KSHSAA State Placers at Subs

Can KSHSAA state placers wrestle in the 14u div or do they have to move up to high school div?

According to the rules this year, they would be required to wrestle the high school division if they were a state placer. At least that is how I understood it at the district and state meetings.

Jason Storm

District Directors need to check their 14u brackets.

That motion failed to pass the State body. They can wrestle 14&U.

if you are a kshaa state placer why would you want to compete in 14u,unless you are running?

Running from what? Their own age group? Are you really shooting your mouth off at 14 year old kids?

8th grade has always been one of the years for many wrestlers to get their first taste of high school wrestling. It is a natural progression. I have had several 8th graders (very good wrestlers)who did not make it to state at 14 & under and then they went on to have tremendous high school careers. It is what it is and currently this age group has a choice to stay in their age group or wrestle up in the high school division 14-19 year olds.

Wrestle 14 have fun!!!

Exactly...I agree 100%

Plenty of discussion on this topic in the past and rightfully so.

Many of the top wrestling states have Kids state with a High School Division. They only allow 8th graders and under in the Kids divisions. I have no problem with a high school non-placer to wrestle in the Kids divisions but firmly believe that a high school state placer and especially a high school state champion should wrestle in the high school division, like they have all year long.

I find it surprising and strange that a high school state champion would wrestle in a lower division.

I would agree on State Champions not wrestling 14U, but I am curious how many State Champions would qualify for 14U. I doubt very many State Champions are even wrestling the Kids series.

I am going to have to disagree Chief, I think that it should be left up to the kid. Why punish a 14 year old for being successful?

Furthermore, you are robbing our best 8th graders of a chance to prove themselves against high schoolers. I just think a rule like this would ruin the integrity of the 14u championships.

Yep!! Lol I think im over 100 post

We have a 14U Kids division and a High School Division. A High School wrestler in the Kids division? Talk about ruining the integrity! There is a very good reason that the top wrestling states in the country disagree with you on this Dylan.

A 14 year old that just won a High School State Championship being required to wrestle in the High School division is punishment? Why would he want to go wrestle 7th graders?

Had they made it to state, would their careers have been worse?

I think making a rule was to rigid.

I do think it is worthy to challenge some of these kids/coaches/parents that are state placer why they would wrestle 14 U. Some point people might miss is that it is for team points, and the larger teams are looking at that also. Which is another heated topic.

Beeson I think there are alot more than you think, just around my boys weigh there are 5-6.

My guess is most of those freshman wrestlers are actually 15 not 14 but it makes little difference.

Just wrestle.....Wherever, whenever, whoever....Just wrestle!!!

I think I just found the saying for the back of my wrestlers new shirts. This has now been trademarked...haha

Or...

Create a High School division for High School wrestlers. Oh yeah, we have one.

14 & under is cool!!! Go team!!!

13s wrestling 14 or 14s wrestling 18s im glad there's a choice. Not to mention those 13 will be 14 & will have the same choice next year.

You're glad that High School state placers in 10th grade choose to avoid the High School division and wrestle 7 graders?

To be clear, I'm not talking about sub 500 high school wrestlers. I'm talking about high school state placers.

I would bet there are no 10th graders still able to hit 14U.

I bet that 60 % of freshmen even qualify for 14u.

You would have lost that bet in the past. It has happened!

There may have been, but it is certainly the exception.

I would double or nothing that there are only a handful ever.

I got it if your at the top off 12 & a national champ you should have to wrestle 14 & under. And yes if you are a 14 year old 10 graider and you are with in the rules more power to ya.

I have seen high school state qualifiers not even make it out districts in 14. Sorry to burst your bubble freshman but some eighth graders are better than you! Wrestle your age. Your choice. Same as a six under choosing to do subs at 8. Some sixes better than some 8s. Want a true all class state tournament wrestle high school. Want see up coming competition. Wrestle your age. If I were an 8th grader wanting to peak in high school I would want a shot at the freshman to see how I will fair in a year.

No. You don't get it.



You won't need more power. You are a 10th grader.

I agree with the proposed change just not all of it. I think the top 4 fits that rule lots better.

5 and 6 in the right subs may never make it out. Sure steel sharpens steel but I bet 5th and 6th placer had seen plenty of steel.

I see both sides of this, it would help to improve Kansas wrestling.

I had no problem with Garrett wrestling a state placer last year he lost but so what. He was better for it. Hay state champ go ahead and wrestle 14 who cares. and your wrong I do get it.

If they change the rules cool I'll be on your side but for now do whatever your comfortable with. that and I just like to argue :-) its fun

By bringing up an example of a good 12U wrestler being forced to wrestle 14U and likening that to a High School State Champion being forced to wrestle in his own division, showed that you don't get it.

Until there is a grand state, having a high school division can truly settle who the best of the best is in the state. But there are arguements in that the wrestlers will be at different weights and conditioning levels.

Another DEAD HORSE being flogged!!!! The idea was proposed at the state body meeting and was voted down....by a large number.

If you are going to impose a rule like that then you need to do away with any special awards such as the Triple Crown because kids are not allowed to compete for it based on the age they actually are.

That is just one small impact that would effect the kids if a rule was put in place. High School state placers wrestling in the 14U division represent a very small minority of our numbers. The last thing we need is more regulations.

Shawn Budke

I am curious how many High School state champs are wrestling 14U. Anyone have a number? I have seen a few High school state placers wrestling 14U and I may not understand why, I don't really have a problem with it. I do support the decision that Freshmen and in a few cases 10th graders that wrestled varsity and were facing older more mature kids and taking some beatings are wrestling 14U. They stuck it out, took their lumps and now they have a chance to wrestle kids their own age and maturity level. They paid their dues this year. Let them get out there and have some fun where they have a better chance at success. How many of them would just stay home instead of signing up for the state series if they had to wrestle High School? Just for the record, no I do not have a freshman wrestling 14U and am justifying that with this post.

ok than the #1 ranked 12 year old national champ. Why would that be any difrent. He's sure to beet every body so he should have to wrestle up thats your argument write.

One thing to consider is that a HS wrestler never mind state placer gets in about 40 matches a season some less if JV or due to injury. Most kids wrestlers ave 20 matches before state series with most of those wrestling the same kids over and over. The exception being kids who go to National tournaments. There is also practice time involved and conditioning time that MS age kids normally don't get. There are some vast differences in making the comparison to a HS wrestler and a MS age wrestler. Now if they would allow MS age wrestlers as long a season and or offer them the opportunity to wrestle weekends that might be a different story.

Unless the child has skipped a grade it would be next to impossible for a 14 yr old to be a sophmore. The school cutoff date in Kansas is almost identical to the wrestling cutoff. Sure they may have been 14 for less than 15 days into the start of their sophmore year. Come on people we are talking about wrestling... who out there actually moves their kid ahead in school. It has been my experience that the opposite is true and we have alot of older 16 yr olds in 10th grade and quite a few 17 yr olds(just to give them the extra edge)or year of growing and maturity. My son a sophmore is only 15 and won't be 16 until summer and therefor will only be a young 16 yr old Junior next year.....should I be throwing a fit that he has to wrestle a 19 yr old senior because he is in the high school division.....Just let em wrestle . Geez!

No. When there is a high school division, that division includes only high school wrestlers. It doesn't include college wrestlers that are 18.

Kids club season is just as long if not longer than high sckool and I've herd that some clubs practices are more challenging than high school. Got that from wrestlers. And I really dont believe a good 12 year old should have to wrestle up just making a point. high school is a grind and I just dont see a problem wrestling your own age no matter what your level off wrestling is.

First of all, who is throwing a fit? Secondly, your next to impossible analogy has happened.

This is what you should be asking yourself. Why do the top wrestling states in the nation exclude High School wrestlers from entering Kids divisions? Maybe someone in their state should have tried your very compelling and thorough "Geez! Just let them wrestle" argument.

:-)

It's all good Haskins. Best wishes to your son! He has a great future ahead of him.

By removing these state placers as proposed are we creating a "watered" down 14 & under?

Is 14U watered down all year? When a high school state placer avoids the high school division to wrestle the kids division, is the high school division watered down? Has that argument swayed anyone in the Big 10 states?

Like I said next to impossible to be a 14 yr old sophmore. Name 1....?

My point is I'm not throwing a fit and this is a stupid topic. Up until a few years ago all high schools didn't even include Freshman. If a Freshman is 14 let them wrestle 14 and under if they choose. It should be a choice. I doubt many state champs in high school want to wrestle down.

Thanks its all good chief :-)

Call it what you want, if you placed at one of the three KSHSAA state tournaments and you have elected to participate in 14U then I think you have chosen a path that will not improve you as a competitor. I made the proposal and it is baffling that Club Directors, Parents, and Coaches think that it is ok to do this. The playing field is SO TILTED in favor of a HS kid that it is incredible that ANYONE can think this is good for Kansas wrestling. NO OTHER state permits this.

First of all, it's spelled sophomore. I will PM you the name.




By asking "Should I throw a fit" implied that others on this thread were.




That is the root of your logic breakdown.




Then they would not wrestle in the high school division.




Are you a Democrat? (just kidding)

bbbbbbbbbbbb

Triple Crown is ONLY avaiable to Schoolboys, Cadets, and Juniors. These divisions are different that the FLK divisions. FLK state champs from Kids or HS can qualify but then you must win Freestyle and Greco in one of the three divisions outlined. Not sure what this has to do with HS wrestlers who placed at KSHSAA state wrestling in 14U???

I will continue proposing that KSHSAA state placers not be allowed to compete in the 14U division each and every year. If you agree then you need to talk to your club director so that when we vote in the FALL they know where you stand in March. NO OTHER STATE permits HS kids to wrestle 14U.

Sorry guilty of being a shorthand texter. no I'm not a Democrat. Stupid topic because it had already been decided earlier. Yes even several Freshman would have to wrestle High school because they are already 15 and last but not least...you have to wrestle the best to be the best and I don't believe any state champ would want to wrestle down (age wise or ability) I believe in their integrity and I would hope they would wrestle to improve.

Good luck to all the boys in the next few weeks!

Do you guys really think that the last 3 weeks of wrestling matter to the High School kids? The High School division was created to let those who enjoy wrestling to continue. Your acting like Kids State is super competitive or something. Like this is going to make or break champions. For as much as I like Chief and Will, I don't understand how we can disagree so much.

But this SOPHOMORE would still be the same age as the kids he is wrestling. Sounds Fair to me, and I have a 7th grader. If he had to wrestle this Sophomore, I would welcome the opportunity. Wait that won't happen, I didn't red-shirt my 7th grader.

