6 year olds qualifying for state

Just curious how many 6 year olds qualified in the 8 under brackets.

Just to start a few:


Nick Ornelas 46lbs Chanute

Noah Murray 43lbs Parsons

Way to go guys! Tear 'em up at state.

Boo Dryden 40lbs. WWC Conner Penka 43lbs. Derby

Great job boys!!! Good luck this weekend.

Tate Steele 5 yrs old - 8/40 lbs. 1st place District 1
Team Tigers

Good luck Tater!

Lonnie Finney from Clearwater but I can't remember his weight.

Levi Green 8/40 3rd District 1
Siam Boyd 8/43 3rd District 1

I noticed Boo and Tate placed 1st and 2nd at 6U State. Congratulations to those boys.

Noah Endreshak 8/40 3rd District 3

Nathan Endreshak 8/43 1st District 3

are they twins? We have 2 sets of twins going from our club, congrats and good luck this weekend

Conner Penka 8/43 Derby

One of the arguments against having a 6 and under division for state is that the kids can make it at 8 under. Take a look at the weights of the kids that make it. Most of the 40# kids are probably wrestling some 6 year olds to get there. The kids with very little chance are the 52+ kids. Almost all of them will be wrestling older more developed kids. 6 and under state at Ottawa was a great event, and I am glad it is offered, but it is not a substitute for State. The young kids work their butts off all year, and it is a shame that they aren't given the same opportunity as the older kids. How many older kids wrestle for a club for 2 or 3 weeks after the Jr High program is over and then have the opportunity to make it to state? In our club it was over half the kids that made state. Why is their 3 week involvement in the club rewarded more than the 6U kids work in the club for over 4 months? It is time to add 6U to the State tourney.

I echo your sentiments. I would love to know if any of the USA card money that 6 and under kids pay is used for the state tournament.

Go kylesdad. Alot of 6 and unders do make it at the 40 and 43 lbs weight groups because how many 40 and 43 lbs 8 years old out there. I know a few but not very many. I know that 2 people that wrestled 6u 52 all year are going to state. TJ from Salina 52lbs and at 49lbs Acaia from Rice County. They are both from D3. That goes to show that there is some good competition at the 6 and under division. Good Luck to all 6 and unders that are going to state. And I agree with kyles dad it is time to add 6u to the State tourney.

Lonnie Finney went 52lbs. Good luck Finney!!!

Congarats to all the little guys

Conagher Welch 8/55 Indy

Good Luck to Noah Murray and Nick Ornelas!

Wrestle Tough Boys!

Go 6 and Under!

I can tell you that some of the best wrestlers at 6&U 49, & 52 are not going to state. and when you talk about Acacia and TJ you are talking about two of the best at their weights. Acacia also dropped from 52 to 49 in order to qualify. They should be rewared for that, not throw into a bracket with kids much more experienced and developed. There is a huge difference between 6 & 8. It is sad that so many talented 6 year old miss out on the experience of state. I think if more of those kids could experience the thrill of just the walk-in "march" it would be enough to motivate more of these kids to stay in the sport. That is an amazing site. I want my 5 year old to end the year on a positive note not going to subs and getting thrown around by a kid 3 years older then him. How discouraging is that for these kids to end the year like that?

Dylan Bloom 46lbs 1st place district 3 Wamego Jr. Raiders Good Luck @ state

For all of you that continue to wish the 16u to be eliminated from the state tournament, remember, your children will be in that category some day and hopefully their participation will be abit more welcome than what some of us are currently going through. Why does it have to be an us vs. them deal - why not come up with alternate solutions rather than bashing the "big kids". They may only participate for a few weeks, but they also provide some guidance and support for the little ones.

"They may only participate for a few weeks", but they have participated for months each year, many of them from the time they were the age of your 6 & under. It may seem like the 6 & unders are being shut out, but as intense a sport as wrestling is, the 10 years they are eligible to compete at State is plenty, they're not being ripped off by missing out at 6 & under.

For those few that are ready, they can give it a go at 8 & under, just like those few freshman that can hang on varsity wrestling against seniors. The rest pay their dues and hope to get their glory in due time. I know our high school team has excellent, hard-working wrestlers on the freshman and jv teams. They are no less valuable than our varsity wrestlers, but the kids' parallel to this is that for many reasons, including pressure, mat space, time factor and past votes, the 6 & unders do not participate in state.

Many people have been on the forum complimenting Ottawa on their 6 & under State Championships. This is great! I heard they even had a parade this year. It's a one-day tournament, which is much better suited for 4, 5 and 6 year olds. They have 10 years at the big show, let them build up a little anticipation for it.

We had a kid from newton(Austin Cross-8&U 70) who turn just turned 7 in December. He took 4th At District 3

I think you some of you miss the point we are trying to make about the 6 & u GROUP. wE ARE NOT SAYING WE NEED TO EXCLUDE THE 16 YEAR OLD GROUP hOWEVER WE ARE SAYING THAT THEY CERTAINLY NEED TO INCLUDE THE 6 YEAR OLD GROUP.

This is one thread that stayed very positive until KCWrestlersMom jumped in to gloat about her JV wrestler keeping a spot at state and to bash the little guys. Go back in your in your hole KCWrestlersMom.

Start another thread if you want to change the subject.

Congrats to Mom160 son for his 6th place finish in HS State.

When there are over 1600 6 years & Under in the state and they are not included in the state tournament, and there are 600 16 & under that are, that is a problem. I think they all need to have the opportunity to wrestle. I think it's great for everyone.

