Private vs Public Education Advantages

In other threads, comments have been made which suggest that private high schools enjoy a decided advantage over their public school counter-parts in sports or athletics.

I believe that many reasons account for the athletic success of private schools, vis-a-vie public schools, particularly the larger, urban, public schools.

Many of those students attending private high schools, or suburban schools in or near the larger cities, grew up together, and had prior associations or had some familiarity with each other pre-dating commencement of high school. Odds were decent that their parents may have known each other, or were at least familiar with a family name. Many, if not most, of these kids shared a common religion, socio-economic, cultural and racial background. These things create a sense of community, pride in their community, which seem to reflect itself in a heightened sense of team spirit, which tends to foster a "one-for all/all-for-0ne" attitude/mentality, which does wonders for this intangible we call "team chemistry" - so critical and/or important, particularly in any team endeavor.

It would not surprise me that a greater percentage of students attending private high schools, were raised in an in-tact family environment, which presumably allowed the parents to become more active in all facets of their children's lives, to include athletics, which I would think bodes well for some semblance of athletic success.

I wold also surmise that students attending private schools, in all likelihood, had a greater percentage of parents, who likely were more financially able to pay monies to help hone their child's budding athletic skills and talents, allow them to purchase the expensive gear and equipment, participate on elite travel teams, participate in the various camps and clinics which serve to increase their skills and talents.

It's not than any one of these factors can not be overcome individually and/or collectively given the right mix of school administrators, teachers, coaches, parents and students. But I think it's probably a little more difficult today. Many of the sports dynasties of years past (i.e. Lawrence football, McPherson bassketball, come to mind) involved teams hailing from communities with just one high school, which communities shared at least some of the afore-referenced attributes of a private or suburban high schools today (i.e. sense of community, shared values, etc...) Hutchinson serves as a good recent example. Would Hutchinson's athletic prowess been as spectacular during the past few years if their available talent pool had been shared with a newly constructed school?

Today, many of these communities have experienced growth, requiring construction of new high schools, which have resulted in spreading the athletic wealth, as it were.

On the other hand, as we all know success at the high school level just may be attributed to a school just being lucky enough to have a good run of great kids and athletes.

The whole notion of recruiting at the high school level is an interesting topic. I suppose recruitment, in this context, takes place when a school allows a student to attend their school for a discounted fee (or fee waiver), and/or admission criteria is ignored and/or relaxed so as to allow that student to attend their school.

On the one hand, it's understandable why a parent of a public school student would want his/her/their child to attend a private high school: students are more scholastically challenged, creating a better learning environment as evidenced by superior test scores across the academic board; the private schools retain the ability to exclude children they do not want and to expel unruly, disruptive children who serve as distractions to learning; parents may believe that a private school setting will serve to lessen the odds that their child will be exposed to some of the more negative and harmful influences perceived to pervade public school education; colleges may look more favorably upon a student from a private school. There are any number of plausible reasons for a parent seeking this option. Why begrudge a parent for doing this?

On the other hand, there is a perception out there among many, that more than a few of thse so-called scholastic opportunities offered by private schools are reserved for the athleticalfly gifted student, with an eye toward unfairly enhancing the athletic prowess and superiority of the private school. Obviously this breeds a good deal of jealously, resentment and bitterness and cries of unfairness from their competitors.

Since I have no personal or inside knowledge of any recruitment, I'd be hard-presseed to make any accusations, but I'd have to admit that I harbor some suspicions that benevolence and high-minded ideals do not serve as the sole criteria in the selection process of who and who does not merit special consideration for admission. call me a cynic, but it would not surprise me that a little extra weight may be given to the steller athlete.

For what it's worth, I do not however believe that this notion of recruiting is so pervasive and prevalent in private education, so as to decidedly account for the overall athletic success of private high schools; nor do I choose to believe that requiring private schools to compete at the next higher level is fair to them.

I'll look forward to other's comments and perceptions.

I agree with you that there can definitely be advantages to the one school in a community, but in Hutchison's case that was there also before their football success started. I attribute a major part of the Hutchison football turnaround to their head coach Randy Dreiling. Here is what I posted about that in another topic as a reply to another poster recently. Read the article that I have cited and I think you have to agree that they have a great coach who has to be given a lot of credit for that program's incredible success in recent years.

If a school gets moved up a classification because they are able to recruit, would KSHSAA basically be saying that it is all right to recruit since we're moving you up any way? If a school is going to be punished for something they are not doing, then they might as well do it, overtly, and at least have the punishment justified.

Bill, unfortunately the only way I could forsee that private schools could ever get away from KSHSAA policies would be to actually go completely separate from their state championships series. I don't care personally about the recruiting restriction but it would be nice to be able to get away from some of their restrictions. We could allow our coaches to be involved in the kids club teams, coach their athletes in the off season during the school year so they could be coaching freestyle/greco now, loosen up travel and other restrictions.

Svo69, I can tell you that Saint James had two very talented wrestlers request visits with the school and had full intentions of transferring. Both were very good young men and have shown very good academic scores. Neither of these were allowed to transfer. I have no insight or knowledge why they were turned down, but I defintely know they were not on the Saint James wrestling roster this year. Those added points at state and St. James would have easily moved from an 8th place finish to no less than 4th. My point to that real life scenerio is to soften what some think is simply an "open door" policy at the private schools as long as you are a talented athlete. I know at SJA that is simply a myth. I have seen that proven wrong first hand.

When we visited the school, they never once mentioned Taylor's wrestling ability. They reviewed his transcripts, told us their academic expectations, and asked both Taylor and his mother and myself alot of questions about our academic outlook and goals. I am not completely sure that they knew about his athletic skills at all. I'm positive coach Medina knew, but not the admissions board.

You have to realize, I was not for this move before visiting the school. This was primarily a move my wife and son wanted to make. After visiting the school and the enrolment counselor I could feel myself changing positions. One of the very last things she said to us before leaving was that St. James had a very different view for their future than most schools. She said their goal was NOT to see how many students they could send on to college; but to see that every student that went on to college would also graduate from college and that was the most important number to them.

As an individual that completed 3 years of college and did not finish, that struck me very close to home. I thought it was outstanding that they considered themselves a college prep school who's goal was not just to get students in - but to get students graduated from college.

What helped us get Taylor into St. James as a Sophmore and not starting with the school immediately as a Freshman? I'm not completely sure, but I can guarantee it was NOT because he was a recruited athlete. I would like to credit it as my great "interview" skills, but more likely it may have had something to do with the fact he also attended Sacred Heart Catholic School in Colby in grades K-5.

Mr. Nowak:

I labor under no delusions that "coaching" plays a significant role in the success of any athletic program. There are innumerable examples of this - state wide. Your examples are exemplary and one would be hard-pressed to argue with you, in these regards.

But, at the high school level, I choose to believe that it is still the "Jimmie & Joe's" who carry the day (to a coveted state championship).

I hasten to add that the familiarity with an ultra-successful coach (and his "program") hastens the rise of that particular coaches program.

You may remember a football coach named Tom Young (a highly respected, coveted, football coach at Derby - I've never heard anybody utter an uncomplimentary remark about him or his coaching abilities, or the progarm he left behind at Derby).

In the last few years he went winless after leaving Derby, and he has now righted matters and recently competed for a state championship. Coach Young is the perfect example of your thesis. He will succeed!!!

It may well be that these steller athletes gravitate toward these proven programs (i.e. proven winners) or, then again, it could, then again, be the proverbial luck of the draw... (i.e. the local "pipeline" spillith over....)

or that these steller athletes did whatever they could do to be apart of this successful program - and bought into the coaches mind-set.

It's not unheard of, and it makes alot of practical sense.

I guess my point is that I agree whole-heartedly with you, coaching "can" make alot of difference...

What I would like to see, I have no time to generate the stats, is an accounting of the BIG 5 state championships. Football, Basketball, Baseball, Wrestling and Track. Then break it out by boys and girls. Is there still a private school disparity? I don't think you will find one in the boys big 5.

i have personal knowledge of recruiting. it happens, how much i don't know, but it happens. no i don't think they mention it too much in interviews.

HEADUP, Please give your definition of recruiting since you have so much "inside" knowledge, but no backbone for posting the specifics?

I hope the private sector has a good year every year. Without
private there is no public.

i know it happened at kapaun and miege (they were sanctioned in the late 80's). like i said i don't know how much it happens, but it DOES.

Headup, are you talking about public or private schools?

I am all for removing the private schools from KSHSAA if I can keep all of my taxes that go to public education and all of the rest of us as well. See what that will do to this arguement when public school administrators start losing their jobs.

Or to the contrary, when the Bishop closes all the parochial schools and the State has to fund the aditional students. Don't think that isn't a posibility as Bishop Carrol was going to do when they tried "jacking" with him with some severe resrictions several years back. I hate to see it come to that but can only take so much crap before you have to do what has to be done. Of course, it won't effect me or my grandchildren because they go to public schools. Basicly, if the Bishop did that, you would send them to public schools and then re-educate them at home at night if your children are going to a public school like most in the big cities.

Will,

Once again, I doubt you want to be bothered by the facts, but here you go:

Boys Sports

Baseball-- Current 2A and 4A Champs. Private schools have won both of these divisions for SEVEN years in a row. Since there are no 6A schools and there is no 1A baseball, private schools have won at least 50% of the divisions they compete in for the last seven years. Some years it's been 75%.

Football--Current 4A and 3A Champs along with 4A runner up (Hayden). STA and Carroll also were semifinalist teams in 5A. I'm not sure to what extent there are private schools in the 8 man divisions. I don't think any compete in 8man II. Regardless, it's safe to say that 2 champs is statistically more than to be expected.

Basketball--5A Champs, 3A Champs and 2A state champs. Also 2A runner up and 2A third place teams. State champs in 60% of the divisions they compete in.

Wrestling--You are not very good wrestlers. No current team champions. However, since 2005 there have been 5 private teams champions out of the 24 total team champions which is still 21%. Not as bad as the other major sports, but still more than you would expect from 8% of the schools.

Track--Apparently you guys are slow. You haven't won a team title since Carroll in 05. It's probably attributable to poor coaching. The public schools have really good coaches, they make the kids run really fast.

There you go. I think if you look at it objectively you must admit there is disparity. I'm not certain, but I would guess it is the same or worse in the girls division as I would replace wrestling with volleyball where private schools won 3 of 5 classifications.

The monopoly of public education is over.
Virtual or Online school opportunities are rising. I believe a student only has to attend one class at the brick location to be eligible for athletic participation.

That part of Cokely's taxes , and all the private schools tax payers, that go to public education is a drop in the bucket in comparison to the total bill for public education. To lose those taxes from the base would have minimal if no affect.

The money private schools and private school parents would have to pay to travel out of state for games/matches would, I think, equal or exceed what they are paying in school taxes. These increased cost, plus tuition and fees, can be expected to force many private school patrons to relook attending the private school versus attending their neighborhood public school. Cokely needs to seriously look at what he is willing to accept or propose.

He has not, nor do I think he will, address the facts, stats as he called them, of the current list of state champions. If he did address the issue, stats, he would have to defend them. Something very hard to do without without getting irrational.

Facts (stats). Just the facts (stats) mam!

Here are the stats I posted at 10:15 this AM on the forum "Somebody get Cokely a sedative". Perhaps Cokel has not yet looked at them. Same stats/ info posted by Windjammer at 11:08 Am today on this forum.

Copied:

Here again are some stats on state championships. I looked only at the KSHSAA listing of Current State Champions—softball and baseball stats are from last year 08/09—no 09/10 champs yet in these two sports. Did not include the country club sports---tennis, swimming, golf, or gymnastics. Did not include wrestling—a big sport-but primarily an individual sport—four or five wrestlers can win a team title- or a high team placing. Stats do not include 6A—no 6A private schools.

Football: two of four possible class champs (4a and 3A) 50%

Boys Basket ball: three of five champs(5A, 4A, 2A)—60%--plus a 3rd and 4th

Girls Basketball: one of five champs (3A)-20%--plus a 3rd and 4th

Baseball: two of four champs (4A and 21A) -–50%

Softball: zero of four champs-- two 3rds and one 4th

Volleyball: three of four champs (5A, 4A, 321A) –75% --plus three 2nds.

Boys Soccer: two of two champs (5A and 4321A) -100% --plus two 2nds

Girls Soccer: one of one champs (54321A) -100% --plus 2nd, 3rd, and 4th

I count 14 (48 percent) out of a possible 29 state championships in these major sports won by private schools . This is an extraordinary number when only 6 percent of the schools are private.

I want the stats for the last 20 years not just a snapshot. There are cycles. In 5A in the 90's a private school NEVER made it to the state finals in football and it the 80's only Kapaun made a significant impact and they were sanctioned for actually violating KSHSAA rules.

So you want to throw out 6A just because there are no 6A private schools right now even though they are a part of the study group, that is Kansas high school athletes. If the ridiculous proposal is put into place then there will be plenty when the shuffle begins so I believe their state championships have to be considered when figuring percentages.

When Lawrence high was the by far the biggest school in the state and won football EVERY year where were all of you whiners then????

I am ready to chalk this up to sore losers and the continued pussification of America by public school administrators. Speaking of public school administrators, our local school district, in light of the loss of hundreds of thousands of dollars in revenue has decided we should have TWO superintendants and a district wide AD to hold the hands of the two we have for the high schools and the additional middle school part time AD's. Some whiny woman over in Shawnee got elected to the schoolboard and got pissed bc her kids weren't getting to play so she went on a mission to clean out all of the head coaches and the AD. I think the principal was felled by her axe as well. I would like to have my tax dollars back and pay to play wherever I wanted Contrarian. At least I would have some say in how my dollars were getting spent!!! Heck, I don't think we need more than one AD let alone 6 in our little old school district!! The public schools are laden with an enormous burden of overhead caused by inefficiency. Why aren't we spending our energy making our system more effective from a cost perspective? Over 100 schools with a little more than 5,000 students in the top three grades??? That is ridiculous, way more so than private schools CURRENTLY winning more than Windy's determined fair share of championships.

