5A and 6A Wrestling Move (Eagle Article)

Article

Pretty sad day actually! I think i would of voted no for that arena if I would of known that high school events were going to be priced out of being able to use it! I would love to sit down face to face with the Wichita Sports Commission and ask them what they are trul thinking by letting this decent sized event get away. Hotels, restraunts, had to of made some money that week-end!

While State May be moving, I am not done fighting the fight!

This is quite a shocker--and not refering to WSU.

What and where now?? Need to get to KU Allen or KSU Bramlage and at least put 654As back together, if they can fit in those BB arenas. Don't think 3 classes will fit in the Salina arena!

This article needs to be read by everyone in the Kansas wrestling community.

Probably save a lot of money if 4A,5A and 6A were all put back together! If there was a place that could house this event. Not too mention, wherever this event was held would have a nice boost to the economy of the community that Thursday, Friday and Saturday!

That can't happen before 2014 when the contract with Salina has run.

I think Hartman Arena is perfect for 5A & 6A.

I vote for Hartman Arena! Easy access and plenty of parking and a darn nice guy! Kids Classic was held there and it was neat!

Never been there but looks good on the web.

Says it seats only 5,000 for sports. Is that enough for 6A and 5A. Those 2 class filled 2/3s or more of the Kansas Coliseum back when 654A state was there--and I think the Coliseum seating was around or over 10,000. Do not think you can fit three classes in Hartman. Have heard that some 4A folks do not want 4A to leave Salina. But, geting three classes under one roof should save a lot of rent and other costs--if anybody is looking to save money.

A good reason to stay in the Wichita is or was the community support structure for the tournament--or so it was a few years ago when I last attended. Assume it was still there the last couple of years when the tournament was at Intrust.

Is the Coliseum still operating? A big barn but still a good venue.

“They pretty well priced us out of the market to use that facility,” said Gary Musselman, the executive director of the Kansas State High School Activities Association.

Musselman said expenses were triple what the KSHSAA paid to use the Kansas Coliseum.

Let me guess, no one knew ahead of time what the cost to use this facility would be? Don't they usually sign a contract for something like this? It sounds like someone is being overpaid to make a bad decision.

4A was the class that filled the Coliseum back then. The first year 4A went to Salina it was reported that the crowd for the finals back at the Coliseum, only filled the first few rows of the upper deck. Not sure if that was accurate as I was in Salina. The amount of seating at Hartman should be more than sufficient for the two upper classes. They had 9 full mats in use for the kids tournament there this year, so it can handle the 8 required for state, with room to spare.
The Coliseum is closed and moth-balled and will likely be demolished at some point in the future. Too bad, it was still serviceable and would have worked nicely for our purposes.

If they can't/don't go back to Wichita, where could they go that has a big enough facility?

Could go to Kemper in KCMO. In Missouri but only by half a mile. Big enough for professional hockey and arena football. No going to happen!

Really can't see Wichita letting it get away. To much of a community money maker for restaurants, fast food, and hotel/motels! Bet the Sedgwick County Sporta Commission and County Commissioners are getting an ear full.

That HAS to be it! OR, the price for the next contract went up that much? Ya think? I wouldn't put it past those people at KSHSAA to just have signed a blank contract and not known how much it cost!

SportsFan02.

Challenge you on 4A filling the Coliseum-especially in the mid and late 90s. 4A filled one end and around both sides to about where the end of a basketball court woul be (about even with where the tournament admin guys/computers used to sit). 6A and 5A filled both long sides and the other end, 5A on the North, 6A on the South. Ark city, Kudos to Beeson and the Ark City Crowd, always filled one section by themselves.

What you said about the first year 4A went to Salina may be true. But, if 6A and 5A filled the bottom tier, plus two rows of the Upper tier, both all the way around the Coliseum, that is probably as many or more 6A and 5A spectators/fans (6,000 to 7,000) as when the 3 classes were there. Still begs the quetion, is Hartman big enough seating only 5,000.

Surely KSHSAA has attendance history for all the years when there has been just a two class 6A/5A tournament. Critical info to make a selection on a different facility.

Late 90s Abilene filled up two full sections Top to bottom North West side of gym, I have pictures. I would guess Goodland almost had as many people there as well. Abilene won it, Dodge City won it. It was the first year Ark City did NOT win it. (I think they won 13 in a row prior.)

4a filled and Rocked that stadium in 1999. We were back to back state champs with 5 seniors we had a huge following.