What about me Beeson? I wanna be friends. :-)

High school season was such a grind Garrett beat some good kids but he got beat buy alot of them. I think he may have won some in the high school division. But I wonted him to have some fun. For us thats what kids is all about. I dont think we would have done kids if he had to wrestle high school. hes already been through that grinder.

Amen Chief!!!! Keep 'em honest

Honest? What rules are they breaking? How are they being dishonest?

Okay, so by that logic, why should only high school state placers be subject to a rule like this, a JV high school wrestler is in high school so why should he get the choice to wrestle 14u while a placer doesn't? I agree that most freshman high school state champions would probably rather wrestle in the high school division, but if one were to rather wrestle 14u, and he fulfills the age requirement, then who are we to make that choice for them?

If you were to make this rule, then it shouldn't allow ANY high school wrestler, state placer or not, to compete in 14u. That I would agree with.

Doesn't matter to me one way or another. If my son ( next year makes HS state then we wrestle HS.) if not then we will have to see.
But I will give a good example of 14 vs HS. The CLASSIC, a 14u didn't place in his division, but took first in the HS division. IMOP, don't under estimate A LOT of these 8th graders, we are only talking about a 1 year difference; (for most)

All I know we're going to have some fun. Y'all can figure it out next year we wrestling 14. Geez as cheif would say lighten up people its all good..

I personally think that once high school season is over then none of the elite high school kids (state champs, placers, or qualifiers) should do the kids series. I would much rather see them take some time off. Go watch the Big Ten tournament, or the NCAA tournament. Then start training for Virginia Beach, Flo Nationals, or USA Folkstyle Nationals. And then right after that start wrestling freestyle and Greco.

I never really understood why some wrestlers who did really well in high school choose to cut weight for another 3 weeks when they could be having fun watching college wrestling and training for an even bigger tournament and getting some national exposure.

It's their choice to wrestle 14 and under, whether or not you understand it or like. I don't understand why we have to make a rule or exception.... it is based on their birthday just like every other age group.

TO EACH THEIR OWN!


Zach Campbell
316-734-6748

Really? ELITE? Roughly 50% of the kids make it to State. 37.5%(1st-6th) of these wrestlers actually place. This is far from ELITE. If they did it like they did in the "Good Ole Days" only 25%(1st-4th) would place. This is still a "C" at best, not ELITE. The Elite Wrestlers would be your State Finalists 12.5%(Not the top 10% even). If you want the Elite wrestlers, we would have to have a Grand State and the Top 6 wrestlers (10%) would be considered Elite. So....in my opinion Chief's top 6 in the All Class rankings would be the only ELITE wrestlers in the State. Everyone else is not Elite and should be allowed to wrestle in the kids series at whatever age they are.

Alright so you do agree with me that the Elite wrestlers should take some time off and not wrestle the kids series right? Or at the very least wrestle only the high school division of the kids series.

With that said I don't think you're giving Kansas wrestlers enough credit. There are plenty of kids in Chiefs rankings or out side of his ranking that could be considered Elite!

No man very few people agree with you thats why it still the way it is. Get over it

'ELITE? Roughly 50% of the kids make it to State.'

Ryan didn't wrestle 5/6A, he doesn't understand what you are talking about, 50% don't qualify in 321/4A. Not arguing they are the best, just deep.

Also, your comments are really insulting to the parents/fans/kids who believe working hard and qualifying and maybe even placing in state means anything. By your standards only 1 or 2 in each bracket really count anyway. Lets make kids qualify for regionals and then only take the top 1. Would that make you happy.

They made age divisions so kids wrestle kids their age. It shouldnt matter how good a kid is.

Why is it that you don't agree? Do you even have an opinion?

How about we look at it this way. On Intermat Kansas has 1 kid ranked out of 280 high schoolers. Same with Flo wrestling. That's pretty scary if you ask me.

Like Chief said, the top wrestling states don't allow high schoolers in the kids division at state. Kansas wrestling obviously needs to make some major changes to keep up with the rest of the country.

NOT ONE other state permits High School wrestlers to compete at Kids state. What that means is that every one of the comments that have been mentioned on this thread were found to be without merit in every single state except Kansas. We have a High School Division!

The proposal to finally acknowledge that our non-high school divisions are just that, will eventually pass.

Than change the rule that doesn't allow freshmen to take weights in high school.

I did not mean to offend anyone, but the word "elite" was used. Elite: The choice or best of a collective group. Technically only the State Champion of all classes would be considered elite. Unfortunately we do not have that option in Kansas.

What?

Just because other states do not have a High School Division, does not mean that the comments do not have merit.




The High School Division was created to allow High School wrestlers to continue wrestling for the love of the sport. It was not created to have an All Class Match Up. The High School Division was not created for the elite wrestlers, but this definately does not mean that they would be excluded. It is fun competition, mat time, and if two elite wrestlers end up wrestling at one or all three of these tournaments isn't that just a bonus. Anything that will allow kids to wrestle can not be considered bad, even if they are High School aged kids.

just wondering how long have they been trying to get this changed

My point was that those same comments have been used across the nation and by evidence that high school wrestlers are not allowed to wrestle in the Kids divisions, they were not sufficiently meritorious.

Well Anthony Capul is as good as I have ever seen. This is a great athlete who will is very dominate now and will be for years to come. very well mannered and coached by the great brawlers doug eck. cant wait to see him finish this year as state champion in his division and the next 4 years in high school at whatever he wrestles

Democrats have your way of thinking Chief, if a person is successful and works hard even the playing field by making him pay more. If a kids works hard and is successful, even the playing field by making him wrestle up an age group. Just a thought.

The executive board has voted on this issue since we changed the 16U division to HS. At the time Beeson was on the board and he was adamantly against mandating that ALL HS wrestlers wrestle the HS division and not be allowed to wrestle DOWN to the 14U KIDS classification. The vote was carried to the state body. I modified the recommendation to apply only to State placers as a compromise and I believe it passed the Executive Board without any opposition. It was shocking that 2/3 could see that allow HS state placers to wrestle against 7th and 8th graders is not how you develop and improve Kansas wrestling. As Beeson said it is about opportunity to get better. You don't get better by dropping back and dominating those who didn't get a professional coach and five day a week practices for four plus months plus a schedule of competition that was the same age or up to three years older. Wake up! There is NO DEBATE here. The question is do you want develop wrestlers or do you want to discourage our KIDS. The Zach Campbells and Chad Beesons of this topic need to agree that is what is happening even if they don't agree with the rule. At least that way they can admit they are not willing to change to improve. I have been on both ends of the spectrum here, for every Ryne Cokeley there are 20 Sammy Cokeleys. The rule as it stands today is ridiculous and every HS state placer who makes a choice to wrestle 14U should be called out. The facts have been stated and my opinion stands.

I have a step son who is in the 8th grade in the 14U div. He was just in the finals against a 15 year old H.S. state placer, or at least that was the rumor in Ottawa. My son wanted the challenge, and won in a very good match. Should he have to move up to the H.S. Div? This was his second tourny back since he quit last spring. After losing bubble match after bubble match, he felt like his hard work wasn't paying off. This match might have been what he needed to relize that it is paying off. I am not going to sit here and say I agree or disagree. My younger son who has a birthday of 12/20, wrestled 8U last year as a 9 year old and placed 4th at state. I heard few comments about that. Whatever the case may be, Yae or Nae, I don't think we will loose any wrestlers over this issue.

I coached a HS kid this weekend that is wrestling 14U and he placed at HS state and he lost to a VERY good 8th grader in the finals. Also I know that Anthony Capul wrestling for Brawlers bumped up to the HS division recently and lost to a HS State RUNNER UP 3-2. So whether or not people think that HS State placers shouldn't wrestle 14U shouldn't count some 8th graders out. I believe in good competition just as much as the next guy and think even if they place in HS that shouldn't restrict them from wrestling 14U. But with that said that is just MY OPINION and I understand those who think they shouldn't wrestle 14U as well.

If you want High Schoolers to wrestle high school division, I get that. I just don't agree that the successful have to move up because of their success. I believe that either all 14U freshman must wrestle in High School Division or none are made to. Rules need to be made based on age and grade not on success or lack there of.

Exactly. This is the only way a rule like this would make sense and be fair.

Will,
I agree with you on this issue from this perspective....there is NO debate! The issue was brought to the state body and the state body overwhelmingly disagreed with you, Chief, and others that support this issue. As far as reintroducing this issue, don't we have to wait because it takes a bylaw change and once it is voted on you can't reintroduce it for a certain amount of time? Similar to the buying cards on line issue that lost a year or so ago?

Also, USAWKS does offer a state Triple Crown award. It is for all ages for 8u and up. Your idea would limit kids opportunities who have a chance to win kids folkstyle state and compete for the Triple Crown because they placed at hs state.

I also find it ironic that most of the people on here. Arguing

I also find it ironic that a lot of people on here are the same folks that complain about limiting opportunities for kids such as travel restrictions, middle schoolers not being able to practice with clubs, etc now want to limit kids and make it "more fair" for 14u non-hs wrestlers. What is wrong with giving the 14u eighth graders a chance to compete against the hs state placers? Let those kids have a chance to compete against the best.

Just because other states don't do this doesn't make it correct. Heck, a lot of other states have a special division for private schools.....a lot of folks supporting this idea vehemently disagree with the private school separate division.

Every year on the hs board there is debate about the class system and how "easy" it is for kids to qualify for hs state and how easy it is to place at certain hs state in certain divisions. Now a lot of these same folks are concerned about an unfair advantage for these HS state placers. Which is it? You can't have it both ways.

Chief,
Please provide evidence of how you determined the best wrestling states. What organizations determined this and what criteria was used or is your response based of polls from intermat, flow, etc. which are somewhat informed opinion polls very similar to the Kansas High School rankings?

What evidence shows that not having 14U hs placers compete only in a high school division actually makes those states better at wrestling? Having a hard time following the logic on that one.

Shawn Budke

Will
You are right, your opinion stands, however, it seems you are offering a lot of opinion as fact. What evidence do you have that shows we are losing kids in 14u? That is not a fact in our club. If that is a trend somewhere how do you know that the 14u are quitting only due the fact that we are letting a handful of HS state placers wrestle in the 14U division. I can only speak factually to what I have observed in our club and that really is not an issue.

Another idea that hasn't been mentioned on this thread...why are we going to disadvantage teams that are competing for team trophies at kids state? If a kid can win state at 14U that helps a team a lot more than if he only can place in the HS division. I know some only view wrestling as an individual sport but there is a team aspect to it that you cannot discount.

My position stands.



The 8th graders are getting good competition, thus making them better. Many 8th graders welcome the challenge and step up and win. The 14U division would be watered down if we mandated all High School wrestlers to wrestle the High School Divison. It is just fine for them to wrestle their own age group.



No one is sleeping.



You're right, you just happen to be wrong by trying to debate your side.



