Red,

You are right about that some medication and/or supplements will turn the color of urine dark and brackish, and therefore make it look like as though the athlete is dehydrated. This is why the "dip stick" can and should be utilized if there is ANY question as to the degree of coloration or the reason for it.

Those caught cheating will be dealt with as those who are caught cheating on weigh ins are dealt with.

Some people cheat. Is that a good reason not to do the right thing?

While your 'thank you" for the efforts of the committee is appreciated the comment that ". . . I know your heart is in the right place." sounds as though I am still wet behind the ears. FYI, I am 53+ years of age, have raised four children who have turned out to be A-1 people and have been dealing with other peoples' adolescents, and pre-adolescents, their parents, 7-12 athletes and coaches for 31, and beginning 32, years.
Membership on this committee was accepted with the full awareness that there would be no "holding of hands singing kum-by-yah around the wrestling campfire." Membership was accepted primarily to make sure that we did not give up home site weigh-ins and that the NFHS descent plan was not implemented. It was apparent to me that changes were coming regardless of what we wanted and I wanted to be able to be in a position to help keep the footprint of those changes as small on our athletes, coaches and administrators as possible.

Egg,

I never intended to insult your integrity… I personally know two of your four children and you’re absolutely right they are stand up people from good upbringing’s! I am also well aware of your education background, my comment was sincere. My intent was without malice!

Mark Miller

Mark,

Thank you for the affirmation and I apologize for having read something into your comment that was not there.

Greg Mann

As a coach at Schlagle High School we participated in the pilot program last
year. Maybe one of the biggest benefits was the school getting our program a
tanita scale.

As a coach most of my athletes look for me to decide what weight class they will
wrestle at. With the help of the tanita scale that measures body mass and body
fat % and the hydration test, a lot of the decision making was taken out of my
hands.

I know I have heard of several kids quitting wrestling because of cutting weight.
For some of us older wrestlers cutting weight is like a time honored tradition. I
believe one that should be handles with much care. Our athletes look up to us
coaches and many will do whatever the coach says. I truly believe this new system
will make a lot of the 'what weight should I wrestle at next year?' out of the
coaches hands.

I am glad to hear they KSHSAA got it right by pushing certification back. I have
called and complained about it several times. Moving certification up hurt our
team very bad the last few years.

For some unfounded reason some coaches where thinking lets get it done before
Christmas so the kids can eat... If that's your only reason for moving
certification up than we should certify before thanksgiving cuz that's the biggest
meal in my family...

The biggest problem I had with the December certification date was that even if u
done everything right... (EXAMPLE) u have a 144 pound kids who wants to wrestle
130. According to the 10% rule the lowest he could go without a medical release
is 129.6 (14.4 lbs.) So u are a few pounds within the guidelines so u lose the
1.5% per week (2.16lbs) it would take 8 weeks.
Point is if we admit that weight loss is part of the sport then we should design a system where our kids can follow the guidelines without being penalized. Moving the certification back to January gives kids 3 more weeks to get down to weight in a much safer way and kids can actually follow the 1.5% weight loss per week guideline and make it to weight before certification.

Our team last season had a good size group of freshman and I was worried about
the perceptions they might have when they were told they would have to give do a
urine test. But the whole group responded well and there was not a problem with
it at all.

It is best if u do the alpha weigh in before the season starts because since the
alpha weigh in is the entire time it can be time consuming. I know it took us
about an hour to go 25 kids but we also did other paperwork that also needed to
be done like check physicals, insurance etc...

When we conducted the urine test it maybe took about 10 seconds per wrestler. Its
just a matter of comparing the urine color to the color on the chart. It is a lot
less of a hassle then doing body fat percents, water submersions, skin folds etc...

As far as educating athletes.. I think through the test they get a better
understand that just because they are drinking fluids wont mean they are PROPERLY
hydrated. I guess u can keep in mind that we do work with kids and they u can
educate them all u want. To some degree some of them will refuse to lose weight
and some of them will lose all the weight they can to be in that lower weight
class. I just believe that overall this will help guide wrestlers and coaches
into putting more thought into how am I going to get in the right weight class for
me.

Excuse any typos

A Great product to keep your wrestlers hydrated is Advocares rehydrate. My son has taken this and had no problem maintaing a hydration test. He is 6ft and wrestles 130. I would not allow him to be there if he did not pass the rehydration test at home.