I think they should just keep state the way it is, it is the last year for the 16 year olds in kids wrestling and the 6 yr olds have years ahead of them.

averagejoe - how were my comments NOT positive? There were several comments directed towards the 16u, and my point is that we need to find a different alternative than eliminating the upper age levels. In NO way am I saying that the 6u need to be kept out of state. BTW - wrestling 14u & 16u made my son a high school state medalist, so please research before you go name calling. The only "gloating" done by me was not even for my son.

I personally dont want anyone elimanated from the tourney. My 6yr old is very excited about going to state,and being in the parade with some of his favorite older teamates, one is 14. My 6yr old has been drilling and conditioning with the big kids and looks up to them. His state experiance wouldnt be the same without their presence and support. Not to mention the support of other parents in our club. Having 6yr old state seperate takes away alot of these kids support. Just my opinion.
Anyway best of luck to all participants and to all the 6yr olds who made it and to those who tried and did'nt.
Jon Murray
Parsons Wrestling Club

Thank you average joe. this situation is not even comparable to High School. First of all if these ladies had any idea about wrestling or sports in general they would know there is a huge difference in maturity between 6 & 8 year olds. As these kids get older i.e. 8, 10, 12, 14,16 that gap becomes less and less aparent. It is not fair to exclude these kids who are more then qualified to compete at State. The only kids that aren't effected are the kids that wrestle the weights that most 7 & 8 year olds don't typically weigh. i.e. 37, 40, 43, 46. The rest of the classes have pretty much no class.

Why are you assuming that I know nothing about the sport? I am a mother AND a teacher and I do understand the difference in age groups. What I don't understand is why I have made some of you SO angry? I am not disputing having 6u at state - but I do not make the rules.

Filling the Expo with eager excited fans and wrestlers should be reason enough if there is anyway possible to include the 6 and under brackets.

You would not fill a small gym with a 15 & 16 year old tournament. It is hard to find a seat at a 6 and under event.

I bet if you really look at the 6 year olds actually wrestling week in and week out it's less than the 14 and unders which is around 1100 plus kids. I bet it's closer to 800. We had 20 6 and unders signed up this year. And 4 of them came week in and week out. All kids are different. Plus it depends where you live at in the state. In the Wichita area you can go to several tournaments without traveling that far and get more participation. In western kansas you have to travel more to get to a tournament. Which you get less participation. Kids develop at different rates and stages. My oldest son which is in 10 and under now went to state as a 6 year old his first year of wrestling. My other son who is six now started when he was 5 and he will be lucky to make it to state when he gets to be 14. I haven't coached him any different than my other son. He actually knows more moves at 6 than my oldest son did. Wrestling or even any sports activity isn't in his heart. He doesn't care about them. He just wants to participate right now and be part of something. Now my 3 year old will tear your head off. He wants to wrestle all the time. It just depends who they are. We just need to let our kids go out there and do as they please. Just guide them and coach them the best we can without burning them out. Either way if their having success or not having success. Because I almost lost my oldest son his first year. Because I went overboard. It would be nice if Ottawa would do their tournament a little earlier in the year and do it on a Saturday instead of Sunday. Because I would like to bring some kids to Ottawa instead of going to districts and traveling that far for a tournament on a Sunday and wrestling that late on a Sunday. Especially when we didn't get home from our district tournament until 8:00 p.m. that night. Then state in just a few days. I would like to keep state 8 and under thru 16 and under. Because they have many opportunities to go to state. Because as our kids get older we don't want to hear from those new parents of 6 year olds wanting our 16 year olds out because there are more 6 year olds than 16 year olds that hold a USA kids wrestling card. Just let it go. Let those 6 years come up and kick some butt. Because some will.

If anyone is in doubt that six year old are ready for a state tournament needs to go watch the Ottawa 6 & u state championships. The numbers wre huge. These little kids wrestled their butts off. The Ottawa club did a great job! And a great turnout. I saw 2 64-man brackets and 5 0r 6 32-man brackets. Some of these kids wrestled WAY too many matches in one day! It was a very long day though. We left after the 55# finals and that was around 6pm. I think it would be better if the 6 &u were added to big state tournament. Then it could be a two day event.

It appears that the problem with adding the 6 year olds is space. If the Expocenter is not big enough to hold the current ages and adding 6U, is there a site in Topeka that the 6U could be held on the same days? They could be included in the ceremonies and the finals for 6U could be added to the Expocenter. I don't see changing the weight brackets for all the other ages to add 6U. As far as 16U, these kids deserve to be able to participate at state even if it appears they have only wrestled a couple of weeks in the kids program. Anyone who has an older wrestler knows what they go thru for 3 months of highschool wrestling. I commend any wrestler who stays out and wants to continue to wrestle. We have had several very good wrestlers decide not to continue in the kids because of the pressures of highschool wrestling. Good luck to ALL participating this week at state and keep Tyler and his family in your prayers.

First of all any club, coach, or parent that allows a 6u lose weight should be baned from the sport. Very few if any kids who are forced (this is the only way a kid this young would cut weight) to do this will end up wrestling in high school. This is a intro into the sport of wrestling and should be keep that way. A state tournament for kids at this age is for the parents not the kids. The state tournament does alot of good for the sport of wrestling, but keep in mind it has little to do with how a young wrestler will do in high school and beyond. So treat it for what it is a really fun tournament with really good young wrestlers.

What happen to Bryce Bacon - Hoxie?
He placed last year 8/40 and 1st at Subs this year 8/40.