HEADUP --- You are so full of $#!++ (baloney).

To Start with tuition for SMC is FREE(for tithing parishioners). So what exactly where they or are they waving? If said recruits aren't parishioners there is a small fee. But untill someone proves otherwise, I'm going to have to call your bluff and say you're lying about any pass on tuition for athletic talent.

Now I am going to challenge you to prove me wrong so I can publicly apologize to you. Give me your name, the coach-contact person-administrator that offered a "pass", and any other pertinent information so we can get to the truth. Trust me, I have the contacts to and am more than willing to follow up on this.

Also in your spare time you might check out SMC roster and see how many 2nd and 3rd generation students fill the lineup. Its tuff to call it recruiting when your parents and your parents parents all went to the same school.

**side note** With Colgans baseball teams over the last several yrs, it really wouldn't matter if they were 2A, 3A, or 4A. So how would it make the world better to beat down TMP's football team?

Duane Wuthnow
Salina, Kansas - Proud parent of two student athletes at SALINA SACRED HEART JUNIOR/SENIOR HIGH SCHOOL, home to 31 (thirty-one) state chapionship banners!!

**side note #2** You must be one heck of an athlete, because my kids are pretty d@%% good, and we still pay full tuition. (tuition at SHHS is far from free)

If you want 20 years history go look it up yourself, or are you too lazy. You wouldn't accept it if somebody did it for you. You would still be trying to obsecure and/or ignore the facts. When Lawrence was winning championships, STA and SJA did not exist. And what did it matter, it was a big public school playing other big big public schools. The review of last year's history of state championships is highly relevant and indicative of the issue over a longer time. You refuse to address the facts/stats. You just want to bitch, get nasty about taxes, public education, or what ever else you can complain about. If your son/daughter went to a public school and played a field game (BB, BB, FB, soccer, VB) you would be the loudest screamer of 'unfair, foul etc. And how do you count 6A private school championships if there are no 6A private schools. Your ranting and raving makes no sense and probably hurts the private schools. Why don't you call KSHSAA and tell them SJA wants out of the association, they are going to take their marbles and play somewhere else. If you do, you can probably count you private school friends on five fingers--with your attitude do you even have five friends now?

AS for cycles, I quess we are now in a 15 year cycle of private school prowess in sports. Its that old cycle theory- business cycle, earth warming cycle, or maybe its just a Schwinn (bi)cycle.

Interesting article related to topic.

Church-state issue clouds schools' conversion
Posted 4/10/2010 3:47 PM ET E-mail | Save | Print



By Carly Everson, Associated Press Writer
INDIANAPOLIS — Gloria Guillen wanted to keep her youngest child in the Catholic school he's grown up attending as long as possible. But she knew that eventually the financial strain of private-school tuition would force her to move him into public schools, just as she'd done with his older siblings.
But a plan to convert two Catholic elementary schools into taxpayer-supported charter schools this fall means Guillen's son Ivan, a fifth-grader at St. Anthony School in Indianapolis, will get to stay in his school without paying parochial school tuition.

Charter school authorizers and management officials say the city's approval Monday of a plan to convert St. Anthony's and St. Andrew & St. Rita Academy into charter schools marks the first time in the country that an archdiocese will run public charter schools.

The move will qualify the schools for nearly $1 million in state funding in the first year.

But concerns about the archdiocese's ability to maintain a separation of church and state have already prompted a national watchdog group to write Mayor Greg Ballard's office with its concerns.

Americans United for Separation of Church and State said it is concerned about the archdiocese's willingness to end all school prayer and remove religious icons, as well as how teachers who remain with the schools will be trained so they understand the constitutional duties of public school teachers.

"We are certainly going to be watching the situation as closely as we can and making noise about it when we see things going on that should not be," said Leona E. Balek, president of the group's Indiana chapter.

Archdiocese spokesman Greg Otolski said the schools will end religious education classes during the school day and will remove or cover religious icons.

At St. Anthony, that means removing the crucifixes and statues of saints found in every classroom and office, along with the Bibles sitting on display tables in hallways and saint statues in stairwells.

The board will have to get creative at St. Andrew & St. Rita, where two large limestone crosses are part of the outside wall of the building, said Connie Zittnan, director of the Mother Theodore Catholic Academies, which currently runs the city's six urban Catholic schools.

MTCA will continue to manage the day-to-day operations of the charter schools, which are generally free of many of the curriculum, budget and other regulations imposed on traditional public schools. But it will do the bookkeeping offsite so that there is no confusion between the finances of the private and public schools, which require different levels of accountability to the government, Zittnan said.

The two schools will be renamed this summer by parents. Each will have spots for 24 students per grade level and will accept applications during a two-week open admission period, Zittnan said. A lottery will be held if applications exceed available spots.

Current teachers will have to reapply for their jobs, but Otolski anticipates many will return after the transition.

Archdiocese officials say they began looking for ways to keep the schools open more than a year ago because of a growing budget deficit.

The archdiocese has long subsidized the schools because low-income families couldn't afford full tuition. Principal Cindy Greer says the average family income is $14,000 a year at St. Anthony's, where cramped quarters mean an all-purpose room in the basement serves as art, music and physical education space, as well as the cafeteria. A tiny clinic and offices are partitioned from the rest of the room by tall cabinets.

About 98 percent of students at St. Anthony qualify for free or reduced lunch, Otolski said. Some families could afford only $300 of the approximately $7,000 it costs to educate a child at inner-city schools each year.

Greer said most families are relieved that they'll pay only book rental fees once the school converts to a charter.

Even so, Otolski said the decision to apply for charter status was "bittersweet."

Ballard, who approved the charters, said the move is an "innovative" way to keep schools open so they can fill the needs of families in the struggling areas surrounding the schools.

"A good neighborhood school is always a good thing to have," Ballard said. "These schools have been around for a while and obviously have trouble making ends meet, but they still provide a valuable service for these neighborhoods."

Karega Rausch, director of Indianapolis' charter schools, said Indianapolis' approach is unique because ADI Charter Schools, Inc., a nonprofit founded by the archdiocese, will continue to run the schools. Catholic church leaders in New York, and Washington, D.C., have converted parish schools into charter schools, but those were operated by secular organizations, he said.

Greg Richmond, president of the National Association of charter School Authorizers, said more parochial schools are considering converting to charters.

"This is certainly becoming a much more frequent topic of discussion than it used to be," Richmond said. "If you'd asked me this question three years ago, I'd have said that it's come up a couple times in the last fifteen years across the country."

Officials say they're confident the schools can successfully separate church and state from their daily operations.

The schools will use a secular adaptation of the state-approved character education curriculum already used in the city's urban Catholic schools, according to the charter application. All staff will be trained in curriculum changes, as well as changes that come as the school becomes public, Zittnan said.

"Certainly, we're going to paying particular attention to this school given the nature of it, to ensure that no religious activities occur, but we have high levels of accountability in the process that the mayor has created that we will implement in these schools as well," said Christine Marson, assistant director of the mayor's charter school office.

Guillen, who plans to enroll Ivan in the sixth grade at the renamed St. Anthony's charter this fall, said children will still learn Catholic values so long as their parents are involved at the school and keep their children active in the church.

Still, Richmond thinks the schools will have to walk a careful line as they learn the rules for admissions, expulsions and accountability for funds for public schools.

"This switch goes far beyond saying, 'Well, we're no longer going to say prayers,"' Richmond said. "There is a whole set of obligations that public schools have to students and to the public that private schools do not have.

"I think that's a greater challenge than saying you're going to take the religion out."

Ditto to Duane! You tell them! I don't know the stats, but if you compared the entire number of students in the entire state of KS vs the entire number students in the very small number of private or parochial schools in the state of KS, there would be a huge numbers difference. Why is it that with all the economical problems in the state and for that matter our country, would the KS governing body focus in on this one and relatively small issue?

I did not write it. Just reading what is going on with the economy.

Audit outlines K-12 consolidation

BY TIM CARPENTER AND BARBARA HOLLINGSWORTH
Created February 8, 2010 at 2:00pm
Updated February 9, 2010 at 1:29am
A Kansas state audit released Monday outlined options for consolidating K-12 public schools in response to assertions by legislators who believe money could be saved by streamlining the education system.
The report to a joint House-Senate committee is certain to create controversy among educators and in communities desperate to keep schools open despite dwindling enrollments.
"There are an infinite number of ways school districts can consolidate," said Dan Bryan, of the Legislative Division of Post Audit.
Auditors presented two scenarios for merging districts based on hypothetical standards of enrollment and geography that would undergo rigorous debate by lawmakers before placed into law.
Under scenario No. 1, districts would be merged if not offering all 12 grades and had at least 400 students or served an area of no more than 200 miles. Thirty-two Kansas districts failed to meet that criteria, but logical mergers with neighboring districts would reduce the statewide number from 293 to 266.
The potential cost savings would be about $18 million and would result in closure of 50 school buildings and reduction of 230 teachers and administrators.
Under the second scenario, the auditors examined what would result from attempts to consolidate any school district with less than 1,600 students. In all, the state has 239 districts below that benchmark. Implementation of this scheme would reduce the number of districts to 152.
The savings would be $138 million and would trigger closure of 304 schools and elimination of 1,532 teaching and administrative jobs.
Rep. Ann Mah, D-Topeka, questioned if more needs to be done to encourage the smallest districts to consolidate. Rather than just offering incentives, she said, some might need to face losing the extra funding they receive as low-enrollment districts. She said she understands the challenges in consolidating, but said students can suffer when schools have to drop programs because of low enrollment.
"They're holding onto their communities and they're holding onto their history and in a lot of cases the kids' education is suffering as a result," she said.
Work of the audit committee isn't binding on the Legislature, but the research is often used to shape reform legislation.
Auditors recommended the Legislature consider encouraging voluntary consolidation by limiting or eliminating a statute allowing districts to enter into contracts with other districts to share entire grades.
For example, the Montezuma and Copeland school districts have had a cooperative agreement since 1992. Montezuma runs the high school, Copeland operates the middle school and both districts have an elementary school. Although they have operationally merged into a larger district, they receive an extra $432,000 each year, or $1,300 per student, in special low-enrollment funding from the state. The districts would lose that money upon merger.
Auditors also recommended the Legislature consider options for strengthening incentives for districts to voluntarily consolidate. Potential incentives could include temporary reduction in mandatory property tax mill levies and offers of extra state funding to build or modify school buildings to accommodate mergers.
On that point, two consolidations are on the agenda of the next meeting of the Kansas Board of Education. The Lorraine and Claflin districts and the Pawnee Heights and Hanston districts are requesting permission from the state board to put merger proposals to a public vote. These consolidations would take place July 1, if voters agree.
These districts, under current law, could benefit financially from a merger. They would be allowed to keep the current level of state aid for several years, a relief to each at a time when the state is slashing appropriations.
Declining enrollment is the second factor pushing schools to consolidate, said Mark Tallman, a lobbyist for the Kansas Association of School Boards.
"It's really a combination of the two," he said.
After leading two Doniphan County school districts through consolidation, Rex Bollinger said it is an emotional process. The Doniphan West Unified School District 111 superintendent said it isn't a decision that should be made from Topeka.

Closer to the topic heading.

Comparison of Private and Public Schools
A Look at the Differences and Similarities
By Robert Kennedy, About.com Guide
It's a question which parents ask almost as much as "Which is the best school?" That question is "How do private and public schools compare?" Coupled with that question, parents also want to know more about the differences and similarities between private and public schools. Let's take a look.
What's Being Taught
Differences: Public schools must adhere to state standards regarding what can be taught and how it is presented. Certain subjects such as religion and sexual practices are taboo. Rulings in many court cases over the years have determined the scope and limits of what can be taught and how it is presented in public school.
By contrast a private school can teach whatever it likes and present it in any way it chooses. That's because parents choose to send their children to a specific school which has a program and educational philosophy with which they are comfortable.
Similarities: As a rule both public and private high schools require a certain number of credits in core subjects such as English, mathematics and science in order to graduate.
Admission Standards
Differences: Public schools must accept all students within their jurisdiction with few exceptions. Behavior is one of those exceptions, really bad behavior which must be well-documented over time.
A private school, on the other hand, accepts any student it wishes to according to its academic and other standards. It is not required to give a reason why it has refused to admit anyone. Its decision is final.
Similarities: Both private and public schools use some kind of testing and review transcripts to determine the grade level for new students.
Accountability
Differences: Public schools must comply with a host of federal, state and local laws and regulations including No Child Left Behind, Title I, etc. The number of regulations with which a public school must comply is vast. In addition public schools must also comply with all the state and local building, fire and safety codes just as the private schools must.
Private schools must observe federal, state and local laws such as annual reports to the IRS, maintenance of state-required attendance, curriculum and safety records and reports, compliance with local building, fire and sanitation codes.
Similarities: There is plenty of regulation, inspection and review of the operations of both private and public schools.
Accreditation
Similarities: Accreditation is generally required for public schools in most states. While accreditation for private schools is optional, most college prep schools seek and maintain accreditation from the major accrediting organizations. The process of peer review is a good thing for both private and public schools.
Graduation Rates
Differences: The rate of public school students entering college after graduation has fluctuated between 62-67% in recent years. A variety of factors come into play which result in that relatively low matriculation rate. The drop out rate in public schools tends to have a negative effect on matriculation data.
In private schools the matriculation rate is typically in the 90-95% range. Minority students who attend a private high school are more likely to attend college than minority students who attend public school according to NCES data. The reason why most private high schools do well in this area is that they are generally selective. They will only accept students who can do the work.
Cost
Differences: Funding differs greatly between private and public schools. Public schools are not allowed to charge any tuition fees in most jurisdictions at the elementary level. You will encounter modest fees in high schools. Public schools are funded largely by local property taxes, though many districts also receive funding from state and federal sources.
Private schools charge for every aspect of their programs. Fees are determined by market forces. Private school tuition averages about $6,600 per student according to 2007 NCES data. Private schools take no public funding. As a result they must operate with balanced budgets.
Discipline
Differences: Discipline is handled differently in private schools vs pubic schools. Discipline in public schools is somewhat complicated because students are governed by due process and constitutional rights. This has the practical effect of making it difficult to discipline students for minor and major infractions of the school's code of conduct.
Private school students are governed by the contract which they and their parents sign with the school. It clearly spells out consequences for what the school considers unacceptable behavior.
Safety
Differences: Violence in public schools is a top priority for administrators and teachers. The highly-publicized shootings and other acts of violence which have taken place in public schools have resulted in the application of stringent rules and security measures such as metal detectors to help create and maintain a safe learning environment.
Private schools are generally safe places. Access to campuses and buildings is carefully monitored and controlled. Because schools usually have fewer students than a public school, it is easier to supervise the school population.
Similarities: Both private and public school administrators have your child's safety on top of their list of priorities.
Teacher Certification
Differences: There are some slight differences between private and public schools. For example, public school teachers must be certified by the state in which they are teaching. Certification is granted once statutory requirements such as education courses and teaching practice are met. The certificate is valid for a set number of years and must be renewed.
In most states private school teachers can teach without a teaching certificate. Most private schools prefer teachers to become certified as a condition of employment. Private schools tend to hire teachers with a bachelor's or masters degree in their subject.