This is my post I meant to use my id but my sons was opened.
A Great product to keep your wrestlers hydrated is Advocares rehydrate. My son has taken this and had no problem maintaing a hydration test. He is 6ft and wrestles 130. I would not allow him to be there if he did not pass the rehydration test at home.

i think theyre tryin to make us bigger in the smaller classes and bigger classes 285 might turn to 300 in a few years but i guess there isnt any harm in that

Egg, and others

I have some questions, comments, etc. on all of this. Egg, With you being involved in the comittee you may be able to answer help out with some of thim

First, I will say I am for the weight program. We too purchased a Tanita scale that does the hydration, mass, body fat %, etc. We were not a pilot program, but I knew it would help us determine the proper weights for our kids. We also have a team meating where I actualy educate them on nutrition, body fat, hydration, diets, etc. Basically I educate them on how to MANAGE, their weight properly. I hardly even use the term weight loss, especially with parents. I use the term "weight management". Believe it or not it helps when talking to parents, especially newly involved ones. Anyway, the reason I bring this up is because I am not against it an intedend no offense.

First, the one the I don't understand, and probably the only negative in terms of the committee, is the comment on legal protection. I agree 100% that it will help protect from legal action, but you mentioned the fact that since the national federation has pushed the rule we would be liable if we don't follow. If we don't following the third component of the recommendation in terms of rate of decent, are we still open for law suit. I don't really see how we can implent parts of it and not all of it and be protected. There is no doubt we need a policy weather it be our own or the National Federation, but I don't see how the fact the National Federation implenments the policy help protect us if we don't coform to it 100%. Regardless I don't see there being much of a legal issue as long as something is in place.

In terms of the 10% rule, I think this is something the committee really needs to look at. I a minimum body fat of 7% wy the 10% restriction. The fact that the National Federation allows a 1.5% decent, that allow for about an 18% reduction over the course of 12 week leading up to regionals from the first day of practice. I'm not saying we need the rate of decent, my guess is the 10% is because that is what was already implemented, but that shouldn't keep it from being revisitied, for some kids it could be just a touch low. on the other side, 18% is probably to high. I doubt the national federation a total percent in mind when implementing the rule. My GUESS is the 1.5% is becuase the average person can only loose about 1.5% of a fat mass in a weeks time without tapping into muscle weight, water weight, etc. So loosing 1.5% allows a person weight loss to truly be fat mass.

I think changing the certification date was a great thing! I never could understand how if the intention of a weight program was to reduce rapid weight loss then why would you have such an early certification weight. All that does is add to the problem. Having the January date is a good thing. As far it being after Christmas, no big deal. If someone is waiting till the last day, regardless of the date, till the last day, it's their own fault if they don't make it. HOWEVER, in 2008 when the full program is implemented body fat, hydration, etc. I don't see the point of a certification day at all. If so in my opinion it shouldn't be till the end of the year. The reason for that is because dehydration or rehydration can be done relatively fast. Rehydration can occur at a rat of about 2 pounds of water per hour. However, correct fat mass loss takes much more time.

Once the certification is in place, fully, what will happen to the 1/2 and 1/2 rule???? I hope they get rid of it. I don't see the poinnt in having two types of certification policy. If the intention is for a person to reduce body fat in order to make weight and maintain hydration, it will often take time. The 1/2 and 1/2 reduces the amount of time a person has to properly loose weight.


I am curious as to why we even have home site weigh-ins????? I don't really get it. I was told it was because the smaller schools longer distances to drive. I also heard it was for the bennefit of the kids so the wouldn't have to "starve" all. I don't know if any are true but both don't seem real valid. I can see a home site certification, but obviously the schools are going to the facilites for wrestling, which is the same place they are weighing in at home for..... Also, why does the KSHSAA take concern in distance and comfort for some things but not others.


Somebody made a point of the NCAA not being a good reference for weight loss. That's rediculous...... The most knowledgable people anymore are the D1 coaches as many have wrestled at the elite level and are very in tune to their nutrition habits. Especially in todays coaching world. Ten year ago maybe not, but they are now. Also to use the the point that they have had wrestlers die which makes them not a good source is rediculous. I would bet more football players die of dehydration every year, and probably have for a long long time, yet none of them are peeing in cups. Three wrestlers died in a short span back around '98 don't remember the exact date. Those are the only cases I have heard or read about in more than 10 years. Football players die every year. Besides, I thought they found legal body building suplements in them which may have contributed. Don't know that for sure though.

in defense for egg, the reference that some people witll try to cheat an beat the system which may pose some issues of unfairness to everyone else doesn't hold water. That's like saying there are people who steal stuff and don't get caught so we shouldn't make it illegal. Just because people are going to break the rules doesn't mean you shouldn't make the rules.

As far as the committee you aren't going to make everyone happy, so I wouldn't worry to much about pacifying anyone, but there is probably a lot of valuable info thay can be inputed at times. Regardless, what you guys are doing is a good thing, and it is NOT going to be as big of a hassel as people are thinking. If people are to lazy to take a little extra time to implement the program they are to lazy to be coaching. Also, it isn't like the tools needed are that expensive.

The 10% rules is that no wrestler shall lose more than 10% of his body weight without a medical release... I dont believe there is a rule stating that a wretstler cant be under 10% body fat... Correct me if I'm wrong but its been this way for a while

Travius, you are correct. The 10% refers to total weight loss; the boy fat minimum for the Nat'l Federation and as is being considered for Kansas is 7%.

