Are there enough heavyweight classes?

I say there are not enough heavyweight classes. I think that that young high school athletes are bigger today and we need to adjust our weight classes to attract more of these heavier football athletes into wrestling. This is what I proposed in another topic about the Best Kansas Heavyweight Ever.



I believe that the current spread of weight classes is unfair to the heavier wrestlers and does not offer them enough opportunity. I really do think that this discourages heavier football athletes from participating in wrestling.

These are our current weight classes, the pound difference from the next lower class and the pct jump to the limit of the next class. As you can see the jump in pound difference and pct difference increase dramatically once you go past 171.

103
112- 9 lbs - 8.74%
119- 7 lbs - 6.25%
125- 6 lbs - 5.04%
130- 5 lbs - 4.00%
135- 5 lbs - 3.85%
140- 5 lbs - 3.70%
145- 5 lbs - 3.57%
152- 7 lbs - 4.83%
160- 8 lbs - 5.26%
171- 11 lbs- 6.88%
189- 18 lbs-10.53%
215- 26 lbs-13.76%
285- 70 lbs-32.56%

Vince-

on some level you have a point. however, I'm afraid I have to disagree with you on this being best for the sport. heres why...
most coaches have a hard time filling their line up cards anyway, and a lot of time the heavier weights are part of the problem. I do not think having more then 14 weight classes is a good idea. are you proposing those weight classes in addition to the ones already used from 171 down or are you proposing we restructure those so we still are left with 14? i think taking away weight classes down their is a bad idea because we already have a lot more good wrestlers there then at the bigger weights. most teams are deeper in the 130-145 range then they are in the 189-285 range. finally, heavyweight was weak this year altogether i felt. if you take some heavyweights out of the bracket it dillutes the competition even more. i'm sure your son would have wrestled 245 this year with the weight classes like that. That takes a state placer out of an already not very tough bracket. Their are also more kids that were quality heavyweights this year that would have dropped down. this could leave us in regionals with 4 or 5 kids in a bracket. i do not want to see kids go 0-2 at regionals and then wrestle at state. i understand your goal in wanting something like this but i think in the end it would hurt the quality of the product on the mat.

I disagree.

First - since you are not proposing raising the weight above 285 I don't see how a change would "attract heavier football athletes into wrestling". There already is a weight class for them - 215 or 285.

Second - your proposal would dilute the impact of wrestling in 189, 215 and 285 weight class in Kansas. How can a college coach compare a record of a kid who wrestled at 220 in Kansas with one that wrestled at 285 in another state? Let alone the problems you face when you wrestle outside the state. Of course, if your proposal is for these weight classes to apply on a National basis then you should stop right here b/c it isn't going to occur. We will be doing good to keep the weight classes we have (103 is in danger of being dropped)

Third - If you go back and look at your state champions in the HVY weight division from years past I would venture to beat that the majority are on the lighter of 285. Quite frankly, it is the rare high school kid who can weigh 285 and not have a lot of fat on him (not that it doesn't occur: Dwyane Zlatnik is an example). Look at the weights at some of the heavyweights in college - the OSU heavyweight is about 230. The Iowa State heavyweight is about 225.

Fourth - I disagree that the weight spread is unfair. Give me a in shape 230lb kid and I will take him against most 285lbrs any day.

coach neil posted the above in the other topic as to why my proposal for adding weight classes would be unrealistic. It was a good reply and I want to respond to several points he made.

First on coach neil's comment that coaches don't have enough time for 16 weight classes (he suggests actually reducing the classes to 12) and that the coaches need a little break on weekends for time with their families. I don't disagree with this but there would probably just need to be some adjustments. My son's team has been in several tournaments this year with 20 to 30 teams. If this is a problem perhaps teams should limit themselves to more manageable tournaments with half the teams or in more dual type tournaments like quad team dual formats.

A second point coach neil makes is that it would add problems for already strained budgets. Honestly I do not know how to answer that since I am not familiar with the team's budget structure. I have no idea of knowing how much adding two more weight classes would add to the budget. I work with my own company's budget and often have to make adjustments when problems arise. But again I am unaware of the exact problem for the high school teams and this is probably a good argument on not adding classes. But even if you are forced to be at the same amount of weight classes due to the budget, I think they should be adjusted to lower the weight differential and percentage differences for the heavier wrestlers.

coach neil states that a smaller wrestler can have success against a bigger wrestler. Yes that is true but if they are relatively equal athletically and in wrestling skills there is just very little chance a 220 wrestler is going to have a great deal of success against an athletic and skilled 260 to 285 pound wrestler.

It is also about competitive opportunity, yes they can compete for that one spot or lose 15 to 25 pounds to try to get down to 215 but that is very little opportunity for several interested heavier wrestlers on the same team in comparison to all the classes between 119 and 152 where you have all these small weight and percentage differences between classes.

coach neil's commented that coaches will tell you it is not the lack of weight classes that is keeping the big boys from coming out for wrestling but has more to do with how difficult a sport it is and how much dedication it takes. I have to ask you coach why is that factor any different for the bigger boys? I am not saying that you are incorrect about wrestling being a difficult sport but I don't think this factor would discourage heavier wrestlers any more than lighter wrestlers.

I agree with coach neil that there are plenty of opportunities for kids to wrestle but there are a lot more opportunities for the lighter and middle weight wrestlers. In my opinion there is not enough opportunities for the heavier wrestlers.

wrestle007,

I am really not proposing dropping weight classes unless that would be the only way to improve the opportunity for heavier athletes. Look at the percentage differences in by topic introduction, they are just too great once you start going past 171.

As far as your comment about the heavyweight class being weak this year. That is how this discussion came up in the other topic on the best heavyweight ever. Some were saying it was not a lack of quality for a few of the top heavyweights like Zlatnick, Disney, Andrus, Holly, Hybsha, and a few others but more in the overall depth of the class. Klint Deere said he did not know why the overall quality in heavyweight was down this year. This whole discussion stems from that.

I am suggesting there are plenty of high quality heavier athletes who would be very good wrestlers. I know we have them at my son's school Aquinas. I saw a couple of them in attendance at his Regional meet. These two signed to play D-1 football. They are excellent athletes and would have been great wrestlers. I know we have probably at least ten or more other 230 and over football athletes who could also be good wrestlers. I think if there was more opportunity for them with weight classes you would see more of them come out for wrestling.

One of the goals of this is to improve the quality of wrestling in the heavier weight classes by getting more of these football players out for wrestling. It would not happen overnight but it would in time.

Vince:

You bring up some very good points, but I have to agree with the rest of respondents that there has to be some level of moderation here.

Yes, it would be great to offer more opportunity for bigger guys, but one of the beauties of wrestling has always been the that it never discriminates against size. Everyone from the smallest to biggest kid in school can be a star. But just like football and baseball and volleyball, there can only be so many starting positions. Up until the addition of 215, the difference went from 189 to 275.

Ironically, back in the 1980's Iowa briefly experimented with having what amounted to "heavyweight" (everyone 185 to 230) and super-heavyweight (230 and up). You saw a lot of schools at all levels having trouble filling that "super" spot and after a few years it died off.

I was an 190-pound heavyweight my senior year in high school (at the request of my coach) back in the days when it was unlimited on weight. I actually enjoyed my best season wrestling against more than a few 300-pounders (back in the days before limits).

I agree that there should always be as many opportunities for kids to wrestle as possible, but there has to be a limit, and the weights we now have seem to be working well.

Good discussion Vince!

Fighting Obesity in the Public Schools!

Childhood Overweight!

The State View of the School Obesity Epidemic!

Mr. Disney;

On your first point, yes there is a class for them 215 and 285. That is not much for 70 pounds and a 32.56% jump though, is it? Compare that to the number of classes available to the 119 to 152 athlete where you have 7 classes available instead of two and the weight differential is only 33 pounds and the percentage jump from 119 to 152 is less at 27.73%.

How many football players are there on a typical high school team between 215 and 285? I know there a lot on my son's school team and on most of the schools that I saw them play. Is it really fair that they should only be competing for one or two spots that have a 70 lbs. differential between them?

On your second point yes I would be proposing for it nationally. Why could it not be done? They have adjusted the weights before and have added brackets. We did not always have a 215. Texas has a 180 so you could even just do it in Kansas but I would prefer to see it nationally. One of my goals with this proposal is to see more kids come out for wrestling and grow wrestling in general popularity. If we could do that we might actually start to see some growth in college programs and opportunities for scholarships. As far as comparing if Kansas had to be different without a national change, from my understanding you pretty much need to wrestle freestyle/greco and go to Fargo to be really noticed anyway so the 220 lbs kid would either go down to 215 or up to 285 for Fargo summer wrestling. When you are talking this level though you are in the elite level and I think they will be noticed even if the state weight class is different from the national one. Do you think that say if Romero Cotton was a 180 wrestler in Texas that he would drop off the radar screen for college coaches?

As far as your comments about how a light heavyweight can be competitive with a 285 1bs wrestler. I am willing to concede that to a point, but you do have guys though like Zlatnick out there and a 220 pounder who is of comparable ability is just going to be outmatched in that contest. Who do you like in a match up between a quality 125 wrestler and a quality 152 pound wrestler that would be a comparable difference? I would also probably take an in shape 125 lbs wrestler over an out of shape 152 lbs wrestler but let's not compare an out of shape kid to an in shape kid. Instead let's compare in shape equaling skilled kids against each other but one kid weighs 40 pounds more than the other. Give me a kid of equal abilities and 40 pounds lighter than Zlatnick and I will put my money on Zlatnick all the time.