Duane: I'll give 100 to 1 odds this punk won't be calling to give names ect. Thanks for calling him out on it though.

i just sent duane a pm with names and the stories i know. like i said, i don't know how much it happens, but i believe it does.

believe what you want, truth is kapaun and miege were sanctioned for it in the 80's, so it happens.

no need for the apology, i've been told worse before. believe what you want.

Too lazy. That is so laughable! STA was St. Josephs. I do believe they existed back then. My point was that they had an enormous enrollment but no one called for KSHSAA to downsize them or kick them out. Lawrence High that is. Honestly, I could care less from a sports perspective what they decide. I am just not happy about my tax dollars being wasted without adequate representation. You should carry on being a legend in your own mind.

It is not the Kansas State Goverment focusing on anything. it is a number of the member schools of the KSHSAA who have raised the issue of private school athletic successes. Get smart about the issue before you make a comment!!

agreed here, i don't think it matter's just stating my point of view, about the "recritment" of student/athletes. honestly it makes NO DIFFERENCE TO ME. tax dollars/ wins/losses or other wise.

I have some vague familiarity with catholic schools in the Wichita and/or Sedgwick county area (with none elsewhere), having observed them periodically compete in a variety of athletic events, over several decades, within the Wichita City League.

As well, I am a product of a catholic education (grade school/ middle school and high school - all boys high school)in the city of Wichita. For reasons unique and personal to my family, my sons did not attend catholic schools.

I have long took note of the fact that our local catholic high schools (i.e. Bishop Carroll and Kapaun/Mt Carmel, in the main, could/would compete favorably with our local public schools - and we've had some steller public high school teams, in every sports endeavor.

For instance, in football, I would ordinarily casually glance at each sideline and utter comments that B.C./Kapaun had virtually no chance, as the sheer size and numbers tended to favor the public schools. As well, often (or occasionally) the public school would have steller, D-1 prospects on their teams.

As often as not, the catholic schools would do remarkedly well.

Invariably, I was impressed with the degree of coaching, the collective intelligence and/or discipline and the obvious toughness of the parochial school teams, and the fact that this intangible called "team chemistry" tended to decidedly favor the parochial school. Now, by "team chemistry", I refer to a perceived attitude of "one for all/all for one"...everyone rooting for each other.

As often than not, I did not ordinarily observe the same attitude in he public school teams; of course when things were going good and they were winning, things were upbeat and positive, but at the first sign of adversity, I sensed a palpable change in the collective attitude of the public school teams - a willingness, if you will, to place blame, point fingers, and criticize. This was often reflected by the "star" athletes distancing themselves from their coaches and teammates, and paying little attention to the game. Reduced to it's essence, the perceived attitude was: "what are you doing - why did you do that; instead of: what do we got to do to get this thing righted.

Although I have no facts to support my contentions, I'd nonetheless hazzard a guess that the parochial school rosters were substantially populated by students who were a product of parochial schools - not illegally recruited athletes. (now, I could be wrong, as I have no personal/inside information - but I am aware that the "studs" on most of these rosters, were largely products of a catholic elementary education!

Now, I don't pretend to have "Pollyanna" tatood on my forehead,and I labor under no delusion that the possibility exists that recruiting (of steller athletes) does, in fact, exist. But, I choose to believe that this has not made a significant difference in the ultimate outcome of these athletic contests throughout the years - at least in the Wichita City League.

In the Wichita area, we now have several other private schools which are competing for athletes (i.e. Wichita Collegiate, Wichita Independence, and Wichita Trinity) (if I've omitted some one, please forgive me)

Of course the overwhelming athletic success of Wichita Collegiate invites alot of suspiscion: How or why did the likes of DeAngelo Evans, Maurce Evans, Chris Harper - for a brief interlude, anyway (each extra-ordinary athletics, and several others) just happen to man (or woman) their athletic rosters?

I happen to think that this is a fair question - one that hints at the very essence of what this thread is about!

There may well be a perfectly satisfactory answer - but I'd hazzard a guess that Colegiate's athletic competitors would be hard-pressed to accept the notion that the admission was a product of any high-minded ideal, to solicit a deserving,minority student to avail himself of the scholastic opportunities and/or rigors associated with their school. I could be wrong. Of course, I've never heard the schools response.

In the final analysis, when an inner city student, a steller athlete, is selected to attend your private school, with no prior history of association with your school, don't act all too surprised when your public school,athletic competitors, feel that you are taking unfair advantage of them, and gaining a very unfair, unethical, athletic leg up... It's how the athletic world turns, in my humble opinion.

Mr. Moeder (whose son attends St. James Academy) comments that his experience with entrance criteria at St. James Academy would refute this notion, and I certainly would not (and emphatically, do not, question his sincerity, nor integrity (I simply take him at his word!); but then we have the comments of other Posters who claim to have been induced to attend private schools for their obvious athletic prowress - where rules were bent.

I find this controversy quite interesting, and have debated it within my circle of friends for decades. I still do not know the answer, nor who is right.

"About 98 percent of students at St. Anthony qualify for free or reduced lunch, Otolski said. Some families could afford only $300 of the approximately $7,000 it costs to educate a child at inner-city schools each year."

Interesting article, but the part that blew me away was the above statement: Funny that it takes $12-13,000 per student at USD 259-Wichita schools. Can you say TOP HEAVY?

I got one word for you anti private school people:

JEALOUSY

This is coming from someone that did not attend private schools, and neither do my children.

Cokely, go un-elect your school board. Don't just talk about bad thing, do something about it other than wringing your hands and gnashing your teeth. Circulate a flyer, hold a public meeting, start a petition. I doubt the DeSoto school board and administrators read this forum.

And as I told Doug 749--there is a Tea Party tonight at Community America Ball Park in KCKS.

And to follow up on a point made several times, but ignored by some, if there were to be coaching changes at our school, I would very much consider following that coach/coaches, or consider sending my kids to a private school that had coaches that were more appealing to the way I think a coach should operate his program. Kids and parents are recruited every day by the actions and success of a coaching staff, or the actions and success of a school's academics. And why is it ok for someone that lives in the wichita school district to choose which one of the 6 or 7 High Schools, he or she wants to attend? Using your theory, each of these high schools should have boundaries to draw from. Are KC school districts the same?

I saw a very refreshing sign last night, which bodes well for the public school that my kids attend: The teacher that was working the gate at the softball game was reading a book by Glenn Beck. I will give her a copy of the Fair Tax Book by Neal Boortz next time I see her.

Taxes, taxes, taxes. If everyone in this or any other so called developed country got to chose only what they wanted their tax $$$s spent for, this would be a very austre country and world. I would probaly start looking for a country with a few more amenities: the Congo, Nambia, Uzbeckstan, El Salvador, somewhere along that line. If you don't like paying taxes, remember the Viet Nam era saying: America, love it or leave it. You can always go to any of a number of Central and South American predominant Catholic Countries. Probably will not have any high school sports though. Do they even have high schools?

The people proposing the KSHSAA split/proposals do read these forums. As a matter of fact I received an e-mail back from one of the proposers that said he was done discussing this topic with me and it was his final e-mail response to my questions about some "survey" that had no data. The survey that was not done by KSHSAA. I asked Joanna Chadwick from the Wichita Eagle for a copy of the "survey" - no survey. I asked a couple of people in the article below for a copy of the survey and who conducted the survey and what were the questions asked in the survey - still no survey or report or results. The only results were one sided pieces of data that were hand picked to make the proposal meet the needs of the proposers. I did get a copy of the report the KSHSAA did. You can read that report off of the KSHSAA web site - That report appeared on the web site shortly after this discussion began on the USA Wrestling web site and right after they mailed me a hard copy that I requested.

Private school teams may face tougher competition

BY JOANNA CHADWICK
The Wichita Eagle
A survey of Kansas high school administrators by the state's governing body for high school sports found that many think private schools have an unfair advantage over public schools.

So the Kansas State High School Activities Association's board of directors will consider two proposals next month that would either make private schools compete by themselves in postseason play or make them compete at a higher enrollment level.

No immediate changes are likely, but proponents of the changes say the discussion is important. Either change would radically alter the structure of the KSHSAA's current classification system.

"This would be one of the most significant deviations from the way we've done business in the past," said Bill Faflick, athletic director for the City League, which is the city's seven public high schools that have athletics plus parochial schools Bishop Carroll and Kapaun Mount Carmel.

Of the two proposals, the one seemingly more popular would move private schools up one classification. Carroll, with 819 students in grades 10-12 this year, and Kapaun, with 667, would move from Class 5A to 6A, where the smallest school this year has 1,066 students.

A private school such as Wichita Trinity Academy, a small Class 4A school, would move up to 5A.

"We have only about 300 students, and now we're competing against schools that have 900?" said Trinity headmaster/principal Matt Brewer. "We can't play football against Hutchinson. We'd be putting kids at risk."

Clay Center principal Mike Adams, a board of directors member who helped draft the proposal, said it would equalize schools, especially because private schools aren't limited to the same boundaries as public schools.

"We have to take the kids that walk through our doors," Adams said.

In Classes 4A, 3A and 2A, the public schools are rural while the private schools come from urban areas. Trinity is part of the Central Plains League with the Independent School and eight rural schools.

The second proposal is more dramatic with seemingly less chance of passing. It puts the state's 26 private schools into their own playoff structure in all sports. It also divides Class 4A into two divisions, essentially creating 11 postseason classes for football and eight for all other sports.

States such as Texas and Tennessee have separate public and private state championships, but each has around 300 private schools.

"I think it would be unfair to put the 26 schools together and have us supposedly play Berean Academy," Carroll president Tish Nielsen said. Berean Academy, in Elbing, is a 2A school with 103 students in its three upper grades.

But many public schools don't think it's fair to compete against private schools.

"I think it's become more of an issue in the past 10 years," said Campus principal Myron Regier, who is on the KSHSAA board of directors.

Possible explanations include increased emphasis on high school athletics, earning college scholarships and winning state championships.

Private schools, which make up 7 percent of the association's member schools, are successful at tournament time. In the current school year, Wichita Collegiate has won Class 3A titles in football, volleyball, girls tennis and boys basketball.

At the Class 5A girls basketball tournament, three of the final four teams were private schools, and the boys 5A title was won by Bishop Miege, in Roeland Park.

Private schools counter that plenty of public schools have similar traditions — Heights became the first school in the state's largest classification to play for a title in football and boys and girls basketball, and Hutchinson has won six straight football titles.

"Of everything completed so far (this school year), privates have won almost 32 percent of all championships, and many public schools feel that private schools have an advantage," Clay Center's Adams said.

2006 comparison

In 2006, the KSHSAA created a committee that studied the private-public issue. The main finding was that private schools "earn a disproportionate percentage of postseason final eight, final four and championship game opportunities when compared to public schools."

"A lot of people thought we stopped short —'You need to go ahead and do something about it,' " KSHSAA executive director Gary Musselman said.

Yet the focus on state championships concerns some.

"If that's how programs are being evaluated, they're missing the mark," Faflick said. "(Sports is) for connecting kids to school, teaching life lessons, teaching teamwork, discipline. All are evident if they win or lose at the end of the year."

Gardner-Edgerton principal Tim Brady, part of the proposal to split private schools from championships, is frustrated watching private schools dominate. He links that dominance to recruiting.

Allegations of recruiting and private schools giving athletic scholarships to entice top athletes often crop up. But Musselman said he has found no evidence of recruiting in his 22 years on the job.

Carroll's Nielsen is distressed at the questions of recruiting.

"I don't want them to question our integrity," she said. "I want them to know we're following the rules and guidelines."

Long road to change

It is doubtful that April's board of directors meeting will be more than a discussion. If the board of directors votes to agree to either of the proposals — or comes up with its own proposal — there are still hurdles.

A majority of the board would have to vote to put it on the agenda for its next meeting, in September, and a majority of all schools in all classes must approve it.

Discussion is fine with DeSoto principal David Morford, who was part of the proposal for splitting public and private championships.

"It's getting talked about. That's our goal,'' he said.

"We don't necessarily have the right answer, but we want to have the dialogue with everybody to have a solution that's workable to everybody."

http://www.kansas.com/2010/03/26/1242039/private-school-teams-may-face.html
_________________________
Shhhhhhh I'm in "hidding"!

