State Tournament Officiating

First, I would like to thank the officials who actually did a great job this weekend. Second, I would like to express my frustrations with the way the official on mat 8 on Friday acted and officiated. I'm not going to say any names, but I will tell you his number is #724. Any one that was on his mat can vouch for how horrible he officiated most of the matches (I welcome the rest of you officials to chime in, but you have no argument in this matter). He cost my son a match in the first round, then he developed an attitude and acted like I had no reason to be irate. These kids work hard all season (all year in our case) and it is disheartening to have an official ruin their hopes with a single, obvious, screwed up call. For those of you who witnessed the match, you know where I'm coming from (Bout 39 on mat 8). Before this match, he had the previous 4 and several others that had coaches up at the table arguing his calls. He was replaced and later moved to mat 3 where the first match he had coaches at the table. Then, he officiated the Chapionship matches...

Also, I think [incorrect official number removed] needs to check his credentials and remember he's not God and also realize that staring at some people and going up behind them and staring at them while they're coaching doesn't actually intimidate them, it pisses them off and should think before he makes that kind of future mistake again. Just because your an official doesn't give you the right to try to intimidate someone into saying the wrong thing to you just so you can eject them before they get a chance to explain anything (he did it at Salina as well).

Lastly, I would like to say I have never heard of so many potential dangerous calls and stalling calls in one single event.

I dont know if this was the same ref but match #106 highschool 160# semi final match, two evenly matched wrestlers, the eventual loser of the match got an obvious take down that the ref refused to acknowledge in the third period sending the match to overtime. we witnessed the same ref earlier reversing his calls because of coaches pulling out rule books and correcting him.

Well said Jimmy!!! Those refs are from a particular part of the state and have no business at the state level. It happens at Salina and at the state tournament every year. I will say this for the referees in District 1, I have never felt like any of them try to intimidate the coaches or young wrestlers. I will leave my address and phone number in case the referee who was going around looking all the coches up and down and asking all day are you talking to me? wants to explain himself over the phone or in person.

Richard Blevins
1128 N Oak
Ottawa, KS 66067
785-248-6041

#992 Is a High School Sophmore and did not officiate in the state series.

Ted Huck

I'm going to go out on a limb based on the description given and bet he was thinking of #135 not 992!!!

It's the read-headed Billy about 30 or so years old (possibly #135) - Thanks for the clarification Ted

I bet you're right Sig

It is, he was that way at Salina TOC also. I watched him stare down 3 coaches during the finals alone for about 10 seconds each time (he was back up official) talked to coaches like I talk to my 10 year old when I have told him to do something 10 times and have had enough. I get that it is a hard job and I don't do it but I have been around wrestling for 20+ years and best I can recall he is the worst I have ever seen based on presentation and attitude towards coaches. I will say he is technically very good just the outward presentation is horrible and that does make a impact on coaches. Treat everyone with respect until given an legit reason not to. Some of these coaches have won State High School titles and wrestled in college you can't assume everyone is loud mouth arrogant dad with no experience and treat them like you are better.

I also know who you speak of with your other reference. We have had him several times this year with little to no issues. That being said I didn't see your match so can't speak directly of it.

We as coaches are always going to have slanted views of whats being called, I just hope my kids don't leave it in the hands of the official. That is not always doable and it kills you inside when they screw something up and there is no way to explain it the kids.

Maybe we need develop a better training/evaluation system. There seems to always be a 100 Moms filming, maybe coaches can cut portions out and send it in and ask for clarification or interpretation. I understand we don't have the time or assets for and instant review but this could be done the following week and if nothing else we all might learn something from the results. Not looking to overturn matches just a open honest learning idea.

I have watched him intentionally make a bad call and stare right at the coach while doing it just trying to bait them onto responding so he can eject them. I have had him come to my corner trying to get me to argue because of " the look on your face says you have a problem with my judgement coach. Are you arguing my judgement" . But it will never change as long as the buddy system is in place.

I think he's the same official who ejected another official at Salina TOC one year.

Thanks Ted for going to bat for my son Billy Willson. I can promise you JACD_Moison it was not #992. He did not officiate a tournament all year. I can understand the confusion by the first name. I am not trying to irritate you, just clarifying.

Brian Bigelow
913-549-2713
Bigelow7275@yahoo.com

I will refrain from comment on that official... As myself, I am official. I try to encourage any coach to ask me questions. I will never hide behind judgement..I say exactly what I saw to warrant my call..that is if you did not hear what I was saying during the match. I tell every coach even in high school if they have a question to please call me to the table. I will explain my call and we will move on from there.
As for coaches and parents...call out good official by name and get there names out..people have hard time know names of the officials...if they are good..find out there name and state why you think they are good and what you like. If they are bad give out there name so other tourny and "head officials" hopefully wont call them to do the tourny's. We get on here and complain about bad refs...no names are given until now..be up front..say who is good who is bad and why. If we want the best then gets the names out of you you think are good officials. I myself will ask coaches what they like about my style and what stuff they dislike. I want to coaches to want me to officiate their matches. Problem is officals where grey shirts with no names or numbers on them anymore and nobody knows names of these refs. So if we want change in officiating then speak up and give names of the good and the bad...

Some good young officials in D1:
Nathan Stanley
Nathan Butler
Ryne Cokeley
Zac Hensley
Isaac Dulgarian
Baily Kelly
Kyle Huck
Spencer Wilson
I know I have left out alot more...

These guys and others like them are our future and we as coaches and parents should do what we can to be rational matside and work with them to improve, as coaches and refs, so they will want continue to ref in the future.

I will give a shout out to some pretty darn good officials who were at state.

Nick Gray
Mike Reichle
Rachael Woody

Keep these in mind when your looking for head refs for next year!

Brian thanks for not taking offense to the mistake in identity, that's why I said "I think" I wasn't sure. I meant no harm whatsoever.

The officials that came to mind were the young lady with the glasses (heard many complaints from other coaches after she took the place of Matthew Weaver on MAT 8) then immediately Matthew Weaver had complaints on MAT 3 after Mr. Ashpole said he would be watched and "babysat" closely, and Billy Gaskill needs an attitude check, may be a great referee during a match, but needs adjusting.

I asked Matthew Weaver to approach the table after one of my wrestlers had another kid pinned while locked up in a tight cradle with legs hooked and all for about 15 seconds and he rolled his eyes while approaching the table. I asked him what his definition of a pin was and asked why he didn't get on the outside to see the pin. His reply, "well if you must know since you must be new to the sport, the shoulder blades have to be touching at the same time and the back flat to the mat, now if it's OK with you, can we resume the match?" I looked at him oddly obviously, and he then added "get back to your corner coach" put his whistle back in his mouth and walked off. After the match he had several other coaches in the stands and parents saying how much of an embarrassment to the sport he was for his actions. I know for a fact that if I had told him he was an id10t, I would have been ejected for the truth for the entire next season and then state of 2014. Then, 24 hours + later, I am coaching a 3rd & 4th place match and look over at Matthew and Billy, I looked over there not once, but 3 or 4 times and Billy was staring directly at me - I watched the match for a few seconds, then looked back and sure the heck, Billy was still staring at me. Under my breath, I said something like "what the f are you looking at?" or maybe "what the muff hair corn are you doing that" Not out loud, but under my breath. (I can't stand people that try to intimidate just because they have a title and basically enough power to ruin your life for a year.) He must read lips well because he immediately got up, and both of them walked over and took a knee right behind me. At the end of the period, I looked back and he was still staring directly at me, just waiting like a lion ready to pounce on his prey once it made one... small... peep. I could feel his eyes poking the back of my head like two electro probes and almost smell and feel their breath down my neck. I kept my mouth shut and the lions teeth receded and the threat was no longer... I have lived to tell the tale.

