Nigel, if you are still reading in this topic you can see that Iowa Fan is an example of one of these 12 & under kids who wants bigger mats and a better state experience. I believe you made a statement in the Kansas vs. Oklahoma topic that a 1/2 mat was good enough for 12 & unders. You also said, "...No more talk about giving this group and that group a great state experiance. Ask just about any kid in any age group and they will tell you that thye enjoy their state experience regardless of how its run...". If you read Iowa Fan's post above, I guess you would have to say he is an exception to your statement. Iowa Fan wrestled at State this year in the 12 & Under age group and he seems to believe that his state experience could have been better if it had been run in a different way.

In connection with this topic, I received a private request to post a breakdown of how card fees are allocated. A summary financial report has been posted on this website. This shows how the card money is allocated to the various divisions of USAW-Kansas. In addition, each division also has its own financial activities beyond the card fees.

I hope the summary report helps you see where your card money is allocated. If you want more information, please contact your club's director. Every club was provided with a fully detailed set of financial statements at the beginning of the season.

Vince,

you may not have known.. but there is an open vote just about every year on this topic and it always gets voted down basically because no one wants to be responsible for the extra work load it would create to add the 6&U's as I have continued to proclaim if some people would step up to the plate and say "Yes I will volunteer shoudl we add this" then maybe it would have a chance but that never happens. Most of the time people will say that they are willing to help but when it comes time to do it they are the first to back out and say they have other things to do.

Nigel, I know you are probably correct about the fact that many people will back away from actually volunteering to do anything extra.

If you have read all my posts on this, you could see that I'm not advocating 6 & under being added to State. Actually I would prefer to see only 4 instead of 5 age groups at State. I advocate 7 & under (2nd graders & under), 9 & Under (3rd and 4th graders), 11 & under (5th and 6th graders) and 14 & under (7th and 8th graders with no high school wrestlers). All the wrestlers would have bigger mats, less wait between matches, and a shorter wrestling day on Saturday and Sunday. I would also advocated the kids folkstyle season to ideally end before both the high school season is over and also before most of the kids are on their Spring Break.

I would definatly be against trying to get rid of the high schoolers, I love watching the high schoolers at kids state because they get to meet up with other wrestlers from different classes that would not be possible in High school state

Richard, I have a hard time figuring you out as do many others. I think your comments are sometimes the reason for that.

Regarding some of your comments: Here goes: You want to seem to want to criticize me for my lack of volunteerism. Well, you will certainly need to get your facts straight on this one issue. Ask any number of individuals at state this year if I made that effort. I think I recall working weigh-in, helping work tables as did my wife and son and our club has a good reputation for its willingness to always help, plus I did church on the mat. By the way these things were replicated the following week for nationals. I think I even offered to help clean mats or anything else that was needed maybe you can ask someone like Coach Gibson or several others at the tournament about that. There were several times I even helped the people in the hospitality room. I would never mention these things except you seem to have a reason to question if I was willing to help. Regarding volunteering for a six and under at state, Read my writing. I DON'T HAVE A 6 AND UNDER KID BUT HERE GOES, LISTEN REAL CLOSE, I'LL BE GLAD TO HELP. By the way that tournament was on a Sunday. I personally took 4 vacation days to attend, since I pastor a church that meets on a Sunday. I'll tell you what, and I mean this, challenge me to see if my comments are true. I'll volunteer on one of your Sunday tournaments, outside of state, or 6 and under state if you agree to preach from the pulpit in my church on that same Sunday. You want to challenge me here, let's see if who is willing to come through here. I mean this in fun, but am serious.

You also make the comment about my comment about people knowing who votes which way on certain issues related to KS wrestling. As far as I am concerned, the populace of the individuals purchasing their cards should have a say in the issue. I would love information about this process from someone within the organization since I am new to this state as far as wrestling goes. Coach Juby or Richard, feel free to inform the ignorant, (me). I will continue to believe though that the officers should represent those individuals and should stand for what is right. There may have very well been discussions on this in the past, but it seems from the number of posts that there is still some interest.