I think it would be an interesting case study to find out why parents are willing to spend the thousands of extra dollars every year to send their children to a private school. I don't know the percentages, but I bet only 20-25% of the private school students participate in sports. As a rhetorical question, why would they spend all that money just for the same education they can get at a public school? It's not just the extra religion class. Every church offers Sunday school and religious training for all children for far less than the cost of attending the catholic grade and high schools. I believe there is an intangible "more" they seek.

As far as recruiting for sports, I think the sports recruit for themselves by being great. Parents of athletes of all abilities may be trying to get the best coaching for their kids. Don't you think there may be some parents that are sending their kids to Goddard and Derby to wrestle instead of the private schools? How about Hutch in football? I'm sure the private schools would love to have some of those kids.

Another rhetorical question. In the 70's through mid 80's how many great football players from Kansas accepted "walk on" status and being an "average" player at Missouri, Nebraska, Oklahoma and Texas instead of taking a scholarship to KU or K-State and being the star? Why would they pay to go to those other schools when they could have gone locally for free? Maybe they felt that to reach their full potential and excel, they needed to be in the best programs and coached by the best coaches. When KU and K-State got those coaches, they kept a lot more local talent.

I can't blame a parent for wanting what they feel is best for their children, whether that is going to private school or forgoing private school to attend a great public school. I really doubt that the private school goes out to recruit athletes, but if a parent makes an inquiry, I'm sure the school tells them what they have to offer.

I would be curious to know how many students at the private schools get some financial aid that don't play sports at all. My bet is there are far more non-athletes than athletes getting aid.

A government big enough to give you everything you want, is also powerful enough to take everything you have.

Apparently you see no problem with the way out government spends OUR tax dollars. Which of course speaks volumes about your lack of a sense of reality.

EVERYONE hates paying taxes, it's just that: 1- the burden falls on too few of us and 2- the people that pay them do not like the way they are spent, which is typically using our tax money to pay for programs that will buy the politicians votes. And this goes for Republicans and Democrats.......

I believe taxes should always be as low as they can be--along as they provide the essentials we need. In this country we do not have the choices to say exactly how our taxes are spent. I would probably cut somethings you think are essential, and you would cut somethings I think are essential. So, we are not arguing about taxes, we are arguing about essentials. Tell me the things you want to support and what you want to cut, I will give you my lists. Taxes are an agreement between lots of people, groups, etc., for lots of different things, programs, etc. No one gets it only their way.

"a rhetorical question, why would they spend all that money just for the same education they can get at a public school? It's not just the extra religion class. Every church offers Sunday school and religious training for all children for far less than the cost of attending the catholic grade and high schools. I believe there is an intangible "more" they seek."

Let me answer your question...I have put 3 boys through Catholic grade school, 2 through Aquinas and my youngest will be a freshman there next year. You obviously have no idea what happens at Catholic schools...the kids are immersed in the Faith. Prayer every morning, Mass at least once a week. Other Sacraments offered on a regular basis. 4 years of theology is required (sorry can't get that in CCD class). Our kids are free to celebrate CHRISTMAS and EASTER (not winter break). Mission trips, service hours (required) and opportunities to live the Faith are offered. This on top of very challenging academic standards (which are recognized by colleges).

My middle son was fortunate to be at Aquinas at a time when two State championships were won in wrestling. We can only be so lucky if that happens at least once when my youngest is there...but wrestling or sports in general is not the reason we are there...we are there because of the above mentioned opportunities in Faith and academics.

Every family has choices (for now) ... and our choice was to educate our kids in Catholic schools. This has come at a great sacrifice, we live in the same small house, drive cars until they basically die (last van had about 180,000 miles before we got something new), don't go on vacation except for sports and trust me when that monthly payment to Aquinas starts up again in June we will feel it.

From my perspective it is worth every penny.

Doug,

In Olathe public schools you are allowed to choose which high school you attend, I'm not sure of the rules if you want to transfer to a different high school after you started.

BY JOANNA CHADWICK
The Wichita Eagle
A survey of Kansas high school administrators by the state's governing body for high school sports found that many think private schools have an unfair advantage over public schools.

Note to Contrarian: I did get my facts straight! I said "KS governing body."

Contrarian, as I have stated previously, the MULTIPLIER is a form of discrimination which is mainly focused on targeting private and parochial schools. It doesn't work because I know from personal experience. It kills the competitiveness of SMALL schools and HAS NO EFFECT on big ones. I have had two sons competing in wrestling in two different Catholic schools in both MO and KS within the last three years. Both are elite athletes and NEITHER were recruited by a high school. My eldest faced unrealistic and unfair competition, especially noticeable in soccer, due to the MO multiplier. Why is it so important to you to "level the playing field" by utilizing the multiplier? Lansing is in the KC Metro, you have choices. Bishop Ward is within driving distance. Oh that's right, they're only noted to be a powerhouse in baseball and your a wrestling Dad. Let's punish Bishop Ward, a very small, urban school that does a lot of great things in KCKS, in all the other sports just because you think its unfair. That makes sense. Need I go on and belabor this subject about the Thomas More Prep like schools that would suffer. To punish a SMALL number of private schools to, in your eyes, HELP the humongous number of public schools is a proven bad idea that is why so few other states do it.

Coachise: A good question! Why would parents pay all that money for the same education! The number one thing you need to have a great learning enviroment is discipline! The Wichita Catholic schools I drive by all wear the same uniforms. (usually white shirt or blouse and tan slacks or skirts). No pressure to outdress or compete. The public schools west of Wichita that my children and grandchildren went and go to voted to have uniforms. They are emulating success of the privates. They even have a uniform and book garage sale prior to school and also use the large purchasing power to buy at a lessor price for the ones that want new ones. Orders are taken at the garage sale for new items. Next, the teachers are not NEA union members so the private schools can quickly get rid of the "duds" (teachers). It is a pleasure to visit the private schools and see first hand the polite students and play them in sports. Kind remarks and gracious winners and losers is the standard practice for both teams, private or our public. I cherish the letters our public school, Andale, gets from teams we have both beaten or got beat by, about the great sportsmanship during the game and the teams getting together and intermingaling over a meal afterwords. Topeka Hayden comes to mind first. They are a class act! It would be sad if we couldn't play them again due to reclassification. Thanks, Matt

Mom,
I apologize. My question was asked with a bit of sarcasm directed at those who think the reason we send our children to Catholic schools is for the sports programs. If my kids didn't play sports at all, I would still spend the money to send them to the Catholic schools for the very reasons you state and more. Most of us sending our children to private school sacrifice cars, vacations, nicer homes, eating out and new clothes for this opportunity. I don't whine about the expense or expect anyone to care. It is the choice we make. Other people don't want to spend their money that way. That's up to them. But they shouldn't be complaining because I did. I've been through the parking lot on a school day at Olathe East. I have never owned as nice of cars as I see 16 year olds getting for their first car. And there aren't that many nice cars in the lot at STA or SJA. Again, I don't begrudge them. Everyone makes choices. We are not rich people trying to buy a state champion. We are simply trying to give our kids the things they really need in life , like an education centered in faith, so they can succeed in life.

And you are right. It is and was worth every penny.

Contrarian,

Do you think SJA recruited Ryne?? Do you think we were attracted to their stellar wrestling program that had less than 10 kids out the year before Ryne enrolled? I produced some facts and I don't think the number of state championships won by private schools is out of line over the past 30 years. I put up so now you can shut up.

Do stand alone communities have an advantage with just 1 high school? I think it is great going into those communities and watching their support and traditions, and competing against
that pride and determination to be the best they can be.
You can see the hundreds of volunteers sporting the school colors with some neat quote.

KC Sportsmom. What does KSHSAA, the governing body of Kasnas school sports, have to do with taxes--or with governing Kansas as a State. No connection. You are mixing apples and oranges. Again, go get smart on a subject before commenting on it. And Bishop ward, I have empathy for them. If there were to be exceptions--I surely agree they should qualify. In an inner city with a growing Hispanic population, Ward with a large Hispanic enrollment, serves a special need. With a multiplier I doubt Ward would be bumped a class--to small to start with. And yes I live in Lansing. What choices do I have that you are refering to. I am totally satisfied with where I live and with my public HS. And state championships at Lansing, maybe one in volleyball. Lansing wrestling--up and down--up the last couple of years-will be down for a few years when these kids graduate. Not all public schools are bad and need shutting down as many of you seem to advocate--in fact the vast majority of public are doing very well at what they are supposed to do. If you and Cokely had your way you would lump Shawnee Mission and Blue Valley schools in with the very hard core inner city schools. I am not jealous of private or parochial schools, but sometimes your elitist attitudes stick in the craw. And I am not just a wrestling dad. My older son played football and my youngest played soccer and wrestled. I have coached youth T ball, baseball, football, basketball, and soccer In soccer I sponsored (equipped and suited-free to several financially challanged players) managed and coached a successful competitive level team--a team that sent four players to William Jewel College in Liberty, and another four players to Kansas Community Colleges to play soccer.

Cokely. He want to cite sports history back to 1980---way before many of today's private schools existed (new comer KC area schools I know of: STA, SJA, KCC, Maranatha Academy)(do not know when out of area private schools were established--the only big private school with a sports history seems to be KMC). THe big parochial school in KC area prior to 1990 was Miege---and they have a sports history of extraordinay success. A couple of people have mentioned that both Miege and KMC were sanctioned by the KSHSAA in the 80s--what was that all about. By using sports history between 1980 and 1995--STA came in I think in about 1990 and started their sports run the best I can determine in 1992--Cokely can cite low private school state championships--a time when there were not very many private schools. Why not shorten the time period and include soccer and volleyball--sports dominated by private schools since they became KSHSAA sanctioned sports.

Did SJA recruit Ryne (Cokely). The thought never entered my mind. However, there has been a lot of speculation about Moeder. I accept Mr. Moeder's post without question. However, I have thought how did Miege got the two Releford all staters. Understand they were in public schools in KCMO. Two tuitions at Miege must be a bank account buster. Were they Catholic and offered financial assistance "based on need". If not Catholic and given financial assistance, how many deserving Catholic kids were denied financial assistance. Way too many dark spots.

Still looking for the spel chker.

Contrarian - What does KSHSAA, the governing body of Kasnas school sports, have to do with taxes--or with governing Kansas as a State.

None of my business - but KSHSAA is funded by members - many many members are public schools and their schools administrators, athletic directors, teachers, coaches, are board members. The board members make legislative recommendations on changing Kansas laws pertaining to school athletics and other activities. All of the activities cost money which are funded by Kansas residents as well as KSHSAA which is predominantly funded indirectly by Kansas residents.

Now comparing apples and oranges. The NCAA funded by public and private schools and big business. The KSHSAA is most likely funded by property taxes, sales taxes and income taxes - indirectly of course by member fees. You have to go way back to see the origninal intent of the NCAA - they have strayed a little
away from their original mission. Originally they were for all sports and student athletes - now they lean a lot more towards the revenue sports only.

I was trying to find out budgeting information and came acrossed this article.

KSHSAA holds up in audit

Web Link to article:
http://cjonline.com/sports/2009-07-11/kshsaa_holds_up_in_audit
Audit findings often don’t support concerns prompting study

