D4 Sub-District Tournament

District 4 will be wrestling ALL age groups and weight classes including the HS division this weekend to qualify for Districts the next weekend. Even if there is only 1 person in your weight class, you must still show up and make weight.

There has been precedent set in past, not contrary to the bylaws, where this is NOT the case. Is this a Steve Woody ruling?

Originally Posted By: R. Scott Edwards
District 4 will be wrestling ALL age groups and weight classes including the HS division this weekend to qualify for Districts the next weekend. Even if there is only 1 person in your weight class, you must still show up and make weight.

That is the way it should be and always has been. Great job D4, although it sucks for you guys since your drive might be 4 hours to make weight just to get a medal and an empty bracket. Follow the rules!

You sir, are WRONG!

Absolutely NOT true DannyB. If you are in a bracket with 4 or less you may choose to get your weight certified by the District Director off site or at another competition. You may then default to 4th, 3rd, 2nd, or 1st depending on the number in your bracket. It was approved by the Executive Director and is NOT contrary to the Bylaws. I know this for a fact. It is RIDICULOUS for us to make a family drive any number of miles at $.58 a mile to weigh and collect a medal. This whole thing is beyond absurd. No one is looking out for the best interest of our wrestlers and families in D4. It is WAY beyond a time for change out there. ie, I can't wait to see the officials you bring...

Easy Hoss, I would have done that for several of the past years had I only educated MYSELF, however, why can't we satellite for subs, and district, with district official then? Same thing right? By-laws don't mean crap! I agree with you 100% why drive at $.58 a mile for a medal, or a hotel room, which cost $39.00 (at least where I stay). So let's have change, but let's do it with votes, in a meeting. And by the way what the hell does my officials have to do with this conversation?

THERE IS NO BYLAW that states that a District cannot have a remote or satellite weigh in.

Rule 4-5-1 & 4-5-3 All sanctioned tournaments will hold a weigh in. The weigh in procedures shall be determined by the tournament director. All participants shall have the opportunity to weigh in at the same time. No weigh in shall be prior to twenty four (24) hours before the published tournament start time. However, a novice only tournament
wrestled on Sunday may conduct its weigh in up to forty eight (48) hours before
the published tournament start time Wrestlers shall wear a competition style
singlet at weigh-in.


SEEDING MEETINGS Each district will establish a deadline, 10 days prior to the initial qualifying tournament in each District after which no additional entries may be made without paying a penalty fee of $50. At the seeding meeting, weight or age corrections or scratches may be made in all age groups, including walk-on wrestlers, prior to the start of seeding the wrestlers without requiring a penalty fee.
Additional entries may be made in writing one hour prior to the published start time of the seeding meeting, but any such entrant must pay a penalty fee. Once the seeding starts, no changes, or additions will be allowed except in the case of clerical errors by the tournament director.

5. Entry Fees for the qualifying tournaments and state tournament will be set each year by the State Body.
6. The District State Director and his/her two Assistant State Directors will determine the number of qualifiers from Sub-District to District. Each District will have this responsibility.

As you can clearly see, the District Director has the autonomy to determine weigh-in process without a Bylaw change. THERE IS NO BYLAW stating that on-site weigh-ins are mandatory. Below you will see that Dist 2 & 3 have the right to allow additional entries up to one hour before their seeding meetings which will be conducted the morning of the tournament. If a sub is not required then the District tournament becomes the initial qualifier. Past practice does NOT mean that it is clearly stated in the bylaws.

DannyB, yes you can have remote weigh-ins. Up to your District and tournament director.

What family year-in and year-out makes up a significant portion of the officials representing D4? HINT Dad, mom, daughters, brother-in-law.

Will - District II tried this in years past and was shut down promptly. I also know it was brought up at a State meeting the following year and was voted down.

I think it has to do with our officials because Mr. Cokeley wasn't happy with a call made by one of our officials at Hays. Hopefully I am wrong. It would be sad that all this talk about D4 has to do with hurt feelings and a way to get at that official. I guess I can take a hint he is upset with Woody. Which not sure why he is going after the whole family. Also not sure why he isn't as upset about D1 having subs. As for myself I live in western kansas I drive for everything. 30 minutes to Walmart , movie theater, shoe store and so on and so on. I have driven a lot longer to find a tournament with 14 and under in it just to get mat time. Don't worry about our drive time it is part of our lifestyle. We do what we need to.