Sounds like very few are discouraged. I would venture to say that most embrace the opportunity. This speaks volumes for our 8th graders that are welcoming the opportunity to get better.



I don't have to agree, I am willing to change to improve. I just do not think that this is the problem or the solution.

That is just how life is.



It is not ridiculous, it is how the majority feels. It is unfortunate that you are in the minority.

These are not facts. They are the opinions of a few.

And just so Cokeley knows that there are no hard feelings, I will make this promise. When KSHSAA makes private schools that can recruit and buy their teams wrestle up a class, I will advocate making State Placers wrestle the High School division instead of their age group. Don't take it too serious, I'm just having fun. Love ya Will.

My evidence includes every other state. By definition that would include the best ones.




The governing organization of every other state determined this and purposely drafted rules that don't allow HS wrestlers to wrestle in their Kids divisons.




You stated that question wrong but more importantly, are you really asking that? High School wrestlers compete the entire year against their piers and then enter a three week series against 7th and 8th graders. That is your idea of improving their skills? As I have stated many times on this thread, all of your points that you have brought up have been brought up across the nation and have been found baseless. It is basically common sense and a bit embarrassing that we are the only holdout that thinks it helps our wrestlers.

The division was not made to help our wrestlers. It was made for a venue for wrestlers to continue wrestling for fun. In the process it does make our 7th (which I have a tough time believeing, unless they are redshirted) and 8th grade wrestlers better, by giving them the opportunity to wrestle high school freshman and sophmores*(again I have a hard time believing sophomores to be 14). The best wrestlers are off doing something else, kids state does not make them better, but it does continue to promote wrestling. Chief and Will need to see it for what it is and be glad it keeps interest up. The elite who are trying to get better are doing so, somewhere else. Let it go and enjoy the fact that some of the not so elite are still interested.

"Mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself, but talent instantly recognizes genius" - Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

Chief,

You still offer no evidence....just because every state does it does not provide evidence that it makes kids better. There is a flaw in the logic of that argument.

I ask that you look at this from a different angle. You and will argue from the perspective that this rule doesn't help make the very small minority of hs state placers better (not sure that logic follows either as there is no evidence to support that). However, for the majority of kids (the U14 middle schoolers) it does make them better because it gives them the opportunity to wrestle the most experienced, practiced kids in their age group. Why should we deny them that opportunity? You and will are the one's always challenging everyone to seek the best competition and yet you want to deny the middle school 14U's the opportunity to compete against this very small number of hs state placers....don't get it.

By the way, the rule as it stands now, does not force a HS state placer that is in the 14U age group to wrestle in the 14U division. The current rule gives them the opportunity to choose 14U or HS division. This is very similar to the USAW rules for the Junior vice Cadet age divisions.

At the national level a wrestler that meets the age requirement to compete as a Cadet and is in high school can wrestle Cadet or Juniors. We as a state take advantage of that rule all the time to fill our Junior Dual team.

Given your logic and Will's reasoning then you should support the idea that kids that All American at Fargo as a first year Cadet should not be allowed to compete at Fargo as a second year Cadet if they are in high school. They should only be able to compete as Juniors because it isn't fair to the first year 8th grade Cadet to have to wrestle a returning Fargo All American that has gotten to practice with his high school team all year and compete at such a high level.

Now I say this because I no you guys would go bananas if someone tried to make that rule for Fargo. Well I don't see it as being any different with the 14U debate.

Shawn Budke

You are not quite correct. A cadet is a modified Junior. Cadets can wrestle Juniors ONLY if they are in HS. Eighth graders cannot wrestle Juniors, if they do they forgo one of their later years in Juniors as you only get four years of Junior competition.

I am all about wrestling up and I would COMPLETELY support allowing a 14U 8th grader the opportunity to wrestle the HS division if they are willing and capable. This would completely satisfy your vision but not Beesons as he believes that it should be all about age. The other thing that could fix this is to go by the USA Wrestling age cutoff, Jan 1, 20XX. This would move almost all of the 14U HS kids now into the HS division. Once you move to HS you are NO LONGER in KIDS wrestling as far as I am concerned.

BTW, Have you gotten your facts straightened out on the triple crown?

My guess is that nearly EVERY state placer who is eligible for 14U is a Cadet.

Beeson 58.9% of the kids in 5a wrestled in the state tourney.

We've been there and done that and changed to the current cut-off date!

You can not make rules to make kids or parents seek excellance. It would be great, in fact perferred if all high school state placers chose to wrestle in the high school division. It would be great if we could legislate that people have to become the best that they can. Such things can not be legislated. When making rules you must make them based on things that are concrete (age, weight, ect...). Again you can not tell a wrestler that is successful he is to be held to a higher standard because of their success. What happens to the wrestler that loses in overtime and is eliminated one match short of placing in high school state? He can wrestle 14U but the kid that beat him in OT cannot? All this rule change would do is help those that red shirt. They would get an extra year in 14U most kids would not. Just food for thought.

I guess my question for Cheif and Will would be this. Are you trying to protect the 8th graders or push the 9th graders? Either way it is not your responsibility to do so. The 9th graders must push themselves, you can't do that for them. The 8th graders don't need protection, they have wrestled kids a year older than them every other year their whole career, and next year will wrestle kids that may be up to 4 years older than them. You are not protecting them, you are weakening them.

How many of those high school kids wrestling 14 would still be wrestling if they had wrestle in the high school division? How much money would be lost if the Chang was made? My guess is thats why you can't get them to see it your way. Just a guess though

Will,

Your right there is no debate. It was voted on and your position did not pass!


What are you arguing for? In one post you want the HS Elite to take a break in another you say they aren't getting better by wrestling 14 and Under. How would they get better by taking a break. Did every kid that was successful in the past follow your plan?

Those that want to wrestle HS can, those that want to get better can, those that do not want to getter better can chose not to! Remember this is a free country!

I am against anyone being punished for their success! I am all for change to make the sport better. I do not feel that making rules that limit what one can and cannot due based on their success or failure make anyone better!

Last but not least I have the choice to not agree with you!

Zach Campbell

Wow, gonna have fun next year pulling wings off of Butterflies. Because triple crown and team points are apparently of more value than personal growth for wrestlers. Heck, I thought taking my kid to National Tournaments was a way to expose him to quality competitors. Coulda saved a ton of money and stayed home tussled with local yokels to win that coveted State Championships and called it good. Cause ya know, winning that state championship is everything. Guess I need to change my way of figuring. After seeing the HS kids clamoring to wrestle in 14U this year who am I to say it's wrong. We beat a few HS kids in last few years as a 7th & 8th grader, why not milk it for all it's worth while we are a Freshman next year. Yee haw welcome to KS

I don't think there isn't a kids on the mat that doesn't (or shouldn't) have winning a state title as a goal. Are saying that a kids state title doesn't matter?

There may be a few kids that are 14U freshman state placers that the 14U may be the only legit shot at state title ever. To say that he doesn't need it to make Kansas wrestling better is a shame. We all know that there are kids that never have that chance, and if they think this is their year even in 14U then have at it. It is within the stated rules. How many kids get 4th, 5th and 6th consecutive years? I get that is higher than 4 timers. So that 14U may be the only year to get the title. Wrestling is a individual sport.

I think Will and Chief are missing that some of these kids have busted their buts to be where they are and if they have to wretle 14U to get a state title so be it, I still bet it won't be handed to them. It will also be developing the 8th graders in that group also.

I have a 8th grader and I am sure the freshmen in his bracket will help him improve over the next few weeks, how is that different than the upperclassmen helping the freshmen that have been getting the same "developement" all year.

Bottom line if they go up they are beign developed, if they go 14U they are developing the one below. Same thing right?

Will
I don't think you got my point. I wasn't talking about 8th grade cadets wrestling up. I was talking about 9th grade cadets having the option to wrestle cadet or juniors. Exactly the same choice that our 14u 9th graders have. So given your reasoning for mandating hs state placers only wrestle hs division is the same as mandating that 9th grade cadets that all americaned the year before should have to wrestle juniors. You would flip a cookie and have a stroke if USAWKS implemented that rule.

Actually I was the one who said elite high school kids should take some time off. Yes, time off can help you get better as a wrestler. I followed my dads plan and turned out alright I think.

Not sure how 15 second pins develops anybody? Nope, I am just agreeing with everyone but pointing out the obvious hick mentality. Should State Championships be a goal, sure why not? It's just another wrestling meet with a few more wrestlers than the little meets we have. Generally all the same kids that they wrestle week in and week out with a few kids from out West mixed in to give it some pizzazz. In terms if difficulty not so much. There are upsets of course nobody wrestles their potential all the time and some rise to the occasion. It's the best we have to offer but it's weak at best. Best quote I have heard so far about this years state meet was from my own son when I told him he had a few HS kids wrestling down. "Cool, I was beginning to think state was going to be lame."

In 2011 at kids state my son was an 8th grader in14U. He placed 2nd in a bracket full of highschoolers including one HS state placer that i know of. It was a great experiance for him and gave him a little taste of what was coming the next year. I dont really believe these 8th graders need to be protected from kids only one year older than themselves. If anything i would think they would look up to the challenge of wrestling and maybe even being able to say they beat a highschooler.

That will happen with 8th grade to 8th grader and hs to hs kids.

We are used to wrestling these same kids ever other year, this year will be no different for us.

Hossus,

You call team championships, etc "hick" mentality...not sure what that means. In my post I was only trying to point out that there additional considerations other than just individually focused goals or agendas that impact a decision like this.

I still see this just the same as kids having the choice to wrestle Cadets or Juniors. We do not limit Cadets that are in high school and force them to have to wrestle Junior age group if they have placed at high school state or are a Fargo All American....why should we do it at the state level?

If anyone that supports the idea of making 14U hs state placers have to wrestle in the HS division gets on here and is willing to say they think it should change at the National level with Cadets and Juniors too then I will start to consider changing my opinion and vote. I don't think I will hear that idea supported by those folks.

Shawn Budke

Big difference. Both are in High School!

Chief,

That is not a true statement! We have a whole bunch of stud 8th graders this year that are going to be Cadets. When they go to Fargo or Regionals or Freestyle/Greco State they will compete against High School kids that still meet the age requirements to be a Cadet. If a freshman in high school meets the age requirments to be a Cadet, they have a choice. They can compete as a Cadet or as a Junior.

Given the logic you supported in earlier posts, you should support a national rule that only allows Cadets to be non-high schoolers that meet the age requirement to be a Cadet. Based on what you have stated, it would be really unfair to make the 8th grade Cadets have to wrestle these kids because they have had a year of high school practice and mat time. Just think how much more experienced the high school cadet is having wrestled at Fargo and potentially All Americaned at Fargo?