I understand that we probably do not have enough over 215 quality in shape athletes in wrestling right now. But I also know from watching football teams that they are out there. I want to see us get more of them going from the football field to the wrestling mat at the end of their season.

Thank you for the compliment on the discussion. I think though that wrestling is today discriminating against size. Look at the percentage differential in classes for the weights over 171.

As far as what the weights used to be, I believe that kids are getting bigger and more athletic at these bigger sizes. In 1969 when I was a senior in high school we had about 4 lineman who weighed between 200 and 210. We were considered to be a big team then. You saw very few kids at 240 then. Now you see running backs that big. Unfortunately I do not think we are attracting enough of these bigger kids into wrestling.

Richard;

I will read your articles. I can only guess at this point that they have something to do with how out of shape and overweight kids are today.

I think part of the solution to that would be to get more of these heavier out of shape kids into wrestling programs. So I think your articles would have to be support for my goal of attracting more of the heavier kids into wrestling by adding weight classes.

Richard:

Thank you for including the articles. I just read one of them and I can see it does support my idea to add more weight classes for the heavier wrestlers to attract more of the heavier kids into wrestling. One of your articles suggests that a solution to the problem of obseity is to increase the opportunites for physical activity for them. That is exactly one of my goals by adding extra weight classes for the heavier kids, so I appreciate you adding these articles because I really think they give support to my idea.

Oh by the way, I don't consider my son at 220 to be obese today. I could also name some other kids who wrestle today that are even heavier at 240 to 260 pounds but I think most people know who they are. I doubt their dads or mothers consider them obese either. At one time before my senior year in college, I weighed just under 240 as I was doing some heavy weightlifting considering a comeback in football. I was in very good shape at that time. I was in a lot better shape than I am today around 225.

A big problem with wrestling is the idea many people have that you have to lose weight to wrestle. If you add more weights heaviers guys will not think they have to drop weight to wrestle. What will one more kid add to the cost of wrestling if they add a 240 lb class. Lets see you are already traveling there on a bus. That does not add anymore to the cost of travel. You will have to pay 10 a week to feed him that is only what 180 bucks per school. That is not that great of an increase. When schools blow $10,000 on a jungle gym for grade school kids, or $30,000 for fertilizers for their fields, I just dont see how spending $180 extra is going to break a school.

What I see is a lot of schools , not in 6A, have trouble filling weight classes now, to add one more is not a good idea.Small private schools already are strained on budgets as well. I would be in favor of going back to 12 weight classes, but its not going to happen. I would like to see..100, 110, 120,..130, 140, 150, 160, 170, 180, 200, 225, 290...

I'm going to make a statement that will probably upset a few on this matter, but from a spectator standpoint I would like to see at least 2 more weight classes in the upper weights. In my opinion there is more excitment to see in say from 160#-285# weight classes, not taking nothing away from the lower weights but the heavier weight classes Some say that it will be hard to fill a roster, but I have seen just as many opens in the lower weights. I agree with Disney, I believe most the State Champions at 285 were not the heaviest but the trimmest, and in best condition of the heavy weights.

Wrestling is the a great sport for it makes room for everyone to participate. What I mean by this is most the lower weights wrestling is a good sport, that they can excel in. Football, and basketball players are getting allot bigger than in years past, and I know a few wrestling programs that where 3 to 4 deep at from 189-285, and allot of kids drop out at this weight who are quality wrestlers because they a wrestling behind a Cotton, Disney, to mention a few type wrestlers. And with a few added weights in the upper classes there would be room for them. How many lower weights would be in the same boat if we had 30# jumps in weight classes, I believe more than a few.

The real thing to keep in mind is changing of times, like I said earlier kids are bigger now days than years ago, you have high schools with #285+ linemen, #200+ running backs, and so on and all 6'or taller. The smallest man on the team is the #160 water boy. Some may say that this is unhealthy, but some will also say that a 103# high school student is also I believe that was one reason for dropping the #98 slot years ago. There are way more kids cutting weight at the lower weights to a unhealthy level than at the upper weights.

So I suppose that this is another topic with arguments from every angle of the spectrum.

The heavier weights in college are filled with the trimmer guys. Especially the 197 guys. The Big 12 HWT champ, Zabriskie and Conrad at Minnesota are ripped. I know that in 6A 215, many of the in-shape 189 pounders could have dominated that weight. Your comment about the 160-285 classes being more exciting is a minority opinion though. There is far less scoring and in most cases more stalling. In most years, the 130 and 135 brackets are the deepest and toughest.

why is there an even number of weight classes? just add a 180lb class like texas has, then you wouldnt have all these crazy tiebreaker criteria for duals.

*Deleted*

We can't even get some of the big schools to fill rosters, so adding would be a disaster in my opinion.

Couture vs. Sylvia 45lbs. and 13 yrs.difference. With more weight classes Sylvia could still be champ.Bottom line the more skilled and in shape heavy wins most days.

Ohhh. Good point about Couture and Sylvia. Back to the original post...I know that it has been many years back, probably about 10, when the National Federation did some research to come up with new weight classes. Do any of you remember "squeezing" 125, 130, 135, and 140 into 126, 134, and 142? That was an absolute disaster back in the 93 season, if I remember correctly. Research showed that MOST schools had the most wrestlers in the room in the 125-152 areas, if my memory is anything close to correct, and the weights were adjusted back to reflect that after only one year, I believe. I would like to bring up several points. First and foremost, if a big kid does not come up through the kids program, and decides to give wrestling a try once he gets to High School, chances are that he will never be technical enough to have a lot of success. A kid that has had success on the football field but is getting his butt handed to him on the mats will not last. He will quit. All coaches will try to recruit those kids, and all coaches will have them quit. It's a fact. It is a very rare kid that will endure the frustration of a lack of immediate success, because his ego will not be able to handle it. There are exceptions, I know. Michael Baker of Smoky Valley was a state runner up at 189 in 4A after only three years of wrestling. I can not see the National Federation making any major changes to weight classes in the near future. Texas added the 180 pound class to bring a few larger, athletic kids onto the mats. I know that there has been some consideration of bumping 215 up to 220, and that might work. The bottom line is that an athletic kid will have success even if he is under sized. Jon Cook of Hays broke certification at 171, jumped to 215 the day before regionals, and got in the state championship match.

I think your analysis would apply to a kid at any size who does not come up thru the kids program. I would say frustration from losing on a regular basis is probably the number one cause of a wrestler dropping out at any level. Yes they are behind when they first come out in high school but it is possible to still be successful. I believe it is possible for a good athlete to become a pretty decent wrestler even if they start in high school. I believe Matt Baker 189 SM East is another recent example of a high school football player athlete who started wrestling in high school and is now a state placer as a junior and a regional champion last year as a sophomore in his second year of wrestling. Actually I would think since so many have said that the heavyweight depth quality is down that this would actually make it easier for a good football athlete to break in and have some good success in comparison to the 125 to 152 range.

I like your idea about bumping up 215 to 220 but only if they added one heavier class. At this time if they were to add one heavier class, I would actually like to see 189 dropped to 185, add the class at 200 and then bump 215 to 225. So instead of our current four classes at 171, 189, 215 and 285, you would have instead 171, 185, 200, 225 and 285.

The 215 pounder from Hays natural weight is much closer to 215 than 171 or 189. He had to be hurting at 171. That kid was put together and so is the Liberal kid.

I would like to see the weights as Husker described.

This weekend EJ Walter of Aquinas took first at Kids State 16&U 215. EJ did not wrestle for Aquinas this year. I believe he had a football injury at the start of the year and probably made the decision not to go out later since previous year state placer Mike Hammer was already at 215. EJ had qualified for 5A State the previous year 2006 as a sophomore at 189. Alex Lopez an Aquinas senior who had also qualified at the previous year at 285 for 5A State at heavyweight wrestled the majority of the year at JV after he lost in his last two wrestling challenges to my son after winning the first challenge for the heavyweight spot. Basically between 189 and 280 (91 pounds) there were only two spots available for four probable State placers at Aquinas.

I consider only two classes over 91 pounds to be a real lack of opportunity for the heavier athletes. I know our Aquinas team is an extreme example this year but think of how many quality heavier athletes are on your football teams and not even giving wrestling a try. I really think if there were more varsity spots available and they did not have to drop so much weight to make a spot that we would get more of them out.

You are beating a dead horse. It isn't going to happen. EJ had the opportunity to wrestle. Apparently he decided not to try and challenge Hammer because "Hammer was already at 215".

I realy hope that 103 is not in jeopardy of being dropped! Sometimes it is the only time in a small kids life where he or she gets a even playing field.

Absolutely agree!

Vince If you think this only happens there look around. It occurs everywhere. I'd bet Norton has people on JV who could place at State but you don't see them complaining we need more weight classes because they have 10 kids 125-152 that could place. Point being we already have enough trouble filling all 14 weight classes now why add to it? There are way more "average" sized kids in the 130-160 range in High School than there are 200+. So the amount of weight classes needs to reflect that. Why add another weight class when it may only benefit 1/2 the teams out there? Maybe I'm off base here but these are my observations.