There has never been a proposal to modify the Bylaws to eliminate the Director's control over weigh ins. Please feel free to find where it states we must perform an on site weigh in. I simply scanned through the Bylaws quickly when all of this went down. It is a tedious process because we have pages of language that is painfully detailed regarding discipline and special needs but only a few paragraphs outlining the procedures for qualifying tournaments.

I remember this vividly. We were told as a District we could not perform Satellite Weigh-ins. All the Districts were to follow the same rules. Apparently there needs to be a major overhaul of the by-laws. Those on the Executive Council that are not willing to participate in this Major Overhaul, this may be a good time for you to step down. You are hurting Kansas Wrestling in more ways than one. You are definitely not helping.

REALLY Will?
This thread has nothing to do with your opinion on our officials we select for state. You have always had a problem with our officials, this is only my opinion but I believe it is becuase they dont back down to you, and tell you to get off of the mat when you continue to argue a call or make a scene. I am sure the "official" comment is stimming from the call at our tournament (which I did not see) But I have heard from multiple people it could have went either way.

I do agree that it sucks that some of our families have to drive 3-4 hours to collect a medal, but that is common for us out here. Where do you draw the line on who has to show up. We have some 8U kids with only a few kids in the bracket should they just stay home as well?. I for one wish every bracket we had was a full 16-32 man every tournament, but reality is that doesnt happen anywhere in the state every weekend. It starts with parents, and clubs sending their kids to subs. There are many parents out there that dont want their kids to get beat out, so it is just easier to not go at all.

So lets stay on the topic of Subs and not on how a call did not go someones way at the last tournament.

Nothing to do with A call. Promise. I am not that shallow. It is about the history and the potential for conflict of interest. A need for change and closer scrutiny on the motivation for decisions. Integrity in your leadership as well. I could care less about one call in one match. This is about the greater good for all wrestlers and families. I am in this for the kids. Not my kid, all kids. How do we grow and make wrestling more appealing. When only 40% of your card holders are participating in your marquee series you have to ask the tough questions and say the things that everyone thinks and says behind the scenes. Transparency

It doesn't state on site weigh ins, but it has always been understood, and EVERYONE has followed the general protocol. Satellites where brought up at State meeting and shot down, mainly D1 didn't want them. Not saying it's their fault. Here is the problem, Kansas wrestling had an issue this year, RMN, district reps didn't want Kansas kids to miss out on neither RMN or Kansas State Qualifiers, so they made an exception to the rules at the last minute. Right or wrong, it only helps the RMN guys. Quit saying "trying to save everyone money" instead pass a satellite weigh in rule, that saves the whole State money not just a few. But do it at State Body meeting not right before qualifying series starts.

....

Originally Posted By: Matt Treaster 05/03/2012
Members:

Our board has made a concerted effort to make our sub-district and district tournaments uniform. I realize it is impossible to make ever last detail the same, but we must do what we can to make the major items consistent. Weigh-ins (and the requisite hair/skin/nail checks) are one of those major items. No satelite weigh-ins will be allowed for sub-district, district, or state tournaments.

Matt Treaster
Executive Director
Kansas Kids Wrestling

The numbers for 16U and HS have year in and year out have not grown. These groups are annually the leader in scratches at subs as well as the smallest number of participants. The elimination of subs for the HS division was largely supported in our fall meeting. However, USA Wrestling offered the $300 per team "deal" on USA Cards. Mike Juby put fear in the board and it was narrowly voted to TABLE instead of eliminate the subs until we had the NUMBERS. The motivations of the board were the very reasons you discounted. The ancillary benefit of other options and the freedom to choose were just icing on the cake. The FOCUS was to eliminate being held hostage for three weeks, NEEDLESSLY. You do realize in some cases where there are 2 or 3 in a bracket the same wrestlers could wrestle four times in two weekends. That is not good. When the numbers did NOT improve, and we knew this on the Wednesday before the seeding meeting, the question was why should we wait. Intuitively it seemed that parents would be happy not to have to travel an extra weekend so why wait another year when the Bylaws have the flexibility. The Colorado deal came along after this discussion and is just a tangential benefit for, really for all HS wrestlers not just a few. ANY KS HS wrestler could have signed up and wrestled in the RMN. Back in the fall no one knew what events were going to line up on what weekends. The issue isn't some conspiracy about favoritism for a few kids. The real issue is that the bylaws are very gray and written in such a manner that change is nearly impossible because it takes 2/3 vote and a year's notice. These changes were made within the Bylaws but the majority of people are uncomfortable with change. I know the board wants what is best for the kids but sometimes people let money, pride, ego, or the potential for conspiracy road blocking progress. The state body meeting is months away and another year of holding HS kids hostage for three weeks just didn't seem like it was in the best interest of those kids and parents.