My point is that these seem very similar, if not exactly similar to me. Given that, I don't see the folks that support changing our state rule clamoring or making noise to change it at the national level.

Heck, I would even argue that if we change the rule to the way you and Will want, we are doing our first year Cadets (8th graders) a huge disservice by not letting them wrestle the really good high school state placing freshman. Thus, not helping prepare them for what they are going to see during the Freestyle/Greco season at state, regionals, and Fargo.

Shawn

"Going to be Cadets". Cadet Duals are in June. Fargo is in July. Are they not finished with their 8th grade competition?

Might be small minded, but I think winning Team Championships in Kids divisions outside of traveling All-Star teams is kinda whack. I would argue that it is lopsided for those larger teams. Small teams in little towns never have a fair chance against big towns and big clubs. Then there are a few clubs across the state who recruit kids from other clubs to try and achieve this goal. So really what is fair or honorable about any of that. Were talking about the have's and the have nots basically.

Outside of HS and kids traveling teams, your kids teams are really about individual accomplishments. Not saying being a part of kids team is a bad thing at all, lots of good reasons for being on a good team. Just the whole idea of winning something that is based more on your geography and population and not on performance is not my idea of a lofty goal. Why do you think we have 4 different HS classifications for wrestling. Geography/population...

Also with FS/GR you basically have a small gene pool of crazy people who think wrestling season should be 9 months long and will drive across the country to find that one dude in their weight class who feels the same way. It's good stuff, but not many people do it. So kinda back to the have and the have nots on that. I like the All-Star travelling team thing as it helps make it affordable, but locally it is kinda expensive for most people. Due to the low numbers you get accustomed to the idea of having to wrestle like your in HS as the competition can be pretty scarce. Also since we end Folkstyle so late, everyone else in the country is about done with the season once we get fired up. It's not fair mind you, it just is what it is.

I am more interested in how KS kids perform outside the rectangle of KS rather than inside. I hate the thought of kids getting caught up and coached into the idea that if they win state in KS then your at the pinnacle of your sport. If find it odd that out of the thousands of kids who sign up and wrestle in this state that only a 100 or maybe less actually leave the borders to go on their own to do bigger things. Money can't be the only reason, must be coaches telling parents it's not a good thing is my only experience with that. Even more appalling to me is that some clubs do not allow their wrestlers to go anywhere else accept where the club is going that week. Crazy power trip weird if you ask me. If we had done that my kid would have gotten 8 matches a year and likely against the same two other kids, where is the benefit in that??

I look at it this way. We are Kansans and I support that way above any club. I am more concerned about our kids getting recognized by other states rather than by other local clubs. I want college recruiters to look long and hard at KS kids as being hard working, dedicated and outstanding athletes. I feel we get overlooked because we internalize the importance of being winners at home rather than without.

Chief we have 8th graders right now that are cadets. Any kid born in 1998 is a cadet. That means as of Jan 1,2013 those kids are cadets not "going to be cadets". Also, whehter you agree with rule or not, using your thought process, just because they finished 8th grade 2 weeks before cadet duals and a month before Fargo doesn't give the experience that the kids who have wrestled 5 days a week in a high school program. That was one of the arguments made as to why HS state placers should have to wrestle in the hs division. You are splitting hairs here trying to justify your position. The concept is the same for both situations.

So the Cadets on the topside should wrestle as JR's at those to meet if they are from Kansas.

Same thing right?

Hossus,

I don't necessarily disagree with you however, as long as the USAWKS offers team placings and team trophies we have to take that into account when making decisions that can impact a team's chance of winning that. You can disagree with the idea all you want but from an organizational change perspective we have to look at all the factors and weigh the pros and cons. I originally just threw that out there because it is a factor that nobody had mentioned.

As far as the point about clubs only allowing kids to wrestle where the club is going....you bring a valid perspective. I would offer some other ideas as to why a club may have that rule...If a club has 100 wrestlers and a limited amount of coaches then the club as an organization has to determine how to divide its resources (ie the coaching staff). Some clubs make that rule because of that, not because they are on a power trip. Other clubs make that rule to promote a concept of team unity. A lot of folks don't agree with that idea and see kids wrestling as an individual sport...others disagree. Not a power trip, just a different perspective and apportach. Along with that I have seen clubs that have that rule but they tell the wrestlers and parents that if they want to go to a different tournament then they can....just don't expect to have club coaches there to coach them. A lot of times it then becomes the parents who get upset because the club won't send 1 coach to coach 1 kid at a separate tournament.

Who's right, who's wrong....neither. They are just different organizational approaches to coaching a team.

Shawn,

Except, your average 14U Kansas 8th grade wrestler is NOT wrestling cadets, almost EVER. Lets approach this from the greater good perspective instead of the special few.

Shawn,

You keep switching gears. You first say you are not talking about 8th graders but 9th grade successful cadets being forced to wrestle juniors. Then you bring up 8th grade cadets. To be clear, 8th grade cadets cannot wrestle in the junior division without losing a year of junior eligibility. Also, your example used AA Cadets being forced to wrestle up. If an 8th grade cadet achieved AA status, he would then be a high school wrestler the following year so your reasoning breaks down. They would then be high school vs high school. This whole discussion involves high school wrestlers that avoid their own division to wrestle the kids division. The entire nation is against it. Do you feel lonely out on that limb? As I said earlier, in my opinion the proposal will pass soon and our high school division will be the beneficiary.

I can guarantee this proposal will not pass, EVER. The High School Division will be dropped before this proposal passes.

Let's go a step further... If you're a middle school champ you can't wrestle 12u (even with a good birthday) you have to wrestle 14u. If you have placed at Tulsa and are nationally ranked in 10u, 8u, or 6u you have to wrestle up at least one age division during the USAWKS series. Come on man! This is America let's have small government and let folks choose. The rules/Bilaws are voted on each year stop bitching! It is what it is.....

Any body wanna buy a boat?

lol

What kind of madness is going on here? We are talking about high school wrestlers not being able to wrestle DOWN in the kids division. There are age group kids classes and there is a high school division.

It's embarrassing that every single state in America disagrees with us on this.

Are we having fun yet with this thread?

You have to use age groups - period. There are some 9th graders that are 15 & 16. In a few cases there are some 8th graders that can not wrestle in the 14 & under division. It does happen. They never made 14 year olds wrestle in the 16 & under division back in the day - that was not that long ago. The ultimate decision is up to the parents and the wrestler base on the current rules that have been established. That is the way I see it. 8th grade is the toughest transition for wrestlers - except the transition from high school to college wrestling. It is called attrition.
Every sport starts out with large numbers when the kids are younger. As the level of competition increases the number of participants decreases. FACT
 

at·tri·tion
[uh-trish-uhn] Show IPA

noun
1.
a reduction or decrease in numbers, size, or strength: Our club has had a high rate of attrition because so many members have moved away.

2.
a wearing down or weakening of resistance, especially as a result of continuous pressure or harassment: The enemy surrounded the town and conducted a war of attrition.

3.
a gradual reduction in work force without firing of personnel, as when workers resign or retire and are not replaced.

Tracy,
You got the concept of what I was trying to say.

Chief,
We are talking past each other. I am trying to explain that the situation we have at the state level with 14u and high school division is very similar if not exactly the same as the situation at the national level with the cadet and junior age groups.

1. At the national level a kid is a cadet if he was born in 1997 and/or 1998. Some of those kids are 8th graders and some of those kids are high school freshman.
2. Kids that are in high school and are born in 1997, 1996, 1995, etc are in the are in the junior division.
3. As you can see in both the cadet and junior division the kids that are born in 1997 and in high school can wrestle in the cadet division or the junior division. They have a choice.
4. At Fargo the kids born in 1997 and in high school are cadets. They will wrestle 8th graders that were born in 1997 or 1998.
5. USAW does not have any special rules that limit the cadets that are in high school from wrestling in the cadet age group. They don't care that those cadets have had a year of high school wrestling. They don't care if they placed at state or if the had All Americaned previously at Fargo.

Now for our situation in KS....
1. Our current policy for kids that meet the age requirement to wrestle in the 14U age group and are in high school have the choice to wrestle in the high school division or the 14U age division.
Implementing the bylaw change that you, Will and others would limit the choice of those very small number of kids that placed at high school state and meet the age requirements to wrestled the 14U division.
In my opinion doing this is no different than if USAW implemented a similar rule that made all cadets who are in high school, placed at their state high school tournament, or placed at Fargo the year before wrestle in the Junior division and didn't allow them to wrestle Cadet.
Nobody would support that and I would bet that you and Will would be two of the loudest voices on here saying how stupid it is and how it is limiting kids, etc.
If I am wrong and you support something like that at the national level then I will not argue with you anymore and I will agree to respectively disagree with you.

Shawn Budke

Hey! I should have called Seybold and Pursel to wrestle at high school state again this year! They are only 18.

Except they don't meet one of the criteria....they are no longer in high school.

Now we agree. The high school wrestlers are no longer in the kids divisions.

Chief Renegade
Member

Registered: November, 20 2003
Posts: 8019
Loc: Matside Originally Posted By: smokeycabin
You have to use age groups - period.


Hey! I should have called Seybold and Pursel to wrestle at high school state again this year! They are only 18.
_________________________
Eric Johnson

www.scienceprovesit.com

Acts 4:12
Eric,

I wonder sometimes

2009 Tournament Results
click here for complete results

14 & Under - 100
1st Place - Bo Pursel of Leavenworth Co Wrestling Club
2nd Place - Tommy Williams of STA Wrestling Club
3rd Place - Jace Roy of Paola Wrestling Club
4th Place - Michael Helms of Ark City
5th Place - Jason Perez of Ulysses Tigers
6th Place - Kasey Biddle of Central

14 & Under - 105
1st Place - Aaron Seybold of Crawford County Crew
2nd Place - Wyatt Villers of Ark City
3rd Place - Bryce Dakin of Emporia Kids Wrestling Club
4th Place - Josh Langstaff of Mulvane
5th Place - Calvin Ochs of Hoxie
6th Place - A.J. Hurtado of Greater Gold GC

No high school division that year Sean 14 and 16 and under..

Kevin Seybold

Kevin,

I understand that. But they did not have to wrestle up to 16 - correct.

USA Wrestling - Kansas Kids
State Folkstyle Results
March 24-25, 2007

13 & 14 (born after Aug 31, 1991 and before Sept 1, 1993)
110 1st Ryne Cokeley Paola
2nd Derrick Weller Piper
3rd Symon Seaton Bonner Springs
4th Garrett Jones Winfield
5th Logan Singular Clay County
6th Kasey Lien Salina

Why don't we all be honest about what is really going on here...

There are a group of folks that want the kids season to end earlier and they want to work towards some form of a high school aged Grand State.

