Losing Records in State Brackets by Class

321A
103- 3
112- 2
189- 1
215- 1
285- 1
Total- 8

4A
119- 1
125- 1
135- 1
145- 1
152- 1
Total- 5

5A
103- 3
112- 3
119- 1
125- 1
135- 2
140- 1
145- 1
152- 3
160- 2
171- 2
189- 3
215- 1
285- 2
Total- 25

6A
103- 4
112- 1
119- 2
125- 2
130- 3
135- 4
140- 2
145- 4
152- 1
160- 3
171- 1
215- 5
Total 32

321A 8 = 3.5% of qualifiers have losing records
4A 5 = 2.2% of qualifiers have losing records
5A 25 = 11.1% of qualifiers have losing records
6A 32 = 14.2% of qualifiers have losing records

So "Best" Class in '06-'07
4A
321A
5A
6A

These are based off the records in the State Brackets but I know they aren't all right, and I also didn't count the .500 records so these are truely losing records. Just thought since no one had done it yet this year I thought I would.

Curious as to the point of this topic?

It's just a break down of the losing records, I know it's a dead debate as to best class but just shows the number of losing records in the State Tournament.

yeah 4a is way tougher than any class

yeah right the top two teams in 5a could beat any other team
bishop carrol and st thomas bishop already beat goddard and andale not even close and norton would be pretty close but not that close.

I think it varies year to year weight class to weight class. Why not bring back a Grand State and see what class wins the most. There would be some fun matches to watch. Also the Senior Classic features 321A & 4A vs. 5A & 6A matches and they are usually really competitive.

CJ Wilson of Lincoln heads into the 3-2-1A State Tourney as a Regional Champ at 103 pounds with a record of 5-6. Credit Wilson for having a good regional tourney, but a 2-6 record before regions and a 5-6 record after - Sheesh!

I think the point he was making is 5A@6A coaches must be better at helping less experienced wrestlers improve and prepare for the postseason."It's not where you start it's where you finish."Otherwise just hand out trophies to the guys with the best records.

Less experienced? I think what it says is that bigger schools have more kids that want to play basketball based on the city way of life big schools deal with. It is sad that 5/6a teams have more people in their schools then some smaller classes have in their entire town. Not fielding full teams and seeing some situations of not even having to win a match to qualify for state is sickening!

but take the medal winners vs any other class by far

I'm not trying to start a fight... they are just numbers... I too beat this horse many times about who's better than who, the point is these are the records and they are just there to show this, I wasn't slanting the thing one way or the other. The "best" class thing was just the lowest number of losing records not the "best" class as terms of wrestling. They are just for fun enjoy them.... and I was bored tonight.

I'll take a guy that finishes 6th in 4a over a guy that finishes 6th in 6a.

Depth!

Let me tick everybody off, but 5th and 6th don't really count. You have lost twice you should be out of the tourney.

I'm going to take the bait. In what weight class will 4a have a tougher state champion than 5a or 6a?

152

i think it varies class to class...for example: i believe their are 3 wrestlers at 189 5A that would win any other classification.(mamie, elliot, evans)
you are probably correct about the 4A 152 bracket being tougher then the 5 or 6A. but the best 125lb in the state is probably tyler caldwell(6a).
i dont think their is much doubt that the keller brothers would win their respective weights in 4A.
depth wise you might have a bit of a point, but personally i think the champions in 5A and 6A are a littler stronger, or at least they will be this year.

This crap really gets old year after year after year! Is there really any wrestler that’s a loser? Isn’t there a common bond between men that have endured the rigors of a season from the first day of practice in kids program to their final match of their careers? To say these young men that have sub .500 seasons don’t belong! Shame on you! The majority of these guys belong just as much as you guys that are bashing them on these boards! Bronco what’s your JUCO record? Swayz what was you college record? You guys just don’t get it! Be happy for everyone that has an opportunity to participate in something they love! Get a clue!

Mark Miller

I think it depends if you are talking about the top 2 or 3 kids or depth. When you get into the top 2 kids or so I would imagine there is a good amount of balance since every class has its tough kids. When you talk about depth, such as getting into the 5th, 6th, 7th, etc. place kids. you may be able to say that class 4 is a toughest. I think really that argument could only be made once you start getting outside the top three or four in a class.

Maybe the point is that 5A and 6A brackets at regionals are 8 man brackets, while 4A and 321A brackets are 16 man brackets. All tournaments qualify the top 4. Although many smaller school brackets are not the full 16, neither are the 8 man brackets full. It stands to reason that wrestlers who would not qualify at a 4A regional could get through at a 5 or 6A regional. If you would like to argue this point you are certainly welcome to, but it would be a baseless argument.

CJ Wilson was battling injury all season and if I would cound his wins by forfeit, which I could have done but didn't, he would be 10-6 right now.

its obviously harder to qualify at 4A then say 6A. more kids, same amount of spots. but, i still think the very top of 5A and 6A is tougher then the 2 smaller classes, at least this year.

Worst. Topic. Ever.

Nice one Bronco.

In the past couple years I would of had to say that 4a and 321a where twice as strong as what 5a and 6a where. But this year the tide has turned. At the Garden City tournament Great Bend Liberal and Emporia all beat Andale.