Lets just look at the cost... In D4 there are 83 HS kids. Lets say 75% were going to travel an average of 100 miles to the sub. That is 200 miles times 62 kids or 6200 miles. That's $3500 in mileage. Lets say half those kids had to spend the night... That is another $1500. So just mileage and lodging it would be a $5,000 savings. The majority of people in wrestling have complained about the escalating costs to participate. We cannot just look at the hardcore we have to look at the majority and make the spending make sense.

Who knows when the RMN will be or whatever other tournament. The real foundation for this change was to reduce cost and the time parents and wrestlers had to spend in the gym. GUARANTEE you this was the driving force.

Every effort to make uniform? Really! Two districts have to qualify in 2 tournaments while the other two districts only have to qualify in one tournament to make it to State. What happens if there is a 32 or 64 man bracket at Districts in the two districts that can skip subs. Should of kept everthing the same throughout the State. On site weigh in, nail, skin and hair check is subject to judgement and can be misrepresented. Atleast Kansas is trying to keep something consistant. It will be interesting to see how many HS choose to stay home in D2 and D3 for subs and save all their money, and then go compete the next weekend for there chance to go to the STATE tournament, while the guys that wrestle at RMN will be getting plenty of matches. Good luck guys bring home a another Championship!

Rule 4-5-1 & 4-5-3 All sanctioned tournaments will hold a weigh in. The weigh in procedures shall be determined by the tournament director. All participants shall have the opportunity to weigh in at the same time. No weigh in shall be prior to twenty four (24) hours before the published tournament start time. However, a novice only tournament
wrestled on Sunday may conduct its weigh in up to forty eight (48) hours before
the published tournament start time Wrestlers shall wear a competition style
singlet at weigh-in.


As you can clearly see, the District Director has the autonomy to determine weigh-in process without a Bylaw change. THERE IS NO BYLAW stating that on-site weigh-ins are mandatory. Below you will see that Dist 2 & 3 have the right to allow additional entries up to one hour before their seeding meetings which will be conducted the morning of the tournament. If a sub is not required then the District tournament becomes the initial qualifier. Past practice does NOT mean that it is clearly stated in the bylaws.

DannyB, yes you can have remote weigh-ins. Up to your District and tournament director.

I am so confused, Mr. Treaster (Executive Director) says no satelite weigh-ins allowed for qualifing Tourneys, but Mr. Cokeley says there is "Nothing" in the By-Laws in a Sanctioned Tournament; Tournament/District Directors can weigh in however they want as long as it is not more than 24 hours before the posted start time of the tournament. Thanks Mr. Cokeley as I said earlier I always thought you were by the book.

Mr. Cokeley, I am D2 not 4, and yes I agree, even in D2, politics, who knows who, where your from, gets in the way of better judgement for better officials. D2 has sent ref's to State that refereed less than 4 tourneys all season and yes they sucked. But hey, don't let the ref's make the match changing calls. Not much you can do about it, if it's voted on by all the Dist. coaches.

Mr. Cokeley, the information you give is enlightening. My question is how is this just D4 directors fault. Also what do Lisa , Sara , Rachel and Brian have to do with it. We send the officials that we vote on. They don't call us and ask us to vote for them. If I remember right one of the girls was voted in as an official in another district also. So how is that D4's fault. Is it D4 as a hole you don't like or just the director?