Let me give a couple of examples of blown calls, my wrestlers were not involved in any of these matches.

1. Headlock was thrown from nuetral position. The official gave a two count. Not only did she not give nearfall, she refused to give a takedown also.

2. Official allowed an illegal choke to be applied. I yelled, "hey lady, your blowing an illegal choke hold call." She attempted to see the illegal choke, but I feel she had no idea what she was even looking for.

3. I witnessed an official try to give 2 points for a third stall call. Another official had to come over and inform her of the correct call.

State is not the time to train new officials. These officials seemed very green at best. Officials should not have to be represented from all Districts. If the 20 best officials are from one district then they should be used, and then the best officials from the remaining district should be used. That means if we need 32 officials: 15 from District 2, 10 from District 1, 5 from District 3, and 2 from District 4 would be totally acceptable. Just as long as we have the best. A poor or new official should not make it to state just because they are the best in a weak District.

Beeson "I witnessed an official try to give 2 points for a third stall call. Another official had to come over and inform her of the correct call."

It actually happened more than once, they weren't just attempts, they actually made the call. One resulted in going into overtime and the kid with the "stall call" was merely setting up a shot, not stalling, but faking/re-shooting/backing up a bit to get what seemed to be their appropriate distance. Also, MAT 8, girl with the glasses, she called potentially dangerous 2 X in a match when a kid (not mine or the club) was doing a textbook stand up and simply peeling the hands, not 1 or 2 fingers, the hands... I agree, many of these were newbies and should not have been trained at state. The young Stanley kid and that other young man that received the award did a splendid job this weekend. Respectful, courteous, and quick to explain reason... bravo to them

Do we have a "head official(s)" for the state? Can we establish something like that? Get the top 1 or 2 from each district and set that advisory board up if not already there. We all know that you are not suppose to speak ill of those you work with but we have all had conversations with some of our more experienced officials and they will honestly tell you so and so has issues or should not be doing this at certain levels. I could see this benefiting everyone in the long run.

I watched and discussed Nathan Stanley with a couple other Officials this weekend and that kid (he is a kid, still in school) is pretty darn good, better than some that are turning grey and have years of "experience". He could be the face of the next generation of officials (or not) but currently he acts and works more professional than some others that were voted into the state tournament and that was acknowledged by many.

We also have to remember no one is perfect and everybody has their bad day we just hope that it isn't on our kids biggest day.

I think Keith Ashpole was the Head Official for the Kids State tourney. I can tell you he was running around like a chikin' with his head cut off trying to mend all of the rips and tears.

I would suggest that there be an onsite mediation between an official and coach (face to face with mediators present i.e a district rep and a neutral liaison) and let them get everything out on the table and get it over so that one understands the other and a coach doesn't get ejected because an official rolls his eyes, eyeballs him, or tells him to sit down. It's easy to eject a coach for saying something minute, but takes an official actually abusing someone physically to get booted. Where's the harmony in that? I should be able to ask an official on the spot if he has a personal problem with me and not be scared that I will lose the privilege of doing what I love to do because he has been staring at me for 3 minutes straight. Either he has a problem with me, or he likes the designer jeans I'm wearing...

I have to agree. I have watched many of these young refs and have to say that Zac Hensley is one of the best (young or old) refs out there.

Ted Huck

Keith Ashpole was the Head Official. In my opinion, the Head Official should be able to bring a crew of his choosing. The head official would be held accountable for the officials he would bring. I think this would make him want to bring only the best officials. If we are still worring about being fair, let the Districts send their top 2 officials and then the Head Official choose the rest.

They ACTUALLY CALLED Stalling at State?! LOL! REEEALLY?! WHO Knew?! Uh Huh?! If you say so... SMH...

Outstanding suggestion! Please email this suggestion to me and I will see to it this is submitted as a rules recommendation for the next rules committee meeting.

While on the subject of officials, I would like to thank all District II officials for an outstanding job and believe District II had the highest quality officiating crew at the tournament with District I very close behind and nipping at our heals.

I'd like to hear some thoughts on the older lady from Atwood. We do not claim to know very much about the sport since our son has only been wrestling a couple or years but she seems to pretty biased against certain teams. Any thoughts?

As a member of the Executive Council I personally would find it to be a conflict of interest to have any member of my immediate family profit from the state tournament in any manner.

I think it may be time for someone who has the time to start a permanent thread on the top 20-30 officials state wide (kind of like Chief's all-class wrestling list) where someone who has contacts all over the state can rank referees and point out who the good ones are. That way, the best referees can be rewarded and the people all over the state can see who they are dealing with at various tournaments. At state, I observed a call by a referee during a match I was coaching in which the referee called locking hands on one of my kids. I was not aware of the specifics of the rule as my kid was still in control but the other wrestler had faced him and he locked his hands around the other kid's belly from the front position. I was, however, familiar with the experience of the referee and his quality calls in the past. I simply questioned him as to whether he was sure about the rule and he politely explained that since he hadn't awarded an escape my wrestler couldn't lock hands around the belly even though he could ordinarily do so in a takedown situation. I thanked him for his explanation and told my wrestler in the future to realize he could not do it. The situation may have been different if it was a referee didn't have the same experience and quality as this referee. Anyway, I don't think this proposed forum should be used to necessarily bad mouth bad referees or referees who have a bad day. But it could be used to reward referees who exercise good reasoning, are up and coming stars (like Nathan Stanley, etc.) and maybe let some of the best referees who may develop a little attitude to let them know we are watching. By the way, I have experienced Billy (spoken of previously) as an excellent in-match referee and believe he is as talented as any referee out there. I'm sure the pressures of having coaches scream at you all day long all season long can wear one thin. Anybody want to take on a role such ranking the good and the up and coming referees without running off too many who have bad days or are moving up the learning curve?

Pretty bad officiating on almost all of the matches that I watched (not saying every ref was bad, just a select few). It seemed like the matches lasted 5 more minutes because there was always a coach at the table from a bad call. I agree on the topic of letting the head ref bring his/her selection of officials, instead of letting the State tournament be some of these refs first gig.

I have received several private messages indicating problems and support with the Head Official bringing his own crew. I believe it will pass at the State Body meeting and will submit it to Richard.