I am officially 0-2 in JUCO competition.... and proud to say after today I believe I am walking away from the mat for good, I'm just not good enough to wrestle in college and I've finally realized that.

I think that you need to realize that Andale probably had 50 state tournament points transfer this year. That's a huge loss, and although they still have some great kids, they are not the team that they were or would be with them. I'm not sure, but I believe that Colby, Pratt and Goodland finished ahead of them at regionals.

records arent everything. i mean look at how weak of a schedule some teams have.

Alex,

It is hard for me to believe that you did not have a motive when you started this topic. Several years ago I did an analysis of the year in school of each of state placers by weight. As expected 103 and 112 had very large percentages of freshmen and sophomores as placers in contrast to 215 and 275 at the time that had very high percentages of juniors and seniors. I was not just trying to provide information. My motives were that I was trying to throw support about the need for more weight classes for heavier wrestlers and also to give support to a topic about whether it was just as difficult for a heavier wrestler to win three state titles as for a lighter wrestler to win four. I think most people reading this topic can see you had a motive in introducing the topic.

I agree with what you are saying here, Mark. Going to State is a great reward for all these wrestlers no matter what their record is. I also agree that none of these young wrestlers are losers. Anyone who steps on that mat is a winner. I noticed on my son's team that the 13 wrestlers who were 1st or 2nd at Regionals last weekend were all real happy for and proud of our one wrestler who finished fourth.

Another thing that I have noticed in my son's own division is that last year's state qualifiers really have improved their results dramatically this year. I believe that they really benefited from last year's state wrestling experience and it will show in their results at State this year.

Yes!

The former wrestlers who feel the need to drag down other wrestlers to assuage their own self worth due to their lack of success on the mat. I believe there are two of them on this topic.

After one year at Colby Community College and one year at Pratt Community College have you exhausted your two years of eligibility?

Have you given any thought to a possible career in chocolate?

oh ... snap!

No I currently have at least another year of eligibility left. I quit at sememster of my redshirt year so I may have another semester and a half left but I do not know.

Chocolate is a good choice but I'd rather deal with agriculture.

If it offends anyone that bad then please feel free to delete the topic.

Alex Ryan

Alex,

You don't have to apologize to these guys about your wrestling credentials. Not many care more about Kansas wrestling than you, and I don't know anyone your age who has done more for the sport in Kansas. You have tried collegiate wrestling, became a certified official, helped your local kids club, participated in the tag team benefits, posted regional results when the host site didn't and have made a lot of friends in the KS wrestling community. I know you weren't belittling any of the qualifying wrestlers and so does everyone else. Not sure what your critics college records were. Maybe they can tell us.

OK... I will agree with all that you just have stated. But lets say Alex by chance was awarded a wild card to juco nationals this last week and some one came along and made a post from another regional that Alex with his sub .500 record didn't deserve the opportunity to compete (indirectly)at the national level when his Coaching peers agreed to give him a chance. How would Alex and his team feel then? My point is to be happy for everyone that is living the dream! Not just stir the POO!

Parkwayred,

I appreciate what you are saying, and I know Alex wasn't trying to rain on anyone's parade. He was trying to start the old 4A is better than your A thread. I'm sure he would feel bad if anyone was personally offended and hadn't even thought about that angle. I was disappointed when moderators jumped in and started ridiculing him about his wrestling abilities.

I know I'm not an excellently skilled wrestler nor do I claim to be. I've put in my dues and my time in the past 6 years to wrestle both in high school and college, and now I must move on.

I've became a certified official and given back in all the ways I can.

I do what I can to get resutls and everything else out there as soon as I can. I tried to post the results for all our duals as I got them.

Maybe I will make a better Sports Information Director somewhere than a wrestler, coach, or official.

I am sorry I cannot please everyone and not everyone appreciates what I've done for the sport. I've given everything I can to it, and now there's no more. I've realized my time is over, a harsh reality to face but as time goes on so must I.

Alex

Also I fought knee problems at the beginning of the year and missed several opens due to them, then became healthy and wrestled at the FHSU Open, then for the UNK open I had some personal issues to resolve before break so I missed it. It took some time (over a month) for Doctor's to figure out I had ITBS (I.T. Band Syndrome).

I came back from Xmas break to only hurt my other knee. Which put me out for a week or two and by then challenge matches were over and thus I never got the chance to challenge, by no one's fault but my own.

There you have it, why I didn't wrestle very much.

I really don't see what the big whoop is? You posted facts not fiction or rumors, I never saw you imply one class is better but put up statistics about losing records, some people on this forum are getting a might touchy about things.

Vince I must ask why you think I have a motive? My brother no longer competes, I have graduated, and now wrestle with kids of all classes in college. What motive would I have except for pure boredom one night sitting in my apartment? It was just for people to see, plain and simple. They are of course as mentioned FACTS, not a debate, the numbers don't lie.

If you want a debate do a search and revive a post from I believe last year about it, there should be a quite lengthy debate about it. This was just numbers, everyone else started saying well *A is better than *A, not me.

Alex

Hey Alex, I still think you are a great guy! See you at subs. Maybe this year you can stick around for the after tourney festivities!

Really, it seems to me that you started off. This was at the bottom of your original post that introduced the topic:

If you read I put "Best" class.... take it however you want it...