You make a great comment about rights in Kansas, specifically related to driving. I will challenge that on your example though, that if a 16 year old was told they had to wait until they were 18 that would be unfair, if they had the same payment requirments. By the way, a history lesson here, not trying to be rude, but America is not a Democracy, it is a Republic. There is a difference, remember the pledge to the flag, especially the part about supporting the Republic for which it stands.

Regarding the statement of unfairness; You make mention of several exceptional wrestlers and that is a fair and appropriate statement; however, those individuals are few and far between. On any given year, you may be able to make that comment about a few wrestlers but when looking at the total placers for the total number of wrestlers I don't believe your figures hold out. Maybe someone would like to do a legitimate study of legitimate 6 and under wrestlers that place at state and see the numbers. If I am wrong, and a large percentage, say even 40% of those placing in the 8 and under are legitimate 6 and unders I will gladly apologize and admit my mistake on this issue. Frankly, I'll even be glad to do the math and stats if someone can inform me as to the ages, etc of the placers in the last few years of 8 and under. Again, I'm stepping up to your challenge.

You continue with your comments criticizing me for my comments. As stated above I helped in several tournaments this year besides the one's mentioned above. You state that I have made negative comments about Kansas wrestling. Show me where. I started a thread that actually praised Kansas wrestling and its tournaments as its wrestlers as being as good and it’s state tournament as being better. Numerous officials and officers of the state board and tournaments of KS have told via email and in person of the appreciation of those comments. Again, Mr. Slayer if you are going to throw mud at least have the decency to get your facts straight.

Your last comments regarding duel residence. Here are the facts. I have a home in Oklahoma, used part time for rental, (vacation) and ministry related retreat home, by the way of which I receive no income. I live in, and pastor a church in Wichita. My wife will be teaching school in Derby next year, right now she is a stay at home mom. Did I love Oklahoma? Yes, and I still do, as I did other states I am from including Tennessee and North Carolina if you want to use those states to also criticize me. I have many friends who wrestle, and coaches I appreciate from there and various other states. I do however live in Kansas and love it. I plan to continue living here until my son graduates from High School. I can't continue to make promises after that because I have a job that requres transition on ocassion. I actually believe that your comments of essentially “love it or leave it” are inappropriate and disrespectful. By the way, I also lived here from 1977 to 1985 when I promoted concerts attended college and worked with the homeless and needy in Wichita. Simply put Mr. Slayer, you seem to want to throw mud at someone where it will have a hard time sticking. I will continue to give back to this sport and the people of Kansas whom I love and appreciate. It was my choice to move back here, because I love it. I would hope your comments and attitude of this nature would not be applied to the military personnel who are stationed in Kansas, yet originated from another state. I will also continue to advocate for the sport and the kids in the sport and for this state. I just happen to believe it is more appropriate to find ways to make something work than it is to blast someone and make accusations that are simply, incorrect. You see, comments that propose to describe my comments as negative about this state and can not be taken back from those who read them are simply put; Wrong!

I don't know what you mean about your comment regarding supporting Martha and siding with Hootie. That being the case I can't comment. Mr, Slayer, there have been numerous times that I have posted in support of your comments and your right to make those comments even though I may not always agree with them on other threads. I would hope that your efforts are not to demean or put someone down just because they disagree with you on a particular point. I always use my name for the reason that people can feel free to contact me personally, many have, many who disagree with my views and many who agree. I appreciate that and will continue to do so.

I also don't understand your need to make the comment regarding Saddam. Are you trying to make a point that is popular to draw favor? I honestly don't know. If and please understand that I mean if, that is the case, please be reminded of my comments and prayers supporting our troops at the State and National Tournaments as well as my own families and numerous friends involvement in the war at this time. Also pick up a number of newspapers that have run articles about my church making those efforts, far more than just praying as of recent. Maybe you have heard some of the interviews I have done on various radio stations on this point. Then again, maybe not, if so you would have never made this particular comparison.

