6U vs HS

These always get brought up as opposing forces, as if we can only have one and not the other. I want to challenge that thought here and focus on being inclusive.

Do we need to eliminate High School? I don't think so if we think about "State" differently.

Why is this even a concern?
I've heard many mention removing the HS divsion mostly in the same breath of adding 6U. We all know the current size of the state tournament is at it's limit unless we add a day or get a bigger facility. In an ideal facility we would be able to have 6U-HS & Girls all under one roof on the same days on bigger surfaces than we wrestle on today! Until we adjust the format of state or get a bigger building we have to look for compromises. As an alternative, how many would be willing to wrestle a 3rd day at state if it were required?

My Proposal:
Have the High School Kids State as a tournament on it's own and include the 6U in our normal state series. The HS tournament could be done along side the Middle School & Elementary Qualifier if needed where big brackets are the norm.

Why do it this way?
Membership
The 6U group has been our largest membership across the state. It seems we send an odd message to those members they are good enough to wrestle through the year in their own age but for state they must move up. I know they have the 6U state tournament in Salina but again the message seems odd; telling our youngest competitors they must wrestle through the largest brackets to become a champ. It's quite inconsistent.

The 6U have been wrestling through the entire season whereas the High School wrestlers are with us for a few weeks.

Bracket Sizes
The "6U State" bracket sizes are large enough (64 Man and below) it seems a qualifier makes sense. Having the HS wrestle small brackets (even at districts) and 6U wrestle large, seems opposite traditional thinking. Removing 6U from the 8U during state series will level bracket sizes in 8U to some extent.

I've always said I operate under the basic boundaries:

-Does it hurt kids?
-Does is improve current opportunities?
-Does is create new opportunities?

With the above, I don't see why we'd need to consider removing the HS division and why we couldn't add the 6U. I know HS has a large amount of scratches however I think of the HS as a continued development division for those that want it and not a grand state that some envisioned. I think the coaches/parents want the grand state more than the kids do.

I personally wish there were more "Open" tournaments that allowed for college, retired or otherwise to compete. If you've been to the Sunflower State Games and seen those guys go at it; it's quite the sight.

I am not the best person to review the details of state, but this has to be one of the best presentations of Kids State that I have heard in the last few years. It will be really interesting to hear what many think. I like including the 6U and I like including the girls.

I would love to see the 6 and Under and girls in!!! That would be awesome. We could make this happen this way. Right now we have the break down for many of the weights at 3 lbs. Why not increase this to 5 pound breakdowns? It will make fuller brackets and make the wrestling better.

I have soften my stance on removing HS from the State Series..I am more inclined to say lets leave it in and include the 6&U..I think you bring up some very valid points and things to consider but I would also add that I wonder what impact it would have if we ran than the State Tournament as a split session tournament. Would we still need to add a day to the tournament?

Split session could improve the size of the surfaces we wrestle on, not sure it would allow for an inclusion of another age group. Nothing I couldn't calculate though. We'd certainly run longer on Sunday.

I like the idea of U6 having their own State in Salina and ending their season earlier than older kids. The season is long enough and I personally would not have my 6 wrestle through March. I see a lot of kids burning out wrestling them so much at younger ages.

Kids do not get burned out for wrestling a lot of matches. There is only two reasons a kid gets burned out from our sport. Either #1. They are losing all the time and as they get older they understand they are not really that good at this sport. Or #2. Either their parents or their coach are treating them differently after matches depending on the outcome of the match win or lose. #2 in my opinion pushes more kids out of the sport.

Chris Stivers

I stand by my opinion, 6 yr olds don't need to wrestle for 5 months, period! If you choose otherwise, fine. My boys are multi-sport and will remain that way. My 8 is ready to move on to soccer, of course he's pumped for District Championships and State, now, 3 weeks ago he was ready to be done!

I would love to see all divisions wrestle under one roof. My family would not mind going another day. I think the weight class should be changed for the 6 under and 8 under. Every three pounds is too much. Every 5 or even 10 pounds would be fine. This is coming from a Dad/Coach of a big kid. Who has always wrestled kids 10 to 20 pounds heavier than him. Love listen to people complain about brackets that got combined and there kids having to wrestle kids five pounds heavier than their kid. I don't see five pounds being that big of deal.

Josh Parker

Moving the date of USA Wrestling Folkstyle State Tournament Series will not change the length of the Kansas season. Clubs will start practices earlier, more tournaments will be held in November and December, January and State will be in February. For the majority of the wrestlers nationwide - folkstyle is the style, Kids, HS, and on the College Level. There will be conflicts with kids ending other fall sports/activities, soccer, football, middle school stuff,


6 & U VS HS

These always get brought up as opposing forces, as if we can only have one and not the other. I want to challenge that thought here and focus on being inclusive.

Do we need to eliminate High School? I don't think so if we think about "State" differently.

1 State Folkstyle Tournament Series and 1 State under the same roof on the same weekends. Even if it is a day longer - it will be cheaper holding it at the same facility. Compared to having mutliple state tournaments. This year I have counted 4 different folkstyle style state tournaments. I think using the USA Wrestling age groups for our State Tournament makes sense to me. It could also be our qualifier for the Elementary and Middle School Dual traveling teams. If there is a problem with the coaches choices of the dual teams hold a Wrestle Off/Challange Match weekend. We have the debate every year about 1A-3A, 4A, 5A, 6A on the HS level - as to many classifications. OK - we can do that as a USA Wrestling affiliate - use the National Body's weights and age groups. Enter the qualifiers place top 4, and move to the next level.