People can interpret it however they choose. I didn't imply one way or the other. "Best" being a very subjective term with a meaning of your choosing...

And Kevin I'll try to stick around this year.... it sounds like it could be a good time. I'll be there the 28th of April for the demolition derby (If I can get my car done) too, and State JUCO scholar's bowl.

Alex, I didn't know you were a smarty pants. Good job!

Someone please delete this entire post. Alex your "motive" is to draw attention to yourself. Someone on this post asked you and this is the answer. I remember way back (several years ago)when you had a post about Clay Madden and you didn't think that Clay was that good, because he barely beat you in some tourney somewhere. This was a fact, he barely beat you and you are good about posting facts as this post is full of. But the TRUETH of the matter many years ago was that you probably wrestled the best match of your life against Clay and he wrestled probably the worst match of his life, but he still beat you and went on to win not 1, not 2 not 3, but 4 state titles. I think that makes him pretty good. But back to this post. You post something that nobody that is a true fan wants to read and your motive is to draw attention to yourself as are most of your posts.

Sometime facts and the trueth aren't even close.

Alex, I think just about everyone has a motive when they post something.

I commend you for all things that you have done to support wrestling and I encourage you to continue to do that. I am sure that you will.

I think the problem with this topic is that it does have the potential to offend a lot of people especially at a time that should be every special for them. I think you and I have some potential to learn something about posting from this topic. I have posted on topics that I felt strongly about and have unfortunately offended some people in the process. Richard will give me a harsh scolding when I do that and most of time I deserve it.

One group that easily could have been offended here are those wrestlers who qualified Saturday with records under .500. They worked hard to get there and are proud of their accomplishment. They should be very proud of their achievement no matter what their records. A topic like this can lessen that feeling for them. A lot of young high school wrestlers read these topics, so we have to be careful in what we say. It would have probably been better if you had said records under .500 and not referred to it as losing records. I think the timing would have been better too after the State tournament.

Two other groups that could take offense to this topic are all the wrestlers no matter what their records and coaches from 6A and 5A. They all work hard to become the best teams that they can be and they all want to do well at State.

Alex, I have been critical here but I have done it all myself in past posts. I really am trying to learn from this topic to be more careful in what I say so I do not offend someone.

In closing, I will say good luck to all the wrestlers, coaches, managers, parents and fans this weekend from 3-2-1A, 4A, 5A and 6A. Wrestle hard and enjoy this weekend. You have all had a great season.

how is the juco scholars bowl set up alex? is it still one question per topic or is it heavy on lit and history like NAQT style? scholars bowl earned me a free trip to New Orleans (before Katrina) for nationals, where i was throughly handled by Yale's undergrad team.

all of that didnt matter though after a few hurricanes in the French Quarter

Someone needs to go to scholars bowl and learn how to spell truth.

I don't recall Alex trying to get attention until someone questioned his wrestling ability. I also don't see why people are going after Alex so much. How many of the posters on here had already looked through the records of kids, and made mental notes of the kids with sub .500 records? I know I'm guilty. And if Alex wouldn't have posted it, I'm pretty sure someone else would have.

Nice catch.

Which part?

It is a one question per topic but you have the chance at "bonus" questions (1-3 questions)... so to answer your question it's changed a little but not too much.

I didn't call for attention to myself, do I ever ask for recognition? Do I promote myself on the talk forums anymore? This is the most I've posted in over a year.

Mr. Broeckelman, I respect Norton as a team, my roomate here in Pratt is from Norton. I do however have a problem with you as a person, trying to live your glory by trying to put me down? What were your credentials? I will give Clay his due, 4 titles is great, a very elite club to join.I'm proud of what I've accomplished, I don't care what others think. I came from very very limited experience to where I'm at now. I wish you and your son the best at State.

Alex

Alex-

If you really don't care about what others think then say that and quit posting on this topic. You've made it clear where you stand on this subject and by constantly responding to every criticism you're not only fueling more responses, but contradicting the statement that you don't care.

In short, say you're piece and then be done. People will always have their opinions, but they'll stop posting them as soon as you do.

I would like to give a Huge Good Luck message to my son Jake Akin, a freshman w/ a losing record in 5A.

He is so excited, and going to State was something he did not expect, his dad and I are very proud of him, and wish him and his team the best.

This experience will only help him get better and make his goals higher.

Go Blazers !

This topic has gotten pretty silly to me. first of all i have known Alex Ryan for about 6 years now and as much as i really do hate the word the guy is onrey(god i hate that word, sounds so 1950's) and since ive known him he has been a protaganist. The other thing he has been is always very nice and funny, always has a positive word about everyone but doesnt mind getting his jab's in on the side either. I really dont think he was trying to put anyone down with this just trying to start a conversation and get a little jab in on the side, is it necessary, probally not, did it hurt anything, not in any way, shape or form. Is it like a kid with a loosing record who qualified for state is going to get on here and be like "oh god i suck, maybe i shouldnt wrestle this weekend". I would highly doubt it, and if some kid did then he probally doesn't have the right kind of attitude for this sport anyways. Something that always bothers me about this forum is how offended everyone gets, if the forum is not attended to talk about who is good, and who is the best, and who is better than who than we better take out about 90% of the of the post because that is what mostly what goes on in this forum. A third thing to remember is that when people type it is very hard to read their tone of voice, for instance i am an extremly sarcastic person, and every time i make a sarcastic remark on here i forget that people dont know that about me and i sound like a jerk or offend someone. It happens but i get over it because when you break it down we are the talking heads of Kansas wrestling which puts us right ahead of the talking heads of Ohio Lacrosse, what we say on here doesnt make that much of a difference in the long run but we get on here cause we like to share information, argue over something that we know cant be proven, or puff out our chest over or favorite team or wrestler. I guess what this whole rant is trying to get at is that while we are on here for our own reasons we should not take to personally what other people say, or get to personal with what we say to other,(something i know i am guilty of to at times), and back to my begining point, this topic has gotten pretty silly to me. Alex, your my boy blue.