I fully understand that life is not fair. Feel free to visit my neighborhood and allow me the honor of showing you the people I work with on a daily basis who know that and I am spending my life trying to help. Maybe you can visit my web site http://www.furches.org and hear comments from athletes, governors and others that have praised my efforts. I again would enjoy trading roles on a particular Sunday so you can see legitimate people who have had little hope but have overcome those obsticles. While life may not be fair, it does not negate our responsibility to try and make it fair. Many people use the wording of "Well, am I my brother’s keeper?" Amazingly, they are quoting a Bible verse when they make that comment, unfortunately they never read Jesus response, which paraphrased, is, "You bet you are."

If a simple majority of individuals who pay their dues to USA KS were polled on this issue and did not approve I would simply agree with the inability to pull it off. That does not mean that I would agree with the decision though and would not continue the effort to work for what I believe to be fairness.


You see Mr. Slayer I am not opposed to your rights to make your comments. I might disagree but when personal attacks are made I think you have crossed the line. I just happen to perceive that anyone reading those comments would likely take them that way, especially where you tell me how far it is to drive to Oklahoma. I will at least have the decency to email you my response as well as post it on the web site.
One last question though. Do you have any kids in this group? I have stated that I do not. I have also stated that I would be willing to help at a combined state. If you do not have kids here, or even if you do, I would be curious to understand in a civil way as to the reason for the level of lack of support. I do know that if our country never readdressed issues such as slavery, women's rights, age of service for military, etc that things in America would be much different. Frankly I hope we fight like crazy to readdress public law on Title IX. Thankfully, we live in a country that allows for this type of debate.

Richard,

You made a suggestion that Mike was unwilling to volunteer for the cause that he is promoting. The insinuation here is that it is easy for Mike to complain but back it up as a volunteer first. You also brought up his dual residency in Oklahoma and Kansas. I think most people would consider that a personal comment and one that was not given in a positive light. I think most of us would taken these comments personally. You have posted that I'm just always complaining before on your comments about my posts. Are you the only person who can promote a change or comment about a situation in a negative manner and not be considered to be complaining? I guess it is your choice of words or phrasing your objections but I would say that you do have a tendency to get personal in your objections to posts from other people.

I'm not for the six and unders to be included at State like Mike is. You can see from my last post what I'm for.

Come on Guys, I'm getting an Ice Cream Headache!!!

I know exactly how you feel

While my son is now 11, I'm for a 6&u state tournament. We have attended the Tulsa Nationals since Rhett was 6 and I see no problem other than floor space.

I believe District II voted to host the tournament, but them politics became a factor.

Again, let's GO For IT!
Mike Flood

I agree that 6and under needs to be added to the state tournament. On the other hand it would have to be a 3 or 4 day tournament. Getting help for 3-4 days is hard. So my final answer would be: ENTER IN 8 AND UNDER!!!!!! My son did as a 5 year old and made it to state in his forst year. If you want to get it added then start rounding up helpers on a list and submit it to the board and see what happens.

Youth Sports
Quick Facts

Age in which children first have the capability to understand social dynamics of competitive sports: 8 years old

· Average stint in one sport : 5 years

Source: U.S. Census Bureau, National Council of Youth Sports, NCAA.org, Jay Coakley's "Sports in Society".

· Number of kids ages 5-19 in U.S.: 61,446,112
· Number of kids ages 5-18 that competes in 61 top sports organizations: 38,259,845

Source: U.S. Census Bureau, National Council of Youth Sports, NCAA.org, Jay Coakley's "Sports in Society".

