Maybe you should find a club that shares your views and join it. How did your own club vote on this issue? I have went to every meeting for the last 6 years and will continue to go every year until my son is out of wrestling. again 6 year olds are not excluded from state your friends boy sure wasn't. No one is deprived of anything. No family is deprived of sending their kids to subdistricts. In Missouri they don't even let you go to subs until their 7, I don't see people crying about it on their web site. Only the dedicated true wrestlers wrestle through high school those are the kids that need to be showcased. Good attend the meeting take part in the discussion help kansas wrestling grow instead of just complaining about it.

I've had this for about 3 days ready to post and now seems like as good a time as any. One comment here that seems to be ignored. Kids in all sports start dropping out at around 16 because all sports become competitive at that age, not because they are burned out because of pressure. High School aged youth tend to have less opportunity and thus end up dropping out. Now the long post I have had for about 3 days waiting to post. By the way Mr. Church we really do need to meet we do seem to think a lot a like.

bubowski, please don't take this wrong, I am certain that on 85 out of 100 other items we might be in total agreement, a pretty good percentage.

There is a reason that some have issue with this debate and I hope you and others opposed to the 6 & Under understand. Many in favor of 6 & Under, including me, who would make a commitment to work and help, even though I don't have and never will have another 6 & Under child have a hard time understanding the approach that many are using in arguing against 6 & Under at State.

We hear about the cost of conducting a poll and why this one is not scientific. Call me dumb, I don't know, but I don't know why that is and I studied statistics in college. This is a random poll and truth is that a random phone poll as someone, maybe you mentioned, is not that expensive. Let me explain. With a database of names and numbers, the phone calls and time is not that difficult if you have agreed upon questions on the poll. If you have a polling company come in then it becomes expensive, but I bet that there is a high school or college class who could take this on, or for that matter a few volunteers who would donate their time. Most people now have long distance phone service that allows unlimited long distance phone calls. Let's have an impartial committee form the questions for the poll, I will be one of those who volunteer my time to call individuals on a random basis, and ask only the questions given that are agreed upon. I don't think I would be the only one to volunteer for that, and there are ways to phrase the questions that does not indicate partiality.

Another thing, I don't find many who are supporting the 6 & Under who disagree with many of the things that you are saying, in fact, many agree about the pressure, about how wrong it is to have parents live through their kids, etc. Many of us accept that if a parent thinks their child is not mature enough, then they shouldn't wrestle. We also agree that parents that get out of line should be disciplined by the tournaments for their actions. If this is done, then there won't be the pressure and things would improve. Unfortunately, because tournaments don’t discipline like they should, every parent gets put in the same barrel as all of the bad parents. This is not fair, especially to the parents that would agree with you on many of the valid points you bring up.

For me here is the underlying issue, and reason I have issue with the arguments. It is obvious that an unfair and possibly inappropriate disadvantage is given to 6 & Under wrestlers in their being required to wrestle up to 8 & Under for state. You talk about not creating pressure on the kids but then allow a system that increases the amount of pressure a kid feels, in my world we call that inconsistency. All these parents are asking for is the same opportunity and same right as every other parent of a wrestler. They just want the same thing for their money. Personally, I just don’t see what is so hard to understand about that.

Here is where the rub stings though; unfortunately, the position is that those opposed to the format are telling parents that are in favor of it, what is best for their children. While I and I believe most of the parents of 6 & Under believe that there has to be guidelines, the guidelines being presented to prevent a 6 & Under state are not consistent. We allow them to sign up as an 8 & Under at state, we have them wrestle in tournaments all year, every weekend at 6 & Under, we do all of these things but don't provide opportunity for them to wrestle at state during the big show at that same age. No wonder some of these parents take it so personally, someone else is telling them what is best for their kids. Most parents when put in this position, especially with the inconsistencies that exist on this issue, will take that personally. It is a reason that someone like me, who again, don't have a kid in this division understands their position.

I know I will hear about the voting at state, by the way on a Sunday which is another issue, and the by laws and all of that. Kansas has one of the best, if not the best USA organization in the country, but that is not to assume that everything is okay or perfect. I believe finding a way to give more of a voice to the membership is an admirable goal. I know from my involvement with District 2 that there was a great deal of debate and upset members regarding the 6 & Under issue and they being told that they could not bring it up again for a period of time, I think for several years. That whole issue regarding the fact that apparently it can’t even be brought up to committee has not even been discussed. I also keep hearing about how all of the clubs are opposed to the format. Yet, I have heard many from other clubs in District 3, District 1, and District 4 voice support of 6 & Under. Do they need to become more involved? Of course the answer to that is yes. Unfortunately, if I am not mistaken, if they became involved now, they couldn’t bring the issue up at a state body meeting. By the time they could, again, to my understanding, their kids will be too old to wrestle 6 & Under. Therefore, their passion is not as deep and the likelihood of them fighting for it is less. If I am mistaken on this, please someone give clarification. I know this was a large part of the discussion at one of the district 2 meetings I attended this year.