Vince,
I think if you really want to influence this, start at the national level. NCAA goes from 197 to 285. Last year, i sat at Fargo near several college coaches when some high quality 215 cadets and juniors wrestled. I picked their brain a bit, and they told me that they looked at the kids as either potential 197lbers or whether they would grow in to a legitimate heavyweight closer to the 285 mark.

I do think we lose big kids going out for wrestling, but i think it is more of sport specialization thing and lack of encouragement by some football coaches.

Hit the nail squarely on the head!

1) hammer wasnt THAT awesome, he got 5th, i'm EJ could have competed with him.
2) even if EJ couldnt make varsity another wrestler of his caliber in the room improves everyone around that weight.
3) STA is special, they have a program unlike many others. part of this is due to the type of school they are, most of this is due to hardwork in the kidsclub, hs wrestling room, and great coaching. point being, STA has more quality kids then most other schools, part of having a good program is having great kids who cant make varsity.
4) this would have to be done at a national level. we cant have weight classes completely different then the states around us, it would make going to other tournaments out of state/having them come here a nightmare.

I think seeing a kid on the podium this week with no other kids on the podium was enough for me to think that certain age and weight groups need consolodated or you need to move up for not being "fit" if you are "obese"

Mr. Disney,

Respectfully, I just don't understand why you think 2 weight classes after 189 is enough for the next 91 pounds of weight. That is a very limited opportunity for a lot of football type athletes. Many of these guys are very good athletes who could be good wrestlers. These four guys from Aquinas (Hammer, Lopez, Walter, and Nowak) do not even scratch the surface of all the athletes over 189 that walk the halls at Aquinas. I know that Blue Valley and the other Blue Valley schools along with the Sunflower League schools in Shawnee Mission and Olathe have a lot of these type of heavier football players too that do not come out for wrestling. I think we need to be doing things to get these guys out.

I know I will probably catch some business from this next statement but I don't blame EJ for not wanting to wrestle JV this year. My son spent his freshman year doing that and for state qualifier type wrestlers that is the equivalent of wrestling novice in Kids. I don't know for sure but I think EJ just figured after his football injury recovered that he could use his time better lifting weights and adding strength and weight for football rather than JV wrestling. I think this is the same reasoning football coaches do not encourage their players to wrestle because they want them to add weight and strength and not spend months dropping a bunch of weight to get down to 189 or 215.

I am sorry I do not think it is a dead horse. Wrestling once added 215. I think two weight classes over the 190 to 285 range is way too few. I believe it is possible to add at least one more. Others recognize the need Texas has 180, Kansas Kids 16&U has 235, in college club the NCWA has 235. I am not the only one that thinks this. It will change with time if we want wrestling to grow in popularity.

What I would like to see done on a national level if all we could add was one class is to change 189 to 185, add a 200-205 weight class and then change 215 to 225 or 230.

Dakota tribal wisdom says that when you discover you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount. However, in business we often try other strategies with dead horses, including the following:

1. Buying a stronger whip.
2. Changing riders.
3. Say things like, "This is the way we have always ridden this horse."
4. Appointing a committee to study the horse.
5. Arranging to visit other sites to see how they ride dead horses.
6. Increasing the standards to ride dead horses.
7. Appointing a tiger team to revive the dead horse.
8. Creating a training session to increase our riding ability.
9. Comparing the state of dead horses in todays environment.
10. Change the requirements declaring that "This horse is not dead."
11. Hire contractors to ride the dead horse.
12. Harnessing several dead horses together for increased speed.
13. Declaring that "No horse is too dead to beat."
14. Providing additional funding to increase the horse's performance.
15. Do a Cost Analysis study to see if contractors can ride it cheaper.
16. Purchase a product to make dead horses run faster.
17. Declare the horse is "better, faster and cheaper" dead.
18. Form a quality circle to find uses for dead horses.
19. Revisit the performance requirements for horses.
20. Say this horse was procured with cost as an independent variable.
21. Promote the dead horse to a supervisory position.

Of course not, you are advocating a weight classification which benefits your son!

OK. But, that is a weak argument. It would also benefit many other kids, not just his son.

Are you talking about 6A schools here? You have to look at wrestling as a whole not just one level. The smaller schools already have a hard enough time finding kids to fill the 189/215/285 weight classes. Why add one more when we already have a hard enough time filling them? Besides how many HWT's actually fit in the 250-285 range? I've seen plenty around 230-245 so if you do add another weight class it leaves another one open. I just do not see an advantage. The average kids in high school weighs again between 125-175, so thus there are more weight classes. Also the 103-119 range is for undeveloped underclassmen or smaller mature uppperclassment. Thus the reason for all the lower and middle weights. In the upperweights there usually isn't the competition that the other weights have, but STA seems to have an exception.

Richard,

Advocating a position that benefits your son doesn't make your stance invalid.

Did anyone say anything about invalid?

Vince is certainly entitled to his opinion.

I simply can not recall an instance when Vince and I have shared the same viewpoint and this is no different.

Richard, first thanks for making my day by telling all of us that you can't recall an instance where we have shared the same viewpoint, I was really beginning to worry. Now I feel much better about myself. That revelation is certainly most appreciated.

Richard, I am beginning to think you are worried about this topic. You have posted about four or five times on it. That seems strange for someone who thinks that the topic originator is beating a dead horse? Richard, stop worrying. I don't think it is possible for dead horses to resurrect back to life. Your frequent posting on a dead horse subject makes one wonder if Richard Salyer himself might have some self interest motive on this subject. Are you worried that they might reduce the amount of weight classes for lower weight wrestlers if they decide to add one or two for heavier wrestlers?

I really don't know what you are going to come up with next on this topic. First you basically insult the heavier wrestlers by posting three articles on obesity. Then you agree with someone that I am beating dead horses. Then when I say I don't think I am beating a dead horse you make the statement that of course I don't because this will benefit my son (which I will seriously address in another post later) and now to my joy you have admitted publicly that you can't recall ever agreeing with me on anything. Really Richard, what next is in store from you on this topic? I guess I just need to stay tuned.

EJ may have been able to competed with Hammer for 215, but even if he could have won the spot you still had one potential state placer out the mix for Aquinas due to the lack of weight classes for heavier wrestlers.

Also I will challenge your statement about Hammer not being that awesome because he took fifth in 5A. I think 215 5A was a very difficult weight class this year. I know that at Blue Valley Northwest's Husky Invitational this year that Curtis (6th at State in 5A) took first and Hammer took second. I believe this year's 6A 215 champion who is a also a very good wrestler took fourth at the Husky this year.



I am suggesting at the national level. However, two years ago Aquinas wrestled in a Texas tournament and Texas had that extra 180 class. Aquinas adjusted to it as that gave my son an opportunity to wrestle a varsity tournament that year. He was running second team at 189 last year to EJ Walter and EJ was a light 189 last year so he was able to wrestle 180 in Texas for this one tournament. I don't forsee that Kansas would go alone with an extra weight class like Texas does with 180 but I think Kansas would survive if it did decide to put in an extra weight class for heavier wrestlers.

Alex,

I am talking about all classes not just 6A or 5A. As far as your point about the smaller schools having trouble now filling all the weight classes, I must admit I am not aware of that problem, but one of my main objectives with the proposal to add one or two classes for heavier kids is to attract more heavier kids into wrestling. I really do believe that many football players do not want to cut weight to make 189 or 215 because they want to put on muscle weight instead for football. If they did not have to cut as much weight maybe more would come out and I think that could be true for smaller schools too. I just want to see wrestling grow and for there to be more opportunity for the bigger kids in wrestling.

Also realistically, I know if any weight classes were to be added it would only be one weight class. For that reason what I would propose would be to lower 189 to 185, add the extra weight class at around 200 to 205 and raise 215 to around 225 to 230 so those 230-245 wrestlers you referred to would still be in the 285 class.

Chief Renegade, I would add that it also does not make it a bad stance. I am sure that Richard has heard of Plato's famous saying that "Necessity is the mother of invention." Another one attributed to David Rockerfeller is "If necessity it the mother of invention, discontent is the father of progress".

I was reading an article printed in the Kansas City Star this weekend in its Parade Magazine insert this Sunday called Do you have a better idea? by Ian Ayres and Barry Nalebuff. It started off with these two paragraphs.

"Back in the days of typewriters, the mother of the Monkees guitarist Mike Nesmith got tired of retyping to correct mistakes. So Bette Nesmith cooked up the first batch of Liquid Paper in a blender and poured it into a nail-polish container. She eventually sold the business to Gillette for $48 million.

To come up with great ideas, you just need to pay attention to things that annoy you. And you have to be willing to challenge the status quo. Creativity isn't some magical process. It's often possible to generate great ideas by taking an existing approach and simply flipping it around..."

Well I guess only two weight classes for 91 pounds (215 and 285) after 189 annoys me. And I am willing to challenge the status quo if I believe I have an idea that could improve something.

Vince -
Don't get me wrong. I don't dislike your idea. I just don't think it is going to happen. At least, I don't think it is going to happen by posting on the Kansas talk forum. Maybe letters to the National High School Coaches Association or something. If this topic was milk its shelf life would have long expired.

And I thought Frank Zappa was the mother of inventions.

Okay Richard besides my last reply to Chief Renegade that self interest is not necessarily a bad thing since necessity is often the mother of invention, I want to respond to your comment about the benefits to my son as the reason for my supporting this proposal.