I was informed we had an official from Missouri at the tournament. Also that District 4 was told to only vote for 3 officials instead of 5. If either of these statement are incorrect please let me know. If they are correct this is even more reason to submit this to the State Body.

I had previously mentioned a ranking system and actually have inquired into a website specifically designed so that coaches could have a log in id and be able to rank officials. (Must be Bronze Certified) We must have an avenue so that all can see an official's track record and their ability to do a job according to the level of competition... there are Novice tournaments for those that can't be consistant so they can improve.

I envision a ranking system simlar to what you see with Netflix. 1-5 stars along side of the referees picture and a link to their personal bio. Tournament directors would then be able to have a comprehensive list of officials, their past performance, experience level and as an added tool, their availability via a calendar in their bio.

Any website sharks out there that want to partner with me on this??

Disclaimer:

This idea is the sole property of myself and you can't steal it

Why not have the officials from each district vote for each other? You keep your districts relevant that way and who knows the officials better than other officials? Just another alternative to what some perceive to be a problem.

I can envision relatives voting for each other. If there is a District which has less skilled officials the rest of the state should not suffer as a result. The system today is flawed.

Personally Richard I think all officials should be required to have background check just like a coach. They are paid to protect our kids. There is a suggestion for the state meeting.

Richard,
Let me see if I am getting this correct. You are all for the head official to invite who he wants to the tournament, but not let district officials vote who should come because they may have a family memeber that is an official. We better not have a head official that has a relative that is certified either then, because there is a chance they may get asked to officiate and that is not fair since they are related to the head official.

Thanks,
Lance Geyer

Are any of us ever 100% happy with the officials? I know I have been upset several times in the past 20 years with some of the best officials in the state! I don't care what anybody says, it is not an easy job. I officiate on Sundays sometimes after coaching a HS tournament all day Saturday not only to help my family get by financially but also because I enjoy it. I guarantee you this weekend I missed some calls. I can think of one with a rock creek kid where I should have given the take down quicker but I was waiting to make sure the other kid didn't suck him under because he had the rock creek kids leg. By that time the other kid had came to his feet and then I could not call two. The rock creek kid ended up winning thank goodness so I didn't SCREW him out of a match. Again, it isn't as easy as you might think it is! Coaches at the Kids Level make it even harder sometimes because the boundaries that HS coaches have don't seem to be there. We better be careful or we won't have any officials left. I know several High Quality HS officials who are hanging it up because of the way they are treated. With that said, I worked the HS weights and was very pleased with how professional the coaches and wrestlers were. Much better than last year. Special thanks to the Eldorado Coach? I believe. I had to reverse myself on a call that changed the outcome of a match and the coach could not have been more professional than he was. It was much appreciated by me. I know one thing for sure, officiating has made me a better head coach in the corner for my kids.

Sure, why not have officials vote for officials. The old buddy system.

I think the ranking system has some merit; HOWEVER, it would have to be much more defined than a Bronze Coach. I'm sure you saw all the people on the floor this weekend that are Bronze certified and I personally don't want all of those people voting on something like this. Remember as long as you can pass a loose background check and pay the money you get a card. (I believe that to be a whole separate issue, those standards are way too loose, but that is a discussion for another day.)

As I mentioned earlier I believe an advisory board of the top 2 from each district or top 5-8 from the whole state (maybe each district doesn’t have someone considered to be the best of the best) would be a good idea, they can review small clips of video sent in and determine if there is a mistake or give the coach the proper interpretation of the rule and share that on these boards or elsewhere to help educate the whole community. This group could also pick the state crew and they could do the rating as mentioned above. Maybe the club/tournament directors could vote, I’m not 100% sure on how you limit it but to say all Bronze cards is probably not right either.

I understand this is all easier said than done but if you don’t start somewhere it will never change.

Also as mentioned before we have some great guys out there, everyone is capable of having a bad day and I wouldn’t want the job. I think the lost point here may be that we just want to refine the process and ensure the best of the best are at qualifying tournaments. Club coaches can be a complete pain in the butt to deal with. Most all are smarter than anyone else on the mat when trying to defend our kids.

I was informed we had an official from Missouri at the tournament. (From Beeson)

We did; he is on the certified KS Kids officials list, he works District 1 tournaments most weekends and does a fine job...as does his son I might add. His son would have been a fine addition to our list of D1 officials.

Kevin McCall

The only issue I can see with having the head official select the remaining officials have the first 2 from each district qualify is one that pretty obvious.

How is Mr. Ashpole to decide who else gets in to the tournament when he himself is busy working every weekend at his own tournaments? Is he supposed to just take the word of other officials (think buddy system again), is he supposed to give up reffing each weekend to travel all across the state and evaluate the officials? Or does he just use the officials he knows from the other districts, which again could be considered that darned buddy system.

You also have great officials that don't work many kids tournaments during the year due to scheduling conflicts (High School & College) but do work as many as possible including the qualifiers, should they be penalized because they do the higher levels? Do they not have more experience usually than some of the kids level officials? Which one would you want behind the whistle when it came down to it?

These are just a few problems I see with the ideas of a "rankings" system & the proposed allocation system.

And while it was mentioned that officials need background checks, that's fine with me, but can we get the kids level coaches to have to pass the national federation rules test?

I think for any open or Cadet and higher level, that would be great, but what about novice level?

That's a great question, I'm not sure. Treat them like the wrestlers, and give them some leniency and allow them to gain experience if they don't feel comfortable taking the national test.

For those who do not know, all Middle School, High School, & Officials have to take the National Federation test, however the test is open book. It's still a great way to get caught up on the current rule changes & points of emphasis as well as make you look into the technicalities of it.

Officials have to score a 90% or better to be able to qualify for post season in High School.

Also, Nigel on MAT 11/12 did a great job as usual with handling a few situations he was in. Professional and courteous.

I also found out that Matthew Weaver has MS and it makes it hard for him to get up and down and move around as much as the other younger refs, I never knew of this and feel bad about his situation, however, if we aren't physically able to be agile enough to snap to MAT level and make an attempt to make a call that is fully supported, then he shouldn't be officiating a state tournament. I am in no way shape or form saying anything negative about his condition, but if you're physically impaired, you need to know your limits. It would be nice to know these things beforehand as well so we know what to expect. I'm sorry in advance if I have offended anyone bringing up his condition, is was used to shed light on the situation, not make fun or ridicule.

Also talked to Billy, we revisited why he came over and sat behind me, he stated that he was just making sure that nothing was going to be escalated. He also made me aware that he was very passionate of his duties as an official and that has been deemed at times to be intimidating. I fully agreed with him With that said, I hung up the phone relieved a bit and felt better about the full situation. Hopefully something was accomplished on both sides.

We all want what's best for the kids, that's our objective as coaches/parents/officials, I just wish there was a smoother avenue of approach at times...

That’s cool that you talked to him and sounds like it was civil. I think we would all agree he is a very good official and he is passionate about it, I also think most will also agree that he is about the only one that walks around like he has a corn cob in you know where…he just needs to bring it down a notch with the mean mugging. Everyone just needs to relax a bit and remember most of us do this for kids younger than 14 and the world will continue to spin when the mats are rolled up.