We are from oklahoma and the 6 yr olds wrestle with everyone else at state,and the tournament runs just fine. as far as 6yr olds wrestling with 8yr olds are 6 yr old 52lbs kid beat some of the best 8yr olds in oklahoma and some 10 yr olds. just because there 6 if they got the talent it doesn.t matter.

Bryce Bacon was disqualified for wearing some kind of rubber or plastic suit to lose weight at Districts in Dodge City. I don't know how much weight it was, just heard different amounts.
It's to bad because he could have placed at 43#. Instead of cutting to 40#.

Who suggested removing the 16yr olds, and who said anything about 6's cutting weight? Anyone wanting to elimanate any age group is hurting the sport. If a kid wants to participate at 6 or 16 they deserve the opportunity. Not all little guys are ready to compete but you better believe some are. My older son wasn't ready when he was 6. I know this because when we asked him if he wanted to try subs he said no. He didnt try subs until he was in his 2nd year of 8& under. We didn't even ask our 6yr old if he wanted to try subs last year. This year older teamates suggested he try and he did and was able to make state. Every kid is different and their level of desire develops at differnt rates. Our 6yr old is more agressive in his desire for learning at school than his 12 year old brother. Several people feel these young wrestlers are being pushed into trying state. I'm sure some are, but I think most parents are more responsible than that. Most coaches wouldn't suggest putting in a kid who wasn't ready. As a coach I would make an honest assessment of a child's abillity to compete and hope the parent was responsive to my suggestion. I don't believe parents put in the time and money that we do with bad intetions for their kids. Do some parents push to hard? Sure, there are some but I think most want what's best for their children. I hope sometime in the future all who are ready to compete will be able to on a level playing field until then this will always be debated. Good luck to all at state.
Jon Murray
Parsons Wrestling Club

To all of the people who posted TJ and I thank you for the support on this issue. TJ went 2-2 at state this weekend with the 8 yr olds. I'm very proud of him this year and what he has accomplished.

Way to go T.J. Keep up the hard work and next year will be yours..... by the way... I just love your blonde hair!

good job tj,grant martin sends his best he,s getting ready to go to reno,hope to see you guy,s later.

Average_Joe:

KCWrestlerMom's son actually was a Varsity wrestler on a high school state championship team - actually one of his matches was key in our teams win! I'm coming to her defense since she is not one to "gloat" about her son - so I'm gloating for her!

Wrestlingmom,

Start a new thread and gloat all you want. Maybe your 97th post or babble will have something worth reading.

wrestlingmom - you can't win this argument - you already have 96 posts. You need something like 11 and have joined the forum last month in order to be "right". Maybe the post about KCWrestlerMom will be edited now - the one about me was. I don't understand the nastiness that include comments like "go back in your hole" or making it seem like being JV is shameful.

Average_joe:

Obviously you don't realize that wrestling mom's have to be pretty thick skinned to tolerate this sport so your little snide remarks won't run me off.

You have been the only one to bring "negative" comments to this thread. So YOU need to start a new thread that we can all ignore.

KCWrestlers Mom only voiced her opinion. That is the purpose of this board. If you would have been around for any length of time you might have known that.

And to Jab44 your comments "Thank you average joe. this situation is not even comparable to High School. First of all if these ladies had any idea about wrestling or sports in general they would know there is a huge difference in maturity between 6 & 8 year olds. As these kids get older i.e. 8, 10, 12, 14,16 that gap becomes less and less aparent." Have you ever been to a high school wrestling match? Put a freshman and senior side by side and I will show you a difference in maturity. By the way, I know a h*** of a lot about this sport and other sports. You obviously have never met me or other wrestling mom's otherwise you would not be so quick to insult us on our lack of knowledge. Trust me, we're not out getting our hair and nails done on Saturday - we are in a stinky wrestling gym watching our boys.

I will gladly sign my name since most people that I care about already know who I am - I challenge those who want to insult us wrestling mom's to sign their names also.

Sharon Henes

We have a 6 yr. old. Not saying that they should be held out of the big dance, but there's not a lot of them that could handle the pressure. The second year of wrestling, with a very good record, We had one loss to Acacia, 2 losses to T.J. and one to Grant Hillard that has never been mentioned " he knows his stuff." Instead of discouraging these kids, try the 6u State Champ at Ottawa. It was the most amazing experiance, all the attention was on 6u. They run it better then the big boys, and one weight bracket has their own mat all day. You enjoy watching kids you've never seen before. They are all in you bracket, and you want to watch you competition all day. We do understand the point of paying all year, and getting kicked out at the end. Raise your head and find better things.
OTTAWA!!!

My oldest son has been in kids wrestling for 9 years now, and next year he will be first year 16 and under. I too once was adimate about getting 6 year olds invovled in their own class in the state tournement. And was willing to see 16 year olds being eliminated if that was what it took. Now of course, I feel very different. I still have a big stake in seeing 6 year olds being part of the state tourney in Topeka as I have a 4 year old boy who wants to wrestle like his brothers, but our stake in keeping 16 year olds involved is just as great. After 7 or 8 continuous years at state with my older sons, there is no doubt that there is plenty of time to be successful after you become 8 years old. I wonder if all of you who are promoting eliminating 16 and under at state will feel the same way in 8 or 9 years. Careful, what you do today may not serve you well tomorrow.