You can't get there from here if high schoolers are involved in the kids state series. So the first step was eliminate the 16U division and create a high school division.
The second step was to create a USAWKS sanctioned 6U state.

The following steps have yet to come to fruition. If we can create a bylaw to not allow hs wrestlers to wrestle 14U then it becomes easier to create a separate kids state series that could include the 6U but not high schoolers.
After that it becomes easier to create a USAWKS sponsored grand state for high schoolers a week or so after high school states.

Will if I missed anything please fill in the mistakes.
I only bring this up becauseI can't believe that a few of the people I know and respect feel so strong and react so emotionally to this 14U/HS debate. Also, I find it pretty offensive when I hear these folks making blanket statements about kid ducking competition and running.

I do agree with Beeson.....I don't think this will pass if it is brought to the state body....AGAIN!
Shawn Budke

The rules have not changed. Was that your point Smokey?

Chief
I think you may be the one twisting words and bouncing around now. Still no answer on if you would support a similar national rule for cadets and juniors.

There were 56 KSHSAA State Champs this year in the 4 divisions.

If they all showed up at kids state 42 would not be state champs in the kids division. Same holds true for all the placers. In some cases they would not even make it to state.

Juniors can't wrestle in the Cadet division in 50 states.

High School guys can't wrestle in the Kids division in 48 states.

Enjoyed the talk you guys. I'm just killing time till Denver!

Carry on...

BINGO....EXACTLY....and not just because you agree with Beeson.

Chief
You are right....Juniors can't wrestle in the Cadet division. However, a lot of Cadets can wrestle in the Junior division. All the have to do is be born in 1997 or 1998 and be in high school. Just like the high school freshman that meet the 14U age requirements in KS.
You twisted words again.

The easy solution to get 14 yr old HS kids out of the kids series is to change the age divisions to grades.
Kindergarten and Under (6U)
1st - 2nd grade (8U)
3rd - 4th grade (10U)
5th - 6th grade (12U)
7th - 8th grade (14U)
9th - 12th (HS)
Problem solved.

Sounds good, but what about red-shirted kids, 15 year old that is an 8th grader, where would he fall? The 7th and 8th grade division? The way it is now, this would be High School no questions asked. This plan would cause more problems.

I don't see a problem that needs to be solved.

Age doesn't matter. It's grade only. Just like some on this forum they could be in the same division for 3 or 4 yrs. 😀

FACTS:

1. All 9th graders in KS are NOW HS wrestlers.
2. HS wrestlers are coached by a professional coaching staff.
3. HS wrestlers practice 4 to 6 times per week starting the second week in November.
4. HS wrestlers compete against HS wrestlers which range in age from 14 to 19 years of age from the first week in December through the last week in February.
5. HS wrestlers have the opportunity to compete for a KSHSAA state championship in either 321a, 4a, 5a or 6a.
6. HS wrestlers do NOT compete against MS wrestlers.
7. No 8th grader in Kansas has all of these opportunities.
8. No other state offers a USA sanctioned Folkstyle state tournament allowing HS wrestlers to compete against wrestlers in Kids wrestling (many due to the fact that kids season is ended before HS has finished.)
9. The USA Wrestling date of birth cutoff is ALWAYS January 1 for ALL USA National events. There is NEVER a case where a Cadet is allowed to wrestle down in the Schoolboy division in ANY style.

You tell me where any of these FACTS add up to it being okay for a high school freshman to compete against 7th and 8th graders for a KIDS state title?

The 15 year old red shirt would have to wrestle HS. Really, change the dob to January 1. Use the USA wrestling age groups and rules and get away from this modified crap.

In the solution above it would be easy though, you tell the 15 year old he has to wrestle in the HS division. They are the EXCEPTIONS and our rules are aimed at the majority.

I didn't recommend the elite take a break.

7th and 8th graders should not be punished for their inability to have four months of HS practice and competition with a professional coaching staff. 8th graders don't have an opportunity to compete for a HS state championship. This is if for them. Honestly, this is going to seem harsh but your comment that I am trying to punish wrestlers because of their success is about the dumbest comment I have seen on this forum. Sorry, just calling it like I see it. They get two shots at winning a state title in Folkstyle and way better preparation. We are punishing the 7th and 8th graders by letting the HS kids move DOWN to wrestle them. I understand your interpretation but the rule to eliminate state placers was a compromise. I don't feel that ANY HS wrestlers should be allowed to wrestle 14U.

I see it as opportunity not punishment. The freshmen have wrestled better competition all year and gotten better, let the 8th graders do the same for three weeks. One year of wrestling 14U is not going to make or break any careers. Most High School Freshman wrestled 14U, that's all they had, and they all turned out fine.

One quick question for Chief, and I have not researched this, but....Doesn't Oklahoma have a 15U Division? This would put Freshmen and Sophomores against 7th and 8th graders. This would now bring the count to 2 states that allow this to happen. With a little research we may find more.

Texas is odd years of age 7,9,11,13,15 so that would mean a 15U freshmen or possibly a sophmore would be wrestling a 8th grader depending on the birthdate but very probable.

Texas isn't probably considered a powerhouse but it does narrow the list to no one to at least 2 now.

Both of these examples won't help you out Tracy. They have their state tournaments while HS is still wrestling. You won't find wrestlers



Sent from my iPhone in both. Sorry. Some of the 7th and 8th will be subject to elimination from encountering a HS wrestler therefore not getting three more weeks.

Both State Tournaments may be going on, but those who got beat out or were not on varsity will still be wrestling in the Kids State Tournaments.

Show us the data. Names and teams. I don't think you are correct.

I am one for letting the kids/coaches/families choose if they want to wrestle either 14u or HS. But if we are going to regulate which one they can wrestle. I feel it needs to be clear cut, Not saying if you placed in HS you have to wrestle HS. It is called HS division for a reason if you are in HS you wrestle that division. If you are not you wresle 14U. I have enjoyed seeing this division go from 16U to HS, we have had some juniors and seniors over the years do well at kids state, and they have beat some good kids, in return this has helped them get some notice from some small colleges that may still be trying to fill some spots.

Insted of trying to Chang what the majority of the people like why not have your own grand state you could invite the top 8 from all the classes and have 32 man brackets. I think you should go for it we mite be intrested next year

That makes sense.

I guess my main problem is with "placer" I can see 1st and 2nd maybe even 3rd and 4th. But when you get down to 5/6th how much higher of level are they than the kids they beat to get into the medal round. (asuming they are a freshmen) What are those matches 50/50 sometimes? So we have a kids that could be just as good as the 5th and 6th place kids that could wrestle 14U under the proposed rule.

Why stop at 6th place, if you make it to HS state you have to wrestle HS in kids?

I personally have not looked anything up yet. BUT...I received 3 text messages saying I was correct and that these people found 15U Oklahoma State Champions on High School Rosters. Shouldn't be too hard to verify, I just don't have time right now.

FACT-unfortunately NOT ALL highschool kids are coached by professional coaches 5 days a week....some highschool programs simply are coached by a teacher with very little wrestling experience at all! I for one would take my sons former kids club coaches over the current wrestling coach any day!

Tulsa Nationals, The Kickoff, Reno, all of these tournaments have the 15U division where High School Freshmen and Sophomores wrestle 7th and 8th graders. Over 35 States attend these events, so apparently not EVERYONE thinks that it is wrong. People actually attend these tournaments to get better and seek out competition.

Beeson,

Those are NOT state tournaments. They are national events and all run by Jack Roller not USA Wrestling. Give up, you are not going to change my mind and you are not going to find any crack in my list of facts. Furthermore, you will NOT find ANY HS state placers wrestling at TN as it is held during the HS season so you have once again placed a statement on here without doing your research. Where are those facts to back up your other claim? BTW, even if HS wrestlers compete in 15U state in OK, they are NOT HS state placers! OK also offers a MS State tournament sanctioned by their governing body.

Your opinion...Every HS team is coached by a paid professional that is registered with KSHSAA as either a Rule 10 coach or a contracted employee of the school. It appears to me that you want to insult the HS coaches in Kansas with this statement. Be careful. Oh, I guess you don't have to because no one has any idea who you are or what HS your kids will attend.

I totally agree with you. That was how the HS division was orginally set up. Beeson led the charge to allow the choice. I didn't agree with him then and I don't agree with him now.

Kennedy Monday wrestled for Stillwater High School and wrestled Tulsa National. Anybody know how he did at State?

Here are the FACTS: There is an agenda to get the High School and 16U division thrown out of kids. The only way to do this was to Create a High School Division. Eliminating the 16U Divison. Now lets weaken the 14U divison by taking out the best wrestlers. This also weakens the High School Division beacause not as many 14U want to wrestle High School. Numbers for High School are down so lets get rid of it. 14U is thrilled because they are the top dog now. Numbers for 14U go up, this must be a good thing.

Will, why did you compromise to begin with? What was your main goal to add High School wrestling to kids? I think we would all like to hear it from you.

Beeson led the charge because he thought it was what was best for the sport. You don't have to agree, but the majority of the state does. I don't know why I keep arguing, this will never pass anyways.

True

FACTS:

1. All 9th graders in KS are NOW HS wrestlers.
2. HS wrestlers are coached by a professional coaching staff.
3. HS wrestlers practice 4 to 6 times per week starting the second week in November.
4. HS wrestlers compete against HS wrestlers which range in age from 14 to 19 years of age from the first week in December through the last week in February.
5. HS wrestlers have the opportunity to compete for a KSHSAA state championship in either 321a, 4a, 5a or 6a.
6. HS wrestlers do NOT compete against MS wrestlers.
7. No 8th grader in Kansas has all of these opportunities.
8. No other state offers a USA sanctioned Folkstyle state tournament allowing HS wrestlers to compete against wrestlers in Kids wrestling (many due to the fact that kids season is ended before HS has finished.)
9. The USA Wrestling date of birth cutoff is ALWAYS January 1 for ALL USA National events. There is NEVER a case where a Cadet is allowed to wrestle down in the Schoolboy division in ANY style.

You tell me where any of these FACTS add up to it being okay for a high school freshman to compete against 7th and 8th graders for a KIDS state title?[/b]
So here we go....

2. Define professional coaching staff. If you are defining by having paid coaches then there are a lot of clubs that have professional coaching staffs. In fact, depending on how you define professional, some could argue that a lot of club teams have more professional coaching staffs than a lot of high school programs based on time committed to sef development, involvement in the sport of wrestling, experience, resume's etc. In fact, schools are much more limited on the level of "professional" coach they can hire due to the fact they usually have to ensure it is a teacher (I know, not necessarily true for private schools, just us folk in public schools).