Will,
If you are so concerned because we have certain officials that get voted in every year. Maybe you should officiate and see if people vote you in. Also if you are questioning our picks and if they are legitimate, I am sure the results of the votes are tallied, and saved. But honestly I dont see where the state by laws say we or anybody else in the state should have to answer to the Will Cokeley, when he questions us.

If everyone wants satellite weigh ins it can be accomodated NEXT year. Simply write up a proposal and email (as well as mail) it to Matt Treaster. You just need to cover all of the details on how it will be done. The schedule has to be consistent, certified official, certified scale, etc. It was NOT defined this year and if you want a state tournament series to be credible you have to have standardization and consistency. That is the only fair way to operate a series. If your proposal is credible and supported by 2/3 of the state body then next year we will have satellite weigh ins for state. We cannot just change the rules at the last minute this year. Sorry.


Edited by Cokeley (07/03/12 08:03 PM)
_________________________
Will Cokeley
(708)267-6615
willcokeley@gmail.com

bump

I assume the cut and paste response would be: "We cannot just change the rules at the last minute THIS year. Sorry." (2012)

The by-laws say nothing about just changing the rules at the last minute in 2014.

Not changing the rules, as Mr. Cokeley has stated, "no where in the By-Laws does it state that we have to weigh in on-site", however it does state that we will have two qualifing tournaments before State. Like you just said, qualifing series have to be standardized and consistant. They are NOT this year (2014)! Remotes will never happen, people are to scared of cheaters. Then you go to seeding meetings, you find kids that are ranked AA (State Placer) and they didn't make it to HS State 2 weeks before that seeding meeting and when you look back at their profile they haven't placed at State.

I don't want or want to see satellite weigh ins for the state tournament series. Wrestlers need to show up at the host sites make weight and pass the skin, hair, and nail checks! It's real simple. Just deal with it.

Mark Baldwin

But it's ok for 2 districts to skip subs while 2 districts have to qualify at subs. If the State body agrees "no remotes" that's fine, but every district will follow, if the State body agrees "no Subs" that's fine, but atleat Kansas Wrestling will ALL be consistent.

My take on this is similar to Obama, with the stroke of a pen, delaying the implementation of Obamacare. It is the best thing to do (other than throwing the whole thing in the trash), but it hacks me off that he can just change a law passed by congress, without voting on it. But I laugh it off, because it is better that things are delayed.

This new deal with no subs for HS kids is the same thing. It isn't hurting anyone, gives more kids the chance to wrestle, but it is kind of last minute, and I can see why people are upset.

But if someone can tell me who is being hurt by this, I'm all ears. And if my kid wins state in a bracket where the toughest guy wasn't able to participate because of our lack of willingness to open up more opportunities, then it is a shallow win.

It's one thing if a HS kid doesn't want to wrestle the kids series, but it is another if he wants to, but also wants to represent Team Kansas at the RMN. I would have loved for my son to have been able to do both the last few years, but we made a choice, because we had to make a choice. Having both options available is better for everyone IMO.

The other thing I hope this does is, by giving the HS kids another week to enter (actually 2 weeks) they might start getting the bug to wrestle again. A lot of them are worn out mentally and physically after the HS season, so when you give them 4 days to enter subs, a lot of them say "I'm sick of it" and don't enter. Maybe more of them will wrestle with this break and a longer entry deadline.

Speaking of which, why don't we just change the deadline for subdistrict entry to 11 am the day of the seeding meeting? YOu will catch any mistakes that morning, just like you can make changes now at the seeding meeting.

My two cents worth.

Doug, All the points you make are valid and if enough of our membership feels the same way then we can get them voted in.

Why don't we just announce that on Saturday, March 29th all comers are welcome to come to the Expo and toe the line. First man to the center of the mat gets to stay in the center until someone defeats him. At 4pm on Sunday, March 30th whoever is in the center is awarded the plaque naming them toughest dude in Kansas.

No rules on who registers at all! I bet we would sell some tickets for that and I am not sure who is hurt by it. The good that would come of it is every division would be on a full mat and even if we add 6U you are only talking 6 mats we have to set up.

How about the 8, 10, 12 or 14&U kid who had to choose between the sub district tournament or RMN.