I don't think most people are saying to eliminate the 16 year olds, just saying to add the 6U. The point is simply being made that if 16U who spend 3 or 4 weeks in the club have a shot, the 6U that spend the time should have a shot too. It also would help unite some clubs if the 6 year olds had a bracket to compete at "real" state instead of "little" state as some like to refer to it.

Kylesdad, you should read the thread entitled "Kansas weight class thoughts". Sounds to me that there are plenty of people around who would like to see 16U eliminated from the state touney. This discussion happens every year at this time. Most 16U have spent numerous years in the room for numerous complete seasons which should give them some leverage. It's difficult for me to understand how anyone could argue that they somehow don't deserve it as much because they have only been in the room for 3 or four weeks. Again, I would like 6U included, but not at the expense of16U.

5465,

Go read that thread again from beginning to end.

What I would like to see is all the athletes 6 - 16 compete (with kids in their age group) at the State Tourney. I find it to be a joke that there are 22 and 24 weight classes in the 12U and 14U age groups respectively.

It would be possible to see all the athletes compete at the State Tourney, if the weight classes were adjusted to something similar to our parent organization -USAW.

When is it going to end????? Everybody wants the 6 year oldsin state and the 16 year olds gone. Let's say they vote it in. Then in a year or two. We have parents out there who have these stud 3 and 4 year olds. Then Ottawa runs a 4 and under state tournament to take the place of the six year olds now going to the big dance. Then we have parents saying the 4 year olds are wrestling all year and being left out. But, I don't want my 3 or 4 year old maybe wrestling a 7 year old. Then we have people saying lets kick the 14 year olds out and get the 4 year olds in. When is it going to stop??? Don't think I have anything against the little guys. Because I have a 3 and a 6 year old along with a 10 year old. My oldest son wrestled in the 8U as a 6 year old. But, he was physically and mentally ready to compete. He's a 4 time qualifer and 2 time placer. My six year old is no way ready. and he's spent 2 years in the wrestling room. He's not even at the same level as my older son in any sport. And I've worked with him the same way as my older son. Now, my 3 year old, I see alot of my older son in him as ability and wanting to do the sports. I'm sorry for dragging this out, but I see the same thing in other famlies that have several children as I do. The physical and mental abilities are quite different.
As far as the weight changes. I don't like the proposed weight changes. Because that's just promoting weight cutting. The weights start out 5lbs. apart and get up to 15lbs. in the lower age groups. I coach other sports and I've tried to talk parents into signing up their kids for wrestling. A lot of these parents know nothing about the sport of wrestling but, they sure do know about the weight cutting. I try to explain it to them and give them my point of view. We just can't have that much weight changes between weights. We need to promote our sport of wrestling and stay away from negatives as much as we can so our sport will grow. I like how the weights are broke down right now.

Stop the presses and help me out. I am one that is in favor of 6-year-olds at state but have thought of something that might cause me to think more about this decision. I can't believe no one has brought up the numbers issues. For example, there are many more kids who get the opportunity to experience "State" at Ottawa than there would be at Topeka. Now not meaning to give ammunition to the other side, but this is a decent argument. I don't know if there is a solution to how to do this but the reality of it is that there is already a 6 and under state, the question becomes, where is it held and how many kids get to go there. I am still in favor of finding a way to have 6 & Under and 16 & Under at the big show at Topeka. But I am moved by the fact that so many 6 & Under kids get to experience the concept at their own tournament. Don't have any easy answers just a few questions.

If you really want the 6 & u state tournament to be like the Big Kids then there needs to be qualifing tournaments and allow 2 days for it. I think it is unrealistic to expect these kids to wrestle 32 and 64 man brackets in one day. Which is exactly how it is now. If you had qualifers and a 2 day tournament then it WOULD be just like the big kids but in a different location.

Mike, I posted a comment about this in one of the other topics. I questioned on how parents would choose tournaments - or would Ottawa become the consolation tournament for those who didn't qualify in districts?

Dustin Winter from Clearwater made it. He was a little guy, like 60 lbs or so.

Packerholic, you seem to go to the absurd to try and make your point. You ask "where will it end". The fact is, there is currently a 6U bracket for the kids to wrestle all year long. Then, in order to qualify for the state tourney, they must wrestle up to the best 8u kids in the state. The state tourney should match the age brackets that the kids wrestle in all year long.

The Ottawa tourney is a mixed bag. They do a great job, but allowing everyone to go to state without earning it, takes some of the luster off of going. In most cases though, if you place at Ottawa, it is harder to do because of the number of entries and matches. My son will wrestle 8u next year, so I have no personal gain from having 6u added, but I still fully support adding 6u at state. Give the 6u kids a fair chance at a reward for all their hard work for the year.

Packerholic, you seem to go to the absurd to try and make your point. You ask "where will it end". The fact is, there is currently a 6U bracket for the kids to wrestle all year long. Then, in order to qualify for the state tourney, they must wrestle up to the best 8u kids in the state. The state tourney should match the age brackets that the kids wrestle in all year long.

The Ottawa tourney is a mixed bag. They do a great job, but allowing everyone to go to state without earning it, takes some of the luster off of going. In most cases though, if you place at Ottawa, it is harder to do because of the number of entries and matches. My son will wrestle 8u next year, so I have no personal gain from having 6u added, but I still fully support adding 6u at state. Give the 6u kids a fair chance at a reward for all their hard work for the year.

kylesdad - how old is your son? Is he 6U? Do you have any other children? From reading your comments, it seems to be that you are defending adding 6U to State only because you have a 6U.
Someone said earlier on this topic that using the numbers of kids in a category to justify adding 6U was wrong. I agree. Most 6U join wrestling, get their wrestling card and try the sport out. Many drop out their first year. Many others just go to a few tournaments. There are even some clubs that limit the number of tournaments a young child can go to so that they don't get burned out as they get bigger (and some of these clubs have excellent high school programs). There are only about 100-200 kids in 6U who are dedicated enough to go to all of the tournaments and to compete at the state level.
This has already been voted on and it wasn't even close. If it is voted on again this year, it will have the same result. So let's find something else to talk about.