3. 7th and 8th grade wrestlers are not restricted by all of the KSHSAA rules that you rant about on the high school forum. They can practice 7 times a week if they choose. They can go to camps, they can get private training. In fact they have a lot more opportunity when they are wrestling for their club than kids do when they are under the KSHSAA rules in hs or ms wrestling.

Some high school wrestlers do compete agains middle school wrestlers when they are in Cadet age group.

9. Irrelevant useless point. Nobody has used that example.

Again, get on the national talk forums and appeal to USAW to change the Cadet age and requirements to something similar to what you are proposing for us in KS and I will quit arguing with you.

Will's quote: I don't feel that ANY HS wrestlers should be allowed to wrestle 14U.

So are you saying you will not let Sammy wrestle Cadets at Fargo when he is a Freshman? He may have to wrestle an 8th grader that is in the Cadet age divsion that hasn't benefited from all the stuff you listed above. Personally, I will let Brock wrestle Cadets as a freshman and understand he will wrestle some 8th graders. In fact I a looking forward to him wrestling Cadets this year as an 8th grader and can't wait for him to get a chance to compete against some high schoolers.

What I really don't understand is where you are coming from on this. Of all people you are usually the one pushing kids and pushing the rules to make things less restrictive and encourage more opportunities to go and seek the best competition. I feel like we are living in a different world right now with your perspective on this.

Also, you can provide specific rebuttals to my other post and I invited them however, at least publically acknowledge that conceptually the breaking up of kids state and getting it over sooner was something you have been trying to influence for years. We talked about what I laid out over 3-4 years ago.

Bottomline: Will is still a good friend and I would do anything for him (accept support this proposal). He does a lot for wrestling and I greatly appreciate these healthy debates we have.

Shawn Budke

Will,

If you are only defining "professional" coaches in that they are paid then we have clubs that have "professional" coaches that the middles school kids can go to.

I think you are really narrowing the definition of "professional" just to fit your argument. There is much more to being a professional in anything other than just being paid. In fact if you research the definition of "professional" or profession you will find that most high school coaches probably wouldn't qualify as a "professional" coach because most of them are professional educators who get paid a pretty small stipend to coach wrestling on the side. They are guys that love the sport and don't do it for the money. We have a lot of club coaches that love the sport but do it for the money.

Nice. Like where your going with this :-)

Kennedy NOT Kenny. Kennedy was a freshman for Stillwater this year. Kenny wrestled for Tulsa.

I'm not sure what your even trying to say here. It's no secret that I lost to Akin, and I can think of alot worse people to lose to. What I said is that after getting my butt handed to me all year in High School and going 12-13 it was nice to wrestle 14U have some success and win a State Championship. I still had some close matches and it was a competitive tournament.

2. Define professional coaching staff. If you are defining by having paid coaches then there are a lot of clubs that have professional coaching staffs. In fact, depending on how you define professional, some could argue that a lot of club teams have more professional coaching staffs than a lot of high school programs based on time committed to sef development, involvement in the sport of wrestling, experience, resume's etc. NOT CLUB IS PRACTICING 6 OR 7 DAYS A WEEK. 90% OF THE CLUBS PRACTICE 2 OOR 3 TIMES A WEEK. THE HS PRACTICE SITUATION IS MUCH DIFFERENT AND MORE CONVENIENT FOR THE HS WRESTLERS. In fact, schools are much more limited on the level of "professional" coach they can hire due to the fact they usually have to ensure it is a teacher (I know, not necessarily true for private schools, just us folk in public schools). RULE 10 COACHES ARE HIRED BY PUBLIC SCHOOLS QUITE OFTEN SO THAT IS NOT TRUE.



3. 7th and 8th grade wrestlers are not restricted by all of the KSHSAA rules that you rant about on the high school forum. THEY ARE IF THEY WRESTLE MS WRESTLING. They can practice 7 times a week if they choose. They can go to camps, they can get private training. In fact they have a lot more opportunity when they are wrestling for their club than kids do when they are under the KSHSAA rules in hs or ms wrestling. NO CLUB PRACTICES 7 TIMES A WEEK. GIVE ME A BREAK. YOU ARE REALLY REACHING SHAWN. ON TOP OF THAT THERE ARE NOT ANY HS KIDS PRACTICING WITH THE CLUBS SO THEY ARE ONLY WRESTLING OTHER 7TH AND 8TH GRADERS. YOU KNOW THE PRACTICES ARE DIFFERENT IN MANY WAYS.

Some high school wrestlers do compete agains middle school wrestlers when they are in Cadet age group. I AM SPECIFICALLY TALKING ABOUT THE THREE WEEK KANSAS KIDS FOLKSTYLE STATE SERIES SHAWN. DON'T TWIST THIS! ALSO, CADETS ARE DEFINED BY A DIFFERENT DOB CUTOFF.

9. Irrelevant useless point. Nobody has used that example.
TOTALLY RELEVANT IF YOU ARE GOING TO USE THE CADETS IN YOUR ARGUEMENT. THE CHANGE IN THE DOB WOULD ELIMINATE NEARLY ALL OF THE HS 14U COMPETITORS.

Again, get on the national talk forums and appeal to USAW to change the Cadet age and requirements to something similar to what you are proposing for us in KS and I will quit arguing with you. COMPLETELY DIFFERENT TOPIC. YOU ARE TWISTING THIS ARGUEMENT.

Will's quote: I don't feel that ANY HS wrestlers should be allowed to wrestle 14U. IN THE KANSAS KIDS STATE SERIES!!!

So are you saying you will not let Sammy wrestle Cadets at Fargo when he is a Freshman? He may have to wrestle an 8th grader that is in the Cadet age divsion that hasn't benefited from all the stuff you listed above. Personally, I will let Brock wrestle Cadets as a freshman and understand he will wrestle some 8th graders. In fact I a looking forward to him wrestling Cadets this year as an 8th grader and can't wait for him to get a chance to compete against some high schoolers. I AM NOT SAYING THIS AT ALL. I AM SAYING ONCE YOU ARE IN HS WRESTLING YOU SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO WRESTLE DOWN TO 14U TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE DIFFERENCE IN THE PRACTICE AND COMPETITION YOU HAVE BEEN EXPOSED TO DURING THE PAST FOUR MONTHS THAT GIVES YOU AN ADVANTAGE OVER THE GENERAL POPULOUS OF 14U FOLKSTYLE WRESTLERS. GEEZE SHAWN.

What I really don't understand is where you are coming from on this. Of all people you are usually the one pushing kids and pushing the rules to make things less restrictive and encourage more opportunities to go and seek the best competition. I feel like we are living in a different world right now with your perspective on this.

Also, you can provide specific rebuttals to my other post and I invited them however, at least publically acknowledge that conceptually the breaking up of kids state and getting it over sooner was something you have been trying to influence for years. We talked about what I laid out over 3-4 years ago. I ANSWERED YOUR POST.

Bottomline: Will is still a good friend and I would do anything for him (accept support this proposal). He does a lot for wrestling and I greatly appreciate these healthy debates we have.

Shawn Budke

Another interesting FACT. Joe Smith, son of NCAA Champion, World Champion and Olympic Champion, John Smith won an Oklahoma Jr. High State Championship (7th-9th) AND a High School State Championship (9th-12th) in 2012. John, as a father and a paid professional coach for OSU, apparantly did not see anything wrong with his Freshman wrestling 7th and 8th graders. His son was able, because of his age, to win both State Championships. I see nothing wrong with this. Will and Chief, what are your thoughts?

Joe's opponent and runner-up, Boo Lewallen, also wrestled both divisions. Boo placed 2nd at both High School and Jr. High State. Their Age Group allowed them to do both.

Were the kids ducking competition? Obviously NOT. Were they out trophy hunting? I doubt it. Were they just wrestling their age group? Of Course, in both cases. Should they be called out? WILL? CHIEF?

John Smith is a very successful wrestler, coach, and ambassador for our sport. I am more than happy to follow his lead. I only need for this proposal to fail one more time since Jake will be in 14U next year and I would hate for it to get watered down.

Will, you know me better than to think that I will hide and let this pass without a fight. Watering down a division is not the answer, just ask John Smith.

I farted

Here is what I have observed in our club and info gathered from talking with other coaches and club directors....
1. We are not losing 14U participants because they have high school kids in their weight classes now.
2. I think we would have less young high schoolers wrestling in the kids state series and thus practicing by forcing them to wrestle a high school division.

Now down to the brass tacts....last year there were 15 kids that met the criteria and had to make a choice to wrestle 14U or high school. So we are going to change a bylaw for 15 kids.....really?
I know, that is 15 7th or 8th graders that could have gone to state in their place. Well life is hard. They haven't gotten that kind of pampering before and they aren't going to get it ever again. This is starting to sound a lot like everyone gets a medal mentality to me.

I will concede that most clubs don't practice as much as high school teams. However, when people constantly argue on here about rules that limit kids from opportunities that expose them to tougher competition..... Such as not being able to go to the Cliff Keen KickOff when wrestling in Middle School, HS teams having travel limits, etc and now they get on here and want to emplaced limits in order to water down competition I don't get it.
Kids in club wrestling have waaaay more opportunities to pursue tough competition, individual training sessions, etc than high schoolers. That is a fact. Now some don't take advantage of it, others can't afford it, etc. those are all irrelevant arguments from an organizational perspective. From an organizational perspective the opportunities exist and you have the choice to take advantage of them.

Bottom line is that we are talking about changing a bylaw for an extreme minority of the kids wrestling population. This does not make sense to me.

Here are some facts without the questionable definition of words (ie. professional coaches)

1. 26 9th graders placed at HS state this year.
2. 12 in 6A
5 in 5A
5 in 4A
4 in 321A
3. 12 placed in the 106 weight.
4. 2 placed 1st both in 6A neither are wrestling Kids
5. 3 placed 2nd one wrestling Kids in HS division
6. 6 placed 3rd 2 are wrestling 14U 1 in HS division
7. 6 placed 4th 3 are wrestling 14U 2 in HS division
8. 5 placed 5th 1 is wrestling HS division
9. 4 placed 6th 1 is wrestling HS division
10. Only 5 kids that placed at HS state are wrestling in 14U and none of them were finalists.
11. This topic has been debated for over a week and we are talking about 5 kids that placed 3rd, and 4th at HS State.

My question is this.... Do we really need to call these kids out, or make rule changes for these 5 kids? Is it not a bigger problem, that kids that place at 6U and 8U state this year, and their parents will have the nerve to enter them in open tournaments on Saturdays and Novice tournaments on Sundays next year and use the excuse of mat time. Which is the real evil???? Just food for thought.

Just a few more facts....

13 kids that qualified for HS state this year at 106 did not place in 14U last year.....

2 HS state qualifiers at 106 this year did not qualify for 14U state last year (they were eliminated at 14U districts)....