Youth Age Divisions

Youth competitions typically take place in two-year age divisions. These age divisions provide young athletes the opportunity to compete with other athletes of similar ability. The age divisions for competition year 2005 are as follows:

Age Division Year of Birth
Bantam (10 & under) 1995+
Midget (11-12) 1993-1994
Youth (13-14) 1991-1992
Intermediate (15-16) 1989-1990
Young (17-18) 1987-1988


2005 Divisions
The Junior Olympics is divided into six divisions for boys and six divisions for girls. The athlete's year of birth shall determine the division in which the athlete shall compete. With each succeeding year each division shall be adjusted. Listed below are the 2005 divisions (NOTE: Sub-Bantams do not advance past the Region 2 Meet in both Track & Field and Cross Country):
Sub-Bantam: Born 1997 or after
Bantam: Born in 1995-1996
Midget: Born in 1993-1994
Youth: Born in 1991-1992
Intermediate: Born in 1989-1990
Young: Born in 1987-1988

(NOTE: Sub-Bantams do not advance past the Region 2 Meet in both Track & Field and Cross Country):

Which line item in the budgetlisted in Mike Juby's post represents the costs for Kids State in Topeka?

Won Wood

What year did your son compete as a 5 year old and at what weight?

I have read all of the arguments for and against 6 and under participating at Topeka's State Championship. Some of the comments have been extremely harsh and VERY narrowminded. I was offended at the attacks to the Wrestling Moms. My family has been involved with wrestling for many years and I've attended four straight State Championships. I have a son who will be in 16 and under next year and had one in 6 and under this year. So I can empathize with the emotions behind both age groups. I have also had experience with another equally competitive sport, Premier Soccer. In both sports, indvidual excellence is the ultimate goal( You know what I'm saying...that high school Varsity spot or College scholarship!). ALOT of time and money on the parent's part is spent and the children are prodded sometimes willingly and sometimes not along the way. Similar to wrestling, those "first in the sport" parent's assume that because their child is very good and on a great team at an early age then their son is the next Freddie Adu. But over time, other's skills improve and puberty kicks in! The playing field levels significantly at around age 12. And as SmokeyCabin has said to my own sons, when you get to this age group everyone is tough because the average wrestlers have quit. You'll still see some of those once amazing 6 year olds at age 14 competing and then there will be a whole list of others that you say, "whatever happened to?" I do know that my 7th grader drove SmokeyCabin crazy at age six running around the wrestling room and climbed on Smokey's back more that he practiced those first two years. He placed at Novice tournaments and there wasn't a 6 and under Championship back then(if there was I didn't know about it).
But you know, I know he isn't looking back lamenting over if only he had gone to State at six, how great he would have been. If we are all honest with ourselves, at age six Gameboy and Hotwheels rank higher and the honor of a State Championship is short lived and it's more important to the parents in bragging rights. I could have taken my Kindergartner this year to the 6 and Under Championship, but you know wrestling season is long enough for all of us and the other two did fine without it. By the way my seventh grader got second at State this year, it was a long 7 year trip to the Championship, but it was well worth the wait! On the other side my other son placed too and he's moving up next year to 16 and Under so it will be the last hurrah, so to speak. I know IT IS IMPORTANT to a 15 or 16 year old (compared to a six year-old or parent of one) to place at State. Those Championship memories will be much more engrained in those wrestler's minds when they look back when they are adults than of those memories from when they were five or six. I do believe that the State Championship is more VALUABLE when it is kept as a PERSONAL goal or achievement. When it is something that a wrestler strive's for, it is kept special. So now that I've honored Vince Nowak by writing a book, I will finish by saying let's keep it the way it is, it works well. It is an honor to make it to State whether you are a six year-old competing at 8 and Under or a sixteen year old for the last time and let's keep it sacred. And for those out there who want to argue that it is their six year old wrestler who wants it most of all, that's great that your child loves the sport. However, it is alot easier to keep a child competitive striving towards a goal than to have to push them along after the disappointment of losing something they've already attained. Those are some of the ones that have burned out that we look back on and say "what ever happened to so and so, remember when you thought you could never beat him?" There's always an exception, but the pattern hasn't changed in my experience with wrestling, soccer, baseball, football and the list goes on.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Amen, Amen. Read the comments on the topic "WOW...". I agree totally with everything you just said.