Mom4 My boy will be moving up to 10& under next year and my younger son is 7 and does not wrestle so I have nothing to gain by wanting to see the 6 & under added to State.I do think they should be added, they pay the same amount for their wrestling card pay the same amount for tournament fees and from what I have witnessed over the last 5 years work just as hard in practice as the older kids.Iam not saying the 16 & under should be dropped but If I had to choose one or the other I would choose the 6 n under

Mom4 please don't presume to know my situation. My youngest is 7 years old and will not be wrestling 6u next year. I am in support of the 6u kids having a division at state for several reasons. Primarily, because I see several 6u kids working thier butts off all year, only to be tossed aside at the end of the year so the coaches can work on the kids "going to Topeka" There is a division for 6u all year long until state. Go to Ottawa and observe the drive and desire of the 6u kids in the 32 and 64 man brackets. There are plenty of 6u kids that are up to the challenge and deserve the chance to qualify and wrestle state just like the older kids. The only reason I bring up the 16u is because at least in our club, the 16u kids come in for 3 weeks of the season and then are welcomed at state. It sucks that the kids that work IN THE CLUB all year don't have the same opportunity. I am not in favor of pulling 16u, but I do fully support adding 6u to state, even though I would not be personally affected.

Okay, I have a 4 year old who started wrestling this year. We paid for his membership and he worked hard all year long too. Why can't he have the same chance? Reason: My husband and I made the decision that both of our boys, age 4 and 6, had plenty of years ahead of them full of tough competition and they could wait until they were older. Our oldest boy, age 13, started to wrestle when he was 5 and we did not even start going to sub-district until he was 7. Not because he was not ready. We just felt that in the long run, we did not want to burn him out and instead wanted to end the season on a positive note. (5 months is a long time for a 6 year old-especially going to practice 4 days a week). Many of the kids that he use to wrestle with are no longer wrestling (including one of his friends who placed at state from age 6-10). Again, I just don't understand why parents can not wait. No one is saying that they can not go to state. If they truly are ready, they will go. If not, just wait a couple of years. As far as the 16 year olds, yes they are only in the program for 3 weeks, however, they still pay the same dues. They still are practicing everyday (just in the high school program). And, in some clubs, the 16 year olds are in the CLUB after high school practice helping out the little kids.

Mom4 you asked "Okay, I have a 4 year old who started wrestling this year. We paid for his membership and he worked hard all year long too. Why can't he have the same chance?"
BIG DIFFERENCE all year long your 4 year old wrestled 6U. If there was a 4u class all year long and then they were excluded from State, I would make the same argument.
Kids deserve rewards for their hard work. Kids work all year to get good enough to make it to State. Why not give 6u the same opportunity? You claim if they are good enough they can make it at 8u. With that logic, why not eliminate the 14U weight class, and ask them to wrestle 16u, if they are good enough....

mom4

You hit the nail on the head with your post.

You and your husband made the decision that your children would wait until they were older to compete in the qualifying tournaments. I respect the choice you made.

That is why I would like to see the 6 year olds at State competing with 6 (and yes there will be some 7) year olds.

There may be some of those out there who would like to have the CHOICE! Let it be their CHOICE to compete against kids in their age group!

6 year olds don't need to be at state.They have a lot of years left to go to state let them learn the sport and learn how to compete and handle the stress of state. why don't we have a 4u state also . let's drop 16u they have the high school season why not drop 14u too they have middle school. Let's get real 6 year olds don't need to be there and the majority i think it was 70% last year voted against it.

I've seen this statement a couple of times possibly by bubowski and it needs to be corrected. 1. To my knowledge there was NO vote on this issue at the 04 meeting and the subject never came up. 2. At the 03 meeting it was voted on and I would say the results were close to the above estimate BUT as I recall this was after it was explained to the body that allowing 6U at state could only be done (for space reasons) after either eliminating 16U or adjusting the weight divisions in both 16U and 14U. At the time, nobody was prepared to deal with these issues of who/what to eliminate so the vote was moot and the tally reflected the same. My guess is, with a proposal as to how to deal with the space issues this vote would have been and will be much closer in the future.

Just a thought, what would the wrestling family (everyone of us) consider by allowing the 6 and under's at state but also seperating them and the 8 and unders at different times and maybe extending the tournament to 3 days. In other words put all 6 and 8 and unders together and have the 10's, 12's ,14's, and 16's together. But also let them all share the same amount of time in the spotlight.

sounds like a great idea if somehow everyone could be in the opening ceremonies and then everyone had finals on the same day so all finalists could be in the closing part. I donot know exactly how this could work but looks like a reasonable solution that should be looked at.

bubowski,
Why do you feel the need to go to the absurd "why don't we have a 4u state also"
There is no 4u group all year long, there IS a 6u class all year until it is ripped away before state. Arguments can be made either way, but to go to the 4u card is ridiculous

Does anyone out there know why it was decided in the very beginning of Kansas USA wrestling to allow 6 &u there own division all year long and, then omit them from the State Championship? Or, was it changed later on down the road? I'm just trying figure out what the thought processes were.