I have attended the officials meetings and area clinics in district 1. It has opened my eyes to what these guys and gals go through to be able to gain more knowledge of the sport they love. I encourage everyone who has complained about a referee to click the little tab to the left listed as "Officials" and give it a try.
Keep this in your thoughts when you want to complain to a ref. Was that a judgment call? And if so it is the officials judgement that matters. However, rules questions should be brought up to table at the appropriate time.

Ted Huck

Very well said... LOL!

Doesn't matter where you go you WILL always have some good some bad. But at a State Level we look for the best the state has to offer. I've been to LOTS of tourneys this year and for the number of women officials I've seen at these events, doesn't even come close to what I saw at State. Where did they come from? I do know 3 of them are family members of district directors, talk about the buddy system. As for the officials on mats 1&2 they were GREAT! If you had a dispute they told you take it to the table, and would listen to everything you had to say. On those mats saw some calls over turned, also saw calls not. But they were top quality refs. Wish I knew their names, my hats off to them.

That ... is a can of worms ... I know several coaches who have never wrestled!!

Very true sir. I was just referring to the refs.

I think it adds to the understanding but do not necassarily agree that having competed in competed in wrestling is a must to officiate it!

I believe that officiating requires a very unique set of skills and traits! For one, they need confidence to manage the entire match and "sell" their calls. Next, they need to have a very short memory and very thick skin!!

Post removed sir. Just a crazy thought

And yes, very thick skin....I wouldnt want to do it!!

BUMP Randy...Good to see an "ol timer" chime in...I have refrained...Things have changed ALOT since I bowed out 10 years ago.

LOL ... lately, I just watch but occasionally I have to include my cents!!

Do any of the "Head" (top 1 or 2) officials get invited to the fall district meetings or state level board meetings? Would it be appropriate to invite them? My thought would be if districts had a picture board of Officials similar to what Mark Stanley did for D1N at the seeding meeting they could run through it with what knowledge they have and make some recommendations for clubs that are running tournaments. They could also discuss some of the biggest issues they see and clubs could do the same.

It's obvious from watching this thread there are officials reading it and some of the old timers that can impact the future of wrestling reading it, lets come up with responsible positive solutions and act on them where necessary. I don't think the sky is falling but we all agree some little tweaks here and there would be beneficial.

I think that the liaison or district rep should be present at the board meetings, then at the end of the year (like Mark S did with the photos) the coaches be able to vote in their recommendations of what top 6 district officials should be at the State tournament. Each district would have actually 7 officials, 1 head, and 6 officials. That would give a total of 28 officials and each could take a shift. Example: First day, each of the districts have 3 refs + the head official, midday, swap the refs out to give the others a break and do the same for the next day with the exception of if a certain official has too many complaints the first day, he doesn't get the chance to officiate the championship matches. Anyone reading this will agree that many officials get tired of the BS toward the end of the day and they would just rather get things over with.

Also, the head official from each district would be a liaison for any immediate appeals, fill ins, and other discussions - Heck, even have like a table in the middle of the arena with nice and comfy chairs for them to just observe - I know it seems like this is something that would be OK for an NCAA event or a professional event, but Kids State SHOULD be treated as a professional event, not just some amateur thrown together event for little Johnny.

If something doesn't change, it will get worse. And before you know it, you will have guys like me (or Mr. Hinderliter) out in a freestyle singlet with a mask announcing the awards. Wouldn't look too professional...

You all have heard the saying it could be worse?

Start watching around 4:30

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=DR9w7k84X50

Makes our issues seem petty.

Spexy,

The officials on Mat 1-2 were Van Kuhn, Cody Munsch and Jared Martin. I agree, they did an outstanding job. I was not called to these mats the entire tournament (that I remember).

Regards,

Keith Ashpole

Mr. Ashpole, would you mind embarking on this and giving your opinion on how you think the tournament was ran? I mean officiating wise of course, the way everything was put into place and setup was great. This thread was intended to constructively criticize the officiating, not put down or ridicule. I would like to know what you think from the other side. Thanks

Spexy,
I would have to disagree with you in regards to your comment about the buddy system with the Woody family being officials. I know we as a district 4 club had a vote on who we would like to see at state, and many of our officials that we voted for were represented at state. In no way is this the buddy system, for the simple fact it is based on votes.

And just a friendly reminder that if you are going to call out an individual or individuals you must sign your name to your post, as this is forum rules.

Lance Geyer

There are a couple of issues in this video.

1. The most glaring, to me, was the coaches first stop was to the official instead of his wrestler. You have an unconcious athlete on the mat. That is priority #1. I did not see any medical personel come to this kids aid. There were multiple coaches standing around while this kid was laying on the mat face down.

2. Instead of defusing the situataion the official escalated it. he should have been on the mat with the wrestler. Instead he walks away from him to make sure the coach gets tossed. Officals are there to protect our wrestlers first then make sure pionts are awarded correctly. Defuse the situation first by not yelling and making sure the wrestler is taken care of.

This could serve as a case study as to what not to do as a coach and official. There is plenty of time to hash out who was at fault or who missed what after the wrestler is taken care of. If that were my child I would have dressed down the coach and official as both were being childish and selfish putting there own interests in front of the well-being of the wrestler.

Hi Keith!

I am glad that he came in to offer some insight. I was fortunate to have Keith as an official while I coached at Bishop Carroll. He is an official that gets it. He does his job but understands that we, yahoo coaches full of competitive piss and vinigar, have a tendency to "ask pointed questions" or "make heated statments". He went out of his way to make sure that we had a working relationship instead of a combative relationship. I can remember times that he made every attempt to help me understand why a call was made and he made it consistantly. He was very approachable and was willing to talk about situations anytime they came about. Get this....He even told me when he missed a call that one time. That being said all me and my coaching staff had to do was. 1. Walk to the table. Not the middle of the mat. 2. Use a calm voice. 3. Ask the question "What to you have here?". 4. If it was a scoring / time issue let the offical work it out with the table. 5. Keep it breif and get back to wrestling. I knew that if there was an issue with another official Keith would listen to my concern and either explain why the offical was right or tell me why I had a valid case to be concerned.

That being said...He does a great job.

Craig Adams

Why couldn't each district select their top two refs. Then the eight selected officials hold a selection meeting to decide the remaining officials. This would do away with the so called buddy system and that way each official would have a say in who they thought was qualified to ref our state tournament

I was standing matside outside the barrier next to a Greater Gold coach who was complaining about one of the District IV officials, whom you have mentioned. I replied to him why was he complaining they voted on and sent these officials to the tournament. He replied with a straight face they were told to only vote for three officials. I inquired of several other District IV teams and this same information was confirmed. Perhaps these individuals misunderstood the instructions. What I do know, this is not the first year I have been told this same story, and I did not misunderstand what I was told.

The selecting of officials is normally not based on quality of official but more of a popularity contest. This is particulary not good when you consider the best official is one that you don't know his name!