Why is this even a concern?
I've heard many mention removing the HS divsion mostly in the same breath of adding 6U. We all know the current size of the state tournament is at it's limit unless we add a day or get a bigger facility. In an ideal facility we would be able to have 6U-HS & Girls all under one roof on the same days on bigger surfaces than we wrestle on today! Until we adjust the format of state or get a bigger building we have to look for compromises. As an alternative, how many would be willing to wrestle a 3rd day at state if it were required?

My Proposal:
Have the High School Kids State as a tournament on it's own and include the 6U in our normal state series. The HS tournament could be done along side the Middle School & Elementary Qualifier if needed where big brackets are the norm.

The Middle School and Elementary Qualifier is a wrestle off for national dual team (The states more advanced wrestlers) and the teams can be picked from the "One State Tournament Series". Why does Middle and Elementary School ages get 2 state tournaments? I love the national duals nothing wrong with taking teams to represent our state.


Why do it this way?
Membership
The 6U group has been our largest membership across the state. It seems we send an odd message to those members they are good enough to wrestle through the year in their own age but for state they must move up. I know they have the 6U state tournament in Salina but again the message seems odd; telling our youngest competitors they must wrestle through the largest brackets to become a champ. It's quite inconsistent.

The 6U have been wrestling through the entire season whereas the High School wrestlers are with us for a few weeks.

No debate on the size of our pool of "Beginners" 4 to 6 year olds turning 7. It is our largest membership at the beginning
of the year - but without a doubt it is most likely the age group that we also lose the most (lost forever) from at the beginning of the year to the end of the first year (I am not only talking about the state placers in this age group - the ones that get it handed to them as well we want to retain). Do the majority of them come back for a second and third year.
I think at some point we have to say enough is enough - lower the age group for the super competitive environment - STATE AND NATIONAL CHAMPIONS - we should be teaching theses kids skills, HAVING FUN in the sport and developing them.
I believe we need to develop and do a better job of RETAINING our numbers of kids at the ages from 10-18 and find a way for those age groups to bring another buddy to practice when they are in 6th grade. Maybe that could be a theme try "BRING A BUDDY" to practice and have some fun.


Bracket Sizes
The "6U State" bracket sizes are large enough (64 Man and below) it seems a qualifier makes sense. Having the HS wrestle small brackets (even at districts) and 6U wrestle large, seems opposite traditional thinking. Removing 6U from the 8U during state series will level bracket sizes in 8U to some extent.

OK this year their were 368 six and under participants(approximately 18% of the total 6&U group) and their parents that wanted to be a State Champion. Approximately 1,632(82%) of total 6&U membership card holders and their parents at that time of the year had had enough. It is that other pool with 1,632 wrestlers and parents that we need to do a better job of RETAINING as an organization and state body of clubs, coaches and voting members. Observing the 6&U brackets there were 10 brackets that were larger than 16 man brackets and 10 of the 6&U kids would have automatically qualified for a 16 man bracket.


I've always said I operate under the basic boundaries:

-Does it hurt kids?
-Does is improve current opportunities?
-Does is create new opportunities?

With the above, I don't see why we'd need to consider removing the HS division and why we couldn't add the 6U. I know HS has a large amount of scratches however I think of the HS as a continued development division for those that want it and not a grand state that some envisioned. I think the coaches/parents want the grand state more than the kids do.

I personally wish there were more "Open" tournaments that allowed for college, retired or otherwise to compete. If you've been to the Sunflower State Games and seen those guys go at it; it's quite the sight.
_________________________
Joe Knecht
(913) 259-4596

I have nothing to gain in this debate and personally no longer have a related dog in the fight. I am having this discussion for the long term viability for the sport of wrestling. I am from way back in the time - the 1970's and 1980's and some current parents think that generation only knew 2 moves. I have some news for you generation X's parents.
I have been watching the NCAA tournaments recently and there is not a move new to me that was taught to me by guys who wrestled in the 1950's, 1960's and 1970's. This sport has evolved some and has had new wrestlers but a lot has not changed. Did you know that High School participation numbers were higher in the 1970's and early 1980's when there were fewer classifications and fewer weights?


Next year Joe Knecht is my pick/vote District 1/State Person of the Year - he goes above and beyond helping this sport in a million ways. He is undoubtedly a life long passionate fan and supporter of the sport.


Sean McCarthy
(913) 579-1835 - cell

Here is a few points to think about. 1st when my son made it to state in between matches we as a dad son,watched the HS.How they handled winning,loosing.How they run moves,started off the whistle.There was tons more I pointed out. My son and the few that set ,wanted to be like that.In some cases.With out HS what would the kids look up to.Maybe the 6u refs trying to figure out the score?

2nd Most of the HS kids have put many many days in on the mat[in club] to be where they are at. Than there is the group of boys that see what club has done for there friends,that come in.I am not sure why any one would want to punish the HS kids for wanting extra.



Most all of the HS kids I know would be in club all year if they could. Many have stated that to us coaches.To me it is crap that the kids cant do HS and club.Also crap the HS coach cant help club.But I guess if the HS math teacher helped a 7th grader in math she/he should be fired also.

Charles Bradford

a 3 day state tourney wouldn't even cost us any more money if we weighed in at noon, started wrestling at 3 or 4, went til 8 or 9, then started our regular Sat and Sun schedule like we did before. Get 4 hours of wrestling in on Friday night would be all we would need, and we are still only staying at a hotel 2 nights. Start at 4, go til 8 gets you 50-60 matches in on each mat.

I like what Doug just said.