steph,

I love your post, this is what wrestling is all about. Best of luck to you and your son this weekend

Jason Malay - what you said is exactly right. This is a discussion forum. When did it become okay to question one person's wrestling ability just because you didn't agree with them?

Heck, I have never wrestled before in my life. Does that mean I should not comment on anything on this forum? Is someone going to attack me personally just because they disagree with something I posted on a DISCUSSION board. Oh wait, it already happened.

Here is my take on the thing. There are some wrestlers in every classification and weight group who had luck on their side. It may be that they were in a really weak regional, it may be that the top-ranked wrestler was sick, or it may be that there were not as many people to compete against than in other tournaments. That is a part of life. It will always be there in EVERY sport.

I agree. Congratulations to the Akins on their son qualifying. Good luck and enjoy it.

I would have rather wrestled and lost than have played basketball.

Finally, can we all agree on something here? Regardless of record everyone who goes to state deserves to be there. There are many factors that go into an individual's record and to compare one to the other is quite unfair. This is why our sport needs dual state. Often times there are many role players on a team that might never make it to state on their own but show up everyday for practice and help make those around them betterand their team better.

What I should do is find the top six guys in my room and cut everyone else. But most coaches don't do that. They choose to build teams around kids that want to be there and want to be part of something. Sometimes these kids get to go to state. Sometimes they go 1-2 and get to go to state. So. Does that lessen their contribution to their team.

Yes it seems the path in 3A and 4A is more difficult. We had two seniors finish 3-2 at regionals and not go to state. But both of them were at practice on Monday helping their teammates get ready for this weekend. Would they have qualified in 5A or 6A? Who knows? Who cares? I'm sure that this won't be the worst thing that ever happens to them in their life.

Good Luck 1A, 2A, 3A, 4A, 5A & 6A KANSAS state wrestlers.

P.S. leave Alex alone or I will start messing with your accounts

Well put coach DeWitt.

His motive should have been to bring the KSHSAA to their senses! It is ridiculous that more than 50% of the varsity participants from 5A and 6A schools qualify for state. (I say more than 50% because some teams are unable to fill an entire roster.) These two classes should be combined. KSHSAA crowns four state champs in each weight and there are only 2.7M people in KS. Wisconsin crowns three and there are 5.7M residents. NY crowns one with over 19.2M inhabitants. It is no wonder that you have to win at Fargo if you are from Kansas if you want a D1 school to notice you.

... and I tend to agree with Will on this!

When was the last time we had a finalist at the National HS Tourney? It seems like we send 3-timers and even 4-time Kansas champs to this event and they come home 1-2, 2-2. Tristen Deshazer, a Kansas 4-timer, finished an outstanding 4th last year!

When we compare our best to the rest of Nation I think we come up a bit short!

I think we live in a small-shallow pond. Clearly our National status would improve if we combined 4 little ponds and made a bigger one!

once again Randy, you've nailed it

many folks on themat can't believe that Kansas has 4 classes in wrestling (and arizona has even more). We already combine classes to form 321a, so we should just as easily be able to combine other classes as well. this would give much more credibility to the term "state champ" in Kansas.

I don't know if he was the last one to do it, but Joe Johnston got second when he went. He was only a two timer, with a second place and sixth place before that.

But I agree with you guys. Consolidating the top two, or even top three, classes would be a great idea. Not only would it lend more credibility to a state title in Kansas, it would make simply placing at the state tournament quite an accomplishment as well.

I've always said that 5th and 6th don't count. Combine the classes and I would consider aknowledging them.

With 4 classes, Kansas is too watered down for the population of the state. Combine 5A and 6A and then you have an accomplishment. I'm don't want to take anything away from the kids that qualified to state. But with regional weight classes that are riddled with byes in 8 man brackets, its just a little to easy to qualify. Correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't there a few weight classes at some 6A regionals that had only 4 kids entered. Just weigh in, get beat twice and your going to state.
Something is wrong with that. Granted, Kansas is not the only state with 4 our more classifications(Missouri,Oklahoma,Arizona, etc.). 3 Classes would be good for the sunflower state. By having 3 classes, this would provide the opportunity to have state at one location. This is another glaring problem in KS, and another subject.

I don't think Kansas having four classes instead of three classes has that much to do with our wrestlers not getting noticed by Division I wrestling schools or obtaining scholarships. I think the bigger reason there is limited college wrestling opportunities for Kansas wrestlers has more to do with the fact that we do not have Division I wrestling at Wichita State, K-State and KU. More opportunity would open up for Kansas wrestlers if we had programs at universities outside of Kansas too like Texas, Colorado, Texas A&M, etc.. More college wrestling opportunities for Kansas wrestlers would open up if we had programs at Pitt State, Washburn and Emporia State. The number of Kansas wrestling scholarships in comparison to a sport like football has more to do with the limited amount of overall college wrestling scholarships available.

