Salina

Great job to the Salina club!! Ya, it it ran long but the compotision was worth the wait. My ONLY complaint is the refs were not up to the standard of "champion tournament" . Some were better than others, admitting they missed a call. But why does a coach get a warning for questioning a judgement call? Thought that was the whole reason for a head ref.

I'm glad someone brought this up. As I see it there are two problems with officiating, and one of them is Coaches that do not know the rules. The second is officials that don't know the rules. I saw several of both this weekend. We as coaches need to know the rules. I am surprised every weekend to hear a coach arguing a call and I'm sitting there listening knowing good and well that the official is right and the coach has no clue. This is why officials that DO know the rules get so frustrated. They are getting bombarded by Coaches that are questioning calls that should never be questioned.

Officials that DO NOT know the rules, ITS YOUR JOB!!! FIGURE IT OUT!!! I have had several officials that made a bad call and when I questioned it they got the head official and the call was made right. The official, usually younger, would thank me after the match and say that they were not aware of a rule change and they would be calling it correctly from then on. A LEARNING EXPERIENCE. This weekend an official called a leg cradle illegal, he was very adament that it was illegal. I asked for the Head Official and he corrected it. The official never acknoweldged that he was wrong or apologized. Just changed the score and went on. Officials make mistakes, and it is ok to make mistakes, but they have to be willing to listen and learn. They are not right just because the have on the stripes.

As for questioning a call. You may challenge a call where a rule may have been violated or overlooked, but not a judgement call. If you challenge a judgement call, you will be hit with coach misconduct. The best way to ask about this is to ask the official what criteria was met for the call. A simple explanation will suffice most coaches. Not having a reason or criteria is unacceptable. One more thing, every call is not a judgement call. Please be able to clarify for the coach so he may LEARN ALSO.

Chad
I agree 100% . Ref are human and make mistakes. But, TOO many of them use the judgement call as a scape goat. Once they use the word "judgement" you as a coach are screwed. Whether right or wrong. What I see this year is a lot of YOUNG refs, which is good for the future of the sport. But what is going to happen in March when we have to vote for State officials? A lot of them have a chip on their shoulder due to the head official telling the don't take crap from the coaches. Are they not learning from us as we are from them?

Chad with rule change on figure 4 on the head. How can a leg cradle not be illegal when its a figure 4 with a leg etc just wondering. oh yeah and refs suck as a general rule

Jake crosses his ankles and not at the knees, making it still legal.

Without sounding to soft, I think officials in general try to do a good job. I really think it is the coaches that need to become more knowledgable. If officials did not have to deal with coaches that did not know the rules, they would be more willing to discuss legitimate concerns.

I see so he scissors the head with a leg making it legal ok good talk. refs suck pretty much as a rule

Scenario....

It's the beginning of the 3rd period, and coach "A" questions the scoring that happened in the 1st period. After a brief discussion, the score was changed on the bout sheet and flipper. Coach "C" is behind the score table watching and has nothing to do with the match and says out loud, "you can't change the score. Once the whistle blows to start the 2nd period, what happened in the 1st period is done and can't be changed". The official says he can change the score if it's wrong.

I have always thought that if you're going to argue the score, you had better do it before the start of the next period, or you're s.o.l. Is this a new rule?

Section 6: Correction of Errors (pg. 32 and 33)

Article 5
Tournament scoring errors by the referee or official scorer:
a. Match Score
1. Errors by the timekeeper, official scorer, or referee must be corrected prior to the offended contestant leaving the mat area if additional wrestling is necessary. If additional wrestling is not necessary, the error may be corrected as long as the offended contestant or coach remains in the mat area.

2. Errors involving the computation of match score must be corrected prior to the next match in which either wrestler competes. If the error necessitates additional wrestling it must be corrected prior to the offended contestant leaving the mat area.

I actually had a ref tell me on Saturday that he knew more about the rules because he took the test to be an official and I obviously did not. I didn't even know how to respond.

lol...thats awesome...I gonna use that one when I get questioned sometime...thx
Seriously like I have said before..too many officials come to the mat with an attitude. The officail for tourny are also preempted by the head official and what they want done, so if the head official is that way so will the crew in most cases. I do think the head official can play a major part in the crew. That might be where the problems starts. Then they hide behind the all mighty "judgement" card. I do feel that if an official is confident in his or her ability then they shouldnt need to use the I dont have to explain my "judgement".
I dont have one problem with a coach asking me why or why not I made my call. I will explain, if I was incorrect on something then if possible we change to correct my error. If we just come to a disagreement then I apologize for not seeing it the same and walk back to the center of the mat. I do feel if official should put forth full effort into EVERY match and verbalize what they are seeing and thinking, there will be lot less issues.
I just feel officials need not to be so sensative and expect to not please all. It is a comepetion with a winner and loser....most be hate to lose...refs are in the middle of the battle. Expect it or stictly do novice.