3 days is not a great idea. That would increase the cost for everyone.

the original reason for not having 6U (I believe) was that most who have been in the sport for along time believe that is too young to put those kids under that pressure. 95% of those kids will not be wrestling when they are in HS. Granted, the 5% who do will be studs. The issue is we all think our kid is one of the 5%. Most pushing for 6u state are parents caught up in the moment. As a parent and a coach I have seen both sides. Those not as emotionally connected are generally against it as proven by the state vote each year. We have seen it too many times.

I offer this honest opinion. This is not meant to offend anyone just to give my perspective. To be completly honest most kids that play at 6u, or just start later, get more serious at 8u and then jump in at 10U or even 12U will be far ahead of the 6U phemoms. Everyone has their own examples, but my son wrestled only to play at 5 and 6 in a very few tournaments. At 7 wrestled some open tournaments. By 8 was turned loose and was state runner-up and by 9 was national champion, kicking the hell out of all those 6u studs. Some would agrue that I even started him seriously too young and others that get serious at 10-12 will pound him by HS. Time will tell. The very high odds are however that if you get your wishes and are allowed to put 6u's in that environment, you will regret it in 3-4 years. Some will thrive. Most will not.

The truth is none of us know the perfect answer. It's different for each kid. It's fine balance between starting them seriously too early and the sport losing it's luster, or starting them too late and they can't catch up. The odds say however that 6u is not the building blocks for HS champions. That occurs somewhere about 10-12 then is fine tuned at 13-14 then you deliver them to HS ready to compete at a very high level.

If I had to do over again I would not start my son until he was 8 or 9 and put that same time alot of people put into hauling that 6 year old and put that into summer wrestling and hauling them to Tulsa and other top competition when they can quickly grasp it between 10-13.

I also believe however that if enough people want it, even though I don't maybe agree with it, 6U should be put in at state. That's what are country is based on, if the majority wants it right or wrong...it should find a way.

Just my opinion,

SlamBam

It is my understanding, (at least this is how it was told to me so it could be wrong), that in the beginning there wasn't even an 8U division. Then someone (I'm sure it was District 2), said why not add the younger kids. This was opposed by the naysayers particularly in District 3 who said "7 and 8 are too young for state" and "where will it end?".

I think there has been a lot of good discussion on this topic, but I still don't think 6 & U should get cramed into the Expo center's main floor or remove an age, or add another day to the state tournament. I think there will be way to much pressure on 5-6 year old kids wrestling at state, and if memory serves me right at the state meeting each year the topic gets voted down by a very large margin. For all you lobbyist out there you definetly have your work cut out. To the guy who posted about the amount of difference in kids out at 6 & U verses the older kids should be the deciding factor on who is in or out at state I think you need to go watch the older kids wrestle because the difference is obvious kids start to "weed themselves out" the older they get. The amount of "cupcake" matches greatly reduces the older the kids get. A lot of the smaller kids wrestle 1-2 years and decide they don't like it and quit. On the topic posted earlier on how 8 & U was added good point, and my question is if we add the 6's when does it stop. Some kids start when they are 4 practicing ect... do we then add a 4 & U bracket on down the road, please let it go and move on the way it is now is perfectly fine! Way to go Team Kansas at Iowa I was impressed watching our kids wrestle in th UNI-Dome in Iowa!

I agree 6u does not need to be at state. The people lobbying hard for it now probably have 6 year old wrestlers, they will be the same one crying when their kid is 16 and they don't have an age group or one with just a few weight classes. Yes this has been voted on at either the state meeting or the district meeting for the last 4-5 years. and it was voted down last year 70% against and 30% for adding them. A 6 year old has a lot of time left to go to state why take a chance away from a kid that has been wrestling for 8-10 years. A 3 day tournament would not work that would mean 4-5 days off of work for most people, You want to reduce numbers have a 3 day state and a lot of kids would not be able to come because their parents could not get the time off of work.

I don't have a child in 6 and under. I was just making a (what I feel) decent suggestion. I can understand both sides of the line. But until we can find a solution to the problem, this topic will go on. Don't take anything away from the 16 and under but also don't deprieve the 6 and under from all the glory either. Who knows what to do. It is kinda like a midget using mouthwash, who would know?

SlamBam: I agree with your statement completely. I too have seen what becomes of most of the 6U wrestlers since my oldest son has been in kids wrestling for 8 years. When he started, we only went to a few small tournaments. As he became older, we started going to more and our goals changed with every season. Many of the kids he use to wrestle against and lose too when he was younger are 1.no longer the dominate ones 2. no longer even wrestling. This is not just something that I have seen in wrestling. As a teacher, I have seen so many grade school "studs" who never get any better, drop-out, or do other things. Yes, there are those rare (and I mean rare) kids who dominate in grade school and continue to dominate in high school. I have also seen many kids who were average in grade school that become awesome in high school. Kids need time to develop their OWN interest and their OWN abilities to succeed. They need time to just be a kid.