I really do not see it that the KSHSAA purpose should be to set up a state wrestling tournament series so more kids are noticed by Division I wrestling schools or to help us develop national finalists in the national high school tourney.

I am just not sure why Kansas high school wrestling should be that different than any other high school sport in their state tournament series. Don't the other sports in Kansas have at least four classes too? I have been around a lot of cross country state meets the last several years and they have a lot of runners who qualify with their teams to the state meet. Many of them are not as a good as the lead runners but the state experience seems to me to be a very good thing for them. I think they get a lot out of it.

I saw a lot of wrestlers this weekend who probably had under .500 records but I also think they got a lot out of the experience. A lot of them probably just started wrestling in high school. Do we really want to take this state experience away from them? Maybe we are lighting a fire in them for wrestling from this state experience that will last the rest of their life. Possibly they will get their kids involved later in life due to this experience. Maybe we are getting their parents and friends interested in wrestling for the first time. We need this sport to grow with the broad sporting public if we really want college wrestling opportunities to grow.

I think there are too many teams qualifying for state in football in Kansas as well. Vince, I am not sure what the KSHSAA is for but it does appear they are all about making things mediocre and all against doing things to become the best. When it comes to leveling the playing field they over do the job. At some point in time everyone learns that life isn't a level playing field. Maybe not making state would push some of these boys to greater heights either the next year or when they have kids later. The USA was built with a sound foundation of capitalism and the KSHSAA seems to have a fourndation and four walls firmly built with socialistic principles. I respect your opinion but I just don't think it is on target this time. The only way to improve is to raise the bar.

Records definitely are overrated. Strength of schedule is a huge variable if you are going compare kids.

In my opinion if 4A somehow only had 32 schools competing like 5A and 6A, you would see a similar amount of losing records.

My perception of the Kansas scene (and common in other states) is that rural communities generate a strong interest in wrestling in most cases. The small town newspapers and radio stations and other media give decent coverage of wrestling. Blue collar and farm kids really do well in this sport.


Conversely, I see in the bigger cities where you have the bigger schools, wrestling is not as popular and basketball gets a huge amount of the attention. Yes, you have a bigger pool to draw from but you probably see participation levels in wrestling similar to the smaller schools. And to be honest, sometimes you see less participation. The bigger schools do put out that blue chip college recruite type wrestler more often which is a function of the bigger numbers. But the overall depth in the big schools is really not there. Large Media coverage of wrestling in Kansas takes a huge backseat to basketball. I'll say it, the KC Star is horrible on wrestling coverage.


Note it's good thing and a great learning experience for the kids that get to state. But if almost everybody get's there, than it just becomes another tournament and loses some of its luster. I'm going to use as an example states like IL, IN, OH, NY and PA. Qualifying for state in these states is more difficult than placing in KS. I base this judgement partly on the number of matches kids have to win to get to state. You have to win 6 sometimes 7 matches. If you're a state qualifier, you know you did something.

Will,

Make Kansas one high school class and you still don't have any more college opportunities available to Kansas kids. You still have the same limited number of colleges offering D-I programs out there. You still have the limited amount of scholarships that each school can give out. I believe it is somewhere around 9 or 10 scholarships. There is very limited money and opportunity in college wrestling right now. That is evidently a reflection of the interest in wrestling. You are not addressing that aspect of what I posted. We are not going to grow college wrestling opportunities until we develop more general interest with the sporting public. If anything by limiting the amount of wrestlers participating in state wrestling tournaments you are going to do nothing but impede not grow general wrestling interest. We need people and new people in the seats in big numbers. We should not be doing things to lower the numbers at high school state tournaments. I would say a pretty high percentage of the spectators at these state tournaments this weekend were family and friends. If their kids are not there wrestling, they are not coming to the state tournaments. Do you really want wrestling to be a sport for just the elite wrestlers and their families?

This is public school education mainly that the KSHSAA is governing. They are serving the public not a profit goal. The public school system is supported by the tax dollars of all the citizens not just families of elite wrestlers.

I think if someone wants their child to pursue an elite wrestling career that there are plenty of opportunities outside our regular high school season like our freestyle and greco programs. Now there are also more national post high school season folkstyle tournaments than there have been in the past. Actually I think due to the lack of budgets for most college wrestling programs that they are more likely to scout potential college wrestlers at these post high school season national folkstyle and freestyle tournaments. I would see someone approaching wrestling excellence this way as more following the traditional capitalistic approach that you talked about. This is the way that I believe that excellence in about every sport in America is being pursued today. It is not thru the regular season high school competition but from year around premier competition. American youth and their families are investing in their athletic development in these premier teams and in expensive year around training programs. Isn't personal investments such as this the capitalistic way?

I disagree with you too that not making state is going to make a wrestler work harder. It might but I also think that being at State also gives a wrestler extra incentive to want to improve to be better. I know my own son saw some wrestlers there that inspired him and he is pumped up to work harder now to improve how he does next year. He saw those state champions in action and he wants to work hard now to become one someday. He would not have felt that way if he was not there. I know that because he was not at State as a freshman and he was not as enthused last year as he is today after being at State last weekend. Another value I see to it from improving a wrestler is that I think there is some value to experience it and learn what it is about by getting on the mat in a state competition. I think that can benefit you in your next state competition.