THe leg craddle came up during the coaches meeting in Marion as well. If I read the rules right as long as the wrestler using the craddle sissors the leg it is still legal, but if the leg move into a figure 4 position it is illegal. Is this correct or do I need to look at the rules again. Because we were told at the coaches meeting the leg craddle itself was illegal by the Head Ref. Not that it matters (or should matter0 at a novice tournament

Andrew Steele

I would agree with the some officials comming to the mat with an attitude. As far as the head ref playing a role in this, some tournaments I would say yes, but I feel the head ref at Salina was very respectful toward questions or concerns brought to him and he seemed to help out in anyway he could.

Back to some of the refs having attitudes. I witnessed some of these attitudes first hand this weekend some mats I was coaching and some I was just watching. For example, I questioned a call toward the end of the tourn. in the medal rounds, and the first answer I recieved from this official was "you think this is actually what you saw". then the official told me that if this was a 10 or 12 yr old it would be a good question but since this was a 6U match I should not bring it up. When I informed him that since this was TOC it should not matter of age, I got an official warning and he laughed and walked off. Another example, I was watching a match which I had no connection with either wrestler, and seen a ref. roll his eyes at a coach from the center of the matt at give him a thumbs up (being sarcastic) when a coach asked a question. This to me is very un-proffesional.

Now on a positive note. The officiating at Salina was probaly some of the best overall that I feel we have seen this year, but a few bad apples or atttitudes give many good refs bad names.

And before anyone ask, no I have never been an offical and no I wouldnt want their job, as wrestling is a very emotional sport for athletes, and coaches. But I do feel a referee should stay professional in the heat of the moment. They are there to keep the match under control not be on a power trip.

Lance Geyer

The ref on Mat #1 was excellent. A very active ref that I didn't think blew any calls and was continually moving around to be in the best possible view to watch the wrestlers. Bottom line best ref I have had this year.

There was one terrible ref that I beleive was asked to leave the tournament. I coached a match that he called locked hands on a kid who had a cradle locked up.

i am not saying that the head ref for salina did this...i was not there at the tourny....i just know as an official ihave heard head officials tell the crew in mtgs that if a caoch questions anything..warn them and dont hesitate to eject...i feel this is where some officials get the attitude that they are the almighty and know matter what..coaches are wrong and refs are right.
Congrats to the salina club on getting a quality crew from the sounds.

That was Danny Deshazer.He did an excellent job.Everytime i watched wrestling on mat 1,he was right in the action constantly moving with wrestlers.

Are you really talking about the ref on Mat #1 at Salina? I guess I must have been sleeping during my son's matches because I almost had to stop one of them because his lips were so blue. He left the mat with bruising all the way across his throat, a huge "hickey-like" bruise on his back, and scratches across his eye because his opponent was swinging his hands so hard at his face. My son said the coach (I believe the father) was yelling the whole time "squeeze his neck harder". That isn't wrestling to me.

There was also a boy in his bracket that they delayed matches because his hair was too long and this happened early in the day and even at probably 5:00 in the evening. Once should have been enough. Should have been taken care of after his first match.

Not trying to be rude, but just trying to figure out how you were so impressed by this guy.

I think this kind of criticism is just wrong.

First, my son lost an early match on a judgment call. Over to the back-side with tons of matches to even try to place. So what! Maybe the official blew it, maybe not. It's part of the sport.

If someone really has such a problem with an official he needs to get his name or ID number and take it up with the tourney director. Have clear examples of why the official is sub-standard and should not be invited back. Criticize the tourney if they hire the poor official the next year.

But none of these guys/gals should have to see their identities (implicitly or explicitly) listed in a talk-forum and then be criticized by posters.

General discussions about what officials should do or how they should address questions from coaches is one thing. Specific identification of the officials and complaints are another.

This is wrong. If you have such a big problem with an official, man-up and actually do something about it. Follow a mature procedure to make your point to the people that count.

I just gave clear examples. I didn't blame anyone for a loss. I am just wondering how I saw such a difference in a ref than the person that found them to be the best this year.

I was very upset and unfortunately haven't had time to go to anyone about this. I wasn't bashing anyone just having a discussion.

I felt like Danny Deshazer worked very hard all day as well on Mat 1. And on a 6u mat, there is no way you can criticize a referee trying to figure who actually has control, cause neither one of the 6u kids that are wrestling know either. Show me a ref that always gets it right, and I'll kiss your rear end.............

Like clockwork, by early Sunday morning the day after a big tourney, someone has to post how bad the refs were. Come on, they were very good on every mat I was at. Just because one call goes against your kid during the day, the whole crew sucks. Ask yourself what kind of example you are setting for your kid by allowing him to blame a loss on a referee.........