I think you might be the only one worried that the powers to be are going to read my post and actually add another weight class in time to benefit my son in high school. In no way do I think that this proposal of mine would be enacted anytime soon by the powers to be. My son only has two years left. He weighs about 225 and has been putting on 20 pounds of muscle weight (not obese weight) a year since he was in 120 12&U as a sixth grader as a result of his year around strength training. His goal for both football and wrestling is to put on another 20 to 25 pounds of muscle weight this year for his junior year of competition. That would put him at 245 to 250 and he would still be in the heavyweight division anyway. His only potential for gain would be if they bumped 215 up to 225 or 230 that there would be a few less competitors in 285. But as I previously stated I have no illusions that any new weight class would be added before he graduated anyway. I would love to see it. The sooner the better as far as I am concerned but I am pretty sure it will not happen that soon.

I really do see this as unfair to heavier wrestlers, so I would like to see that corrected for future wrestlers. I also really want to see wrestling grow in participation and popularity and I believe this would help that happen. If you want to look at it that it is because of self interest for my son's benefit, go ahead. I wonder how you explain my continued support for not having 8th graders compete against 9th graders at Kids State? Is that self interest to benefit my son too who is now in 10th grade?

Mr. Disney,

Maybe Zappa was the mother of inventions. I just goggled the saying today and they attributed it to Plato. I am just trying to change some opinions on this in the forum with the thought that more support might make it more likely to someday happen. People have changed my opinions on things in the forum before. Jeff Broadbent, sportsfan02 and some others have changed my opinion on the 6&U at Kids State issue. I agree with you that the more likely way to make it happen would be to petition the NHSCAA group and I will do that based on your advice and I believe of Klint Deere in an earlier post.

Heck there are plenty of big schools that can't even fill a roster, that's why a lot of colleges drop wrestling too in my opinion...it all goes back to the high schools...an admin is more than likely to see his first wrestling match at a high school dual and have that stick with him if he moves on toward eventually being a big wig on the college scene...seeing forfeitures is a sign for me to say...WHOA!!! Let's find a sport that we can fill a roster, like Tennis or Golf.

Not sure how to word this, but what percentage of weight difference is there within the weight classes? ie: take the bottom weight of a class, and top weight of a class and figure the percentage difference between those wrestlers.

Mike:

See my opening topic introduction post. I included these numbers on it and I believe it answers your question.

103
112- 9 lbs - 8.74%
119- 7 lbs - 6.25%
125- 6 lbs - 5.04%
130- 5 lbs - 4.00%
135- 5 lbs - 3.85%
140- 5 lbs - 3.70%
145- 5 lbs - 3.57%
152- 7 lbs - 4.83%
160- 8 lbs - 5.26%
171- 11 lbs- 6.88%
189- 18 lbs-10.53%
215- 26 lbs-13.76%
285- 70 lbs-32.56%

Thanks Vince, it would have helped to start over on keeping up with this.

[quote=Husker Fan][quote=Disney]Vince -
Don't get me wrong. I don't dislike your idea. I just don't think it is going to happen. At least, I don't think it is going to happen by posting on the Kansas talk forum.

************************Its (the talk forum) as good as place as any to start. It doesn't have to be an either/or - it can and is a both/and. Talk it up. Write it up. Talk to 'low' folks. Talk to 'high' folks. Get the word OUT to any one and every one.

I wrestled 215 all of my high school then in college wrestled 197. I agree there sould be a weight class above it at about 235 but. If you look at it on a national scale most of the better hwts are around 235 to 245 weight then u have your few exceptions. How can you add something when the olympics is 264.2. It would be great but you have to look at it in alot of ways.

I simply do not see adding a heavier weight class. What I see as a possibility eventually is bumping 215 up to 220 or even 225. I know that there has been a little discussion on that, especially considering the fact that 275 was bumped 10 last season. There are not a lot of great athletes in the 225-285 pound range that have what it takes to stick with a wrestling program over the long haul. Don't get me wrong, there are some outstanding athletes there, simply not a lot of them, compared to the 135-171 areas, in my honest opinion. The national federation did some extensive surveying and research on this toic several years ago. Those heavier classes are already hard to fill. Please read my post on beating dead horses...

I know I saw a lot of them the one year I played college football at KSU in 1969. That was a long time ago and we had quite a few very good athletes on that team coached by Vince Gibson that were in the 225-285 range. Any high school wrestling team would have loved to had those guys on their team. KSU was not even an elite football program then. I think they were just over a .500 record team during the Gibson years. That was over 35 years ago. Kids are bigger today. Are you saying there are not that many great 225 to 285 pound athletes wrestling or you actually saying there are not that many 225 pound to 285 pound athletes period? If you mean all sports, realize that you are including a lot of football and even basketball players in that statement. If that is what you mean I think you would get a lot of disagreement from people across the country. Maybe not on this forum, since wrestling is a sport that traditionally has more smaller athletes but with the general sports public you would find a lot of people who would argue that point with you. I guess it depends on your background and perspective, I had a big argument with a pretty good ex-football player last year who told me he did not think wrestlers in general were that good of athletes even college wrestlers.

If you mean bumping up 215 to 220 or 225 without adding an additional weight class, you would just give the football coaches even more incentive to not encourage their players to wrestle after their football season. I doubt most football coaches whose players are around 200 to 220 during football season are very interested in having their players drop their weight to the 189 level.

As far as reading your dead horse post, I read your first paragraph and I read your first point. I stopped reading at that point because I did not consider it worth my time. That would be my advice to you on this topic too if it bothers you so much that I am beating on a dead horse. No one is making you read my stuff. Somehow though I kind of think that you and Richard both deep down really don't think this is a dead horse and are very concerned that one or two weight classes for heavier wrestlers will eventually be added and it might somehow adversely effect the number of classes for lighter wrestlers. I think you both know that kids are getting bigger today. I have been finding some studies that show how the mean weight for 15 to 18 year olds has been significantly rising since 1971. These numbers would not justify a division of 10 weight classes up to 160 and only four after 160. If this rising mean weight trend continues and it doesn't seem to be stopping, I think wrestling is going to be forced to adjust weights upward and offer more classes for heavier wrestlers.

Vince-

You also have to realize just because there were 30 kids in the 220-285 range were they all from the same school? No they were all spread out one from each or possibly two. I do not see a valid point in your point there.

Also the reason for the kids getting larger is largely due in part to physical inactivity, thus do they participate in sports especially as demanding as wrestling?

view this website, http://www.asbj.com/evs/05/studenthealth.html , and click on the average weight button on the right side of the article. It shows that the average high school male weighs 150.3 compared to the 135.5 in 1966. They have grown by 15lbs, thus the 10 lbs increase in the upperweights, so to duely justify that shift should we shift all the weights up 10lbs?

I couldn't find a chart showing the weight distribution of 18 year old males now, but I'm sure the 50th percentile would lie somewhere around 140-155lbs range, not anywhere near the 170-185 range justifying more weight classes up there.

Vince if you can find me the chart that shows where the median lies in the 50th percentile in the 170-185 range I'll join your cause to get another weight class. Until then i'll keep proving we don't need another weight class.

Very good points made. I remember Norton had a phenomenal hwt though that only weight 190lbs or so in the late 90's. We as a state could add a weight on our own (Texas has a 180 class and NY has a 95lb class)...however when you go to National Tournaments or anything out of state you have to go to one weight: 180 you go 189 or 171 come nationals and so on.

I think for duals it might not be bad to have an extra weight that way you can go tiebreaker and do heads up in breaking a tie (let's not allow ties anymore in duals please!)

Anyway that's my 2cents...

By the way I know about that 215 cut down in college...I went to 184 my 1st two years of wrestling in college. I'm just glad I didn't have Bojangles down in Oklahoma like you did out east (this is Josh right?)

Yes sir that bojangles is good. I made the cut down to 84 a couple of times also and it sucks.

Yeah its josh

The following is a data summary of the entries by weight classification at the recent NHSCA National Tournaments.

Senior Nationals
Wt. - Entries - % of Entries
103 - 15 - 1.85%
112 - 39 - 4.80%
119 - 55 - 6.77%
125 - 66 - 8.13%
130 - 63 - 7.76%
135 - 67 - 8.25%
140 - 67 - 8.25%
145 - 81 - 9.98%
152 - 68 - 8.37%
160 - 66 - 8.13%
171 - 55 - 6.77%
189 - 62 - 7.64%
215 - 57 - 7.02%
285 - 51 - 6.28%
Total - 812

Junior Nationals
Wt. - Entries - % of Entries
103 - 25 - 3.25%
112 - 62 - 8.06%
119 - 73 - 9.49%
125 - 69 - 8.97%
130 - 62 - 8.06%
135 - 72 - 9.36%
140 - 56 - 7.28%
145 - 60 - 7.80%
152 - 59 - 7.67%
160 - 53 - 6.89%
171 - 45 - 5.85%
189 - 47 - 6.11%
215 - 46 - 5.98%
275 - 40 - 5.20%
Total - 769

Sophomore Nationals
Wt. - Entries - % of Entries
103 - 52 - 9.76%
112 - 49 - 9.19%
119 - 51 - 9.57%
125 - 56 - 10.51%
130 - 45 - 8.44%
135 - 41 - 7.69%
140 - 36 - 6.75%
145 - 40 - 7.50%
152 - 39 - 7.32%
160 - 33 - 6.19%
171 - 30 - 5.63%
189 - 28 - 5.25%
215 - 17 - 3.19%
285 - 16 - 3.00%
Total - 533