Last note here, there is again a disagreement with some as to the approach used by clubs. Some say it is all on the coaches, some say give parents control. I say let parents know which approach the club uses and what is available. That is how a free-market-society works. It is called competition. Then make sure that the parents, no matter what position the club takes, knows about the decisions being made on behalf of their children. Those types of issues and decisions are actually required for any organization having a 501(C)3 organization upon the request of the individuals in that organization. I may be mistaken to this, but don’t believe I am, but because each charter club is a part of USA Wrestling as a whole, they must also abide by federal guidelines for agencies that receive any kind of federal funding. I would assume that USA Wrestling, because of the association with the Olympic Team receives some federal funding. If that is the case, the requirement for freedom of information falls on each club that is a part of the organization so when they seek that information the clubs are required to provide it to them. Why do I mention this? Actually quite simple, it is amazing at how little information is provided by many clubs to their membership. However, if requested, those clubs are required to provide that information. I would go so far as to say, that many parents, if not in fact, most parents within the clubs, don’t always know the position and votes the club makes on issues like this. A parent with a 6 & Under child, is new to wrestling in most cases, unfortunately they don’t always know this type of issue exists. I would go so far as to say that I bet most 6 & Under parents did not even know that their kids could not wrestle in the State tournament until later in the year after the season had been going on. We blame them for their ignorance when it is our own lack of communication that hindered their knowledge.

As to my son, he did wrestle in the 6 & Under state in Oklahoma when we lived there, in a smaller arena, with less people, and with more wrestlers. Lord I am glad that he didn't end up disturbed and traumatized like so many of the kids I hear about from those that oppose 6 & Under. I'm glad he didn't burn out like all of those kids I hear about. I could go on, but all I'll say is if you ask him which state championship meant the most to him, he will tell you his first at 6 & Under. He still remembers how hard he worked for it and what it took to earn it. As a matter of fact if you ask him about any of his championships, including several national ones, he still tells about that first one at 6 & Under.

I agree that parents need to become more involved, parents need to educate their team mates who have 6 & Under wrestlers and let them know the process. If you find that you want your child to have that opportunity and you are with a club who continually votes against the program, find another club in your area who will support your position if your club is unwilling to do that. I go back to that free-market-consumer type of thing. That means consumer choice and wrestlers and parents have power to change things they don't like by changing clubs. Nothing wrong with advocating for the things you want within the guidelines. Of course, that goes for those opposed to the system too. Parents and coaches, start advocating to your parents that have 6 & Under kids, advocate for the changes you desire, if it is preventing 6 & under fine, if it is finding a club that supports the same rights for your child as older children, well that is fine to. I guess that is why some of the clubs opposed to 6 & Under though don't openly admit which club they are a part of.

most 6 year olds drop out because people like you push and push aan push until they say it's not worth it . Or maybe as kids get older they start doing what they want instead of what their parents want them to do. Most 6 year olds care less about state but it sure means a lot to the parents.


WOW..Bubowski you know a lot about 6 year olds......Thanks for the info.

Well said Mike. It sounds like we have something in common and that is we are for all the wrestlers not just part of them. Also you understand how some parents may feel especially when they are new to a club wrestle all year then start to get excited about districs and state only to find out that their child either has to wrestle up ( unfair ) or be done. My heart goes out to theese people.

Mr. bubowski,
This is my last post for you sir. My statements here aren't what I call complaints this is a talk forum where I thought everyone could express their views. As far as people like me pushing and pushing and pushing on a 6 yr old couldn't be further from the truth. Even though I have been attending wrestling as a spectator since my son was 6 he didn't start wrestling untill he was 11. I attended state meetings untill he was 16, he has wrestled in 32 states I believe, belonged to the Central Kansas Wrestling Club,wrestled cadettes and jr. cadettes. He also travled with Tony May (one of the greatest coaches in the sport) Steve Herman,and a very fine group of coaches on tour in Austria and Slavakia. I have taken kids (bus loads ) to places like Demoins Iowa ,St Louis,AAU Nationals all over, so I don't think I need YOU telling ME I need to attend a meeting instead of what you call complaining, when even though I think I have contributed all I can to this sport and will continue to do so. I'm fully aware of what takes place at the meetings.!! Also I might add since my son wrestled two years at Labette, one year at Ft. Hays , redshirted one year at Carson Newman in Jefferson City TN before wrestling two more years for them has graduated and is an assistant coach at a highschool in Wichita , he is also still giving to a sport he loves so much. In that I would like to say to you sir not meening any disrespect that you dont have a clue about push push push.