BY RICK DEAN
Created July 11, 2009 at 7:06pm
Updated July 12, 2009 at 12:47am
Let’s put this into a perspective most taxpayers might understand.
Imagine you are facing an IRS audit. You are an honest person, yet you haven’t done everything perfectly. You await the government auditor with the anticipation common to root canals.
Anxious months later, you get his report. He disallows a single deduction; you owe a tax bill of $50. You aren’t overjoyed. Yet somehow you feel like celebrating.
That is a sense of what the Kansas State High School Activities Association, the governing body of the state’s athletic and scholastic activities programs, felt after its first appearance before the Legislative Division of Post Audit — the performance watchdog of Kansas government.
Fourteen months after a legislative committee authorized an audit in April 2008, the KSHSAA learned in the summary of the auditors’ June 25 report that “although the majority of (Association) members appear to be satisfied with most aspects of rules and regulations, a significant number are unhappy with some aspects.”
The resulting sound of silence was broken only by a quiet sigh of relief from the KSHSAA headquarters in west Topeka. Was that it? Is that the worst you found?
Gary Musselman, a KSHSAA executive for 22 years and its executive director for the past 13, was hardly floored to learn that well-intentioned people are uphappy with some aspects of Association policy.
When, after all, was anyone ever completely happy with every policy implemented by a statewide body representing 779 junior and senior high schools from Leavenworth to Liberal, St. Francis to St. Paul, and which governs activities as diverse as football and forensics, baseball and band?
“When your responsibility is to govern, there will always be concerns about, ‘Are you being fair? How do you make rules?’ ” Musselman said. “And in a state as diverse as Kansas, it’s hard to get everyone feeling the same about anything.”
Moreover, the data state auditors interpreted as “significant” dissatisfaction with Association policy read like poetry to an administrator more accustomed to having angry coaches and parents question his motivation, his judgment. Occasionally, even his parentage.
State auditors, for example, found it significant that one out of five coaches surveyed said the Association was “unresponsive” to the concerns of Kansas high school athletes.
Musselman found it more significant that 67 percent of coaches — long the most outspoken of KSHSAA critics — called the Association “responsive” to those concerns.
“I find the report interesting in that when it says 60 percent are in support and 40 percent have concerns, the 40 percent are what we talk about,” he said.
“I guess I should have spoken to that because I’ve had school superintendents say they read the audit and that (the Association) did a super job, but they were concerned about the somewhat negative stance.”
The 40 percent figure that generated headlines was the percentage of surveyed coaches who, according to the auditors, believed Kansas high school athletes “didn’t have enough opportunities to develop their athletic skills.” It is an age-old lament from coaches who see Association rules limiting games and practice opportunities as hindering the development of their players.
But their concern was blunted some by the auditors survey that ranked Kansas No. 2 among the seven Big 12 states in per capita production of Big 12 athletes in football and men’s and women’s basketball, the three showcase sports surveyed.
Texas, needless to say, produces more Big 12 football and basketball players than the six other states combined. But when population is factored in, Kansas produces five athletes per 100,000 residents, trailing only Nebraska.
“It’s a case where reality is not always in sync with perception,” Musselman said.
“There’s a perception elsewhere that we’re a bunch of small, backwater schools. Well, Jordy Nelson (a Kansas State All-American from tiny Riley County now in the NFL) did all right. So did Jackie Stiles (who made it to the WNBA from Claflin). You can go up and down a list (of small-school Kansas success stories).”
Numbers don’t lie
The effect of Association rules on the development of Kansas athletes was one of three major concerns legislators — responding to personal or constituent complaints — told the auditors to consider.
Others involved what legislators called a “cumbersome” governing structure that made the Association unresponsive to the wants of member schools; and revenue-sharing policies that, in the words of the pre-audit scope statement, “cause schools to lose money when they host (Association-sanctioned) postseason events.”
Again, figures compiled by the auditors in a survey of some 3,100 coaches, administrators, superintendents and school board presidents failed to support those contentions.
The auditors’ survey found only one in four respondents from the Association’s governing boards thought the board was too large. Only one in three thought it didn’t adequately represent schools of all sizes. Some survey respondents also said small schools (classes 1 through 3A) were under-represented.
In breaking down the Association’s 78-member Board of Directors, auditors found one Board member for every eight small schools, compared to one for every four large schools (classes 4 through 6A). Yet in analyzing student representation, small schools had one board member for every 759 students compared to one for every 2,619 students in classes 4 through 6A.
Kansas’ big-vs.-small rift, as prominent in the Statehouse as it is in the KSHSAA, shifted in 1992 when the Association sought legislative permission to expand its then 60-member Board of Directors, which included one representative from each league regardless of school size.
Today, leagues with combined enrollments of more than 4,000 students have a second representative — who must be a woman or from a minority population — on the 78-member board. Leagues with combined enrollments of 8,000 can get a third representative.
The change has tipped the big-small balance, Musselman said, but it came about through a democratic process.
“Prior to 1992, the over-simplified, seat-of-the-pants criticism was that the small schools ran the organization,” he said. “Now those small schools might say a shift in power has finally happened, that we can’t control our destiny because we’ll be outvoted by this larger block.
“But in 21 years here I haven’t seen that many issues break down to large school vs. small school. The issue about summer coaching may have come as close to that as anything.”
Fiscal restraint
The legislative concern about schools losing money when hosting KSHSAA-sponsored postseason events also didn’t stand up to auditing scrutiny.
Auditors did note the KSHSAA tends to keep a higher percentage of postseason gate receipts — 70 percent, a revenue stream that provides almost 90 percent of the Asssociation’s nearly $4 million operating budget — than do the other six Big 12 states surveyed. Two of three administrators surveyed thought they should retain a higher percentage for postseason events they host.
But auditors also noted the Association — which pays for officials, trophies and liability insurance at all postseason events — makes up the difference when a host school’s expenses are greater than its 30 percent take.
The auditors also reported the Association spends a larger share of operating revenue on its staff than does any other comparison state. Moreover, the KSHSAA maintains a $5.5 million cash reserve, more than any other state surveyed.
Nearly 40 percent of the Association’s budget goes to staff compensation.
Musselman said staff salaries, determined by the Association’s Executive Board, reflect a low turnover rate and resulting high service time among his top administrators.
“Stability is an indication of people finding meaning in their work, and you tend to reward that,” he said. “They know what they’re doing, and you want to retain those folks.”
Solid fiscal management, Musselman added, helped the KSHSAA build its large cash reserves. The Association exercised the option to pay off the 15-year bonds on its new $3.2 million headquarters in only five years, thus saving some $900,000 in budgeted interest payments.
The Association now plans to return some of that cushion to its member schools in tight budgetary times.
In the 2009-10 school year, membership dues — $400 annually for high schools and $125 for junior highs — will be cut in half. The KSHSAA also will pay 16 percent of the annual catastrophic insurance premium paid for every Kansas student who participates in a sport.
The Association in the past two years also made $10,000 contributions to help restore the activity programs at tornado-ravished Greensburg and Chapman.
“In these financial times, we’ll look at what can we do to help our member schools,” Musselman said. “If we can find creative ways to help schools cover costs, we’re going to look into it.”
The legislative auditors offered no recommendations for KSHSAA improvements, other than to use the data it compiled as a guideline for future considerations of rule or policy revisions.
It was the kind of inconclusive conclusion Musselman had been hoping to hear.
“Nothing in (the report) makes me ashamed,” he said. “We work hard to do right by our schools, because if we don’t, they’ll let us know. After all, we work for them.”

Mr. Contrarian Mason,

The MAJORITY of private schools that exist today were established before 1980. STA was St. Josephs, Ward, Miege, Schlagle, KMC, BC, etc were here. Get smart before you get on here and make uneducated comments. Isn't that what you said?

The Moeder's sold everything they owned and moved 400 miles from a dieing rural area to a thriving metropolis. SJA was hardly in a position to recruit. They had taken exactly one wrestler to state before Taylor enrolled. Those speculations are nothing short of completely stupid.

Cokely, get a life.

Schalge is not a private school, its a KCKS public school. St. Josephs may have preceded STA, but was it a high school. I see no sports history for St. Joseph. I can believe that Miege, just down the street in Mission was at capacity and the Catholic community wanted another HS, a HS out SW to support the growing Johnson County population--thus STA on or around 1990. Having lived here and a HS sports fan and parent for 26 years, I probably know as much sports history as you.

As for Mr. Moeder, he must have realized-or was told-there was speculation on how his son got to SJA from far west Kansas--if not-why did he do his post. Well written and very straight forward. I am sure there was more than one speculator-he would have not felt the need to post if there was only one. Even if the speculations were wrong, why does that make them stupid.

Still looking a better response to the history of state champions--a history that include all the big sports-boys and girls-and soccer and volleyball. You originally asked for a 20 year history. You must have started a review yourself and found that only 20 years did not support your arguement, so you stretched it to 30 years when the the newer private schools-schols that have been winning state championships-did not exist. If nothing else you are devious. Me, I just keep asking the same questions and then watch the dancing.

You asked me my IQ. That in itself was an attempted slam. I told you what it was 37 years ago--back then I was a lot younger, 70 pounds lighter, and a lot more handsome and dashing.
What did you say your IQ was? To come up with pussfication??it must be in the extreme range.

Coachise: Thanks. People like Bill Mason can't get it through their thick skull that a lot of parents actually take the responsibility to raise our own kids and send them to a school that demands discipline and accountability. Others want the goverment to pay and feed and raise them and whatever the gov. provides, it isn't ever enough. Then when the gov. finnally runs out of money, they start attacking the privates and try to bring them down to their level. We are wasting our time trying to educate Contrarion, he's not worthy of our time. I can appreciate the hardship you and other parents go through to get the best education for your children and if any consulation, as a 70 year old goat like me, you will reap the rewards like i have and be VERY proud of the children and grandchildren you raised to be a credit to society. Thanks for your support@ Matt

Sorry. I didn't mean to say I raised grandchildren. I just try to spoil them and send them home to get re-educated!

Just to answer your question about St. Joseph High School and to correct your assessment of how Aquinas was created. St. Joseph High School of Shawnee was definitely a high school. It started around 1930 and a new building was dedicated on 1/29/1952. It has been around a long time and definitely has a rich sports history before it was renamed to Aquinas High School in 1980. The school was relocated to the current Aquinas building in 1988. So you can see the addition of Aquinas had nothing to do with Miege reaching capacity. I am not positive which high school was established first Miege or Aquinas. Miege evolved from the old St. Agnes High School but I am not sure if St. Agnes High School was started before 1930. Here is a history of St. Joseph/St. Thomas Aquinas High School that I found on an internet search:


History of St. Joseph Catholic Schools
Shawnee, Kansas
St. Joseph School has played an important part in the history of Shawnee. Many
Belgian immigrants settled in Shawnee in the late 1800s, and great great grandchildren of
many of those immigrants are in our school today. In 1873 the first parish school, a small
two-story red brick building, was constructed behind the church that had been built in
1868. Unable to find a teacher, the pastor of St. Joseph Church, Father John Pichler,
assumed the teaching duties himself until 1876. Lay teachers soon became available and
Benedictine Sisters from Atchison came to assist in 1906. Because of a teacher shortage
to accommodate the rising enrollment, the grade school was closed from September 1912
until September 1915.
In 1921, a larger two-story native stone school was built. High school courses were
added to the curriculum in 1930, with classes being held on the top floor of the grade
school building. As enrollment grew in both the grade school and high school, a
separate high school was built one block west of the grade school. St. Joseph High
School was dedicated on January 29, 1952.
Between 1952 and 1958 the number of children in both schools nearly doubled. Every
available corner was used for classrooms, with the basement of the grade school being
put into classroom use, and the Knights of Columbus Hall providing space for students.
Grade school enrollment increased so much that some classes were held in the high
school, forcing high school classes into the cafeteria and the gym-auditorium.
In the summer of 1955 eight Brunswick bowling alleys were installed in St. Joseph
High School at a cost of $51,000. They provided many hours of entertainment for
members of the parish and the community. Increased space demands in 1968 saw them
removed and the area converted to additional educational use.
In 1958 a modern red brick grade school was built at 59th and Flint, with dedication
ceremonies November 23, 1958. About 850 students occupied the new building; with 11
Benedictine sisters and 5 lay teachers. The old stone grade school was used from 1958
until 1968 for supplemental classrooms. It was razed in 1968 to make room for the new
church.
St. Joseph High School was serving several nearby parishes, and was renamed
Aquinas High School in 1980 to reflect a change to operation by the archdiocese.
Although most of the students still came from St. Joseph Parish, many were from
surrounding parishes.
In the fall of 1988, the Aquinas football field was named Mirocke Field in honor of
Gennaro Mirocke, better known as “Rocky” or “Coach”. Coach Mirocke had taught and
coached sports at St. Joseph/Aquinas High School for 41 years when he retired from
coaching in 1992. He continued to teach for three more years at the new St. Thomas
Aquinas High School in Overland Park. When he retired from coaching he was one of
the winningest coaches in Kansas, being one of only three coaches to win over 250 games
in the state. He passed away in 1995.
When St. Thomas Aquinas High School in Overland Park opened in 1988 the Aquinas
High School in Shawnee was officially closed. That same year, the old high school
building was converted into the St. Joseph Early Education Center (EEC) for preschool,
2
kindergarten and day care. A new gymnasium was added to the building in 1994.
Another addition to the building was made in 1995 to accommodate infant care.
St. Joseph Grade School celebrated its 125th anniversary during the 1998-99 school
year. The students and staff observed the anniversary in several special ways throughout
the year, including: historical notes in the school bulletin recalling facts or events from
the parish’s and school’s past, special displays developed by parents, students and staff, a
banner placed on the east side of the school calling attention to the event, and a
photograph of the entire student body and school staff in a “125” formation on the school
grounds. Archbishop James Keleher concelebrated a 125th anniversary Mass on Friday,
January 29, 1999 with several school alumni involved in the service.
Construction on a new state-of-the art grade school building began in 2002.
Archbishop James P. Keleher dedicated the St. Joseph Education Center September 21,
2003. Capable of accommodating 720 students, the building consolidated grades
kindergarten through 8 and religious education classes which had been spread out among
three buildings on the parish campus. The facility includes 36 classrooms, including
music, art and computer rooms, a large cafeteria/commons/auditorium area, and full
wheelchair accessibility. The faculty includes 37 certified teachers and support staff.
More than 600 students were enrolled for the 2005-2006 school year.
Classrooms on the top floor of the old grade school were remodeled in 2003 to provide
space for the Padre Pio Academy, a private, independent Catholic school. The Academy
is an alternative between home schooling and the traditional Catholic school system,
providing education for students in grades kindergarten through eight.
The old grade school building became the Parish Service Center in 2004. The main
floor classrooms in the old grade school building were renovated to accommodate the
Christian Formation Office staff, the Grade School Development and Accounting office,
and the parish copy shop. Adult and youth ministries occupy the lower floor.
(Note: Included in this history are excerpts from “History of St. Joseph Church: 1868-
1968,” compiled by Mrs. Henry J. LeCluyse.)

OK. Thanks. I stand corrected. But I still see no sports history for for a St Josephs or STA prior to 1992. Lots of Miege history.

What sport did Coach Mirocke coach and in what sport did he win 250 games?

Added: I find one state championship by Shawmee St. Josephs--3A football in 1971.
I find one state championship by Shawnee STA--All Class Softball in 1982.

The earliest State championship I find for the current STA is 54321A Soccer in 1992.

I am pretty sure it would have to be football since it said they named the football field after him. It would make sense too with 250 divided by 41 seasons coming up with an average of 6.098 wins a year. Which is good but not particularly a dominating record. I think it does show the value of the long term service record of a coach that you can keep at a school long enough to build a program like this coach or Terry English Miege girls basketball and Gwen Pike Miege volleyball both of whom have been coaching there over thirty years in their programs. I think it would help any program public or private to have good coaches with many years in their programs.

You might be having a more difficult time finding earlier sports history on St. Joseph/Aquinas High School in the school's earlier years before 1988 than Miege either because they might not have as many state championships as Miege or possibly they may have been in a lower state classification than Miege due to lower enrollment in the years before the high school moved to Aquinas' current Overland Park location.

Smokey:

KC Sportsmom was talking school budgets and state educational funding and was insinuating that KSHSAA was the Kansas governing body doing all the money manipulation. Wrong. Wrong KS governing body, wrong KS budgeting agency, wrong tax authority, wrong education funding authority. Apples and oranges!!