Freshman Nationals
Wt. - Entries - % of Entries
103 - 75 - 22.12%
112 - 45 - 13.27%
119 - 38 - 11.21%
125 - 31 - 9.14%
130 - 25 - 7.37%
135 - 26 - 7.67%
140 - 12 - 3.54%
145 - 16 - 4.72%
152 - 18 - 5.31%
160 - 13 - 3.83%
171 - 13 - 3.83%
189 - 15 - 4.42%
215 - 7 - 2.06%
285 - 5 - 1.47%
Total - 339

Total All NHSCA Nationals
Wt. - Entries - % of Entries
103 - 167 - 6.81%
112 - 195 - 7.95%
119 - 217 - 8.85%
125 - 222 - 9.05%
130 - 195 - 7.95%
135 - 206 - 8.40%
140 - 171 - 6.97%
145 - 197 - 8.03%
152 - 184 - 7.50%
160 - 165 - 6.73%
171 - 143 - 5.83%
189 - 152 - 6.20%
215 - 127 - 5.18%
285 - 112 - 4.57%
Total - 2453

Vince-

Will you now please show me where there is such a need for another weight class? It appears there is equal opportunity in each weigth class above 160... the rest seem to be above the 6+/- % in the 171/189/215/285 weights. The data seems to show me that there is more participants in the lower to mid classes thus there should be more there. That's why there are 5lbs weight increaments as opposed to the greater weight classes above. If you split up the upper weights one more time it will lower the percentage of kids in each of the weight classes thereafter even more leading to less kids in each weight. Some times you just need to cut your losses....

Suddenly this topic dies, was it because the facts show otherwise? Or did everyone just seem to lose interest?

The following is a data summary of the entries by weight classification at the recent Brute Adidas National Tournament.

Division - Weight - Entries - % of Entries
Combined - 106 - 56 - 5.79%
Combined - 115 - 71 - 7.34%
Combined - 122 - 72 - 7.45%
Combined - 128 - 76 - 7.86%
Combined - 133 - 79 - 8.17%
Combined - 138 - 62 - 6.41%
Combined - 143 - 77 - 7.96%
Combined - 148 - 85 - 8.79%
Combined - 155 - 80 - 8.27%
Combined - 163 - 79 - 8.17%
Combined - 174 - 69 - 7.14%
Combined - 192 - 62 - 6.41%
Combined - 218 - 52 - 5.38%
Combined - 288 - 47 - 4.86%
Total Entries - 967

Division - Weight - Entries - % of Entries
9 - 106 - 36 - 15.65%
9 - 115 - 30 - 13.04%
9 - 122 - 22 - 9.57%
9 - 128 - 20 - 8.70%
9 - 133 - 17 - 7.39%
9 - 138 - 12 - 5.22%
9 - 143 - 18 - 7.83%
9 - 148 - 11 - 4.78%
9 - 155 - 14 - 6.09%
9 - 163 - 17 - 7.39%
9 - 174 - 12 - 5.22%
9 - 192 - 8 - 3.48%
9 - 218 - 7 - 3.04%
9 - 288 - 6 - 2.61%
Total Entries - 230

Division - Weight - Entries - % of Entries
10 - 106 - 14 - 4.98%
10 - 115 - 24 - 8.54%
10 - 122 - 26 - 9.25%
10 - 128 - 29 - 10.32%
10 - 133 - 26 - 9.25%
10 - 138 - 20 - 7.12%
10 - 143 - 29 - 10.32%
10 - 148 - 25 - 8.90%
10 - 155 - 22 - 7.83%
10 - 163 - 18 - 6.41%
10 - 174 - 9 - 3.20%
10 - 192 - 16 - 5.69%
10 - 218 - 14 - 4.98%
10 - 288 - 9 - 3.20%
Total Entries - 281

Division - Weight - Entries - % of Entries
11 - 106 - 5 - 1.46%
11 - 115 - 12 - 3.51%
11 - 122 - 20 - 5.85%
11 - 128 - 21 - 6.14%
11 - 133 - 29 - 8.48%
11 - 138 - 21 - 6.14%
11 - 143 - 20 - 5.85%
11 - 148 - 39 - 11.40%
11 - 155 - 30 - 8.77%
11 - 163 - 35 - 10.23%
11 - 174 - 35 - 10.23%
11 - 192 - 25 - 7.31%
11 - 218 - 25 - 7.31%
11 - 288 - 25 - 7.31%
Total Entries - 342

Division - Weight - Entries - % of Entries
12 - 106 - 1 - 0.88%
12 - 115 - 5 - 4.39%
12 - 122 - 4 - 3.51%
12 - 128 - 6 - 5.26%
12 - 133 - 7 - 6.14%
12 - 138 - 9 - 7.89%
12 - 143 - 10 - 8.77%
12 - 148 - 10 - 8.77%
12 - 155 - 14 - 12.28%
12 - 163 - 9 - 7.89%
12 - 174 - 13 - 11.40%
12 - 192 - 13 - 11.40%
12 - 218 - 6 - 5.26%
12 - 288 - 7 - 6.14%
Total Entries - 114

Alex,

I apologize to you and anyone else who was waiting for my replies. I posted on this topic ten days ago and after that post I decided to stay off the forum completely for at least ten days. I was getting a little too obsessed with the topic. This is the first time I have been on the website since my last post on the topic ten days ago.

I have read the posts since my last post. Some of my thoughts to them are:

1) Whatever the median weight is for juniors and seniors should be the starting point for making weights. If the median weight is somewhere around 152 then I think half the weights should be up to 152, and half over. Right now we just have 5 weights over 152 (160, 171, 189, 215 and 285) and 9 weights up to 152. At the very least we should have two more in my opinion if the median weight for juniors and seniors is around 152. I believe the median weight is probably actually higher than 152 and closer to 160 for juniors and seniors. I saw the National Health Examination Survey 1999-2002 and it showed that the mean weight for 15 years old boys is 150.3, 16 years olds 163.7, 17 years olds 166.3 and 18 years old boys 166.4. These mean weights have risen from their 1966-1970 survey signficantly when they were 135.5 for a 15 year old, 142.6 for a 16 year old, 149.6 for a 17 year old, and it did not list a figure for a 18 year old. Weights have increased significantly since wrestling's weight classes were first established. Wrestling has not adjusted weights to match this increase in size of high school students. Personally I really believe wrestling should be basing its weight classes on median weights of juniors and seniors which I think is at least 160 median weight. Weights that are dominated by freshmen do no really make sense to me at a varsity level of competition. Even if you take the median weight of all four classes in high school, I am confident that the median weight is signficantly higher than it was 25 to 30 years ago or whenever wrestling's current weight classes were established. Wrestling needs to start adjusting its weights to reflect it. I would prefer wrestling did it by just adding classes for the heavier wrestlers and not dropping weight classes. As a reminder if I could only add one at this time I would change our current heavier weights to this:

from 189 to 185, add a 200, change 215 to 225, and keep 285 at 285.

2) I will come back to this later. This took longer than I thought it would.

I am not sure how Richard's statistics about two out of season tournaments prove anything. Many wrestlers move on to other sports and don't even enter these tournaments. My son decided to play rugby this spring. Many other heavier wrestlers move on to track & field, baseball, and weight training for their upcoming football and wrestling seasons. Besides that at the Senior Nationals I believe that this was the first year for freshmen, sophomores and juniors so their participation will need time to develop in this tournament. The only possible relevant class to look at was the senior class. Look at how low the participation level is at the lowest weight class for juniors and seniors. I wasn't at the Brute Nationals. I was at rugby games but I would think that the Easter weekend had to hold down participation in that tournament, so I also don't see this tournament as some standard to be used for judging in season national weight classes. Remember also one of the main objectives is to increase participation of heavier football type athletes so if anything these statistics would just prove that we need to do some different things to make that happen.

to vince nowak...

thank you

personally, i have a 9 year old son who wrestles to help his football and stay in shape.

my son is a heavy-weight wrestler. he was a heavy-weight wrestler at the under 6 years old division, he is in the heavy-weight division in the 10 years old division and he might be later.

i appreciate your voice to have more heavy weight classes.

thank you

boo,

I appreciate your compliment. I will continue to speak out for more weight classes for heavier wrestlers. I am also going to petition the national governing body for this to happen. I have already e-mailed them asking what I need to do to submit a formal petition. This is something that will probably not happen soon. I doubt anything will happen before my son who is going to be a junior next year graduates, but I hope it happens way before your 9 year old goes to high school. It is going to take the support of a lot of people like yourself to make it happen. I would ask you to stay in touch with the situation and get other parents of heavier wrestlers that your son competes with involved. I would also encourage you to promote the sport of wrestling to his football teammates. We need more of the football players wrestling and is best to start wrestling at your son's age. The two sports compliment each other and in my opinion all football players should wrestle, but I think wrestling needs to make some changes with additional weight classes at all levels from kids to college to attract more of them into the sport of wrestling. Tell the parents of your son's teammates that wrestling is the greatest sport in the world for kids. You would be telling them the truth. My son started in the first grade and these last ten years of wrestling for him have been tremendous experience for him. Wrestling is a character building sport for young people. It takes a lot of character and courage for a young person to get out on that mat one on one in front of all those people. Let all your son's friends know that. And again I appreciate your support on this topic. We are going to have to get a lot of parents of upper middle weight to heavyweight wrestlers voice their support to the national governing body to make this happen someday.