Perhaps the reason kids burn out on wrestling after a couple years at 6u have something to do with the fact they are shoved aside at the end fo the year in favor of all the kids going to "big state" . Perhaps if they had a 6u bracket at state to reward the kids for all their efforts, the kids would continue on in the sport instead of feeling like they didn't matter to anyone. Just a thought

give me a break, that's a lame excuse when your kid is older you will realize 6u don't need a state. It sounds like this is a big ego trip for you. If your kid likes wrestling when he is 7 he won't care if they had a 6u state. stop the whining and get on with it it's not going to happen

i have herd
from both sides in this 6 and under, just remember if you cut out the 16 and under group so the 6 and under can go to state that one day your child will be at that age and say who was the dum people that cut the 16 year old kids out. Then I am betting that the people that were for it then will tell there kids that it was not them. In to days world its the parents that want to stand up and say thats my son that won. i would just like to know how many parents that have there kids in wrestling have them in other sports and drive the kids tell they get old enough to say i quit. I know a teacher that has a small child that is driving him to the limet and belive me the day will come that he thows in the towel and i hope the boy learns from his life not to treat his child the same way.

I agree completely grandad, most 6 year olds quit before the season ends and by the time they are in 8u they could care less if they had 6u at state. It is the parents of the 6 year olds that want to say my son won state and they are mad because they can't do it in the 8u division. Time flys and kids grow up and before you know it they are gone. let the 6year olds have fun and let's not put any pressure on them to win, let them learn the sport and enjoy themselves and in a blink of an eye they will be in 8u

Actually, in the blink of an eye they are too old to compete any longer in kids club and you are thankful you had those extra years at the end when you can see the clock ticking away, knowing that your time watching them compete is coming to an end......

Youth Sports
Quick Facts

Age in which children first have the capability to understand social dynamics of competitive sports: 8 years old

Source: U.S. Census Bureau, National Council of Youth Sports, NCAA.org, Jay Coakley's "Sports in Society".

· Number of kids ages 5-19 in U.S.: 61,446,112
· Number of kids ages 5-18 that competes in 61 top sports organizations: 38,259,845

Source: U.S. Census Bureau, National Council of Youth Sports, NCAA.org, Jay Coakley's "Sports in Society".

Youth Age Divisions

Youth competitions typically take place in two-year age divisions. These age divisions provide young athletes the opportunity to compete with other athletes of similar ability. The age divisions for competition year 2005 are as follows:

Age Division Year of Birth
Bantam (10 & under) 1995+
Midget (11-12) 1993-1994
Youth (13-14) 1991-1992
Intermediate (15-16) 1989-1990
Young (17-18) 1987-1988


2005 Divisions
The Junior Olympics is divided into six divisions for boys and six divisions for girls. The athlete's year of birth shall determine the division in which the athlete shall compete. With each succeeding year each division shall be adjusted. Listed below are the 2005 divisions (NOTE: Sub-Bantams do not advance past the Region 2 Meet in both Track & Field and Cross Country):
Sub-Bantam: Born 1997 or after
Bantam: Born in 1995-1996
Midget: Born in 1993-1994
Youth: Born in 1991-1992
Intermediate: Born in 1989-1990
Young: Born in 1987-1988

(NOTE: Sub-Bantams do not advance past the Region 2 Meet in both Track & Field and Cross Country):

Smokey,

I don't like the way the AAU does their age birthday cutoff (January 1) due to the fact that you have a high percentage of kids (those born between 9-1 and 12-31) whom every other year get cutoff from competing with kids in their own class and end up competing against kids two grades ahead of them. I know people disagree with this but I really like our 9/1 birthday cutoff better.

I know that is not the point of your post. I would point out that although Sub Bantam divisions do not compete in the AAU Cross Country they do run as Bantams just as we have our 6&U wrestle in 8 & U at State and there are a lot of very young kids who compete at this national cross country meet. The differences in cross country are that first you do not have the same space and time limitations as wrestling. You can run a lot of runners at the same time in the big outside parks that these meets are held in. A second difference is that there is not physical combat between the athletes in cross country, so there is no chance of a younger athlete getting overpowered physically by an older athlete.

I share the reservations about it being too early to take the 6&U to State but I feel this way about taking them to Salina, Park City-Wichita, Liberty Nationals and the other big in-season tournaments. I liked the way it was when my son started in 1st grade as a 6&U and he only wrestled four novice tournaments. I don't know if they wrestled 6&U at any open tournaments then. I am coming to change my position though now that this 6&U division is so widespread at so many major in-season tournaments. I think it is becoming more difficult to make the argument now that it is too much pressure at Topeka State but not at Salina, Wichita-Park City, Liberty Nationals and the rest.

Pennsylvania Junior Wrestling State Championships

Presently, we provide opportunities for youth wrestlers in 3 age categories: 10 & Under, 11 &12, and 13&14. The road to a PJW State Championship begins in your local community with a sectional tournament. The qualifiers from these tournaments advance to the Area Finals for the Area representing their community (this is similar to the PIAA Regional Tournaments). The qualifiers from the Area tournaments proceed to the PJW State Championship.

Yes bubowski, it is almost as lame as an excuse as the people that throw out the "where does it stop, why not have a 4u" Kids have the opportunity all year to wrestle, then the reward is pulled at the end of the season. By the way, I have no vested interest in seeing 6u have their spot at state in the future, I just believe in being fair to the younger kids. For those of you that say its all parents, talk to the kids that work hard all year (even the 6u) and you will see they do understand and desire to be the best with a fair place to prove it.

kylesdad-you said you have no vested interest in having 6U in state but earlier stated that your son was going to be 7 next year. So that means that your son was wrestling 6U and you are one of the parents that we are talking about. It is easy to say you want 6U when your son is that age. Say that when your son turns 10 or better yet, say that when your son turns 16. Yes, bubowski hit the nail on the head.