The only match I can remember from 5a or 6a that year is Jeff Razor(JC) Winning State in triple OT and was so excited he sprinted off the mat and jumped over the Hockey Wall. They had to call him back so the ref could raise his hand,

If you were there in 99 It was the 4a fans that filled half of the Kansas Colliseum.

Just a little history.......

The first thing to remember about the Coliseum is that you have to separate it by the various sub-facilities (Britt Brown Arena, the Pavillions, etc.). Most people when they talk about the "Coliseum" mean the Britt Brown Arena. As you said, Britt Brown Arena is closed, but the Pavilions are still operating and there are many horse shows and the like coming this summer.

Now, about you calling the Arena "serviceable", not really.

The issue with Britt Brown Arena was that it had serious challenges in many areas (accessibility, restrooms, exiting, etc.) and exposed the county to potential lawsuits in these areas (particularily around accessibility). In order to address those accessibility challenges the entire facility would have to have been brought up to current building codes, which included correcting everything mentioned and more. In 2003 the cost of these repairs and updates was estimated at $55 Million and still would have only been (officially) a 9,900 seat venue. Unlike Koch Arena at WSU, the structural system of BBA designed so that expanding the arena was also not possible.

So, good or bad, we have a new arena.

Now, I truly enjoyed watching 5A and 6A there, and it would be a shame if they moved the tournament. BUT, I am very appreciatine of the KSHAA standing firm around costs, especially now.

I would like to know what the single day attendance at the 5A/6A tournament was, as I think that Hartman would be enough. They had the entire 2nd concourse at Intrust Bank Arena closed for the tournament. If my sources are correct, that is 6K seats meaning that the lower level seats 8K to 9K with the floor completely open. Take away the 2K seats below the main concourse level that were folded in and I think you are getting close to Hartman's numbers.

Will be interesting to see what happens, my letter to the County Commissioners on keeping the tournament here is already sent.

Looks like you lost this challenge. Listen to them cow bells when we walk in font of the camera. South end looks pretty bare maybe you big city folks were running late.

Parade of Champions 4,5,6,A 1999 Video
View My Video

There was no bottom tier when set up for wrestling at the Coliseum. There is only the upper tier which describes the problem with the crowds. I always believed 4A took up about half of all seating. The majority of the remainder went to 5A and the rest to 6A.

The figure to refurbish the Coliseum was grossly inflated to help sell the downtown arena at that time. It could have been done for a third of that if desired. The only real issue that would have had to be addressed with the facility were the bathrooms. Even at that, they wouldn't have had to address any ADA issues, most likely, except/unless they did decide to spend some money on it. It would have just kept humming along as was.

Did you see the bid proposals? The $55 million figure included renovation of the Coliseum (Britt Brown Arena) and the three (3) Pavilion buildings.

As part of a settlement of an Americans with Disabilities Act lawsuit, the Sedgwick County Commission was legally bound to improve accesssibility to the building as well as other improvements.

With a $5.5 million cash reserve they should be able to figure something out. The state colleges are tough to use because of all their own activities going on. Try Salina, Topeka, Back to Back weekends or a 3 day event (Friday, Saturday & Sunday) for wrestling in one of those places - spilt sessions like other states use. They could run 6A, 5A, and 4A each division all in one day - If they change the amount of matches allowed in one day. One day weigh-ins - how does that sound? Every year it rotates what class wrestles on Friday, Saturday and Sunday. It could be Thursday, Friday, and Saturday. Each class has its own special day. Some years kids would not miss any classroom time.

Thats not the Parade of Champions as I remember it from 1994 to 2000. This looks like a practice or something. Consolations ended about 3:30 and lots of folks left to get a break, something to eat outside--in the car or go to a restaurant. About 5-5:30 or so the crowd started back in, plus newcomers who attended the finals only. To me, as I remember, the place was packed to the rafters by then. Another clue, the video shows 9 mats. After the consolation 6 mats were removed and reconfigued into a straight line--leaving only one mat per class for just the finals.

Added. The Parade alway entered on the 6A and 5A end of the arena as the video shows. At the 4A end was the tournament admin/computer area on a raised platform--which may have been moved for the winners stand. Also, the wrestlers did not march in over the mats, the marched in on what I call north of the line of mats--maybe better said as to the left of the 4A side, aren main entrance.

All I need to know is this, it was the Taj Mahal of refurbishments, and it was a government estimate (Sedgwick County at that).
I don't beleive they were required to spend any monies on ADA until such time as the existing building was put under reconstruction. All ADA codes would have had to be complied with, following. The Coliseum could be operating today as a stand alone venue, as is, if there wasn't an Intrust.
I hope everyone will come to realize just how great of a facility that place was, particularly for our sport.