I would like to create a tracking tool that records all officials who officiate during the season. The tournament director would be mandated to enter each official and a grade A-D based on their performance. This data could be provided to a selection committee. The same officials should not be used year in and year out as this doesn't provide for a progression of development. However, officials should be graded at state and this should be used as part of the evaluation process for the next year.

I encourage clubs to sponsor their HS and college kids who were wrestlers to encourage them to develop into officials. THE BEST OFFICIALS ARE FORMER WRESTLERS, NO DEBATE. We need to find ways to pay for their registration and make sure they are getting the nod for assignments to novice and open tournaments.

I would also recommend a process of limiting the amount of tabling that occurs during the qualifying series. Two judgement questions and you go to the stands. If it is judgement the official is NOT going to change his mind. If it is a rules question and you are right no harm done but if you are wrong twice you go to the stands. Mat officials need to be willing to summon the head official for ratification. The head official SHOULD NOT be working the mat as they should be roving the area to clarify and evaluate.


Just a few thoughts...

Why dont we just have a 2 qualifying tournaments where all the officials are the athletes and we make them wrestle for their officiating spot at the state tournament make them earn their presence at state just like the wrestlers!

We would eliminate all those weighing more than 285...

Will,
I agree that the same officials need to not be the ones at state year in year out. But on the other hand some of the officials that are there year in year out are asked to do so for good reason, because they do a good job. So I don’t think we can penalize them for that. For example I believe Van Kuhn is there most years and deservedly so. On the other hand there are a few (not to be named) that should not be there at all, a little lone year in and year out. A grading system would work if the head official was honest with the grades, and not revert back to the "Buddy System"

I agree with you that we need to be more open with dropping names of GOOD OFFICIALS rather than always talking about the questionable ones, which gets their names out there instead of the quality officials.

I don’t know how we can ensure that the best officials are represented at state, but hopefully someone comes up with an idea soon, as this is becoming a year in year out problem.

Lets get officials pictures on the webpage so we can put faces to the names.

I would say that every coach needs to officiate and every official needs to coach for at least 1 year! Everyone would have a greater understanding of the difficulties in each role.
This bickering is only hurting the quality and longevity of "good officals". This type of thread only runs "up and comers" off and decreases the longevity of the seasoned offical.
Especially in the youth tournaments.

That would be a great start!

Bickering??? It's called constructive criticism - If it runs the thin skinned off, then it serves a purpose - that's not the intentions of this thread, but if people aren't aware, then how do they know to make it better for the future? Have you read the thread in it's entirety? I would guess not...

After reading some of the posts and reflecting on the weekend, I feel that the issues that we might have had with officiating should fall on my shoulders. Prior to the tournament, I review each mat and document the age divisions and weights that are wrestling on each mat. After I do this, I start assigning officials to each mat. I assign 3 officials for 2 mats. If I am familiar with officials, I try to assign them to mats where the competition is similar to what they would have seen throughout the season. i.e. – officials that work a lot of High School to the mats where we have the high school or U14 competitors.
There are other officials that are comfortable with the smaller 8 year olds; I try to assign them to this division. As you could imagine there is huge difference in the way an 8 year old should be officiated as opposed to a high schooler. As I go about assigning, I visit with the officials to determine if they are comfortable with the assignments. I always try to assign experienced officials with officials have never worked the state tournament before; I also do this in the finals. I do this to allow the official to be comfortable with the ability of the wrestlers on their assigned mats. Throughout the day I observe and if necessary move an official to a mat that better supports their experience gives them an opportunity to succeed. Sometimes I do not recognize this in a timely manner and it causes problems.
The state tournament is a very unique environment. As the day progresses, I get multiple inquiries on rule clarification, (from both officials and coaches), people want me to watch a video of an earlier matches, grievances based on calls or situations, etc. The way that I handle grievances is to take the official to the middle of the mat, have them explain the situation; explain the criteria they used to make the call, and ensure that the rules are being followed based on the criteria. In most cases this is all I have to go off of, we can discuss the issue, but very rarely can we overturn this based on what information is provided.
I know for a fact that the officials that were selected feel honored and privileged to represent their districts at this tournament.
Keith Ashpole

Thank you Keith for your comments...the Kids Executive Board and the State Tournaement Committee appreciate all that you do. For those who do not know, Keith was again selected to be the State Official for 2013/14.

I too have been listening to all of the comments and suggestions in this thread. Some of them have been legitimately constructive; but many have been mean spirited and outright slanderous. In any public forum there is a protocol that we should follow. When addressing officials at the table (or in a public forum) I think the more constructive and less slanderous you can be your chances of getting the result you want will increase. If you are trying to get a call overturned, your chances are diminished if you come off as hostile towards those you are petitioning. I am not saying that we as coaches shouldn’t advocate for our athletes…some of us just need to tone it down a bit. Your approach and how you make your argument will naturally impact the success you ultimately have in trying to influence a reversal of any call…no matter how right you think you are.

Personally I am not sure which side I come down on with the different suggestions that have been floated in this thread about how officials are selected for the state tournament. I am still mulling over all of the pros and cons to your suggestions. But here is what I want you to do this year. If you have a complaint or want to reward an official from this year’s tournament with a letter of commendation, please email me as much detail as you can which supports your position and copy Keith Ashpole. Over the next couple weeks, I am going to ask Keith to grade this year’s State Officials individually and as a group by District. These complaints and Keith’s grades will not be shared with the membership at large. However, prior to selecting next year’s officials, Keith and I will share both his grade and any letters received with the District director whose district selected the official last year. This way if nothing changes and we still ask Districts to send in their selections next year the District director can share this information with their district membership if they feel it is applicable to the selection process…both positively or negatively.

The bottom line is…we all want good officials and for the most part I think our officials for 2012/13 did their job. If there is a small number who were out of their element then we should try to do better in our selection process. But I will stress that it is our job as coaches, club administrators, parents, and athletes to help make the best-of-the-best want to be a part of our organization. If OUR actions both on and off the mat is counterproductive to that effort then WE are part of the problem!

Thank you!

mark.stanley.ks@gmail.com
Keith.Ashpole@viachristi.org

I would support having an officials webpage with photo id. I believe this would help identify officials at a tournament, several officials do not have their number on their uniform, so finding out who they are may be a little tricky. I am an official and I have attached my photo to my posts and I encourage all officials to do so. I officiated nearly 1000 matches this year, but very few people actually know my name. I believe that I let my officiating talk for me as I do not "campaign" myself to try and persuade people that I am good enough to officiate state. I have thought about officiating state before, but have been turned off by the amount of politics there is in getting to officiate at state. I believe the current process seems alright, but could be tweaked a little. Maybe take 1 officiate away from each district and have an "at large" official get in. Either way, the way this forum is going after large tournaments(Salina and State)it is very irratating to listen to people blame the end of the world on officials. We try hard to make the most correct call, and make the day enjoyable for all. If you have a problem with the way officials are calling matches there are rules for handling the situation, yelling at officials and giving evil stares is not appropriate. I was fortunate not to have many of encounters like that this year. I officiated at Wichita and found most if not all coaches to be very polite and understanding. Thanks to all coaches for this year, in my experiences it was a good year. See all of you again in the fall.