If you don't want school activities and athletics, they cost too much, tell your local KSHSAA reps, tell your local state senator and congressman. Nothing is free--everything costs. If we can't afford something, eliminate it, take it out of the budget. If we want to cut, many would start with cutting all girls sports--they should be taking HomeEc any way. Next goes soccer, boys and girls--any way, soccer is that girly sport they play in Europe. Cut volleyball-another girls sports, plus those tight shorts are almost indecent. In the fall the girls can be cheerleaders for the true HE Man Sport-football. Cut wrestling--no one cares. Basketball, cut the girls, undecided about the boys. While we are cutting, cut music and art. We can play music off a CD at football games.

Dam, this cutting is fun!

Another reason you found so much Miege history prior to 1992 in comparison to Aquinas is all those state girls basketball titles that the Terry English coached teams won during that period and the girls volleyball state titles that the Gwen Pike coached teams won during that period. Again very good coaching that over that period of time will build a program that produces a lot of state championships and high placing finishes. It can be shown with public schools too like Van Rose with the SM Northwest cross country program. By the way that cross country program also has built an extremely strong program spirit and anyone who has seen the team compete at State can attest to it.

Thanks for your concern but I have a life and unlike you I love living it. I enjoy these posts because it is FUN for me.

I apologize to all of the Schlagleites out there! By the way, knock down the count by whatever they have won in the past 30 years. I can do a 20 year count and it won't change much. The recent past is where the majority of the championships have been won. It could be that it is because of a huge shift in demographics out west and a general exodus from the west. By taken a greater historical look the number of championships won is not disproportionate to a great scale in the Big 5. As I looked through the past I noticed Conway Springs, Smith Center, Liberal, Salina Central, McPherson, and some others had periods of dominance. I would guess that folks moved into those areas to give their kids the best opportunity if they were focused on a particular sport. I am doubting there is any way to gather that data.

Lets define recruiting. I would say that is when you are being "given" something that is NOT available to anyone else in exchange for a student to play or participate. I really doubt there is much, if any, of that going on. Most private schools need every dollar they can get so they are not running around giving out free educations for a kid to play. However they are offering a superior product in most cases so the most motivated parents take their kids to the provider of the superior services which might include sports, other activities or just the education. NO ONE is stopping any public school from doing the same thing. What is stopping them is the politics, rules, regulations, policies, and other red tape created by years of "trying to be fair and leveling the playing field". Please use your time and 146 IQ to take a look back and look at the general emasculation of the public school systems. How many male teachers were there in 1970, 1980, 1990, 2000, 2010? How many administrators? The shift in policy is to suspend or expel as many students as we can! Study that trend for a while and get back to us.

Back to the Moeder's. SJA didn't call them, send them a letter, or reach out to them. Taylor is friends with Ryne and he came to our house to workout during the summer. He recognized the opportunities offered in the metro area that were not available in Colby. The family decided to move and they picked SJA over Mill Valley, DeSoto, Eudora, Lawrence High, Olathe NW and even Lansing! SJA had never heard of the Moeders so there was no recruiting. If sports were a factor he wasn't very smart to leave! Colby won a team state wrestling championship the first year he was at SJA and they finished 10th. It is the speculation that is frustrating because a closer look reveals that promotion is one thing and recruiting is quite another.

As for my IQ. I have never felt the need to measure. I am just smart enough to get myself into trouble and just smart enough to get myself out of trouble and have fun too. I get the bills paid and my kids look up to me. Whatever that number is, it is just fine with me!

[quote=Contrarian]Cokely, get a life.


"As for Mr. Moeder, he must have realized-or was told-there was speculation on how his son got to SJA from far west Kansas--if not-why did he do his post. Well written and very straight forward. I am sure there was more than one speculator-he would have not felt the need to post if there was only one. Even if the speculations were wrong, why does that make them stupid."


Contrarian - obviously it wasn't written well enough! You were able to take what I wrote and infer a completely hidden message out of it that wasnt there. Please review my post. I clearly stated the reason I wrote it. I'm sorry, there is no sneaky little hidden agenda sublimated in it to answer a hypthetical recruiting acusation about my son specifically.
I respect your right to voice your opinion, and obviously very personal feelings about private schools, but please control yourself somewhat. I just dont believe you are a mind reader and know what prompts me to post. If you want to include me in your rants and ramblings, please stick to whats in black and white and factual. If I feel a need to address a specific recruiting comment, I will do so directly and openly.
(Just curious, is there anyone on the Lansing roster that in your opinion shouldnt be there without raising questions from someone with your line of reasoning? I dont feel that way, but you absolutely must have some issues with it.)

Contrarian this is what I said:
Why is it that with all the economical problems in the state and for that matter our country, would the KS governing body focus in on this one and relatively small issue?

You read into this wrong. My statement meant there are more "fish to fry" in both the STATE and US for ANY KS GOVERNING entity to have to mess with a system that does work instead of adding a more complicated and UNFAIR multiplier issue. Apparently SmokeyCabin was able to follow my train of thought.

BYTW, the majority of Aquinas wrestling families actually like and fraternize with the Lansing wrestling parents. We apparently have a mutual respect for each other. I can't understand your reasoning as to WHY the multiplier would be better for KS wrestling than other to punish Catholic/private schools? Please explain.

I

STATE CHAMPIONS HISTORY - KSHSAA Football
3A Shawnee-St. Joe


1971 Champion: Location:
5A Shawnee Mission-North Shawnee Mission-South
4A Kansas City-Ward Kansas City-Ward
3A Shawnee-St. Joseph Wichita-Kapaun Mt. Carmel
2A Stockton Baldwin
1A Little River Sterling College
8M Scandia Belleville

Forgive me if I sound like the "Dutch Uncle" here, but these comments are getting pretty far adrift of the intent of my intended post.

While I genuinely love the colloquy and/or discourse involved in conversations debating the merits of Religion and politics, in my humble opion, these topics invariably lead to a dead-end street, with no resolution and rife with discord, bitterness and/or hurt feelings.

Simply stated, as I perceive the issue, it is:

In athletics, do private schools enjoy some sort of advantage, given the "presumed" fact, that they can "recruit" (i.e. waive fees and/or other admission criteria) and allow students to enroll in their institution, such that they enjoy a distinct advantage over the public schools?

Not to be too dismissive of the comments and/or criticisms leveled at private and public high schools, I choose to believe that, in the main, they were not enormously helpful in sorting out the "right" position on this particular issue - not that I know what the "right" position is, but I'll give it a try:

If a private school, identifies a steller athlete,with no prior association with their school (and/or their religion - in the case of parochial schools) is contacted with an eye toward attending their school, with the understanding that expensive fees will be waived, and/or other admission criteria will waived, then I'd like to think that the athletic scales are being tweaked unfairly and unethically such that the powers that be should interecede and level the playing field.

That aside, leave it alone!

Cost of Living 1971
How Much things cost in 1971
Yearly Inflation Rate USA 4.3%
Yearly Inflation Rate UK 8.6%
Year End Close Dow Jones Industrial Average 890
Average Cost of new house $25,250.00
Average Income per year $10,600.00
Average Monthly Rent $150.00
Cost of a gallon of Gas 40 cents
Datsun 1200 Sports Coupe $1,866.00
United States postage Stamp 8 cents
Ladies 2 piece knit suites $9.98
Movie Ticket $1.50
Below are some Prices for UK guides in Pounds Stirling

Average House Price 5,632
Gallon of Petrol 0.33
To find more prices and information for the 70's including 1971

Technology 1971
• Oil Production from the North Sea begins in Norway

• Intel releases world's first microprocessor, the 4004.

• Texas Instruments releases the first pocket calculator

• The First Internet Chat rooms appear

• The First Cat Scanner Produced by EMI

• BBC Open University broadcasts begin in the UK.

• The Aswan Dam is completed in Egypt

• The Worlds Largest Tanker 372,400 tons Nisseki Maru is launched

• Apollo 14 lands on the Moon.

• Apollo 15 astronauts become the first to ride in a lunar rover a day after landing on the surface.

• Three Soviet cosmonauts die during Soyuz 11 accident.

• First Soft Contact Lens became available commercially in the USA



Inventions Invented by Inventors and Country ( or attributed to First Use )
Microprocessor USA
Pocket Calculator The Sharp Company
E-Mail USA Ray Tomlinson
Floppy Disk USA by IBM

Liquid Crystal Displays ( LCD ) Switzerland

Popular Culture - 1971
• Led Zeppelin releases their untitled fourth album
• Jim Morrison of The Doors found dead in bath tub in Paris
Popular Films
• Love Story
• Summer of '42
• Ryan's Daughter
• The Owl and the Pussycat
• The Aristocats
• Carnal Knowledge
• The Andromeda Strain
• The French Connection
Popular Musicians and songs
• James Taylor
• The Doors
• Bob Dylan
• Tony Orlando and Dawn with " Knock Three Times "
• Janis Joplin with " Me and Bobby Mcgee "
• The Who
• Mungo Jerry
• John Lennon
• The Jackson 5
• Ike and Tina Turner
• Marvin Gaye
• Rod Stewart with " Maggie Mae "
• The Osmonds
• Michael Jackson
• The Rolling Stones with " Brown Sugar "
Check out our Television Programmes From The 70s whenever possible we have included a trailer to jog your memory. Series trailers and more information are found on the decade they started.
Popular TV Programmes
• All My Children
• Mary Tyler Moore
• McCloud
• The Odd Couple
• The Partridge Family

If the governing body has the power to intercede and create a "punisher" through the multiplier then the governing body should have to prove just cause through actual PROOF that said cheating is taking place. If there is any reasonable doubt that the cheating does not occur then why "rock the boat?" As was stated in previous posts that sanctions occurred in the 1980's to certain schools then why hasn't there been any recent activity if there is such just cause?

i think it's funny cokeley always says what great opportunities there are in the metro area the metro area has always sucked when it came to wrestling besides st thomas a couple years this always cracks me up if you would have said football basketball or anything thing else it would have been correct.

And i would also be a little scared to take my kid to a catholic school or anything havent you people been watching the news lately.

Nasty, I see your argument has nothing to do with recruiting at private schools and everything to do with a dislike of Catholics. I think it is the same for contrarian. I also find it more than a little pompous that you make a comment like that and have a signature that is not even a subtle sexual comment.

By the way, it seems obvious that the way your statements lack coherence, grammar and punctuation, that you started drinking early today.

Cochise. You seem to be on a war path. Slow down before your horse throws a shoe.

Was the name calling and accusations really necessary?

I wouldn't let my son join the Boy Scouts!

Why would I hate Catholic? A great religion. I enjoy going to a Catholic ceremony: marriage, funeral, christening, Christmas Eve, Easter morning and see the deliight on the face of the Catholic attendees. Will say thev same about protestant religious cerenonies--although some are very uptight. Would like to attend and see a Jewish ceremony/service--don't know any Jews to invite me.

KC Mom. You are switching your arguement. Still apples and oranges.

How do we know if there is anything ilegal happening if someone does not investigate--maybe a litle strong--look into. If there were sanctions in the 1980s, does that not say that there may be cause for sanctions now. Someone did a boo boo in the 80s, maybe it is happening again.

Cheating. Don't even want to go there. Go read SVO69' post earlier today.

Somewhere at the end of a recent post someone stated that the parrish paid the tuition of the students from the parrish who attend KMC. Nothing wrong with that, except, if the parents of those students are claiming all of the parrish donations as an income tax deduction. Think that is illegal if it is happening. That would be public funding of church schools. Would warrant a severe sanction by KSHSAA, not the Government of Kansas--unless KS Dept of Revenue started proceedings to recover the lost income taxes.

You aked about IQ. I told you. Now you want to belittle me, and by using two underline spaces you inicated the IQ must be less than 100.

Ref you daitribe on recruiting: What is "I really doubt there is much, if any, of that going on" That indicates that there is some going on, just not very much. How much is some and how much is much. The more you open your mouth the more you put your foot in it.

As for recruitment of Ryne and Moeder. I answered that previously. Again, recruitment of Ryne never crossed my mind. There was speculation about Moeder, but not expressed by me. Mr. Moeder answered in his own post.

For the rest of your post, same old worn out words we have heard before.

Actually i was just trying to be funny no hate of catholics just like to get people fired up and the recruiting thing is not a big deal to me because if thats all st thomas and bishop carrol can bring then they better get it down a little better they better take a note from cokeley he seems to be doing a fine job at it wait 3 more years and i bet they meaning sja will be competing for a title.

a

Contrarian,
Guess who said all these things?

I guess a related question is How many kids on free or reduced price meals at our affluent suburban parochial schools. Bet not many! Be nice to attend or work in a school where the biggest problem is probably dad wouldn't let Johnny or Bambi drive the Beemer to school today.

Ok. Good coaches and good programs win trophies. No arguement. Stll doe not account for the disparity in the state qualifers or champions in all sports from the parochial schools.

MFE. Do you have your white hood and sheet on. The only thing you apparantely know about inner city schools is what you see as you drive by on th way to your lily white world. Plus, you can see a lot of the same at our suburburan public schools. And, I have seen many of your boys and girls at various activities and it seems that away from school they dress and act just like the city kids---and they play their RAP music just as loud. Must be nice to live in isolation.

I am going to make a wild assumption that you are a token black at a big suburban parochial school. Why else wou you attack some kids----or, you really do have a white hood and sheet!

How many severe CP kids in crutches or wheel chairs do your schools have? How many BD kids? How many kids on reduced /free meals. I have yet to see ananswers on these questions from a 5A or 4A KV area suburban private school. If SPED is not a problem go talk to the Kansas budgeteers and the SM, Olathe and BV school districts.

have nothing personal against private or parochial schools. We are not Catholic. We sent our youngest son to a local Catholic elementary school--until we pulled him out because of a wacko nun teacher and a wacko nun principal. The son was drawing skateboarder symbols and the nuns were adament he was drawing swastikas. Had the nuns ask him what a swastika was and he said he did not know. when I asked the nuns how many of the 5th graders could explain immaculate conception, thats when we parted company!