I believe that is referred to as the "Parade of Athletes"? That is at the very beginning of day One. The "Parade of Champions" is right before the finals and is as you describe.

I always thought there was a seating split-seats below the entrance tunnels, seats above the entrance tunnels.

Agree about the Parade of Athletes--had forgot that. Also, in the video there is lots of outside light comming through the entrance tunnels--as if the video was shot in the AM. It would have been a lot darker outside in late Feb by the time of the Parade of Champions.

Excellent point. Typical when KSHSAA screws up "we had no idea!!"

Must have been one of those Let's make a Deal game show contracts, where you pick the curtain that your rent amount and terms are behind.........

I think you lose ALL of the lower level seating when you have two wide mats, but you might be able to do 2 wide mats if you only pull out one side of the lower bleachers. Hartman that is. Great facility, I just don't think it would be big enough for 2 classes. One class for sure. Who knows, maybe 5a or 6a would enjoy having a gym all to themselves, like 4a seems to right now. I would still prefer the all inclusive tourney.

And Sporto, I agree on the bill of goods we were sold on the reasons for voting for the arena. I also specifically remember them telling us it would seat something like 18,000, so we could host NCAA tourneys(like I care), but what is the seating, 15,000?

Absolutely it is a ridiculously high estimate. Don't tell me that the whole place would have to be redone, only the handicap accessibility issue would have had to be addressed.

But that is rubbing salt in an old wound of mine. By the way, can you tell I voted against the arena? Wait until the honeymoon is over and it isn't making money anymore.

Lucas, Dodge City did not win Garden did also 5A winner was Goddard and the video you showed was on friday morning and was opening ceremony of state qualifiers not parade of champions. If you listen you here them anounce state qualifiers.

Government Estimate? I can point to 6 LOCAL architectural, engineering and construction firms that worked on the estimates....not once but twice.

As for the "Taj Mahal", what people did not understand about BBA was the extent to which the facility was non-compliant. When you touch a non-compliant structure, by law EVERYTHING has to be corrected to CURRENT codes. Unless you are talking about a historically significant structure there is no wiggle room on that. A 30 year old structure, ANY 30 year old structure was built to different codes and will be by its very nature non-compliant in many reasons. In the case of BBA that meant renovations starting at the parking lot with the approaches to the building and continued well through out the structure.

You also say "Just fix the bathrooms", but as an example of extensive the rennnovations would have been, understand that the space underneath the existing bowl structure was inadequate for compliant bathrooms and there would have to be new facilities constructed OUTSIDE the concourse requiring that the architectural shell be expanded. Factor in that the concourse on BBA is on the "second floor" and in many places you were now extending structure to support the new restroom facilities some 30+ feet.

Please don't think that I am trying to say that you are "stupid" or anything, but many people simply don't understand what that rennovation would have taken. It was a HUGE project.



Nope, the ADA settlement had a strict compliancy date at which time there needed to be a plan to either rennovate, replace or close the structure.



No one is arguing that, at least not me.

What I am saying though is that when given the choice of spending $49m (taking out the $6m for the pavilion renovations that happened afterall) to rennovate that facility or construct a new one, I became (I was not originally) a supporter of replacement.

I am not saying that I support completely the new arena either, I have issues with several things about it. But, it is hard to argue with the success of the arena:

INTRUST BANK ARENA RANKS IN TOP 50 WORLD TICKET SALES
http://www.intrustbankarena.com/news.asp?id=10&pid=285&task=display&pcatid=

Just some additional context,

Chuck

I believe the estimates done by the private entities who attempted to buy/lease BBA were half, at best, of what the county's estimates were. Like any government estimate, you first throw in the gold standard and later reduce back to tin foil.
I won't argue the ADA requirements but I have never seen a federal requirement yet that couldn't be circumvented, and that would include ADA. Yes it would be messy, but it could be done, even with the settlement agreement. Does that mean they should have done so, probably not, the building needed the facelift anyway.
I too was/am a supporter of the new arena, even though I didn't have a vote. BUT, I believed then, and continue to believe there was room in the county for both facilities, for different purposes. That doesn't mean I am not aware of all of the shennanigans that went along, or go along, with passing the bond issue to build Intrust. That includes greatly inflating the reconstruction costs of BBA.