Excellent post Mark. I had a new family this year that moved from Colorado. The Dad has helped me coach, he told me after the first tournament that in Colorado they don't pay officials for the tournaments and parents have to volunteer to officiate. That would be interesting. This time of year I always feel compelled to copy a post of Mike Juby's from several years ago. Here it is.

“Don't Blame the Ref “
By Ben Askren
The sport of wrestling is a "one on one" sport and most people involved take pride in that
aspect. However, to me, it seems many only keep it "one on one" when it seems convenient for
them to do so. What am I talking about? Blaming the referee!
How often do you hear "I got screwed by the referee?" Last week I heard the phrase from an 8
year old member of the club I help out with. It made me sick. Well I am here to tell you, by
blaming the referee you are taking the easy way out and degrading the sport.
I say this for a number of reasons. First, most refs are good natured and do their job to the
best of their ability. They don't get paid a lot and more often than not, they ref as a service to
the sport of wrestling. Which brings me to my next point; why are fans so out-of-control in
regard to referees? Refs are trying to do a good job. The next time there is a questionable call,
be quiet and listen to those around you. Most likely you will be thinking "Wow. These people
are crazy" or "Man, these people sound stupid." Well, guess what, you sound the exact same
way. Next time, as a fan, you feel the need to scream an obscenity at the top of your lungs,
DON'T! It really isn't necessary and isn't fair to the referees. How would you like it if someone
came to your job and screamed obscenities at you and told you, you sucked?
There is a wrestling referee shortage in America, and it is the fans fault. Give refs a break, and
use your energy to support your wrestler instead.
As a wrestler, the reason to not to blame the referee is simple. It is your fault you lost, not the
refs. So often, it is sickening to see wrestlers waiting for overtime or double OT and the flip.
That concept is foreign to me. I figure if you wait that long you deserve to lose the match. I
have a simple philosophy that prevents me from blaming the referee. If my match is close
enough where the ref can make a difference then it is my fault I put him in the equation. I
strongly believe all wrestlers should think this way. If you have a problem beating people by a
lot, the answer is simple: Work Harder. I have never seen Cael Sanderson or Alexander Karelin
whine about the call of a ref. Did you? Wrestlers, do your jobs! Take responsibility for what you
do and don't blame someone else.
Next time you are at a wrestling meet, relax, cheer for the wrestlers and don't heckle the
referee. Rather applaud (not literally) his effort.
Wrestlers, next time the ref makes a questionable call, think of where you could have worked
harder and be mad at yourself instead.
Good job refs! Have fun everyone.
Ben Askren, Volunteer Assistant Coach, University of Missouri
Olympic Team Hopeful
2 X NCAA D-I Champion
2 X NCAA D-I Runner-up
2007 ESPY Nominee for Best Male Athlete
2 X Dan Hodge Trophy Winner
3rd on NCAA Pin list with 91 falls
2 X Wisconsin High School State Champion

Thanks Keith,

OK boys....I am going to make one post on this topic...First, a little about me since very few of you know me: Coached 20+ years as a Rules 10 at 2 H.S.s, coached at 2 Jr Highs, was a Kids Coach & Head Coach of the Manhattan Kids Club for 10 years, am Bronze certified and was at one time certified to put on Bronze Cretification Clinics (THANKS Randy H :))This all doesnt matter but with so few posts, I am sure someone will say, "who the hell is he"

You can ask around and I was HARD on officials but I don't hold a candle to the B.S. I see at Kids Tournaments today...Parents & Coaches SCREAMING at officials at a Sunday Novice Tournament, Coaches telling wrestlers, "the ref screwed you", Chewing a ref's A$$ in front of his wreslter, Griping about a call from the week before, the conduct I see is INSANE.

You can rate, rank and get whatever officials you think deserve to be at State and I realize that is what this post is about but all you all better know you ARE running good young officials out of the sport.

My son has been fortunate to have a very good HS Official, Mark Wallace, take him under his wing. He has also had the good fortune of some top notch coahces help correct errors he has made on the mat...This occurred when he was officiating HS.

I saw some suggestions in this thread about taking the officials test, and officiating some matches...Try it boys...It is NOT as easy as it looks...I would also encourage you to go to some HS matches...I don't think I have ever seen a coach or a parent standing mat side SCREAMING at an official for an entire match...Lastly, Buy yourself a rule book and LEARN it and carry it in your pocket. It is tough for an official to deny something if you open the book and show it to them.

Good luck to all of you and I hope you get what you want for STATE but you all better realize you have bigger problems than that...My boys have both graduated from HS and moved on but I care about the sport

You can PM if you want to talk.

What about this:

Official Selection - Each district votes for their own head official

That elected official then selects his 6 officials to officiate the Kids State Tournament - the head official is in charge of his own officials and will be rated by marks from coaches or other officials

For Example purposes, DAY 1:

District 1 consists of:
Referee #1 - ALL DAY
Referee #2 - 8-noon
Referee #3 - 8-noon
Referee #4 - 8-noon
Referee #5 - Noon-Finish
Referee #6 - Noon-Finish
Referee #7 - Noon-Finish

District 2 consists of:
Referee #8 - ALL DAY
Referee #9 - 8-noon
Referee #10 - 8-noon
Referee #11 - 8-noon
Referee #12 - Noon-Finish
Referee #13 - Noon-Finish
Referee #14 - Noon-Finish

District 3 consists of:
Referee #15 - ALL DAY
Referee #16 - 8-noon
Referee #17 - 8-noon
Referee #18 - 8-noon
Referee #19 - Noon-Finish
Referee #20 - Noon-Finish
Referee #21 - Noon-Finish

District 4 consists of:
Referee #22 - ALL DAY
Referee #23 - 8-noon
Referee #24 - 8-noon
Referee #25 - 8-noon
Referee #26 - Noon-Finish
Referee #27 - Noon-Finish
Referee #28 - Noon-Finish

Officials # 1, 8, 15, 22 are head refs and will be observing or filling in

from 8-noon, (just a number) referees # 2,3,4 - 9,10,11 - 16,17,18 - 23,24,25 will all be present to work mats (12 total)
Then from noon-finish, referees 5,6,7 - 12,13,14 - 19,20,21 - 26,27,28 will be present to work

If for whatever reason a district doesn't have enough officials to assign, the other districts can bring in to fill the positions unmanned

For Example purposes of DAY 2:

District 1 consists of:
Referee #1 - ALL DAY
Referee #2 - 8-11 - CHAMPIONSHIP MATCHES
Referee #3 - 8-11 - 3rd & 4th PLACE MATCHES
Referee #4 - 8-11 – NOT SELECTED
Referee #5 - 11-Up to placement bouts - CHAMPIONSHIP MATCHES
Referee #6 - 11-Up to placement bouts – NOT SELECTED
Referee #7 - 11-Up to placement bouts - 3rd & 4th PLACE MATCHES