Will, for the record here is the Kansas State High School Activities Association Mission Statement:

Goals that Influence Student Learning Outcomes

The Kansas State High School Activities Asssociation advocates principles and sponsors services which assure that the state's middle level and high school students gain a balanced preparation for life, work, and post-secondary education.

Principles on Which Intend Outcomes are Based

Principles advocated by the association are promotion of scholastic achievement as a fundamental basis for a well-balanced activity program and development of effective citizenship through the practice of good sportmanship.

Vince,

I never said it would create more college opportunities. Nothing is going to do that until Title IX is addressed. My point was that Division 1 coaches do not view Kansas High School State Champions in the same light as Iowa state champions or Wisconsin State Champions. If you want to be a Division 1 wrestler and you wrestle in a Kansas High School you better do well at Fargo or walk on.

Having kids with losing records, to the degree that 5a and 6a do, diminishes the quality of wrestling. I know of one wrestler who posted wins on his record but actually didn't win a wrestling match and made it to state this year. To me, that is a joke. I totally agree with everything posted by "fan of the sport" as the participation level at 5A and 6A probably isn't greater and may be less than that of 4A and 321A. There are far more extracurricular options for kids in the larger schools. Larger schools are in larger cities which offer far more job opportunities and other non-school activities.

The restrictions against extra practicing, coaches not being able to work with kids outside of the season, the limited travel and matches, all of these KSHSAA mandates weaken wrestling. These rules protect the kids who don't want to put in the extra time and protect the coaches who don't want to put in the extra time. These are the socialistic rules that I am speaking of. The top programs in the country wrestle the top programs in the country. Has a team from Kansas ever gone to one of these elite team events? I don't think so because they are beyond the limits mandated by the KSHSAA. I never said that wrestling should just be for the elite but I disagree STRONGLY with rewarding the mediocre or less than average. What are you teaching your kids then? You don't have to work as hard as the guys at the top but you will still get the same rewards?

You can agree or disagree with me about whether a wrestler is incented to work harder if they don't make it to state but you have to agree that losing records to the degree we have them makes our state tournament look weak.

If you want people in the seats and big numbers then we need the event to be in one location so the fans can see all of the wrestlers in state. The fans want to see the best wrestle the best. More often than not this never happens because we have too many classifications. If we are inviting as many kids to state as possible to fill the seats with parents and relatives that is a pretty sad state of affairs.

If we are talking combining classes simply based on strength. Then 6a should be combined with 3a-1a not 5a. 5a Was already the toughest class to win a state championship in. Look at the thread for All-Kansas team, 5A already has something like 6 kids listed as favories, One weight a toss up, 130, and 2 for 3a-1a, 3 for 4a, and 2 for 6a.

If will change from year to year, but 5a was the toughest class to win a state championship in this year. Maybe not place but win. Next year it could be 4a, it's usually one of those two classes.

Combining 5a-6a would make the others a cake walk in comparison. IMO you either need to go to 1 class or possibly 2 if you are going to combine.

24/7

How many kids have really been affected scholarship wise by having more than one state. If the kid is that good when he goes to nationals, freestyle or greco he will prove himself there

Plus, no more money than a D1 schollie amounts to, I don't think I would make that my first concern.

Novice State

I think that Cokeley in on point on this topic. What I am getting from Will, correct me if I am wrong Will, is that you only get better if you are wrestling the best. It doesn't matter win or loose, just wrestling the best gets you notoriety on the D1 level. Here is a moto "to be the best you have to wrestle the best". Hum, wonder where that comes from?

It is sad that for our kids state it is a grand state. They don't separate the little kids by classes, yes there are more weight classes, but i doesn't matter if you come from a town of 200 population or from a town 10X that size.

My son realized this this past weekend at the 4A state championships. he said "Dad, all the kids that i wrestle now won't be in my bracket in high school?" I replied "Yes". He then commented, "High school will be easier than kids". I told him "Not always". If a 9 year old can see it why can't everyone else?

Have you ever wondered why HS state champs don't go to kids state after they have won a HS title, if their age allows,? Is it because they are a little afraid of having the "State Champ" tarnished do to a loss at kids state? You can't say, well why would they?

They won HS state they don't need to go. If they wanted the D1 schools looking at them they would continue on. I am very close to some of the current and past coaches at OSU, P. Smith, Mark Branch, Shane Roller and others. All 3 of these guys stated "to get noticed by D1 schools you almost have to place at Fargo".

Shane Roller stated that his kids titles and Tulsa Nationals titles helped his credentials probably more so than his 4 HS titles. One word backs up what Will is saying about Fargo being the main tournament for kids from Kansas. "Erisman"!!!! Yes, he placed at Fargo.

Bring back grand state or combine them all. All kids need to know that when in the real world there are no classifications pertaining to where you are from if you are applying for a job.

Are we setting up our kids for disappointments and failures by giving them the false sense of what the real world is about?

Not bashing or wanting to upset people just sate my opinion and raising some points to ponder.