I have figured out why private church based schools win so many high school championships nationwide. Students teachers, coaches and parents of these schools must be more Godly, and therefore God wants and makes them win.!!!

HAS to be the reason!!!

To hamper their wining would be un-Godly and sinful and would probably result in all us public school heathens being sent immediately to hell (do not pass GO and do not collect $200)(are Christian non-believers heathens and Muslim non-believers infidels--or is it the other way around?????can't keep it straight!)
I am not mocking God.

I am mocking all those who continue to offer a multitude of weak rationalizations and step around why there is such disparity between the accomplishments of parochial and public schools in athletics.

As for MFE, his wanting to slap the sh** out of a few people, or calling some of the kids pimps and prostitutes, is the lowest comments I have read on this board. Perhaps MFE is one of those more Godly people and he earns Heaven Points for his spreading the word!!

How many parishes credit parish donations to the catholic school tuition of the students whose family made the original donation to the parish--and the parents then claimed the parish donation as an itemized income tax deduction. Have catholic friends who told me this common.

If a black student from KC Harmon, a very much inner city schooland environment, with a voucher, with severe CP-in a wheel chair and requiring a full time para, are you and Cokely going to accept that student at your private school. I doubt it. But, I bet you will accept the normal child of the same religion as you who has a voucher. Why the voucher? Probably the parents, at the urging of the church and private school, just wanted to go to a private school. So, public funding of private schools. How will that improve public schools.

Please tell me what is the Lord's Diner. Do noy see it on the list of schools. Why go enroll the disabled child. Just have an administrator at STA, SJA, KMC, Bishop Carrol, Hayden, etc come on this forum and tell me they will accept the disabled child--and that he will even accept them without a voucher.

And again, go read what I said about church donations versus claiming that donation as a tax deduction if credited to the students tuition.

I have come to the conclusion that public schools can never compete with private schools in either athletics or academics. As long as public shcool administrators and teachers are uneducated, try to teach the un-disciplined and un-teachables, who look and act like pimps and prostitutes, there is no future for public education. I originally thought the best proposal, for public and private schools, would be to bump the private schools one classification. Now, in my opinion, the probable best course would be to separate private and public schools by creating one or more private school only classifications--perhaps even have private schools form their own separate activities association, their own leagues, their own post season state tournaments, and their own academic activities. They would not have to be concerned with public schools and we would not be concerned with them.

OK. I looked at the Fire web page. See a lot of fund raising activities, lots of golf tournaments, folks standing around grinning for the camera. What I do not see are pictures of severely handicapped children in a parochial school. I read the news article about the three special needs boys-did not see any pictures of the boys--what is their needs-and what assistance do they require--wheel chairs, crutches, paras. Apparently, since they play softball, their needs are not physical.



Before you start accusing others of name calling and making unfounded accusations, recall your own words. In all your statements I don't see much addressing the issues of supposed private school recruitment and the need to bump private schoosl up a class. I truly feel sorry for you. I don't know how you have been wronged or what happened to make you this angry, but I hope you don't speak the same way around your children.

I am on no warpath, but I have been watching these blogs without chiming in. Now I feel it is time to speak up. You have made this personal to you and hence to many of us also. I don't apologize for sending my kids to private school and you don't have to rationalize your decision.

Why don't you try to keep on subject instead to the personal attacks on the private schools and especially Cokeley. I don't know the history between you two, but both of you need to tone it down a notch toward each other.

Nasty,
I apologize for my comment. Contrarian is correct. My comment was uncalled for and I sincerely apologize. I won't say something stupid like that again.

Mr. Moeder.

I do not understand your lastest post. I acknowledged you explanation in your previous post of how you and and you son got to Johnson County and SJA. I also stated I accepted you post with out question--which means I believed everything you posted. I did not ask for your response/explanation, nor do I know of any such request by any poster on this forum. What did I supposedly infer? Do not think I could have been clearer in what I said. I did say there was speculation on your move (on this web forum, in the stands at wrestling meets, etc. I read it, I heard it). But not my speculation. Plus, I did say that you must have know of the speculation or you would not have felt the need to post/respond. Have I commited some great foul, have I demeaned you or your son. I don't think so.

Once again CONTRARIAN, I restate my question to you-

I can't understand your reasoning as to WHY the multiplier would be better for KS wrestling than other to punish Catholic/private schools? Please explain.

Do you find that by making incendiary statements that you get out of having to answer the question directed to you?

By the way wouldn't you just love for one of us to tell you that we tithe to a Catholic church that our kids get to go to catholic school at and we count that as a DEDUCTION against our taxes? Wouldn't this just send YOU over the edge on this TAX day?

[quote=moeder][quote=Contrarian]Cokely, get a life.


"As for Mr. Moeder, he must have realized-or was told-there was speculation on how his son got to SJA from far west Kansas--if not-why did he do his post. Well written and very straight forward. I am sure there was more than one speculator-he would have not felt the need to post if there was only one. Even if the speculations were wrong, why does that make them stupid."


I responded exactly to what you posted above. Specifically YOUR WORDS of: "if not-why did he do his post." Secondly YOUR WORDS: "He would have not felt the need to post if there was only one."

Those were your comments , I replied. As stated previously, I posted in support of the private school admitance in general, not for my son as an individual. I am no different than many of the others that have posted on here. We have given up alot, sold items, not bought items, not sent Taylor to certain camps, work-outs and too many other cost saving decisions to mention in order to afford his education at St. James. Am I am asking for your empathy or feeling sorry for myself or having "buyers remorse", absolutely not! We made our own decision and are very pleased that we did.
I believe you and I are very, very different personalities. You enjoy and thrive on the attention you are getting - I dont want or need it. You enjoy arguing and bickering just for the sake of arguing and bickering for entertainment - I prefer to stay away from the arguing and bickering as I dont find it entertaining and once I do get involved it becomes "personal" to me. I dont need that either! I'll end now on this topic. I am more than happy to continue with you personally through a PM if you feel it is necessary.

Ok. Lots of posts dragging me through the coals. Will try to answer in this one post. Bear with me--I will be jumping around.

Cochise copied and relisted several of my posts. Yes they are mine and I stand by each of them. What I do not see in my posts, but Cochise says he does, is name calling and accusations. I see no words in my posts like ignorant, dumb, stupid , or asking for someone's IQ-which in itself is leanding to a slander--especially when leaving two underlined blanks for a response indicating an IQ of less than 100. But, if I go back through a whole lot of posts from whom I assume are Catholics, I have been called or labeled each of those terms: dumb, ignorant, stupid, and my IQ belittled. Those words appear to be quite common in the Catholic vocabulary. Additionally, according to Cochise--and several other posters-I have demeaned, ridiculed, slandered, etc. Catholics, the Catholic Church, Catholic schools, Catholic families, whatever. Not in the posts Cochise copied-go read them and give me the exact slanderous terms I used. Go read any of my posts and show me where I have attacked a person or a religion--I have said a some bad things to or about Cokely or MFE--but nothing concerned with religion-and I continue to think MFE's saying he wants to slap the shit out of someone, MFE's saying inner city kids look like "pimps and prostitute, and Cokely's use of the vile word "pussification"-are the most tasteless comments on this forum. I See no Catholic comming on line and telling MFE and Cokely to clean it up.

What I am going to say now is the harshest comment I have or will post: To me many of you are paranoid: everyone is attacking you personally, attacking your religion. I suscribe to a couple of on-line Hebrew Newspapers. Catholics, on this forum, on this topic, on this issue, sound like Jews when anyone, Jew or non-Jew asks a simple question about Israel, Arabs in Israel, Palestinians, Gaza, or the West Bank. The immediate response is 'your an anti-semite", "a Jew hater", "a Jew baiter", or some other less gentle name. From the Catholics I hear anti-Catholic, Catholic hater, Catholic baiter, stupid, dumb, or ignorant.

This post and this topic is no way about religion. It is about perceived or actual disparities between public and private schools and the number of high school state championships.

KC Sportsmom. Her question to me: "WHY the multiplier would be better for KS wrestling than other to punish Catholic/private schools? Please explain. In all honesty it would not affect wrestling. To me wrestling is not the sport in question. I consider wrestling a sport of individuals, individuals who win individual champioships--and by the way those individual efforts are then awarded team points so some school can be called the State Team Champ. I, and several others, have listed and
discussed the percentage of private schools (6+ percent) to public schools. Probably the reason the modifier would not affect wrestling-the percentage of private school wrestlers to public school wrestler is probably 1% or 2%. Why the low percentage. From what I have seen at tournaments (the B/L Bobcat, Baldwin Invitational, regionals) private schools seldom come with a full roster of wrestler, much less a roster of high quality wrestlers. Meige this past year had maybe four quality wrestlers, if that many. STA had maybe four quality wrestlers. SJA, four or five quality wrestlers. As you go to the smaller school classification, the number of public schools increase, the number of wrestlers increase, and the number of private schools and wrestlers decrease. Too much competition to fight through for the private school wrestlers and teams. If there is a multiplier, or a classification bump, private school wrestlers will be affested--fair or unfair-they just got caught in a movement. And lastly I do not, nor do I think other posters think-this issue is designed just to punish private schools.

A couple of words. The Issue of state championships is about team field sports: football, basketball soccer, volleyball, softball, and baseball. This issue is not about inner city schools in any classification. Inner city schools have lots of problems, the least being able to compete in athletics against either surban public or private schools. Not going to happen, except in basketball, the inner city sport (Sumner Academy in downtown KCKS was this year's 4A BB Champ--I think they beat two parochial schools--SJA in the District and Topeka Hayden in the State). Continuing. What this issue is about is the disparity in State championships-in field sports-between suburban public schools and suburban private schools--including the disparity in championships in public and private shools in smaller towns and rural Kansas. Kids on these team, public and private, come from the same or similiar situations: finacial, religious, club sports, family support, HS sports and activities, etc. If they have all these coomon attributes, why the disparity in state championships--and there is a disparity. Why would the NCK and Frontier Leagues initiate the proposals to modify, to split classifications, to bump private schools a classification, to move private schools totally to separate classifications. There must be a perceived or actual disparity, a year after year disparity.

Enuff said!

An added late comment. Cochise asks what do I have against Cokely. Nothing. I would not know the man if he knocked on my front door.

I have been a member of this forum for two or three years. From day one I have read Cokely's rantings, ravings, name calling, accusations, vile word "pussification", politics etc. You know what I classify Cokely to be--A BULLY!! The louder he screams the more he thinks people will ignore his antics and back off. I think most people recognize his behavior.

He will!

Dang right! And where I am from we get the first shot in if we think someone is going to slap us. I was 112lb senior so I don't think anyone used the word bully but I am proud to say I mastered the cheap shot as was not afraid to use it. Contrarian, they are just words...You can put as many numbers on top of two underscores as you choose. I am not sure if it would represent your IQ or your IG... I am sorry you are so offended by my posts. A simple solution, when you see Don King's picture, just skip right on past that post. An even better answer, you don't have to be on here. Go help some other sport out.

Not worth responding too.

I sense a contradiction here . . .

cokely is the master of the cheap shot, but not the suckerpunch!

You registered on February 19, 2009 and, as of today, you have beeen a member just under fourteen (14) months.

I am Catholic. I did post the following in another thread.

USAW Folkstyle Nationals

Richard! I am still waiting for you to get a spell checker on this site. You are a wheel in this oeganization, are you not. Perhaps your are just a monkey wrench thrown in the works.

Bill Mason

Just a guy!

Will: I think you left 1 to many spaces for Contrarion's IQ. He is either stupid or an arrogant trouble-maker. He said I called the kids pimps and prostitutes. I simply said that the private school teachers work for less in the private school because they are dealing with kids that are more disciplined and the parents are supportive. I gave the example of school uniforms vs. kids dressed like pimps and prostitutes at the adjoining school. (post dated 3/23/7:17 PM) He then brought "race" into it and "presumed they were black kids looking and "acting" like pimps and prostitutes. For his information, I don't recall any black kids but I don't look for a child to be black or white. Contrarion must or he wouldn't play the race card so quick.The "slap the sh!!!!" comment was referance the private schools ability to do that without fear of a lawsuit in order to instill some discipline, with parental support, and team work in sports. (post 4/07/ 12:26 PM) His anti-religion remarks are to numerous to research but one comes to mind "mfe get godly points for his remarks". I am proud to have gone to a public school along with all my children and grandchildren. I am more proud of the parents that sacrifice so must to send their children to private schools so they don't have to deal with the likes of Contrarion so their children can study without all the other distractions.

Think I will respond to Cokely. Too good an opportunity to pass up.

First, I deleted the lasrt couple of lines in my response to Cochise and KC Sportsmom. Possibly too harsh, but probably true.

Now back to Cokely--the artist of the cheap shot!! The Cokely comment I take the most umbrage to was "public school educators are dumb"-or was it dumbasses-and then he tried to mealy mouth and say that was not what he meant. In the Army we called that "a lack of intestial fortitude"--a lack of guts to stand behind your word or your comments.

My wife is a teacher/counselor in a inner city high school in KCKS. A great school but stiil a tough job. My wife has a BS , two masters, a couple of hours short of a doctrate and a stack of certifications: several in special education, counseling, education administration, and I don't know what else--lost count. My wife works at least 60 plus hours a week-at school or at home. She loves her job-I have been trying to get her to retire but she will not discuss it. The kids love her-black, Hispanic, whites, and Asians,. and she loves the kids. If they have a problem they go to Mrs. Mason. If their parents have a problem they go to Mrs. Mason before they go to their child's counselor, or before they go to the principal or an assistant principal. I sometimes help at the school and I can not count the time students have come to Mrs. Mason for just a hug. My wife is a neat person, dedicated to her job and her students-- [ and Cokely labels her dumb-or was it dumbass.