District 2 consists of:
Referee #8 - ALL DAY
Referee #9 - 8-11 – NOT SELECTED
Referee #10 - 8-11 - CHAMPIONSHIP MATCHES
Referee #11 - 8-11 - 3rd & 4th PLACE MATCHES
Referee #12 - 11-Up to placement bouts - CHAMPIONSHIP MATCHES
Referee #13 - 11-Up to placement bouts – NOT SELECTED
Referee #14 - 11-Up to placement bouts - 3rd & 4th PLACE MATCHES

District 3 consists of:
Referee #15 - ALL DAY
Referee #16 - 8-11 – NOT SELECTED
Referee #17 - 8-11 - CHAMPIONSHIP MATCHES
Referee #18 - 8-11 - 3rd & 4th PLACE MATCHES
Referee #19 - 11-Up to placement bouts - 3rd & 4th PLACE MATCHES
Referee #20 - 11-Up to placement bouts - CHAMPIONSHIP MATCHES
Referee #21 - 11-Up to placement bouts – NOT SELECTED

District 4 consists of:
Referee #22 - ALL DAY
Referee #23 - 8-11 - CHAMPIONSHIP MATCHES
Referee #24 - 8-11 - 3rd & 4th PLACE MATCHES
Referee #25 - 8-11 – NOT SELECTED
Referee #26 - 11-Up to placement bouts - CHAMPIONSHIP MATCHES
Referee #27 - 11-Up to placement bouts - 3rd & 4th PLACE MATCHES
Referee #28 - 11-Up to placement bouts – NOT SELECTED

Do the same shift-work as day 1 and get a guesstimate (I think the placing matched took place around 1 or 2) of how long officials will be working (8-11 then 11-2)

During the intermission from the regular bouts to the placement bouts, the head referees will then tally their scores for each ref, and determine which of their top 10 officials (i know 2 districts will be short since the placement bouts have 2 refs per mat) based on their overall score from the amount of marks that ref has. The top 2 officials from each district officiate the Championship matches - the other 2 in line by markings total, officiate the 3rd & 4th place matches

This way, the referees are responsible for their selections and accountable for their own District and everyone can see who is/is not available for the placement matches

Good god Jimmy - That took some time to put together.........Nice job!

Bret

Thanks Bret

Mr. Stanley, Mr. Ashpole, does my idea sound logical? I know there are some flaws, but overall doable and fair - Ideas anyone?

Jimmy,

You're in effect doubling the expense of hiring officials. Along with that would be double mileage and hotel rooms? All that stuff adds up big time, how will the state cover the added expenses?

My mileage alone was over $150 and I wasn't the farthest one away, so keep that kind of stuff in mind. Also you will be sacrificing consistency in matches switching officials so much and maybe that won't matter to most.

Why bring up the expense of things???

If it would guarantee that STATE TOURNAMENT would have the best of the best officials on hand, I would more than gladly pay an extra fee (as many would) at the beginning of the year to help compensate those "additional expenses" - I bet you really didn't think this out before you responded... If I (we) as a parent(s) pay THOUSANDS of dollars per year to make our kids better wrestlers, then we should deservingly expect to have the best officials at the state tournament. Correct??? Money is a scapegoat.

How about this then... There were 165 teams this year at state, if we told each club we were going to bump up the club costs/fees to 20 dollars more per year I guarantee that ANY serious club in the state would gladly pay that extra amount - That itself would almost cover a hotel stay for all 28 referees (it would only be like 20 rooms) - Also try and find a way to use the "late addition" or "late weight change" penalty fees.This thread was created for the sole intentions of finding out how the coaches and referees can get along better and respect one another. Not to discuss finances.

Consistency??? Obviously you weren't on MAT 3 or 8 all day...

I think that there are some great suggestions being offered.

Using your presentation there is still an opportunity for errors. If there is one official, calls could still be missed, calls can be missed with 2 officials. Sometimes officials cannot attend or do not want to attend the tournament due to the travel, time involved and/or difficulty of the tournament. How would other districts feel if they did not have equal representation? i.e. - 10 officials from a single district.

Officials are required to attend a KSHSAA rules meeting and take an online test. There are also clinics offered throughout the state. None of this can replace on the mat, live competition experience. This experience can take a long time to develop. Kid’s wrestling is extremely difficult do to the environment, the expectations and nature of our sport. There are a lot of people that try to officiate and quickly realize that it is not an easy job and abandon officiating. There are lessons learned every week. Middle School, High School sub-varsity or, even High School varsity cannot fully prepare you for a kid’s tournament.

KSHSAA has kicked around the idea for an officials ranking system for a while. Personalities, friendships, prejudices, etc, can come into play and affect objectivity, this is human nature. Here are some ideas for ranking or grading criteria – how many individuals have the knowledge or experience to grade officials.

How many coaches and even some officials could rank officials on these basic fundamentals, there could be other grading criteria added. There is more to becoming a capable official that meets the eye.

Appearance
On time
positioning
Communication
mechanics
Rule Knowledge
Rule Application
Issue Handling


Ideas
A list of officials that are being used every week can be posted. This could be supplied by the lead official or the tournament director. I could post the names and official numbers. I am hesitant on posting pictures, I’m not sure other officials would be receptive of having their pictures published either.

In the past we had been issued patches with official numbers to attach to our shirts that would assist with identifying the official. These numbers are still assigned. The problem with this is that if a young official only had 1 shirt they might have to remove the patch prior to working other events.

Some officials might not be certified. We would only have a name. Maybe you could request the hometown or phone number. Someone could do a follow-up to encourage them to become certified. I am doing this in district 2 currently.

Hire enough officials to have 2 officials on every mat at the state tournament.

Things to consider:
As an official we do not care who wins the match. Our concern is to call the match fairly to the best of our ability, ensure that rules are enforced and followed to the best of our ability, and insure that no one is put in a situation that could cause injury.

Officials are not perfect. Consider how many calls are made in a normal match and multiply it by this number of matches in a day. There will be hundreds of calls made. Then add the pressure of the State Tournament to this. Some of these are going to be easy, some difficult. Coaches, parents, and wrestlers expect calls and points to be awarded quickly. There is usually not time to stop and consider or think through the calls, our sport is based on action and reaction, in a good match, things can happen very quickly.

Thoughts
• This must be a partnership, both parties need to work together to provide solutions.
• We are short of officials throughout the state.
• It is difficult to develop and retain good officials due to the environment that has been created.
• If you do not notice an official all day long, he is performing an outstanding job.
• Do you just acknowledge officials that make good calls (maybe in your favor).
• 1 or 2 bad calls (or calls you do not agree with) do not make a bad official.
• Consistency is important, even if there is a bad official if they are consistently bad you know what to expect.
• If you were performing to the best of your ability, and there were issues, how would you feel if your name was posted so anyone in the state can see it and comment about any issues – real or perceived that occurred.
• If an opposing coach knows that call was incorrect, show some integrity and inform the official the call was incorrect and refuse the points awarded. (Let’s see how that flies).