Some High School wrestlers that are wrestling 14U this year are wrestling in weights classes that do not exist in HS Division (guess we could make them wrestle up a couple of weight classes to wrestle HS division).....

6 HS state qualifiers in 106 this year will meet at 14U state this year at 110( If they can get past some 8th graders)....

Just an fyi on some interesting happenings elsewhere. Pa is eliminating the 14 under division from kids state. As of next year they will hold a junior high state championship on its own at the conclusion of the junior high season. It will be run just like the high school state tournament. This is believed to make a true state tournament for the junior hidgh kids. Freshman will have the option of wrestling highschool or junior high. The kids state tournament will be a stand alone tournament for 8under 10 under and 12 under only no junior high wrestlers allowed to compete

Mike pirl

Mike, that would be great for Kansas. The problem is we can't even get wrestling in all of the Middle Schools. Of the Middle Schools that have wrestling, we can not get them to agree on a season, let alone coming together for a State Championship. It would be nice, but some of these poor 8th graders would still have to wrestle 9th graders. That just won't do.

Mike,

Certainly sounds like a step forward for PA. Agree with Beeson though, we are way to disorganized to do that. Would def be an advantage to setting up those travelling teams for duals and add some legitimacy to actually wrestling on MS Teams.

I completely understand it is horrible for 8th graders to wrestle freshmen. You dont have that problem in high school. Oh crap wait my freshmen or sophmore could wrestle a senior? Oh thats it im petitioning right now for state tournament, dual matches, weekend tournaments and tulsa nationals go by grade only freshmen vs freshmen. Its the only fair way to do it

Mike pirl

Why is this such a big deal? 8 is 8 14 is 14! your age is your age deal with it and just wrestle!

2011 kids state 14u 135# 8th gr placed 2nd,140# 8th gr placed second,145# 8th gr placed 1st ,150# 8th gr placed 2nd,155# 8th gr placec 2nd. Thats just the kids i know of with out research. I guess im just wondering where all this highschool advantange went this particular year. All these wrestlers went on to win kids state as highschool freshman in 2012.

I suggested this about 20 posts before. Except in Ks ALL fr are now in HS. There would be no need to give an option. In fact, fr are not allowed to compete in the Ms national duals so they should be completely excluded. You could create a cadet and junior divisions instead of just HS. Suggested this several times as well. One thing is certain. Without change there can be no improvement and Kansas needs to improve.

Just totally overlook the Facts that were presented concerning John Smith. Totally overlook the Facts presented by bradbee. Totally overlook the Facts presented by tryingtobesilent. Totally overlook the common sense comment by teamphelps. I am assuming you are overlooking these comments and facts because they can not be disputed and make your proposal look silly. It is easy to argue and debate emotions, "it's unfair" and "boo hoo". Not as easy to debate facts.

Your right Cokeley, Kansas wrestling is in the toilet right now because we can not force five kids to wrestle up an age group. And you might want to check your own backyard before you start trying to clean up anybody elses.

Those are NOT USA wrestling events you have sited in your case Chad. Sorry... Those are OSHSA events. By the way, my backyard is clean. He is NOT wrestling. HS kids CANNOT wrestle in the Middle School National Duals so if we are to have a USA Official Middle School class HS kids would have to wrestle HS. I would tell John to his face that I think it is stupid for a HS State Champion to wrestle in the MS state tournament. John himself has stated that OK wrestling has been on rapid decline for the past five years. Maybe this is why?

Hopefully the reason there are only a few stragglers left in 14U that wrestled HS is due to the shame they should feel for doing so. If there are only a few left then lets clean it up!

Will,

I believe what Beeson meant by look in your own backyard... the highest placed kid at HS state that is also wrestling in 14U kids series is from your team at St. James.

Also why are we so down on Kansas wrestling? Aren't there several Kids from Kansas wrestling in the NCAA Divison 1 Championships? Haven't we had several win or place well in other college divisions this year?

By the way the numbers say most of the HS placers are being run out of the Kids series not moving them up.... Is this the goal? To shame kids from participating in the Kids series? Over half of all 9th graders that placed at HS state are sitting this year out of the kids series....

NO SHAME HERE PALL!!!

Freshman placers not even wrestling kids is a shame, but maybe even sadder is the number of other HS state placers that arent wrestling kids. Lack of stones, spring break obligations, 5 weeks into baseball season, who knows why? Maybe the parents are just tired of the food Nazis.

And while we are on the subject, which brings more shame to the wrestling community....

A. 14 year old (that was good enough to place at HS state) wrestling a 14, or maybe a 13 year old in the USAWKS state series.

B. 14 year old sitting at home watching tv, eating pop-tarts, and enjoying some Face Book time.

C. A kid taking a redshirt year before they reach HS. =)

Now I'll go back into my hole intil we start on the annual private/public school "debate".

In order of severity: C, B, A. B is hurting the sport more than anything, and C is just wrong.

Will I understand your perspective but I do not see how this bylaw change will improve Kansas wrestling. You have shown no linkage or evidence as to how freshman wrestling in 14U makes Kansas worse in wrestling.

The argument that other states don't do it doesn't fly. There are too many other reasons that contribute to why some states are better than KS and why KS is better than a lot of other state.

Your quote: One thing is certain. Without change there can be no improvement and Kansas needs to improve.

In general terms you correct....without change there can be no improvement. The trick is showing how a change will cause improvement. You have not done that with the case of 5 high school wrestlers wrestling in the 14U kids state. Heck, I would argue it helps us improve. The 8th graders that they have to wrestle know that they have to spend their season prepping to wrestle high school kids potentially. I know it motivated a lot of our 8th graders to put in extra work.

"Kansas needs improvement"- Really, based on what? What kind of improvement? Define the end state you see or the conditions of wrestling in KS that would cause you, Chief, etc to say....Man, we made it. As a state we have achieved our goal.

If there is no goal, end state, or vision set forth then it is impossible to establish programs and define success of those programs.

So far all I see is that we must suck because we let 5-15 freshman wrestle for 3 weeks in the 14U kids state series. If we change this bylaw then KS wrestling will be improved and successful. I absolutely do not see the linkage to this and being successful as a state.

Shawn Budke

MANY OF THE BEST WRESTLERS ARE IN COLORADO COMPETING THIS WEEKEND. THREE WEEKS FOR THE STATE SERIES IS ABSURDLY LONG FOR MOST OF THE HS WRESTLERS. ELIMINATE SUBS AND MAYBE EVEN DISTRICTS..

For what reason...they shouldn't be wrestling kids remember.

THERE IS NO POINT EVEN GOING ANY FURTHER WITH YOU. IT IS LIKE ARGUING WITH A FENCE POST. HS WRESTLERS WILL NOT GET ANY BETTER WRESTLING 7TH AND 8TH GRADERS WHEN THEY COULD BE WRESTLING OTHER HS WRESTLERS. JUST ADMIT IT. ALL OF OUR WRESTLERS SHOULD BE LOOKING AT MAKING A TRIP TO CEDAR FALLS FOR SOME REAL COMPETITION BUT I HAVE HAD JUST A HANDFUL SIGN UP. SINCE 2010 WE HAVE HAD A SEVERE DROP OFF IN THE NUMBER OF D1 LEVEL WRESTLERS AND WE HAVE NOT BEEN COMPETITIVE AT THE NATIONAL LEVEL FOR THE PAST THREE SUMMERS IN JUNIORS. STEEL SHARPENS STEEL SHAWN, YOU KNOW THAT. IF WE ONLY HAVE A HANDFUL WRESTLING DOWN THEN LETS CLEAN IT UP!

OUR GOALS SHOULD BE TO PLACE IN THE TOP 5 OF JUNIOR DUALS. TO HAVE 10 FARGO AA'S AT THE JUNIOR LEVEL BETWEEN FS AND GR. TO PLACE IN THE TOP 5 OF CADET DUALS. TO HAVE 20 FOLKSTYLE AA'S AT CEDAR FALLS. TO HAVE 600 KIDS AT OUR FS/GR STATE TOURNAMENT. WE NEED MORE COACHING CONTACT BETWEEN MARCH 1 AND MAY 31 SO WE CAN KEEP THE INTENSITY AND IMPROVEMENT AFTER HS STATE. YOUR REQUEST IS OFF BASE AS WE ALL KNOW THAT MOST OF THIS IS SUBJECTIVE BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY VARIABLES. I WILL, HOWEVER, STAND BY MY POSITION THAT HS WRESTLERS WILL NOT IMPROVE BY WRESTLING 7TH AND 8TH GRADERS.

Will,

The problem seems to be the kids that are ending their season after HS State. By making it more restrictive you will only lose more. I now see what your saying. If we eliminate all other options they will have to move onto national tournys. The flaw is they won't. Those that want to push themselves are. Those that don't, can't be forced into it. Your proposition to eliminate high school from kids will only make the numbers go down. I'm all for providing awareness and helping those that can't go to national tournys go. But trying to force them by eliminating other options.... that's absurd.

If I'm wrong about your plan I apologize... But that is what it sounds like you what to do.

It could be that there is just not the interest in Freestyle and Greco. Baseball, jobs, working on the farm, summer, girls, the list goes on and on. With the Wrestling on the cutting board at the Olympics it could get worse. You can't make kids like freestyle and greco.

One more thought. It is not wrestling that is the problem. Kids are just softer these days, and their is no one to blame but the parents.

Aint that the truth, sometimes i think they forget they are raising future husbands and wives

Will - I agree with your desire to improve KS wrestling and admire your passion. I strongly believe more mat time of similar and better caliber along w/ FS/Greco is a fantastic way of doing that. I don't think this topic will help improve our Juniors results at Fargo or our KS kids going D1. I mean we are talking about a small population of wrestlers wrestling 3 weeks/events and about 10 matches during ONE year of their career. I get that other states don't allow it but what else do other states do that we don't do that we should consider? I'd imagine there are many opportunities when looking w/ a wider lens.

If I consider all the opportunities to improve KS wrestling, the 14U vs HS, while yes an opportunity, doesn't seem like it would provide the dividends as some of the others you referenced. You mentioned Folk Nationals and FS/Greco State. I'd add in Southern Plains too as GREAT opportunities to get better. It seems that getting people to do these is much more worth the effort (read as has bigger payoff) than forcing 14 y/o-HS State placers to wrestle in HS.

Do you feel that allowing 14 y/o HS state placers in the 14U are impacting our ability to get numbers / goals you reference? Yes maybe but is it more than the many other opportunities we have? I can't believe these 3 events would hinder those goals so much and know you know there are bigger fish to go after. I'd be shocked if this were a top 3 item based on the scope alone. I say identify the top 3 items and focus efforts there. You know you can count me in to help.

I do think the few kids that really wants to be the best, will wrestle the best regardless. Most may say they want to be the best, few believe they can and are willing to do the development required. Why do you think that is? Doubt it's related to this rule.