I don't disagree with not requiring the HS division to wrestle subs. But the timing of this decision/ruling and the manner in which it was implemented was HORRIBLE. It automatically drew the attention away from what is good about it and focused all the attention on what's the angle / who is benefiting from it.

Another problem in today's world is people that dramatize and exaggerate to try to sell their stance on an issue...

I agree with you Doug that this is a good decision, and luckily for D2 and D3 it was....... buuuuut, what if a select few decided something not so good for your District or even the entire State for that matter. The next time it might be a bone head decision. We have processes and procedures in place to help protect us from people in power making decisions on the fly. This whole topic seems shady to me.

It does need thrown in the trash. Directly after seeding meeting when brackets where posted there where no combined brackets, now there are 3 in our subs. My son's bracket goes from a 6 man to a 4 man RR combined. Your correct, nobody hurt, he still gets 3 matches. I agree with you completely on all your points and am very happy to see that the wrestlers that are going to RMN, still get to wrestle the State series. It will be an interesting number for HS this year vs previous years. It bugs me that 2 dist. are not consistent with the other 2 dist. And the excuses they keep giving for their decision on this matter. "Saving people money". So what about the people that have to drive 2 hrs to subs (no satellite) to weigh in on Fri night yet their kid doesn't wrestle until the afternoon. They have hotel expense now, just sleep in till 11. Of course you guys don't have to worry about this at your subs. I don't give a shit about the boards decision's all I know is my son said he wanted to wrestle in kids club after HS, but I am tired of hearing the BS excuses from the people who made these last minute changes. This change should of been made across Kansas and it's not, keep in mind our executive director wants to be consistent. We "Kansas" have a lot to think about before next season.

That was part of the point I was making using obamacare as an example. If I personally thought what was happening was going to hurt someone, I wouldn't be so passive about it. (delaying obamacare with the stroke of his pen actually is a good thing, they can delay it for 100 years, and I won't care)

I agree, if it was something that would hurt someone, I would be raising hell. But let's be honest, I don't see anyone trying hurt anyone here. If District 2 decided to give all of our kids 3 lbs allowance, or something like that, obviously, this gives an advantage to a select group.

I don't have my head in the sand, I know it could have been handled better. Sounds like it was attempted, but tabled, for an excuse that didn't make sense. (wanted to get rid of subs for HS, but someone said we can't do that because our numbers are going to be way up this year because USA wrestling offered the $300 flat fee all you can eat USA card buffet for HS teams....)

I'm actually a little jealous that this happened this year, a year after one of my sons could have been with Chief in Colorado.........he and I have had some spirited discussions about taking some of our best kids to Colorado instead of them being at Kids State with the little guys that look up to them..

ANyway, I haven't lost any sleep over it. But make it against the rules for us to tailgate in the parking lot at Topeka, and I'll come unglued!!

I know your head isn't in the sand! The Qualifing series is supposed to be consistent and uniform with each other, even though the District officials have the say of how their subs, and Districts are held, ran, qualifiers are moved forward. Then you have this season. It wasn't handled correctly. I'm sure you are jealous and you should be, your family had to make a decision Colorado or Kansas State Championships, it is great they can do both this season. This could have been voted on by the State body last Nov. (or even before that) not by district reps just before subs. But this is what they decided and one of the excuses was to save parents money by not having to qualify at subs. Excuses and BS, I will tell you what saves money, no I won't nobody wants them. We start our tailgating at subs and then districts. We do this to same money on dining, and with almost everyone loving split sessions, and Friday night weigh ins ONLY, my parents that are lucky enough to drive 120 miles to get to Qualifiers also get to purchase a hotel room, just to get to sleep in untill 11. They are so lucky:) It's not the USA card fees keeping the HS wrestlers out of the room after HS season, it mental, and physical. The kids are tired and want to be done, whoever thought of the $300 USA cards and told us it would bring more kids. Well I will just say "They tried". I bet if the USA cards where free we wouldn't see a 5% increase in HS wrestlers. Cutting subs won't get many more either. My suggestion for you is have another son and he will be able to attend both.

He has another son, and pretty decent wrestler. The problem is he isn't that tough. He let a broken collar bone keep him out of competition for a couple months once. I thought Eck's were tougher than that. Doug must be getting soft in his old age.