I attend the state body meeting and the D2 meeting. I would welcome the opportunity to attend your district meetings. I had discussed with the board assigning a lead official for every district. I will bring this up again. I also try to send an outline to lead officials that I know of, that can be reviewed prior to competitions with the officiating crew.

With our current system it is important to vote for yout district officials.

Keith Ashpole

I' m not sure about your statement Keith in which if you do not notice an official all day long he's probably doing a "good job".

We noticed just the opposite @ Middle School State in which most of all your characteristics of an exceptional official on the lighter weight mats where he was officiating were present....the younger guys were trying their best to emulate him. He was OUTSTANDING and the wrestlers were very aware that he had their best interest on his command of the match.

Thank you for helping lead the younger officials!!! Not sure of his name but an exceptional individual with a love of the sport!

Because it's important!!! Our club is already scholarshiping one or more kids state tournament expenses each year because their parents can't afford it. We don't need any added expenses and I'm sure many many clubs/parents feel the same. Besides, I broke my abacus trying to decipher your referee assignment formula.

I know it's important, but I'm not ignorant to the fact that if you want to play, you have to pay.

I have an abacus that was modified to accept about another 10 numbers if you want to borrow it

Not that my opinion matters, but until both OFFICIALS and COACHES are required to pass a written test, none of this matters. The Coaches are just as ignorant as the Officials. It is very difficult for an official to take an idiot coach seriously as it is for us to take an idiot official seriously.

There were over 1500 coaches bands given out this year. There were just over 1100 wrestlers. Do the math, 400 more coaches than wrestlers. TOO MANY MOMMA's with their t*&*%$ still in their kids mouths. Get off the floor, you have no idea what you are talking about. Your kid does not need you on the mat...especially since you don't know how to coach.

Until the State gets the idiot coaches off of the floor, idiot Officials will always have a place.

The number of Bronze Certified Mom's went up this year as well...

I guess it will just stay broke, this forum is just a place for us old farts to release some tension... Or add to it

Beeson they're is an old terminology for guys that make statements similar to yours. I will refrain. You don't think some "daddy's aren't in this same picture you paint"? Moison makes a good point more females acquiring coach's bands ~~# wristbands.

After > 30 years associated with wrestling, past 5 years with bronze cert. so I could be safety in the corner when we go to OK tournaments. I spend 8 full weeks and 1 in winter with a National Camp System & go to the OTC (COS) yearly. I would rather not be on the floor but have the best seat scoring a table except @ state. Like to be in the stands & my fellow coach's have always known this. Have an older 25 y.o. that wrestled for 19 years.

I feel for your ignorance Beeson in your quick remarks to categorize all Bronze females. I can certainly tell you a kids strengths & weaknesses when. scouting opponents although I don't film. As well I went through HS with a VB/BB coach like Rutgers Coach Rice. So I do agree with the p.....ification of todays athletes.

Sorry so Long, let's sign this one......
Petunia PIG.

My boys were on mats 9&11 the officiating was very good on both mats. I watched some matches on mats 1&2 the officials were very good IMO. Officials are human. They make mistakes. My son lost in overtime in the finals 2 years ago bc of a stalling call I did not agree with. My son lost the match end of story. It was not the refs fault. To say or tell your wrestler that you lost that match bc of the ref is lame. I believe that time is better spent training,instead of complaining. If the match is so close that one call decides it then the problem is solved by training & prepairing not sniveling & complaining.

AGREE 100% on the comment on IDIOT coaches....Interesting thing Manhattan Kids Club did when I was there,(Ned Price was Head Coach and gets all the credit for this...I was pi##ed but agreed to it), if you wanted to coach, you carried a clipboard and were teamed with an experienced coach your first season (there were exceptions, i.e. - I had a 3X state champ out of NE that wrestled at West Point walk in to practice and want to coach...HELL YEAH)...You also were NOT put on your son/daughters mat (coaches had assingned mats since we were taking 40-50 kids to tournaments every week)...You could go coach matside for your wreslter's match (AS THE SECOND COACH)...As soon as the match was over, it was back to your mat...You also went to practices and helped (none of this crap of showing up on Saturdays and not know the abilities of your wrestlers)...We weeded out the VLLLAGE IDIOTS and those that were only there for their wrestler very quickly...Some coaches actually stuck w not coaching their own wreslter past that first yr.

Couldn't agree more with this statement. (I would say it's both Mom's and Dad's but otherwise this is almost a perfect response to many of our issues.) Officials might not be so grumpy if they were not being berated by people that took a 1 day class and passed a background check.

In a perfect world, it would be nice if at the State Tournament, the only coaches permitted on the floor, were the ones of course holding the Bronze certification, and possibly a different color of USAW wrestling card (EX: Black designates state eligible, Yellow states, they have not completed 2 years of coaching under USAW) that basically states that the coach holding the card has been approved to be or not to be a state tournament coach at THE BEGINNING of the year by the HEAD COACH or CLUB PRESIDENT (which has to be when cards are purchased from Kathy), has completed 2 years of prior coaching while holding a USAW coaches card. Examples of situational ammendments are: A young coach that has no affiliations with a child wrestling (SON or DAUGHTER) that has wrestled in college or out of HS with experience (the head coach of the team/club will be the overall mediator/approver) This will help with several issues:

1. It will keep the floors at the state tournament clear

2. It will separate the newbie coaches from the veteran coaches

3. It will ease frustration with officials/coaches and possibly make the day a little more enjoyable for all

4. It will keep the mommy, daddy, grandma, grandpa, little or big brother/sister, aunt, uncle, friend, or anyone that doesn't know s$$t about the sport off the floor (nothing like coaching a kid all year to have dad barge in and take your place matside and coach his kid and noone elses or having mom or dad there with a video camera on the mat next to you elbowing you while yelling in your ear).

Together we can make this work!

Don't laugh, but here are my credentials if it makes a difference to some who may be thinking I am a hypocrite or a bigot:

Wrestled for the Topeka Tornados from 1979-1981
Wrestled for Chase Middle School in Topeka Kansas for 7th & 8th grade (8the grade took 3rd at the city tourney - no laughing I said!) = SUCKED
Wrestled for Highland Park High School and made it to state my sophomore year just because of an injured wrestler and they needed the points (as Andrew Dice may have said "they needed the points") = SUCKED - Basically I was a positive assistant (practice dummy) for my fellow teammates
Club president/coach for Topeka Blue Thunder 2007-2010
Assistant Coach for SH Thunderbirds 2010-2011
Assistant coach for Lawrence Elite Wrestling Club from 2011-present
Wrestled in the Sunflower State games in 2009 & 2010 only to find out how bad of shape I really was in
Have coached several national/state champions
Have 2 damn good sons as wrestlers/humans
Most of all, many parents that have loved me coaching their sons

I love the sport, and am only trying to help improve things for everyone, but mostly the kids

I wish there was a "like" button! Appreciate the commentary Moison!

Thanks Mark