And there is your error. I can conclude from that statement that you have never sat in on a code compliancy review on a design project....especially around the ADA. Not only is there no way to circumvent the ADA, you will find interpretations of a code official well beyond the "letter of the law".

I had a code official once try to make me add ramps the bottom of the 6" sills on french doors that opened from private offices onto a courtyard. That discussion consumed 2 weeks of my life and we had to eventually change the design because he would not budge.

So, if you think that after the county lost an ADA lawsuit there would be sympathetic code officials that would give you wiggle room you are mistaken.



You do realize that the new arena WAS NOT funded through a bond election, but a sunset clause 1 cent county sales tax?

But, you have drawn a conclusion and it is obvious that won't change......no worries.

Chuck

http://www.2-tickets.com/venues/KansasColiseumEnd_all.GIF

Based off where the Camera was sitting 4a coverd from 119 all the way around to 120. The Whole North End was 4a Abilene Filled all of 119 and 117. I might be wrong on this but I think Goodland filled all of 113 Clay Center had a very large Crowd as well. Regardless With the Short rows on the South end 4a fans filled half the Kansas Coliseum.

Another interesting read as it relates to anything related to government........

Obama's Left-Handed Hammer
Editorial, Washington Examiner, 4-14:





Barely 15 percent of all construction-industry workers in the United States are union members, while the remaining 85 percent are nonunion, according to the U.S. Department of Labor's Bureau of Labor Statistics. So why has President Obama signed Executive Order 13502 directing federal agencies taking bids for government construction projects to accept only those from contractors who agree in advance to a project labor agreement that requires a union work force? Obama's new order applies to all federal construction projects with price tags of $25 million or more, and it means all such contracts will only be awarded to companies with unionized work forces.



By eliminating the vast majority of potential bidders on federal construction projects, Obama guarantees two things. First, the projects will cost taxpayers more because union labor is always more expensive. And with mandated PLAs, the cost premium for union contractors will be even greater because fewer bidders always means less competition and higher prices. Second, by guaranteeing unions a bigger stream of federal contracts, Obama is making sure that Big Labor, already among the Democrats' biggest sources of campaign cash, will have even more money to hand out for the 2010 and 2012 elections. You scratch our back with taxpayers dollars gleaned through PLA-based federal construction jobs, and we'll scratch your back with campaign contributions. That's the way it works in Obama's business-as-usual Washington. It's also known in some quarters as "the Chicago Way."



"The Obama administration's policy is a slap in the face to the vast majority of construction workers who have chosen not to unionize," said Mark Mix, president of the National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation."Qualified nonunion contractors whose workers have opted against unionization will be locked out from large-scale construction projects. The true purpose of so-called project labor agreements is simple: To impose unwanted union boss control on workers from the top down."



Another factor helps explain Obama's willingness to sign an executive order that will put millions more tax dollars in union coffers. Mix points out that unions under PLAs typically exact agreements that include requiring contractors to make payments to union pension funds. This is an increasingly urgent issue, as the Washington Examiner's Mark Hemingway has recently detailed in these pages. According to Labor Department filings, the average union pension has only enough money on hand to cover 62 percent of the benefits it has promised to union members. Pension plans with 80 percent funding are considered "endangered" by federal auditors, while those with less than 65 percent funding are put on the "critical" list. With this latest executive order, it's clear that Obama intends to give unions on the critical list a massive dose of federal tax dollars to cure what ails them.

And now back to the original topic of this thread.....

http://blogs.varsitykansas.com/blog/2010...-be/#more-10225

From the Hartman Arena website:

"The building is subterranean (the seating bowl is located underground), which helps keep costs down for heating and cooling, and runs on electricity from a 150' tall wind turbine when there are no events! Recycled materials were used for the steel, insulation, and plastics in the building. New, innovative recycling ideas are in place inside the arena and carpoolers are rewarded with free parking at events."

I like this idea.

This building was built with taxpayers money, then turned over to a private corporation to operate. They make money without the risk of having to fund the building itself. Now, they refuse to take a pay cut, even though it would benefit the city and the people (who own and work in the businesses) who actually paid for the building. The money lost to the city will greatly exceed the difference between what the company charges and what we can afford to pay and still break even. If the city or county ran the building with its own employee's they could work things out like this. So much for public expenditures and private profit. Corporate welfare.

4,5,6A should be put back together, people and familys and wreslters are missing so many of the matches people look forward to and it makes it that much more exciting for the wreslters

But at least with a private company running it, we don't have to hear about it losing money every year.