I'm not sure what your question is above. The state tournament is a profitable operation.

Having been to a few elections on this topic, I'll try to be brief and not too offending.

First off, as others have stated, this has been a dramatic push out of one of four districts and each time it has been brought up, as a voting body (ie the clubs) it has been voted down. It hasn't even been close. Costs, financial impact on families, wrestlers aptitude, etc., is immaterial. The brass tacks so to speak clearly illustrate that there isn't a wide spread interest.

Don't believe me? Case in point, this topic. Out of 1500+ participants, we have 26 posters. And let's just suppose for a minute that each poster was bent on getting this through. Reality check, the 26 would only amount to 2% of the eligible wrestlers. Never in the course of history has 2% been able to force anything into being.

I'm bad at research. Does anyone have the numbers of the 6 and under state tourney in Ottawa? How many attended? What percentage is that?

What bothers me about this dead horse is the fact that such a insignifant percentage is actually interested in the endeavor, ie, low percentages in posters, votes on the floor of the state body meeting, and I'm speculating here, but turnout in relation to eligible participants at Ottawa vs. the total numbers, consistently come on the message board right about the time late Jan, begin posting about how bad the Board is in not letting it fly.

What's the problem? First, as Mike pointed out, this is not the board's decision. This is an issue that has to be brought up and passed by the state body. The board only acts as the facilitator to enact what the body wants. The state body has clearly stated time and time again, through its vote, that it is not interested.

Second, if this was such a pressing issue, of vital importance to the well being and growth of the athlete, then why hasn't more been done to ensure such participation is included. Quite simply, "my kid's not six anymore." What irked us as parents with 6 year olds isn't that important to us when they are 8. That should attest greatly in to it's vital importance.

The argument of, "they deserve it," holds little water. I deserve a payraise as a teacher, I don't think our legislators are going to follow it through though.

The argument of "we're the largest group" is of little importance as well. It is the largest group, composing of 22% of the wrestlers. Not enough to overthrow much of anything. But lets take a closer look at the numbers, they slowly dwindle the older out kids get. Now this is because of a variety of issues, but I contend that most drop out because of burnout. Instead of barking about, "why not 6," we should be glad that there are voting members that realize we're losing numbers and this could be a contributing factor.

I have yet to hear of a kid quitting wrestling at 6 because of no state tourney. I have heard of kids quitting because they are burnt out.

Enough complaining about "think of the kids" or "what about the largest group" already. Could it be that most 6 year old parents are just out exposing their kids to the sport like my mom and dad did with me when I was young. They had no ambition of state champion at 6. Their ambition was to find something I was passionate about and enjoyed as a squirt and then feed that passion as I got more interested.

At six, though I was on the ball field every evening working on throws from centerfield to home with the team, I was more interested to see how much Big League Chew bubble gum I could get in my mouth.

Just some thoughts and I went longer than I wanted.

martialartswrestler, I have to thank you for resurrecting this thread from two years ago. Nigel, you can see we were locked in posting combat two years ago. I bet you could find threads from four years ago and you would find Nigel and myself going at it. It is like a broken record (on Nigel's part not mine).

KC Sportsmom, that is certainly an impressive post. I am honored that you mentioned me in it, but I must say you know I am noted for being concise and not overly verbose in my posting! By the way I am signing copies of my new book "My 428 Greatest Kansas Wrestling Forum Posts" at this Sunday's end of the season banquet. KC Sportsmom, you have earned a complimentary copy.

Good post. I actually went in my son's room last night to see what he had done with all his trophies and medals he earned playing biddy-basketball, baseball, football, etc. I found them all in a box shoved under his bed, dusty, jumbled, without any care. I asked him why they were there and he said he didn't even remember half that stuff. He does have his junior high and high school achievements displayed, but as a teenager he has retired his childhood memories.