Jason Wood

If you are going to be spanked, would you rather it be done in relative privacy or at the State Tournament?

Randy you can spank me any where!

The bottom line is if you want to wrestle you'll find a way D1, D2,D3 NAIA or JUCO. I could have taken all the money that I spent over the years on wrestling and sent all three of my kids to 5 star colleges!

JUCO isn't such a bad route, it's cheaper than starting at Division I and you can start right away in the lineup then get all divisions to look at you. Then the door is wide open. Ask Eric Luedke....

I was looking at this some and thinking of my son's Aquinas team. In looking at the median breakdown by class I saw that in 6A it was about 1270 pupils per school, 5A it was about 777, 4A about 365, 3-2-1A about 153. My proposal to approach this problem of sub .500 records qualifying for state (if that is indeed determined a problem needing to be fixed) would be to allow all the 5A and 6A teams to bring two wrestlers per weight to regionals. That would make for the possibility of 16 person brackets instead of 8 at Regionals in 5A and 6A. It would be fair to allow schools with 2 or more times the pupils than schools in 4A or 3-2-1A to send twice as many wrestlers per weight to regionals.

I started thinking of this because I believe that the Aquinas team this year which qualified in all 14 classes could have probably qualified at least 20 wrestlers at regionals in this scenario. Thirteen of the 14 that Aquinas did qualify had over .500 records. I believe at least 5 more of the additional 6 that I think Aquinas could have qualified would have had over .500 records if they were given enough varsity opportunities to wrestle. Three of these six additional projected qualifiers from this Aquinas squad have in fact qualified in previous years and I believe all three of them had over .500 records in past years and no doubt would have been over .500 this year as varsity wrestlers. I believe some of these additional wrestlers could have possibly placed at State this year.

I decided to look into the top 10 finishing teams in 5A (Aquinas, Carroll, Hutchinson, Ark City, Emporia, Gardner Edgerton, Valley Center, Lansing, Shawnee Heights, and Liberal). Including Aquinas which had 13 of its 14 with over .500 records, the top ten teams had 90 wrestlers with over .500 records. I believe that at these quality wrestling schools you could get at least a third or 30 more wrestlers to have qualified with winning records under the scenario that each school in 5A and 6A could bring two per weight to Regionals to bring the brackets at regionals to 16 like 4A and 3-2-1A. That is not even taking into consideration the additional over .500 qualifiers that the next ten teams: Great Bend, Salina South, Kapaun, Mill Valley, Topeka-Seaman, Hays, Winfield, Turner, McPherson and Schlagle might potentially add to the mix with over .500 record wrestlers if they were allowed to bring an extra wrestler per weight to Regionals. These additional wrestlers from these schools would probably replace a lot of the qualifiers with under .500 records.

I believe this scenario where you let all the 5A and 6A schools take two per weight group instead of one would mean that you would have 5A and 6A look a lot more like 4A and 3-2-1A in terms of qualifiers with over .500 records. Of course other tournaments during the season would have to either allow these schools to bring more than one wrestler per weight to their tournaments or more tournaments would have to allow these schools to bring their varsity B teams to their tournaments to let these wrestlers develop their varsity experience and records.

I think there are quite of few quality wrestlers at these top 5A and 6A bigger schools who are not even getting an opportunity to wrestle at Regionals.

We could have one state tournament. California does it and they have over 800 wrestling programs. Just a few years ago they crowned their first 4x State Champion, Darrell Vasquez. Now that is prestigious! How many 4 timers does Kansas have now. When you go to High School Nationals and you step on the mat with someone from California you better be ready to get after it.

I totally agree with the idea of a single state tournament. I don’t like having four individual state champions for a weight class. The state tournament should determine THE STATE CHAMPION. Maybe then more people would put more stock in the 5th and 6th place finishers also. Now, will we ever have one state tournament? Probably not. As long as KHSHAA is calling the shots we can probably forget this pipe dream. I’m not sure how much KHSHAA profits off the state tournament series, but I’m sure there is some profit. More state tournaments means more competitors, and more competitors means more parents, siblings, grandparents, etc. Add it all up and it results in more money for KHSHAA. Don’t get me wrong here I’m not KHSHAA bashing. They have to make money and they do a lot of good things with that money. KHSHAA’s first concern is the student and then the athlete, as well it should be.

I also think too much is being made about wrestling D1. First off the opportunities are limited at this level and wrestling D1 isn’t the end of all ends. Why do so many people glamorize wrestling at this level? Lets face it it’s a job that most kids are not up to in the first place. All I see on this forum is D1, D1, D1. We are so hung up on D1 that we forget what kids are really going to college for, and that is an education that will provide for them through the rest of their lives. Take a look at the average D1 wrestler after they finish college and I bet you’ll find that many are not even involved in wrestling any longer. Why is wrestling D1 so important? Why, well probably for parents who tend to live vicariously through their kids. Frankly, there are parents out there that believe that if their kid wrestles D1 it will improve their own status quo. I don’t think most kids really aspire to wrestle at the D1 level, however, I do believe that these ideas are being drilled into their heads. This trend of D1 grandeur has lead to a false feeling of entitlement by athletes and college coaches are a little fed up with it.