I have read all of the arguments for and against 6 and under participating at Topeka's State Championship. Some of the comments have been extremely harsh and VERY narrowminded. I was offended at the attacks to the Wrestling Moms. My family has been involved with wrestling for many years and I've attended four straight State Championships. I have a son who will be in 16 and under next year and had one in 6 and under this year. So I can empathize with the emotions behind both age groups. I have also had experience with another equally competitive sport, Premier Soccer. In both sports, indvidual excellence is the ultimate goal( You know what I'm saying...that high school Varsity spot or College scholarship!). ALOT of time and money on the parent's part is spent and the children are prodded sometimes willingly and sometimes not along the way. Similar to wrestling, those "first in the sport" parent's assume that because their child is very good and on a great team at an early age then their son is the next Freddie Adu. But over time, other's skills improve and puberty kicks in! The playing field levels significantly at around age 12. And as SmokeyCabin has said to my own sons, when you get to this age group everyone is tough because the average wrestlers have quit. You'll still see some of those once amazing 6 year olds at age 14 competing and then there will be a whole list of others that you say, "whatever happened to?" I do know that my 7th grader drove SmokeyCabin crazy at age six running around the wrestling room and climbed on Smokey's back more that he practiced those first two years. He placed at Novice tournaments and there wasn't a 6 and under Championship back then(if there was I didn't know about it).
But you know, I know he isn't looking back lamenting over if only he had gone to State at six, how great he would have been. If we are all honest with ourselves, at age six Gameboy and Hotwheels rank higher and the honor of a State Championship is short lived and it's more important to the parents in bragging rights. I could have taken my Kindergartner this year to the 6 and Under Championship, but you know wrestling season is long enough for all of us and the other two did fine without it. By the way my seventh grader got second at State this year, it was a long 7 year trip to the Championship, but it was well worth the wait! On the other side my other son placed too and he's moving up next year to 16 and Under so it will be the last hurrah, so to speak. I know IT IS IMPORTANT to a 15 or 16 year old (compared to a six year-old or parent of one) to place at State. Those Championship memories will be much more engrained in those wrestler's minds when they look back when they are adults than of those memories from when they were five or six. I do believe that the State Championship is more VALUABLE when it is kept as a PERSONAL goal or achievement. When it is something that a wrestler strive's for, it is kept special. So now that I've honored Vince Nowak by writing a book, I will finish by saying let's keep it the way it is, it works well. It is an honor to make it to State whether you are a six year-old competing at 8 and Under or a sixteen year old for the last time and let's keep it sacred. And for those out there who want to argue that it is their six year old wrestler who wants it most of all, that's great that your child loves the sport. However, it is alot easier to keep a child competitive striving towards a goal than to have to push them along after the disappointment of losing something they've already attained. Those are some of the ones that have burned out that we look back on and say "what ever happened to so and so, remember when you thought you could never beat him?" There's always an exception, but the pattern hasn't changed in my experience with wrestling, soccer, baseball, football and the list goes on.

I have posted on every topic that concerns adding 6U at state. I am really against it because as a teacher and researcher, I know that what we want for our kids is not always right. I also know about kids developmental stages, growth patterns and mental health. Kids need time to develop at their own pace-not their parents pace. Many people who are pushing to add 6U are only doing so because they have a son or daughter who is that age. They are not looking at the child's mental and physical development age. They are thinking of winning NOW instead of in the long run. On the topic titled "WOW...." I am going to list two articles and one book that I think EVERYONE needs to read. And for those of you who "hate reading" I will even summarize the articles.

Well, I checked the responses, average_joe and Jab44 are gone! Way to go wrestling Mom's!

Isn't it baseball season? :p

I am glad their negativity and name calling are gone! I have learned alot from this debate, and I really do appreciate the difference in opinions.

The postive note on this entire thread is seeing so many parents so involved in their children's lives. Kids need their parents actively involved - not only in wrestling, but in their school work, school activities, parent/teacher conferences, music concerts, etc. :-)

I was looking at the BASEBALL message boards this morning and came across this team website.

WE ARE A FIRST YEAR 4 AND UNDER TEE BALL TEAM. WE CURRENTLY PLAY LEAGUE AND TOURNAMENT BALL EXCLUSIVELY AT ***** BALLPARK.

OUR COACHING PHILOSOPHY IS TO TEACH TEAMWORK, SPORTSMANSHIP, AND THE BASIC FUNDAMENTALS OF BASEBALL.

MY COACHING DESIRES IS TO BUILD A TEAM THAT WILL BE TOGETHER FOR YEARS TO COME.
TEAM RULES:
ALWAYS BE ON TIME TO GAMES AND PRACTICES
NO CHILD UNATTENDED WITH A BAT IN HIS/HER HAND
TEACH GOOD SPORTSMAN SHIP
SAFETY, SAFETY, NO CHILD UNATTENDED WITH BAT OR BALL
CALL BY 9PM PRIOR TO MISSING A UPCOMING GAME/PRACTICE

I wonder who takes the kids to the bathroom and changes them if they have an accident? The parallel to wrestling is what age is too young? But I can guarantee you because I've seen it happen, that these baseball parents will do everything they can to get their kids to tryouts and if their son makes the team they will think they have the next A-Rod. Then unfortunately most of the kids will not be playing by 12 years of age.

By the way, this isn't a local team, this is a nationwide message board but it just goes to show you that this argument exists in ALL sports and generally with the same outcome, too much pressure, too early, then the kids drop out. And by the way, there is a t-ball world series out there!