If Cokely wants to come to my house and knock on my door--Have him send me a PM and I will send him my address. Cokely started out as a light weight, he still is!!

I had to use the dictionary a couple of times. RichardD, who gets upset at spelling errors, has yet to get a spell checker on this web site.

I see MFE jumped back in. He also mealy mouths about what he said. More deficiencies in intestinal fortitude.

I gave you the date and time of the posts! If you are not smart enough to go back and read them, I can't help you. Nothing mealy mouth about that. I did notice that you had to include "race" in your last posts. Get over it! It's 2010!

Contrarian,

Or is it Hallucinarian... I used one word "uneducated" and you are twisting it into dumb and dumb ass??? Surely you can understand that Educators can be uneducated. Just because you know how to teach math doesn't meant that you understand economics. For a guy who promotes himself as having a 146 IQ or IG, you really aren't very smart either! A lawyer is certainly educated in the area of law but does that make him capable of practicing medicine? My point is that public school educators know very little about private schools but the "knee jerk" reaction is "They are winning too much so it MUST be unfair. Penalize them!" You pretend to be so educated but you can't spell or you don't take the time to check your own spelling. Maybe that wasn't part of the IQ test you took... I think I have clearly explained my position and supported it with data. That is why I am on here. Why are you on here? Before I come over, can I ask "What is your wife fixing for dinner?"

She gets home so late from her dumb job that I generally have to eat a cheese sandwich

Sure seems like I have been a member 2 or 3 years. When your busy time flies.

One more time for MFE.

Are we supposed to feel sorry for you because you grew up poor. A lot of us did that. My dad worked with his hands in construction. My mom was a stay at home mother and housewife. When my dad started smoking roll you owns in the winter, when construction was shut down and he was on unemployment, I was old enough to know thing were tight. Ate a lot of brown beans, fried potatoes and hot dogs--dam they were good eats. Also ate a lot of just mayo sandwiches. Both parents had to quit school in the depression and go to work. All us kids went to public schools. But we must have learned something either at home or at school. Me, I am probably the dumbest of the lot. I paid for and graduated from a small state college, entered the Army, went to Viet Nam, carried a gun and flew helicopters, retired from the Army. Have a Masters degree From Boston U, plus attended several Army technical and professional development schools. Worked 16 years for a large defense company Older brother attend Cornel, fluent in six or seven languages, a beatnik, then a hippie and a pot head for 50+years. Next brother retired from a major oil well drilling, fuel and pipeline company as the head of Info tech. Put himself thru night school. Oldest sister a housewife married to a chemist. Youngest sister, first an art and English teacher, then a lawyer, then a Federal Bankruptcy Judge in the Western Missouri District Court. Twin brothers. One a graduate of the Air Force Academy--killed in service to his country in a plane crash. The other twin-just a working guy.

First time I have ever brought my family history into any thing. I don't need or ask anyone to feel sorry for me!

I like mine grilled. If you have any ham and pickles those taste good too.

Just for you I will buy some baloney and pickles.

Oscar Meyer made sure that everyone knew how to spell B O L O G N A by the time they were three years old. I am just saying... I worked one summer at National Beef Packing Co. so I know exactly what "beef by products" are so I will stick with ham. No bologna for me.

Down in the hills we ate baloney. I think Bologna is a town in italy.

Down in the hills we also ate minced ham. Tastes a lot like baloney. Tastes better when fried.

My dad and uncles, products of the great depression in the 30s, called baloney and minced ham sandwiches "WPA Pork Chops"

Have you ever neen to Bolivar, Mo where they have the statue of Simon Bol'i var. How about Versailles, Mo-pronounced Ver Sails--spelled like and named after Versailles in France. And then theres New Madrid (Mad Rid) named after Madrid (Ma drid) in Spain. Before television came to the hills, they spoke better Queen's English then the the English in the UK.

Fried bologna is good, but I haven't had it for so long. Unfried bologna sandwiches with mayo, lettuce, and garden grown tomatoes was awful good, while baling hay, along with a cool glass of iced tea. And once I got old enough to partake of adult beverages, which was about 6th grade for me apparently, a cold beer washed it down well also.

Contrare, I respect your service to our country. One of the things I regret, after getting to know some vets, and hearing their stories, is that I didn't take time from my party years to serve the country in the armed forces. I guess coaching kids' wrestling, which might produce a heck of a special forces, hand to hand combat soldier, is gonna have to suffice. Along with supporting wholeheartedly the thankless jobs that our men and women do so you and I have the opportunity to yell at each other and make fools of ourselves.
I don't know how you vets put up with the lack of respect from the anti war crowd, and our current admistration's lack of a sense of reality when it comes to being a superpower. His latest stupid statement about "whether we like it or not, we are a superpower" was another indication of his dismissiveness of our role as a "mother hen" to those that can't fight for themselves. There are times when I want to say "screw you ungrateful SOBs, be it Iraq, Afghanistan, or wherever" but I guess we have to look at the broader picture of what it would mean to world security if we allow idiots to be in power. Hell, we have idiots in power, so I guess these other countries think we are hypocrits for telling them who should be their leaders!!

This doesn't mean I agree with much of what you say, so don't get a big head. Since you are a vet, I'll just be nicer.......

Nice words Doug but not necessary. Actually kind of embarassing.

You did say you would shine my combat boots, didn't you? Nah, just kidding.

How about cutting up some green onions and baloney (from Bologna), fry them up, and then scramble a skillet full of eggs on top. Can't wait till my onions are big enough to pull.

There are two possible items that would provide the private schools with a benefit that the public schools do not have.

1. The private schools recruit
2. The private schools have a bigger pool to draw from

While number 2 may be a concern, it doesn't appear to be the real issue. It has been pointed out that the Olathe school district allows students to choose which Olathe high school they attend, thus having a bigger pool to draw from.

The heart of the issue is whether the private schools, mainly Catholic, recruit. Recruit meaning that an athletically gifted student, non-Catholic, was recruited by another parent or coach to attend. The second piece of the recruiting is the financial piece, ie were they given any type of tuition relief. It is important to distinguish between the two.

Recruiting to Catholic schools happens. It can happen via parents and coaches. It happens directly and indirectly.

It happens directly by parents talking to other parents about the school, possibly the athletic program, and promoting the school. It seems the Moeder kid would not have looked at SJA if the Cokely kid weren't there. To be fair, this also happens with families where the kids do not play sports. It's normal. In some areas people have moved into different school districts for the same reason.

There appears to be a second type of direct recruiting that appears to be more blatant. Of course no one can provide proof. Examples of this would be the two older Rush brothers who added Pembrooke Hill (one of the most expensive HS in KC metro). After growing up in KCMO, they went to Pembrooke Hill and lived with a family in Mission Hills (pretty expensive) while their mother continued to live in KCMO. There were articles in the KC Star about it. The younger Rush, the one that played BB at KU, bounced around HS in KC and ended up in some academy in Virginia I believe. Miege has had a few exceptional athletes n the past 5 years who were not Catholic and attended Miege - Rellefords and Justin McKay (D1 kids).

To be fair, there is also indirect recruiting that occurs. This happens when a program has success and people want to attend to be part of it or to benefit from it. An example. If you live in the KC area, think your son has the ability to be a major college football player, and can afford Rockhurst HS tuition, many parents would consider it. Rockhurst has a stellar football program and has a large number of kids play D1 football. There are a lot of Kansas Catholic kids who go to Rockhurst to play football. IF you live in the KC area and have a daughter who plays soccer, volleyball or basketball, the Catholic schools have the best programs. If you thought it would give your child an opportunity and could afford it, most would consider it. This also happens with families whose son or daughter is not an athlete and happens in public schools. Blue Valley is a great school district and people will move their for the education. An acquaintance of mine sent their son to a Catholic school because he had some problems and they wanted to get him away from his crowd and were hoping it would help him. He did not play sports and it was apparently a great experience for him.

With all that said, it's hard to believe the private (Catholic) schools are ONLY successful because they recruit the non Catholics that would otherwise attend the local public school. Catholics have a deep tradition in sports and have strong youth programs. I would guess if you look at the majority of the Catholic HS rosters, you will find the majority of kids grew up going to Catholic schools and participating in Catholic youth sports. I would challenge someone to do that with a roster from one of the recent state championship teams. IF the majority, 95% plus, of the students went to Catholic church or school, than the argument that they have a bigger pool and recruit is not as strong. They are pulling from a pool of students (primarily Catholic) that creates a student body that is approximately the same size as the public school.

You could argue that if the Catholics wanted to dominate in sports, they would limit the number of HS in a metro area to 1, similar to Lawrence High for a while. Combining Bishop Ward, Miege, SJA and STA would probably be a pretty dominant 6A program. You could also argue that if you had multiple Catholic HS in one metro area (Miege, SJA, STA, Rockhurst, etc...) that they are competing for Catholic students and that could be a disadvantage.

I believe there is recruiting that happens with Private/Catholic schools. I don't think it is as significant as people would like to make it out. I don't think the majority of the Catholic schools have a significant benefit. As stated above, there are some obviously blatant examples and those examples give credence to the argument. I also believe it happens in the public schools as well.

The unfortunate thing is that I'm sure there are some Catholic schools that have won state championship teams with full rosters of Catholic kids, only to be criticized for recruiting by people who really don't know.

It is a good debate, but one that won't end regardless of the potential rule changes. It's a chicken and egg discussion.

rejones,

I like your post although I do not agree with very aspect of it. I believe you are giving both sides of it unlike the article in the Kansas City Star yesterday. I also felt this about another post you made on this issue in another topic. I wish the KC Star reporter could read your posts on this subject.

You say that private schools have a bigger pool to draw from which implies to me more students to draw from and realistically I do not believe that is true. Private schools do have a bigger area to draw from and that would be a more fair statement. The reason I say it is not more students to draw from is that not all families can afford to send their students to private schools and that severely limits the pool that private schools can draw from. It has more to do with the high tuition that private schools charge. There are other costs too like the travel and time parents need to invest to transport their kids longer distances to school. Not all families would qualify for financial aid at a private school and even if they did there is a stigma for some in accepting it and they do not consider it for that reason. Another thing that takes a lot of families out of the consideration of a private school is that many families would not send their children to a religious schools because they do not want their child exposed to that religion.

I am not positive about this but I thought that besides Olathe that the students in the Shawnee Mission and Blue Valley school districts also had the option to choose the school they wanted inside their school districts. Perhaps someone within those districts could either verify or correct me on that.

Direct recruiting of an athlete by a coach or other school official that involves an offer of a financial athletic scholarship or other type of financial incentive is no doubt a violation of KSHSAA policies and if proven should be sanctioned. I would be fine with that type of sanctioning of a private school if they gave a scholarship or other financial incentive to an athlete that was strictly based on his or her athletic skills by the school or booster of the school. I also think a public school should be sanctioned if an athlete or their family was given some financial incentive for their son or daughter to attend the public school by the school or booster of the school.

The indirect recruiting by parents and others happens at both public and private. It will always be there at both. Personally I do not think that it is that big of a deal and I really don't know how you can legislate it or why you would want to. If some wrestling parent from SM West tried to talk me into sending my son to SM West and if I tried to instead convince him to send his son to Aquinas, is that really something that the KSHSAA should be trying to prevent as long as we were not offering money to do that? Is that type of conversational recruiting between parents something that the KSHSAA should be sanctioning the respective high schools for. I really do not think so.

The majority of students at the Catholic private schools are from the Catholic high schools in the immediate area of the school. I think you would find that to be true on most of the teams at the Catholic high schools too. Catholic schools do let non Catholics enroll and it is definitely not just athletes. Catholic students do sometimes attend a Catholic school that is not as close as another Catholic high school so that they can be on a particular team. I know that happens but it is not a violation of any rules and I know it happens at public schools too. There are a couple of recent examples in wrestling in the Kansas and Kansas City Missouri area of it in public schools. The point is that this type of thing definitely happens at both private and public schools.

You are doing very good posting on the subject even though we are not in complete agreement.

Thank you Mr Nowak. I agree with your post. I was probably too verbose. It is a very emotional topic. Here are my key points:

1. Some schools are impacted by recruiting, both directly and indirectly (both private and public, TYPICALLY BECAUSE OF THEIR SUCCESS, both in academics and extracurricular activities.

2. The impact of this "recruiting" is not as significant as you would think. There are exceptions and those exceptions tend to be very big names that do impact a particular team and everyone notices.

3. The larger pool is a debatable argument, particularly if the schools are providing Financial assistance. There are examples in the public districts where kids have more choice. It is easy to argue this both ways.

4. The impact of a multiplier on some schools would be significant. There are valid examples of that in Missouri. While STA or Miege may have success even with a multiplier, others would struggle to compete in some sports, particularly football. But, if I were a 5A football coach in a private school, I might vote for it to get out of 5A dominated by Hutch .

5. The majority of the Catholic school players, including the better players are Catholic kids. If you look at some of the Rockhurst kids, Temple, Belfonte, Teahan, they came from Catholic grade schools. The Catholic schools have tradition, large participation rates and some good youth and high school programs. Rockhurst suits 100 kids for their home football games. With that tradition comes expectations. This also can be seen in successful public schools, pick a sport.

6. Just like MLB, the NBA and the NCAA, people like to see parity. They don't see it sometimes in HS sports, so it must be unfair. There are some valid examples of why it appears to be unfair with recruiting. There are probably more valid examples where they just got beat by a better team or someone that worked harder.

7. I saw Husker Fans post on coaching and it does play into the equation SOMETIMES. Examples are Miege girls basketball, Rockhurst football, Hutchinson football, There can be no denying that these programs are where they are because of the coaching. There are cases where the coaching may actually negatively impact a team's success, including the private schools. Anyone who has been a parent has seen this.

I'm done

Everyone needs to read the post under the 6A and 5A Moving Topic.

6A 5A Not goin back to the Intrust in Wichita.