Not sure how this relates,a couple days ago I watched part of a program on PBS showing how kids were heaver than ever in this country.A panel of healthcare experts all agreed this was a very unhealthy trend,infact they called it a deadly epidemic.

My son is 14 (almost15) 6'3" 235lbs...wrestled varsity heavyweight this year and I can tell you...he is not unhealthy...as is most of the varsity heavyweight wrestlers he encounted this year. Yes there was the one every now and then he came across....but for the most part...most heavyweights were big boys that were NOT unhealthy!

It is true that there is an overweight problem in America today but have our extremely low weight classes in wrestling done anything to stop it? Our low weight classes have been in place for years and the rising weights in children continue to climb. The rising weights are not all due to obesity situations. Kids are also taller today. My dad was bigger than his dad, I was bigger than my dad and now my son looks like he will soon be bigger than me.

I also agree with wrestlingparent's comment that most of the wrestlers that my son encountered in 285 this year were not obese but football player type athletes in good muscular condition. Another thing that contributes to the heavier weights in athletes is the fact that they start hitting the weight and strength training rooms earlier and more often today. In the late 1960's when I was playing high school football it was rare for someone to be lifting weights in high school. I was around 200 pounds as an offensive and defensive tackle and I was considered big. Today at that weight that is probably not even considered that big for a running back. Today some schools actually have weight trainers in their high schools and also have weight rooms with a lot of equipment. Athletes are bigger today due to the natural evolution of growth between generations and due to this extra weight training.

Yes there is a weight problem in America today but let's not mix it up with the issue that we need more weight classes for the upper half of our student population over the 50% median weight. If we want to be concerned about a weight problem in wrestling perhaps we should be concerned about how our low weight classes might contribute to excess cutting of weights for our lighter wrestlers and excessive back and forth of their weights during the season. I have seen some articles that point out that this too is dangerous for an athlete's long term health and may also stunt their long term growth development. I think this is a more significant weight problem in wrestling today than an obesity problem with our wrestlers.

They certainly aren't unhealthy in college either...those kids are monsters!

Extra pounds threaten health of teen football players

Wednesday, January 31, 2007

By Jack Kelly, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette


Can you eat your way to fame and fortune? Many high school football players appear to think so.

Two Iowa State university researchers found that 9 percent of 251 linemen on Iowa high school teams they studied were obese.

Overall, 45 percent of the high school linemen were overweight, and another 28 percent were at risk for being overweight. A national survey of boys aged 12-19 found just 18.3 percent to be overweight.

The study, published last week in the Journal of the American Medical Association, was a followup to a 2005 study at the University of North Carolina that found that 56 percent of NFL football players could be considered obese by the most commonly used medical standard.

"Adolescent and teenage athletes are trying to emulate the bodies of NFL and college linemen," said Dr. Joseph Colella, a bariatric surgeon at Allegheny General Hospital.

"We don't know if they're big because of their desire to play football, or because of their lifestyle habits," said Kelly Laurson, lead researcher of the Iowa State study, of the high school linemen he studied.

"We obviously suspect these linemen are being pressured by coaches to gain weight or may want to gain weight because when you watch the NFL, you see these big linemen," said Mr. Laurson, himself a former high school football player.

The standard typically used in medicine to measure obesity is body mass index, and it often is misleading where athletes are concerned.

BMI is body mass divided by the square of height. If you're an ordinary person, and you have a BMI over 30, you are severely obese. If you have a BMI over 40, you are morbidly obese, and in serious trouble.

"It's an inadequate judge, but it's easy," said Dr. Edward Snell, director of sports medicine at Allegheny General Hospital and team physician for the Pittsburgh Pirates.

BMI can be misleading for athletes who do a lot of strength training, as football players do, because BMI does not distinguish between muscle and fat. To determine whether a football player is obese, he must also be tested to determine what percentage of his body weight is fat (anything over 25 percent is not good).

A study by the Scripps Howard news service indicated seriously overweight NFL players are more than twice as likely to die before age 50 than are their trimmer teammates.

The average weight of NFL linemen has grown from 281 pounds 20 years ago to 318 pounds today, the Scripps Howard study said.

Even players whose extra weight is mostly muscle are at greater risk, said Charles Yesalis, a professor of health policy and sport science at Penn State University.

"When you get that big -- regardless of whether your body is muscle or fat -- your heart is stressed," Mr. Yesalis said.

And when football players stop playing football, that muscle can quickly turn to fat.

"Our greatest concern is for those who have gained massive amounts of weight and are unable to control it once their careers are over," Dr. Colella said.

However bad excessive weight is for adults, it's worse for adolescents, Dr. Colella said.

"Adolescent obesity persists into adult obesity," he said. "Adult obesity is essentially incurable without surgical intervention."

The obese have much higher incidences of cardiovascular disease and diabetes than do people of normal weight.

"In a very frightening way, we are seeing pre-diabetic conditions in adolescents who are classified as either severe or morbidly obese," Dr. Colella said.

In addition, the extra weight places more stress on the growing bones of adolescents than it does on those of fully grown adults, increasing the likelihood of injury.

Bone plates are areas of growing tissue on the ends of long bones of children and adolescents. If an adolescent is obese, his bone growth will be stunted, and his bones will be at risk for early degeneration, Dr. Snell said.

"The greater the weight, the greater the stress [on the bone plates]," he said.

Just warning adolescents of the health risks of excessive weight is unlikely to be much of a deterrent to young people who have visions of a free college education or a multimillion-dollar pro contract, Dr. Colella said.

"Until there is a weight limit imposed on those athletes, there will be no stopping anybody," he said. "It's like steroids, until they were banned, everybody used them."

Mr. Yesalis thinks a weight limit of 275 pounds should be set for NFL players.

"It would reduce injuries and have a positive effect on the short- and long-term health of these men," he told Scripps Howard.

Dr. Colella wouldn't go that far, but he thinks the physicals all high school football players must take should include testing for pre-diabetic conditions and other ailments related to obesity.


(Jack Kelly can be reached at jkelly@post-gazette.com or 412-263-1476. )

I consider that to be a basic flaw in the analysis. I got on a Body Mass Index website and saw that the following was the BMI standards:

Underweight=<18.5
Normal weight=18.5-24.9
Overweight=25-29.9
Obesity=BMI of 30 or greater

It had a calculator and I put in wrestlingparents' son statistics of 6'3" and 235 pounds. It came up with a 29.4 reading or borderline obese. My son is around 5'11.5" and his average weight was 220 this season. That came up 30.3 so that is in the obese category. I know an another young wrestler in this area who is close to the 6'3" and 235 pounds that my son and wrestlingparents's son competed against this year. These three young athletes are muscular and I don't think anyone who knows them would consider any of them severely overweight or obese.

Are there football players and 285 wrestlers who are overweight and possibly even obese? Yes, without a doubt there are. But again I would like to know how all these very low weight classes in high school wrestling are helping to prevent that problem or the general overweight problem with young people? If anything I would think you would help all these overweight and possibly obese football players to lose weight by throwing in a 230 to 240 weight class. It might encourage some of them to lose some fat to make that weight class. I wonder if you are really worried about that or are you more concerned about losing some of the lower weight classes or heaven forbid maybe wrestling would extend the lowest weight class differential from 5 pounds to 6 or dare I even suggest it 7 pounds. How can a 140 pound wrestler compete against a 147 pound wrestler? No problem with a 220 pound wrestler going against a 270 pound wrestler though is there?

It really bothers me that a couple of you are choosing to discourage more weight classes for the wrestlers over the 50% median weight by bringing up the overweight problem in America today. If you want to find out what is really considered the weight problem in wrestling today go to a search engine like google and type in this phrase: Wrestling Weight Problems. See what kind of articles come up. I don't think you are going to find too many articles that take the postition that wrestling has too many weight classes for wrestlers over the 50% median weight. I think you will find plenty of articles about the dangers of too much weight cutting, weight fluctuation during the season and the problems of too low of a body fat percentage in teenagers.

I'm all for more weightclasses.Wrestling is a sport where everyone should be able to compete regardless of size. Just happened across part of this show on PBS talking about the rise in weight of children,and remembered you citing this same fact.Came across this article with a google search and was supprised by some of the claims cited. Found other articles that were more shocking such as the expected life span of an X- NFL players to be 55 yrs.with weight being the biggest factor and many more.I don't believe everything I read or see on TV but if I had a son with a football type body I think I would now take a harder look at him "beefing up" for football than I would a couple days ago.Still I think more weight classes would be a positive and never indicated otherwise

Good point and I understand your motive now. This is a sensitive subject though for those with sons in the heavyweight bracket to be considered severely overweight or obese. A 6'3' 235 kid can be well muscled and not even close to obese. Many of these NFL players who have the obesity problems are well over 300 pounds and that is not what we are talking about in high school wrestling with our 285 limit. Could a committment to gaining as much weight as possible for football lead to overweight problems later in life? I think that is very possible if football player is gaining fat pounds instead of muscle pounds during his career. Some football players actually lose or at least maintain weight after their careers are over. That can be done thru aerobic training, cutting back on the heavy bulk weight training and changing their eating habits. Your statement about taking a harder look at beefing up for football though is a valid one. I am going to talk to my son about it and make sure he understands the dangers of putting on fat pounds instead of muscle pounds.