I don’t get caught up in the statistics of how many Kansas wrestlers are wrestling at the D1 level. To me this isn’t a fair measuring stick. Instead I think we need to look at how many kids have gone on to wrestle at college because of their love for the sport. If they get a scholarship at any level, GREAT. Be happy for what they received and not bitter about what they didn’t receive. We need to look at wrestling realistically as a way to subsidize our kids higher education. I say subsidize because most full-ride scholarships don’t entirely pay for an education. And, depending on what degree you are seeking in college a D1 school doesn’t necessarily provide the best education for the field of study that one is interested in. Some of the best learning institutions in the nation are the smaller ones. They can provide a smaller instructor/student ratio, which means students can get more one-on-one assistance from the instructor. Too often students become just numbers at the larger universities and their educational experience suffers because of it.

Sorry to be such a windbag.

Also Will and Randy, I think what you might ultimately be looking for is a grand state scenario. I would like to see a grand state tournament. I think it would be an exciting and interesting to take the top four from 6A, 5A, 4A and 3-2-1A and see who would be the all class winners and placers. I think they used to do it that way many years ago but they still had the individual class state tournaments too. I would not mind seeing that return. I think a Dual State Tournament would be interesting too. I doubt any of it will happen anytime soon though.

Vince,
That is so crazy I give up 5a & 6a used to only have 8 man brackets at state. This would eliminate nearly ALL of the under .500 records. The problem with your suggestion is that many teams CANNOT even fill an entire 14 weight class roster. JV wrestling is the equivalent of Kids novice or Kansas Middle School wrestling so I don't think your solution will raise the standard of quality wrestling at the state tournament. I am sticking with my suggestion to combine 5A and 6A and call it good. There are 154 schools in 3A (the largest class) in Wisconsin and only 32 kids qualify for state. Seven of the 20 wrestlers who wrestled in the last Olympics were from Wisconsin High Schools.

Coach Neil, I agree with your points on D1 wrestling. I merely used it as a barometer for the lack of exposure because winning 4x's in Kansas doesn't mean as much as winning 4x in most other states. Therefore all levels of college coaches are not interested in seriously looking at Kansas wrestlers unless they perform well in the summer. I guarantee you that ALL D1 programs were interested in Vasquez just as they were in Jesse Jantzen a few years back.

Will,

I am enjoying this conversation with you. It is just a big difference in opinion that I am okay with. I know you just want to see the quality of wrestling improve in Kansas and the only point you have made so far that I believe could justify your position of joining 5A and 6A is that Wisconsin had 7 of the last 20 in the Olympics. I don't know if having fewer state championships per pupil necessarily caused that to happen but who knows. I look at it though from the perspectitive that we need to make wrestling and wrestling general interest grow and that it is important especially in these high school years to be growing a fan base in the wrestlers themselves, their families and friends. Growth in interest in the long run is the only way that college wrestling programs are going to grow. You mentioned Title IX in a previous post but I think many AD's actually secretly like Title IX because they can use it as an excuse to limit men's non-revenue sports. I don't think you would see a sudden flood of new wrestling programs and scholarships if Title IX were suddenly repealed. The AD's want to focus on their bread and butter sports today.

I know that most teams could not field two full teams with 14 wrestlers. I don't think that Aquinas even could due to the lower weights especially 103 and 112. But take those two weights out of it and I believe Aquinas could put a very credible wrestler in very other weight. I bet most of the top teams in 5A and 6A could do the same. It was very disappointing to see the lack of opportunity in high school wrestling this year for so many quality wrestlers on the Aquinas team. It was very frustrating to see the disappointment and frustration that so many of the senior wrestlers and their parents had this year because they had to wrestle JV when they knew that they could have been wrestling varsity at probably 90% of the schools in Johnson County.

I know Aquinas is probably an extreme example of this but I bet there are several other teams in 5A and 6A that have some very good wrestlers on their JVs or worse yet just did not bother to come out for the team this year. There have to be wrestlers like that at other schools to like Carroll, Hutchinson, Goddard, Manhattan, etc. I see the problem more that there are also quality athletes at these bigger schools that are not coming out for wrestling. I know we have some great athletes at Aquinas who would no doubt be incredible wrestlers if we did a better job of getting them to give wrestling a try. I see that more of a problem at these bigger schools that I know have the athletes. Why are we not getting them out? Sure it is a tough sport but it is also the greatest sport in the world. We need to sell this sport better to them and offer them more opportunities not less.

I am definitely not in favor of even further limiting the wrestling opportunities for high school kids at larger schools to qualify for state by joining the two larger classes. They already have an unfair limitation at most weights to smaller schools by only allowing them one per school per weight. Per pupil that is a limitation for the larger school wrestler. Create more opportunities for quality high school athletes to wrestle. Do not further limit them.

We can do this and still achieve what you really want too. All you have to do is have this Grand State at the end of the year. You could also further add to the fun and school spirit by having a Dual State sometime during the year. Imagine the excitement if Aquinas, Goddard, Carroll, Manhattan, Hutchinson, and other schools were battling it out in a Dual State tournament. I tell you what I bet you would put more of the student body in the seats for that kind of a tournament too!

I think the thing that would help at 5 or 6a regionals is to wrestle the 5th/6th place match (if you have enough) and then the winner of that has an opportunity to challege for True 4th as long as the guy that took 4th didn't defeat him in the tournament at any point heads up.

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