Keeping the 10% rule is why we think our descent plan is (a) easier to govern than the NHSF rule and (b) more stringent than the
Nat'l Federation (10% max weight loss vs 18% for the NF).

Do they still get the 2lbs after certifacation?

There are a lot of coaches in Iowa who'd give a million dollars to use the Kansas rules.

The new Iowa rules (which are pretty much the NFHS rules) have there interesting points:

1 — The Friday before the first practice, the kids have to:
A: weigh-in to establish their starting weight,
B: get their body fat checked (calipers) to help determine their body fat and what their weight would be at seven percent body fat
C: Do a urine test, that will by comparison to a color chart, determine whether or not a kid is hydrated enough. If not, the kid must wait a minimum of 24 hours before testing again
(NOTE: COACHES CAN'T BE PRESENT FOR THE TESTING)

2 — Once the health care professional doing the body fat testing has his figures, they go to the IHSAA, which will prepare a chart for EVERY WRESTLER. This chart will list a week-by-week breakdown of what a kid can weigh between. For example, if a kid starts at 150 pounds, the first week of practice, the MOST he can cut is 1.5 percent of 150 pounds, or 2.25 pounds. That makes his second week weight 147.75, which means he can lose 2.22 pounds that week, and so forth.

3 — Now, here's a little curve ball. Let's say it's the week of the first meet and this kid that is going from 150 to 135 is down to 137 the night before the meet. But, according to his chart, he's supposed to weigh 143.35. What weight does he wrestle? 145.
No matter what his body says, the chart is official. And since Iowa does shoulder-to-shoulder weigh-ins, the charts must be available at any moment to be checked.

4 — There is no minimum weigh-in rule, but kids will get their two pounds after Jan. 12, provided they've made their certified weight. Otherwise no dice. And, if takes until weigh-ins for Sectionals to reach that weight, well, OK. That's for the roly-poly kids that come in at 34 percent body fat.

5 — If at some point in the season a kid exceeds what he is supposed to weight for that week, this his chart shifts down an line and he adds a week to the wait before he can weigh his certified weight.

It's going to be a pain in the butt. A huge pain in the butt. Coaches will have to carry this big book with each kid's chart and not matter what happens, their weight for the week is set.

Believe me, the Kansas rules may seem excessive, but it could be worse.

Could someone in the know tell me how the hydration test process works, from start to finish?
does each high school have to hire a certified health professional? that could get expensive.
I know my old high school our ad was a woman, so she can't be watching the kids pee, but someone better make sure each kid actually pees in the cup.
Cuz if I knew I wouldn't pass the test, but I knew I could get away with it, I bet I'd have Joe Hydrate **** in my cup while all the wrestlers were in the bathroom, and can the school really be held accountable for that?
Those are my concerns

Add water to the cup after you pee in it works too.

Most schools have a school nurse that — at least in Iowa — is authorized to conduct the tests. School administrators are to me in the area to help supervise. We have a PA that volunteers to conduct all of our testing for us.

My biggest problem with the rule is that I can't figure out what was so wrong with what we were doing before. In seven years in Kansas I never saw a thing wrong with the system there. And while it was more restrictive, the system the last two years in Iowa was fine. This system is just a pain and there really isn't a logical reason for it.

Oh well....

Geez, Aaron, your most recent contribution to this discussion is disappointing. For some reason I expected you to offer more, and better, than this.

Now, I don't know why you would expect that.

I know of many wrestlers at many schools that did it in college, and then cut like crazy. I myself just drank a gallon of water or close to it for most of a morning prior to the hydration testing.

I think if the hydration is accurate to many in HS won't be able to cut do to going from school to practice unless they are allowed to have water bottles in class all day.

Sportsfan02, I don't know what your problem is, but if you have a beef with me then leave your real name.

My problem is the same as Egg's. I don't know enough about the mechanics of hydration testing to know if it is even possible to cheat. But, to come on here and attempt to tell high schoolers how to do so is inexcuseable! We already have enough wrestlers and parents reading and responding to this thread in fear of the changes, we don't need to instruct them on how to cheat the test.

Mr Sweazy, as one who has appreciated your posts at times I have to agree with Sportsfan02 on this one. I wonder what good it is to encourage a kid to cheat on the rules. If you encourage them to cheat on one set of rules, why not another set of rules. There are serious concerns that administrators and others would have to say about that.

Another question here, didn't you officiate last year? I have to ask what kind of a reputation this builds for an official.

I am another that has issues with the hydration testing, I am also one that says we need to follow the rules, not encourage cheating on the rules, or the intent of what the rules are for.

The other thing, is what about the wrestler that attempts to cheat the rule, then gets caught. Will you take responsibility of what happens to them if they get caught implimenting the principle that you have promoted here.

In the past you have done positive things for wrestling. I just don't think this is one of them.