On the lower end of the weight classes, wrestlers and parents need to be concerned with health risks too. There are health risks that can develop from trying to reach too low of a weight class for a person and from getting into a syndrome where a wrestler is constantly having his weight fluctuate during the season by letting weight rise after a tournament and then later in the week cutting severely to make weight for the next tournament.

You said that you are for adding more weight classes. I would like to see that too. If it is impossible to have more than 14 weight classes I think it needs to be changed to bump the mid weight class 140 up at least 10 pounds to 150. I think wrestling needs to do this because I believe the median weight for teenage boys has risen by over 10 pounds since these weight classes were established decades ago. I also think that 103 is too low of a starting point and that is mainly freshmen and sophomores who are in that weight class. Many of these freshmen and sophomores have to severely cut weight to make it.

If we can only have 14 weight classes, I think high school wrestling should consider changing to the following:

1) 112
2) 119
3) 125
4) 131
5) 137
6) 143
7) 150
8) 158
9) 167
10) 178
11) 190
12) 205
13) 230
14) 285

As I said I'm all for more weight classes but would never consider excluding the lightest weight a positive for wrestling.These atheletes because of weight and title 9's devistation of gymnastics and other sports have no other sport they can compete in.I think wrestling should be for everyone regardless of size.This years NCAA champ at 125 wrestled 103 till his jr. year and only moved up then because his skill level was way above most.he wrestled 112 at sr.nats.Should he have set the bench his fist 2 yrs. of highschool so more football types could compete?I don't think so.One of Kansas best wrestlers the last 5 yrs. Seth Metzler was an undersizer 103 lber till his jr. year the list goes on.Most college 125 and 133 lbers wrestled some at 103 in highschool.I know this years NJCAA 125 champ and outstanding wrestler of the tourny did.If more weights can not be added I'm all for bringing back unlimited at heavyweight.Excluding someone because of size is wrong IMO.

A few who wrestled 103- ZAch Roberson,Bo Manes,Tanner Gardner,Eric Luedke,Earl Jones,,Jake Kriegbaum,Bill Gable,Justin Ware,Dustin May,J.B Harding,Austin Devoe,Doug Hoover,Cody Garcia,Luke Metzler,Seth Metzler,Devin Swartz,Daniel Prater,Blaze Bahe,Beau Vest,Levi Younkin,Garret Harding,Aron Patton,James Ball,Beau Tillman,Brett Bahe,Tim Elliott,Clay Madden,Tristan Deshazer,Issac Wall,Blake Fisher,Donnie Altman,Larry Perez,Trent Cox,Nicki Shumate,Nate Furches,John Keller,Paulie Hanson. Some of these may have cut weight severly as you suggest but I know for a fact many did not and plenty were under weight.Makes little difference to me what class they were in as highschool consists of 4 years an each of these guys were(are) a pleasure to watch,and deserved to compete.IMO

I understand both of your points of views, but I will have to go with dropping 103. The big deciding factor for me is this: in the heavy weight division, the borderline kids (from 225-240) have a risk of being seriously injured. Think what it would feel like if someone who weighs 285lbs just lands right on you. Kids at 103 could gain a few pounds by adjusting their eating and workout schedule. Either a 230 or a 240 (what they have in kids) would be a great choice and I'm sure there would be many great matches to watch in that weightclass.

esj:

I have also stated that I would prefer that weight classes not be dropped. My ultimate goal is for more opportunities not less in high school wrestling. So I would prefer to see 103 stay and the rest of the classes change to what I suggested in my last post yesterday on this topic. But ultimately if the national governing board is unwilling to bump the weights up to 15 weight classes than I do believe 103 should be dropped and changed to the ones I suggested which I believe are more reflective than high school wrestling's current weight classes of the 50% median weight level and the increased size of high school students today. Remember a lot of that increased size is due to increased height and improved strength training.

I am not sure why you are saying that wrestling is the only sport available to a smaller athlete since gymnastics was taken away from them. First of all wrestling would not be taken away from them. They would just have to wrestle up 9 pounds to 112. My son weighed 217 at regionals this year and probably averaged 220 for the year. He had to wrestle several kids at the 270 level this year. What is more unreasonable? My son at 220 going against a 270 wrestler is about the equivalent of a 91 pound against a 112 pound kid. I think you would find more sophomore, junior and senior athletes around 220 than you would find at 91 pounds. Secondly besides wrestling still being available to the smaller athlete there are other sports like cross country, soccer, swimming, and track & field.

I am not following your logic at all on your statement that asks if the 125 NCAA champion should have been forced to sit the bench his first two years so more football types can compete. My simple answer to that would be absolutely yes. Why should a lighter wrestler be given favorable treatment over a heavier athletes? I don't know the person's history but let's assume as a freshman that he weighed at least the 91 pounds that I used in the previous example, are you telling us that an NCAA champion would have been unable in his first two high school years to win his school's 1st team 112 position? I have a very hard time believing that statement. My son as a 220 sophomore this year was able to win his school's 285 first team position on the 5A state championship team and a nationally ranked team. I don't think my son has close to potential NCAA championship ability.
My son had to sit the bench last year as a freshman at Aquinas because of the lack of heavier weight classes and he spent the year as the 189 second team guy wrestling JV for the majority of the year. My son was a State kids wrestling champion in the 6th and 7th grade. He was a Liberty nationals champion as an 8th grader. I saw plenty of freshmen 103 and 112 wrestlers his freshmen year who had no where near his kids wrestling record wrestling varsity. Why was it more important for those lighter weight freshmen to have more opportunity to wrestle varsity last year than my heavier son? I played football in the late sixties and it was rare for a freshmen or sophomore to make the varsity team much less start. What is so wrong with a freshmen or sophomore not being varsity?

Due to the reasons that were stated in your article about the NFL, I don't think I am in favor of your statement about bringing back the unlimited weight class to high school wrestling. I think one doctor in your article suggested that the maximum NFL weight should be something like 285 pounds. Someday high school wrestling may need to bump 285 up just like it bumped it up from 275 last year, but for the reasons in your article I do not think we want to be in a hurry about it. High school wrestling certainly doesn't need to raise the upper limit before college wrestling would.

Very impressive list but again are you trying to tell me that these guys would not have been their school's 112 wrestler if 103 was not available. I bet at least over 90% of them would have as freshmen and still managed to had great records in 112.

From my perspective it would also be a pleasure for me and many others who enjoy football and high school upper weight wrestling (from 160 up to 285) to see more of these very fine football players competing in high school wrestling. I see so many great football athletes who do not wrestle and who I know could be great wrestlers. When you mention all these great light weight wrestlers. I can't help but think of how many great stories are we leaving out there of 160 to 285 athletes. Basically it comes down to opportunity. With ten weight classes up to 160 and only four over 160, high school wrestling is unfairly giving more opportunities to lighter athletes. It is just not even close to being fair and due to the increasing 50% median weight of athletes in high school today it is going to hurt wrestling participation unless it is adjusted.

I'd take that 90% bet ,several of these guys were not elgible their freshman year because they were too light,and several others barely made the weight requirment.I'm sure several could of moved up a weightclass,but I know this years NJCAA 125 champ and OW could not make the team his freshman year without 103.These weights are very competitive with a lot of these guys being one sport atheletes, he could however beat many of the heavier guys on his team including the 215 and heavyweight but not the 112 lber.I agree there are many heavier football guys who "could be" good wrestlers but I know there "are" many 103 and lighter wrestlers who train year round because there is no other sport that they can be competitive in.I do however wish there was a place for those who can't make 285 wrestling should be for everyone not just average sized guys.

I am not in favor of dropping 103 at all. Very few 9th and 10th graders cut alot of weight to get there. Most of the kids take supplements to try and gain weight. The 103 pounders have no other real sports that they can do. Big kids can play football and throw the shot put and discus in Track and Field. Not to mention that it is a whole lot easier to go through school and life a big guy rather than a small guy. I personaly would like to see the 98 pound weight class brought back and have one weight class for everyone over 200 pounds. They are mostly all boring matches anyways except for a dew of the guys. Let the big guys train year around for football rather than eliminate alot of talented wrestlers from the sport. The 103 and 112 pound divisions in Kansas are as tough as anybodys around the Country. There are more upperclassmen wrestling 103 and not cutting alot of weight than you think! Just some opinions.

I would also like to see 98 brought back,I know (most)highschool kids are larger than that but some are not.I think it's a shame these kids are left out.At the jr. college level I've seen plenty of guys with D-1 skills but will never be competitive D-1 at 125 because they're just not big enough.Most just don't continue after highschool, after a lifetime of work and dreams.I think Nash Burtin,Joey Stephens,and Dante Rogers Kansas kids who are wrestling in college would disagree with Mr.Nowaks view of lighter wrestlers getting unfair oppertunities in wrestling as do I.As to only one weightclass over 200 I don't see that as being good for the sport,but eliminaating 103 so more football players will have something to do in the offseason makes no sense at all.IMO

Vince, how many good kids are there behind 103lbs state champs that "could" be good if we had another 98lbs weight class again?

It's all what you see in your eyes as to what's best. I'm sure the panel that decides if we need more weight classes or not doesn't know anything. Without football we wouldn't have wrestling right? I mean football makes them better wrestlers, I mean dancers, I mean water polo players right?