If you don't like hearing the words "squeeze harder", you probably ought to move over to basketball, cause you're going to hear it every time a kid gets put on his back. It is a brutal sport. My kindergartner has a shiner, and several scrapes and bruises, from Salina. All part of the process of toughening them up for when it counts in high school.

You are all putting words into my mouth. Go back and read what I wrote. I know there are bumps and bruises involved. I didn't blame anyone for any losses. I never said the whole crew was bad.

And don't tell me to take my child to another sport. He has the right to participate in any sport he wishes.

You have blown all of this out of proportion.

You should also note I never mentioned a name as there were several refs on Mat 1 as well as all mats.

My son does a lot of Greco-Roman throws and once it hits the mat his go-to move is to lock up the head and arm then squeeze the living daylights out of kids. it usaully results in a pin or it will definitely change the tempo of a match. I wasnt at salina but if you are on the same mat as us you will hear me tell him to Squeeze. it is Legal and will be used every chance we get...

I agree with all the above except there WAS at least 1 particular official on mat 3 that was absolutely aweful. Not so much with judgement calls but not paying attention to the match and not knowing rules. Heck he repeatedly awarded points the entire day to the wrong wrestler. And no I'm not complaining because my kid got beat because he placed and was in the medal match. However, during one of his matches his opponent applied a full nelson, not just touched on both sides but laced his fingers and was applying pressure. Did it for 3-4 seconds as I'm yelling "full nelson". Never did stop it. When they went out of bounds I called him to the table to ask why he wouldn't call it as he was standing in plain sight of it. The guy at the table even chewed him out and told him "you HAVE to watch that and stop it" and he didn't even have a dog in the fight. The ref still didn't award the point and told me he didn't see it. Many unhappy people on that mat all day. That particular official shouldn't be officiating. Lol, during one match I was watching (not my kids) I witnessed him ask the coaches what points he should award because he didn't know.

This was strickly the throat/neck. That is what bothered me. At one point I could tell he was about to not be able to breathe. That was my issue with it. Also, I feel like kids should have some "wrestling moves" in there and not just choke a kid. That was the point I was trying to make.

I agree with you wrestlerspappy, squeezing the daylights out of a kid is legal, and that is going to be what you hear many times on 6U, as this is what they know how to do. But as wrestle4fun, stated earlier the wrestler had his arm across the other wrestlers throat, and the coach was yelling squeeze. Putting presure on the throat of another wrestler is NOT LEGAL, and should be stopped. I have no clue which match this happened in, but being an official on 6U would be difficult. JMO

Yes that you will not hear out of me. i will point out to the official and my son, that the hold is illegal if he doesnt have an arm in there. there is no point in a kid getting choked out and not sportsmanlike but if an arm is in there im all for it. part of being a wrestler, what doesnt kill ya makes us stronger...

I thought the ref's did a good job overall, sure just like us coaches there are a couple of bad one also.

The thing I like that they did which doesn't happen very often is that they had some experienced refs on the 6U kids mixed in there. Sometime those are the hardest matches to deal with.

Them little guys roll all over the place and flop back and forth you could end up with a 24-20 score after the 1st...lol

Typically rookie refs get on those mats and it hurts them because of the quick flip flop pace.

I seen this at Valley Center with the high school kids doing officiating in the Novice. 14-10 after the 1st...lol

The more experienced wretlers tend to be in more control and most calls are more clear cut which will help out the rookie refs.

Just my thoughts though.

I have been extremely impressed by 99% of refs in the past 3 years. They take time to explain things to kids. They are very encouraging, etc. I have great respect for them!!

I was not trying to call anyone out by any means. Just concerned is all.

I do understand that there are a lot of legal moves involving the neck, but in my sons case it was clearly not legal. Oh well, lesson learned.

I would agree with the Refs overall doing a good job. As I stated in an earlier post, I feel this is the best overall refs we have seen this year, but a few bad apples mixed in gives a sour taste for all. And I would agree with you it was nice to see some expreienced officials on the young wreslters mat. This is something that other coaches and myself have discussed on multiple occasions this year, how they need to have the "green" refs with the older kids, as it is easier to make a deffinate call.

if you want to see bad refs take your kansas kid to oklahoma then you will thank yourself for wrestling in kansas. refs cant see everything we as coaches can because sometimes we see things in our eyes not the refs eyes. overall i had few complaints on the refs but as the day got longer they did make more mistakes. thats just part of wrestling. tell your kid to make sure and pin his kid and there will be no mistake about it.

REALLY.......... that blows my mind. So lets say you have a wrestler who is up 1 with seconds left in the match, and both wrestlers are on there feet. The wrestler who is winning isn't really looking to score, but rather looking to not get scored on. He finishes the match not getting scored on and assumes he won, when the coach for the other wrestler questions the score from the 1st period finding out that the score on the bout sheet is wrong, and your wrestler loses........ now if your wrestler would have known he was down he would have been playing offense rather than defense...... to me that would be bad time.