I think our goal as a state (parents, coaches, leadership, etc) needs to be to convince them to want to be the best, make them believe they can be then recommend and identify the development required to get there. You recommended the path/development but I think we are missing the keys...desire and belief.

To me, forcing the hand or shaming kids in this situation has more downside with the potential to drive them away from the sport which would certainly impact those summer/national goals.

Speaking of goals, has anyone published those goals you mentioned for the summer events? If not I think that is a great place to start. It would be a good tool to measure our success/failure. Seems it has a much higher potential for KS wrestling than what this thread has.

Could anybody really understand the adults in charly brown?

I agree with your last thought and I think that is exactly why a wrestler would choose to wrestle 7th and 8th graders after they have been wrestling HS for an entire season.

It is also a huge conclusion to jump to when you say that these few will NOT wrestle at all if the rules were different. Again, I offer splitting the HS group into Cadets and Juniors for those in 9th-12th to comply with the USA Wrestling age structure to begin summer preparation now rather than later. If you really want numbers then offer Cadet and Junior USA FLK State the weekend after HS state or 2nd weekend. The three week series, for the HS division, way too long. You will be VERY lucky to get 10 matches in three weeks. To answer your question more directly, YES I am willing to see a handful or two of kids sit at home if they feel they don't want to wrestle HS division after having completed a whole season of such in order to have a level playing field for 7th and 8th graders. NO, I do not think they will quit the sport. YES, I agree that this situation will not make the greatest impact. There are other ideas but I DO BELIEVE WE NEED CLARITY ON THIS TOPIC! A HS wrestler is a HS wrestler which should make them ineligible to wrestle in a division that is primarily MS kids. Most of these kids get ONE shot at winning a Kids State title and I think it is a disservice to them by allowing this unfair advantage of HS wrestlers dipping DOWN into the KIDS division.

Summer leadership needs to work together, I agree. You and I have talked about the issues and solutions there.

In the HS Division Chad! I know you have trouble with much of this reasoning but surely you grasp that portion.

Then lets try one more thought. It's not 7th, 8th, and 9th graders. The majority are 8th and 9th graders. Any 7th grader that is wrestling 14U is already at a significant advantage as they will be the Seniors that are 18 at the beginning of their Sr. year and 19 by wrestling season. Let's call a Spade a Spade, they are Red Shirts and are the Same Age as the 8th Graders. They have taken advantage of the system and when they are 8th graders they will be the same age as the 9th graders you are trying to shame.

This speaks volumes. Get rid of the 9th graders and it will be a division of 8th graders. The one chance to win a State Championship will be totally diluted. The rest of the State Champions will have a TWO YEAR DIFFERENCE. The 14U group will be full of 13 year old kids and 14 year old kids that have cheated the system already by RED SHIRTING. Pussification at it's finest.

It has been brought to my attention by several posters that I may have over-indulged the age of wrestlers who were red shirted. It has been noted that me saying these wrestlers would be 19 is equivilant to Chief and Will mentioning 7th graders in the 14U. The number is very small, to the point it is irrelevant. My apologies to those with summer birthdays.

Will
Wasn't going to go here but since you want to yell at me (using all caps) and call me a fence post....here goes....

1. This is a personal issue you especially this year. You are getting way too emotional and this is honestly the first time in 10 years I cannot follow your logic because your arguments for this change go against your stance on almost all other subjects on this forum.

2. Those are great goals for freestyle and Greco. Could you please share those with the state Freestyle and Greco Director so he can publish those for all of us coaches to work towards with our kids? He has been in the job for a couple years know and it is the first time I have heard these. I think you know who that is don't you? And while your at it maybe you can ask him to work with some folks to develop a some action plans that will layout some blueprints on how we can work together to achieve those goals.

Ok, done with my emotional outburst.....here are some challenges I see in your reasoning....

1. I think Joe Knecht is spot on. Please provide evidence as to how 5-15 kids wrestling in the 14U vice High School division is going help us achieve any of those goals you set out.

2. Your idea of using number D1 wrestlers on the decline is not a valid measure of effectiveness. Way too many more important factors to consider. If Kansas had a D1 wrestling program then that argument would hold more validity. Maybe we should spend more time figuring out how to make that happen rather than regulating opportunities for 14 year old kids. You know darn well that there a ton of other factors that enter into the decision of what college and what level to attend. We have 3-4 time state champs that choose to wrestle at lower levels in college because they want to be closer to home. We have others that go out of state to wrestle D1 and then return home because of homesickness, costs, injury, etc. heck we even have multiple time state champs that have never wrestled for a college in a sanctioned college match as part of a D1 college team. In reality, those are all very valid reasons that are more of an impact on why our D1 numbers are down than 14 year olds not competing in the HS division.

I do have to disagree with Beeson in that I do not think it is all because of the pussification of America. There are a ton of reasons. We will never be able to tell until KS gets a D1 wrestling program.

Beeson does raise a very valid point that the majority of our 14U are 8th and 9th graders. The bylaw change will water down the 14U terribly!

Another idea is that we may want to increase the number of folkstyle training opportunities and start to minimize the limited resources we spend on freestyle and Greco since they won't be offered in the Olympics after 2016. Now that can change but if it doesn't, freestyle and Greco could very easily become irrelevant very quickly in the eyes of these kids.

I would hope that even if we lose wrestling in the olympics we would atill push freestyle and greco. There is still a ton of opportunity on the international level for them to compete and the us will still need the wrestlers when the olympics figure it out and put it back in.

Mike pirl

Shawn,

I used caps to help easily distinguish my responses to your comments. Not yelling. It is pointless to change one's volume when conversing with a fence post.

I have no more emotion in this argument this year than any year since we started the HS division. I still contend that once you have moved into HS you should wrestle the HS division. Is that going to make a meaningful impact to the overall Kansas competitiveness, no. Are there are only a handful left? Yes and I believe it is because of discussions like this. YOU WILL NOT GET BETTER IF YOU ARE IN HS AND YOU WRESTLE 7th and 8th GRADERS.

There are lots of good ideas on here and I think we can use them to help evolve the sport. I have no idea why this is so debated. It is frustrating to believe that the concept of having an advantage from wrestling HS is not clearly apparent. Last year we had a HS state champ wrestle 14U and I believe he might have been an undefeated HS state champ. Are you kidding me?

We started the MS state tournament and it has been VERY successful. Maybe it is time to adapt to that classification. I like that idea and I like the idea of having Cadets and Juniors so that underclassmen can move up as Juniors or stay in the Cadet class if they want. I believe both of these ideas will add more wrestlers but only if we have a district and state tournament starting the weekend after HS state. (I know that one MS league goes a week longer but surely parental pressure can force a change there. That is another confounding situation. Why would a MS season go beyond the end of HS?? I digress.)

This is my last post. Shawn and Chad have twisted and turned every possible statement made that is contrary to their position. I am done being twisted. I will just keep pushing forward and doing the best I can while standing up for what I believe is right, HS wrestlers belong in the HS division, I dont care how old they are. Over and out.

"I am done being twisted." ~Will Cokeley


I don't know if I should laugh or cry.


Either way, there are lots of good ideas here and without these constructive debates no change will happen for sure.

I believe that Kansas needs less restriction for opportunity for our wrestlers. And without KSHAA jumping on board with.USAWKS in our willingness to truely promote wrestling & not limit it, our state suffers. We need to figure out how to change some things there and keep growing & promoting wrestling in a positive manner & we can get there.

I'd be happy to help.

Simple:

Stop club after sixth grade. Work to get middle school aligned around the state. Only option after MS and HS is Freestyle and Greco.

I like Hull's idea. It's a great idea and he's not all that bright so it must be a good one. And oh yea, I farted

The best way our wrestling will get better within the state is to have some of our best guys in each club and/or high school teams - is to have them involved in the programs and in the practice room with the up and comers. Those guys provide great leadership by example. It is very important to have some of our former college wrestlers and high school wrestlers involved with all our programs when their careers end. The youngsters really look up to these guys for advice and equally important they can roll around with them. Club directors, club coaches, and HS and Middle School Coaches can make this happen. All wrestlers DEVELOPE at different times. FACT

I agree 100%. Ark City's room is full of Alumni in the High School room. Coach Buckbee has some of the old State Champions come in and share video and experiences just before State. Nick McGrew who wrestled for Ark City High School and in College is the Asst. Coach at the Middle School. Jake Beeson goes in with me and helps coach the beginners class (3-5 year olds). Colby Watters came in over spring break from College and is helping with the little league program. There are several High School kids that are not wrestling Kids that come in and help with the little league. Jim Ramirez comes in and helps every now and then. It helps more than any of these kids or coaches will ever know. A strong Tradition is priceless.

Interesting topic. There are a lot of good points made from both sides. However, I would offer a perspective that is often overlooked on this forum, that of the average wrestle. It seems to me that most of the discussions on here are dominated by the extremist, (“...Little Johny has won 3 State title in a row, should he travel to Russia for a summer camp to ensure he will get a D1 scholarship?...”). And for good reason, those that are the most passionate about the sport will be the ones that take the time to post.

However, I have what I consider an average wrestler (maybe a little above average). He has qualified for State several time, even placed once. He has wrestled since he was 9 and likes wrestling, but doesn’t love it. He plays other sports such as baseball and football so he has never wrestled outside the timeframe of Thanksgiving to Easter. Therefore, he typically loses to the “year-round” guys that do Purler, Freestyle/Greco and the summer camps... as he should since he hasn’t put in the work.

My son is now 14 and a Freshman in HS. He was out with an injury until early January and wrestled JV for the remainder of the season. He did ok, winning more than he lost, but far from dominant. I don’t know how most HS JV programs are run, but I would consider ours more of an afterthought vs a “professional” organization as some have described it. The club he has been a member of the last several years is much more rigorous.

So my point is... of course he is wrestling 14U. I don’t think he would have even considered doing Kids if he had to wrestle the HS division. And yes, the reason he is wrestling 14U is because he thinks he has a chance. A chance to make it through subs, a chance to place at Districts. For him neither of these are a lock. He doesn’t look at wrestling an 8th graders as some easy way out. He has lost to several... Sammy being one of them. BTW, many of the kids in his sub bracket are also 9th graders.

For my son wrestling 14U is the best option for him. No, not so he can win a State championship, rather so he can develop an get some mat time. 3-4 matches at subs and 3-4 matches at districts vs 1-2 in HS division is a no-brainer.

Just my 2-cents


ps - I won't use my name here, but feel free to PM me if you would like to know

Ya know, I used to be an adventurer till I took an arrow to the knee.

Lol man that must have hurt!!!!!

FACT- I farted and has anyone seen my baseball?