I think if they're good enough athletes they can be just as disciplined as the rest of us are/were and learn to cut weight or gain it to succeed. It's part of the sport so why should we cater to the few so they can succeed. Let's cater those who are already here.If you really want to see more football players wrestling then recruit them and get them to go out.If they deserve to be there and wrestling they will battle for the starting spot and be the starter or they will ride the bench until it's their turn.

Also the median weight reflects the average weight of 18 year olds... what about the underclassmen (14-17) who are still developing, and thus do not weight the median of 160lbs? Could that be why there's more weight classes in the 125-152 range than up?

I can tell you from personal experience without 103 I wouldn't have been a 2x SQ... our 112 was just that much better than me, so are you saying because I couldn't have been the 112 starter I shouldn't have been the 103 starter? Or that I didn't deserve to be in a weight class that is made as to include the underdeveloped or smaller wrestlers?

As you quote here Vince...Why should a lighter wrestler be given favorable treatment over a heavier athletes?... why should we give heavier athletes greater treatment over the lighter athletes? I'd suggest writing to the NHSCA and asking them why they have more lighter weights than heavier ones, I'm sure they'd be glad to enlighten you.



If your son was good enough to start then he would have, plain and simple. He wasn't good enough last year so he got better apparently and has succeeded. Kid's titles mean nothing... certain kids get better others fall off the face of the mat... Hmm.... the late 60's... so what is that now about 40 years? Time's change, take a look at the rosters now of NCAA Basketball teams (Texas Star Player= Freshman?) Hell even in football freshmen make an immediate impact. I'm sure freshmen in wrestling make a small noise too (Nickerson, Schlatter, Varner) but I'm sure those guys don't deserve to start because they're freshmen and since I've been around longer I deserve to start. That's where wrestling is great, if you're the best you start if not it's that simple.

Too bad it is not a provable bet, I think I could make some easy money on that one. Heck it sounds like the NCAA champion could have made it as a freshmen 1st team varsity guy at a heavier weight for his school even all the way up to 215. I don't know what he weighed as a freshman but it sounds like he could have found a weight the equivalent of what my son did as a sophomore this year in wrestling 285 as a 220 pounder.

What do you mean that they could not have made it because they were too light and some barely could make the weight requirement? I guess I am not familiar with the minimum weight requirement at 103? Is there one?

Well I would have to bet there are a lot more guys cutting too much weight too get down to 103 than taking supplements to be competitive at the weight. I am pretty sure our freshmen 103 pounders over the last few years were not worrying about the need to take supplements.

I don't understand or accept this statement that this is the only sport available for a smaller athlete. It is a great one for the smaller athlete as it is for the larger athlete. Why can't a smaller athlete be competitive in cross country, soccer, swimming/diving, tennis, golf, track & field etc.?

Boring matches are the perspective of the fan I appreciate the matches of the bigger wrestlers more than the lighter ones. I also would rather watch a couple of linemen going at it in a football game than a wide receiver trying to get past a defensive back. This is not just about the 215 to 285 wrestlers either. It is about more opportunities for all wrestlers over 160. I loved watching 189 guys like Mamie, Evans, and the Ark City wrestler whose name unfortunately escapes me at the moment. If we had a 180 like Texas one more of those guys would have been a state champion in 5A this year. There are a lot more athletes like those three, Casey Curran, Zlatnick, Disney, Andrus, Holly and the Liberal 215 champion out there. I would think high school wrestling would want more of them out for wrestling.

Sorry Mr. Nowak. I didn't mean to disrespect anybody. I have yet to see a 200 pound plus guy get pushed to the back of the line or had to fight or take a bunch of crap like a 100 pound kid does. Almost all the other sports you mentioned either require speed or the country club crowd to succeed. I just don't want to see a slow footed financialy strapped kid be eliminated from sports so that a few football players can have more chances. I consider myself somewhat of an expert on the 103 class and I can tell you that there are a lot more kids taking supplements to gain weight than you think. I personally didn't have to cut any weight until I was a senior. I was an 85 pound freshman as well was Donnie Altman, Dennis Wood and Sharky and a lot of other kids. The days of only freshman and sophmores being 103 and 112 are gone. You are starting to see more and more upperclassmen in those spots. You are also starting to see the 230 to 250 pound guys taking it to the 285 pound guys. I am all for adding more weight classes if thats what you want to do, just not at the expense of the small guys. I go to a football school and those guys have it alot easier time in school than smaller kids. Wrestling is about the only sport where the small kids get an even playimg field, unlike life.

Scarecrow_103,

I don't think you disrepected anyone. You are just fighting for the smaller athletes. I am okay with that. I am fighting for the bigger ones. We are going to have differences of opinion. I got a bigger uphill battle though in high school wrestling. Ten weight classes up to 160 and only four above 160 is a big uphill battle and completely unfair in my opinion. I would prefer justing adding classes for the heavier wrestlers, but sometimes it just comes down to limitations.

As far as your comment about the other sports requiring speed. Football success requires that too and not all of the heavier wrestlers have that kind of speed (my son does not have good enough football speed). As far as some of them being country club sports, someone just recently posted on our website that due to all the high costs of tournaments (for those who choose to wrestle outside the high school season and in kids) that wrestling was beginning to resemble a country club sport. I would have to say that cross country and track are not country
club sports and have a lot of successful smaller athletes.

Alex,

I am going to respond to your post too, but I will do it later.

mr nowak,

you say that you find bigger wrestlers matches more fun to watch. i dont completely disagree with you from the standpoint i enjoy good 189+ matches just as much as the smaller ones. however, most people find more excitement at the lower weights because it is much fast. and i will say it takes two VERY good heavyweights to make the match exciting.
also, i enjoy the way the weights are spread because in wrestling having one class of kids doesnt cut it. you are right, mostly freshman and sophs do fill the 103-119 spots. and mostly juniors and seniors are placing at state at the 189-285 spots. of course there are exceptions. but what this does is force a program to have athletes in every class, not just a strong senior class, i think this is one of things that makes wrestling unique.
you have to remember that what you have witnessed is a specific program that is very good. part of having a good program is having good kids who cant make varsity, and that isnt just at the big weights. derby had a 112 who was the backup all year long and then got the opportunity to wrestle in regionals, he qualified for state and won 2 matches, beating a returning state placer and missing a medal himself by one match, had an unfortunate situation not happened with derby's varsity kid he never would have got to wrestle in regionals, thats just part of having a good program.

I don't know, but perhaps instead you could tell me how many 160 to 285 pound wrestlers who wrestle behind their first team counterpart could be good if we had more than 4 weight classes out of 14 available for them. Or perhaps you could tell me how many great athletes between 160 and 285 are out there who never even try wrestling but might if there was more opportunities for heavier athletes in wrestling.



When did anyone ever make that claim that without football we would not have wrestling? This all somewhat started in another topic when a couple of people made statements (and I believe you made one of them) that the heavyweight class was not that good this year. I responded to that and one of the observations I made was that it was not due to a lack of good bigger athletes in high school. I stated that a lot of these bigger athletes were just not wrestling and that wrestling should try to do things to get them wrestling. I never said football makes them better wrestlers but since you brought it up I have been told by a couple of coaches that are involved in both sports that the two sports do complement each other.



No, I guess my answer would be that as a 103 pound freshman or sophomore you just needed to be as disciplined as what you are suggesting for the heavier athletes. In your case you would have just needed to follow your own advice to the heavier wrestlers and just have been more disciplined and hit the weight room harder so you have could gain weight to succeed at the 112 level.



Seems like this could have applied to you also in your situation as a 103 pound wrestler trying to unseat the 112 pound kid. My son did lose his wrestle-off with our 189 pound kid in double overtime as a freshmen but he was good enough as a freshmen to be on the starting team when they went to Texas where there is another opportunity at the 180 pound division. He was also good enough as a freshman to replace the starter one week when he was injured and place first in their meet that weekend. He was also good enough to have a 6-4 record that year in 189 (a division that is predominantly juniors and seniors) and three of those victories were against guys who took first, third and fourth in a local 6A regional. He got a lot better this year but I think he was a varsity quality wrestler as a freshman too.



We have 10 weight classes up to 160 and only 4 from 160 to 285. It seems like we would have to add several weights for those 160 and above before we would have to be concerned about giving the heavier wrestlers preferential treatment over the lighter wrestlers.

I do like watching the lighter weight classes too, but what does it matter about what weight class that most people find most exciting? This should be about equal opportunity for the student population. I think wrestling should determine what the 50% median weight is and half the weights should be over it and half under. I don't believe that median weight is 140. The 1999-2002 National Health Examination Survey showed that the mean weight for boys in the United States was 150.3 for 15 year olds, 163.7 for 16 year olds, 166.3 for 17 year olds and 166.4 for 18 year olds. Those were up from the 1966-70 survey which showed 135.5 for 15 year olds, 142.6 for 16 year olds, and 149.8 for 17 year olds with no listing for 18 year olds. Kids are getting heavier. I know a lot of it is not good weight gain. But gain in height and strength training are also factors in these gains in size. I believe that the median 50% weight has shifted upward like the mean weight has. I don't know what the median 50% weight is exactly but I believe it is at least 10 pounds over our current mid weight of 140. Wrestling will be limiting opportunity for the majority of our high school students if wrestling does not start adding some weight classes for wrestlers over 160.