Wrestlers For Christ Regionals

Looking for wrestlers that would like to lead the prayers sponsored by Wrestlers For Christ. If anyone is interested please contact me via cell phone - 620-203-0608 or email - vandy_44@hotmail.com I will try to keep them updated as to who will be doing what regional. Thanks for all of your cooperation!!!

Michael Vander Linden

CLASS 6A REGIONAL
(February 19)

Olathe-Northwest High School –
Lawrence, Lawrence-Free State, Leavenworth, Olathe-East, Olathe-North, Olathe-Northwest, Olathe-South, Topeka

OP-Blue Valley West High School –
Overland Park-Blue Valley North, Overland Park-Blue Valley Northwest, Overland Park-Blue Valley West, Shawnee Mission-East, Shawnee Mission-North, Shawnee Mission-Northwest, Shawnee Mission-South, Shawnee Mission-West

Wichita-East –
Derby, Junction City, Manhattan, Topeka-Washburn Rural, Wichita-East, Wichita-Heights, Wichita-North, Wichita-Southeast

Wichita-Haysville-Campus –
Dodge City, Garden City, Goddard, Hutchinson, Maize, Wichita-Haysville-Campus, Wichita-Northwest, Wichita-South

CLASS 5A REGIONAL
(February 19)

Arkansas City –
Andover-Central, Andover, Arkansas City, Emporia, Pittsburg, Wichita-Bishop Carroll, Wichita-Kapaun Mt. Carmel, Wichita-West
Hays – Clint Albers & John Hafliger, Managers
Great Bend, Hays, Liberal, McPherson, Newton, Salina-Central, Salina-South, Valley Center

Shawnee-Mill Valley –
Gardner-Edgerton, Kansas City-Harmon, Kansas City-Turner, Overland Park-Blue Valley Southwest, Overland Park-St. Thomas Aquinas, Shawnee-Mill Valley, Shawnee Mission-Bishop Miege, Stilwell-Blue Valley

Topeka-Highland Park –
Kansas City – F.L. Schlagle, Kansas City-Washington, Kansas City – Wyandotte, Lansing, Tecumseh-Shawnee Heights, Topeka-Highland Park, Topeka-Seaman, Topeka-West

CLASS 4A REGIONAL
(February 18-19)

Chanute –
Altamont-Labette County, Chanute, Coffeyville-Field Kindley, Columbus, Fort Scott, Garnett-Anderson County, Independence, Iola, LaCygne-Prairie View, Louisburg, Osawatomie, Ottawa, Paola, Parsons, Spring Hill

Concordia –
Abilene, Buhler, Carbondale-Santa Fe Trail, Chapman, Clay Center-Clay Center Comm., Colby, Concordia, Hiawatha, Lindsborg-Smoky Valley, Nickerson, Russell, Salina-St. John’s Military, Topeka-Hayden, Wamego

Holton –
Atchison, Baldwin, Basehor-Basehor-Linwood, Bonner Springs, De Soto, Eudora, Holton, Hoyt—Royal Valley, Kansas City-Bishop Ward, Kansas City-Piper, Kansas City-Sumner Academy, Lenexa-Saint James Academy, Meriden-Jefferson West, Perry-Lecompton, Tonganoxie

Maize-South –
Andale, Augusta, Cheney, Clearwater, El Dorado, Hesston, Hugoton, Maize-South, Mulvane, Pratt, Rose Hill, Towanda-Circle, Ulysses, Wellington, Winfield

CLASS 3-2-1A REGIONAL
(February 18-19)

Beloit –
Belleville-Republic County, Beloit, Bennington, Brookville-Ell-Saline, Ellsworth, Gypsum-SE of Saline, Herington, Hillsboro, Hoisington, Kesington-Thunder Ridge, Larned, Lincoln, Lyons, Mankato-Rock Hills, Marion, Marysville, Minneapolis, Osborne, Phillipsburg, Riley-Riley County, Salina-Sacred Heart, Scandia-Pike Valley, Smith Center, Sylvan Grove-Sylvan-Lucas Unified

Goodland – Wrestler from Lakin High School
Atwood-Rawlins County, Cimarron, Elkhart, Ellis, Goodland, Hays-Thomas More Prep-Marian, Hill City, Holcomb, Hoxie, Lakin, Leoti-Wichita County, Meade, Montezuma-South Gray, Norton-Norton Comm., Oakley, Oberlin-Decatur Comm., Plainville, Quinter, Scott City-Scott Comm., St. Francis, Stockton, Sublette, Wakeeney-Trego Comm.

Leon-Bluestem – Wrestler from Burlington High School
Anthony—Anthony-Harper-Chaparral, Burden-Central, Burlington, Caney-Caney Valley, Cherryvale, Cottonwood Falls-Chase County, Dexter, Douglass, Erie, Eureka, Fredonia, Frontenac, Garden Plain, Halstead, Howard-West Elk, Leon-Bluestem, Langdon-Fairfield, Moundridge, Rosalia-Flinthills, Sedgwick, Stafford, Sterling, Whitewater-Remington, Wichita-The Independent

Silver Lake – Wrestlers from Silver Lake High School
Atchison-Maur Hill Mount, Burlingame, Council Grove, Easton-Pleasant Ridge, Effingham-Atchison Co. Comm., Elwood, Eskridge-Mission Valley, Highland-Doniphan West, Horton, Leavenworth-Immaculata, Mound City-Jayhawk Linn, Onaga, Oskaloosa, Pleasanton, Richmond-Central Heights, Rossville, Sabetha, Silver Lake, St. George-Rock Creek, St. Marys, Troy, Wabaunsee, Wathena, Wellsville

Holton Regional - Wrestler from St. James Academy High School
Silver Lake Regional - Wrestlers from Silver Lake High School and Sabetha High School

Thanks for agreeing. Hope to get all 16 regionals filled. Last year we had 15 out of 16. Let's see what we can do!

Awesome!

Which Regional was sent packing to the firey depths? LOL

does this take place on school grounds?

Yes! On the mat before each regional. Voluntary and completely legal, thank God.

Amen, Chief! It actually takes place prior to many tourneys and duals, also.

Well, I know I am in the minority here but why does this need to take place and why does it have to happen in the middle of the mats right before the biggest tournament of the year? It may be somewhat legal but that doesn't make it completely right. If you wanted to say a prayer can't you say one to yourself or with a group somewhere besides the middle of the mats so you make sure eveyone sees you? Like I said, I know i am in the minority but why make this a big scene when it could make some wrestler uncomfortable right before they have to perform in the biggest matches of the year. Lets use the mats and gym for wrestling.

Curtis Brown

CB

This was cussed and discussed last year. You wil be cursed if you keep questioning this and white-sheeted night riders with flaming eyes, flinging lighting bolts, alternately singing gospel music or yelling "hell and damnation" will be seen and heard in the vicinity of your home. This all started in Oklahoma where they believe: man never sat foot on the moon, JC never drank wine, and WWF is real.

The God haters return.

I wouldn't say God haters chief. There is a time and a place for everything and on the mats at regionals is not the place or time to hold a prayer meeting. How would you feel if muslims prayed to Allah during a tournament or someone had a wicken ceremony, maybe we can get some devil worshipers to hold a satanic ritual. Not everyone believes what you believe, If you want to pray thats fine but do not make a public spectacle out of it.

rassler,

Contrarian's post is hate. Muslims can line up anywhere they want. Devil worshipers are recluses so you are reaching with that example. Just as players in the NFL pray on the field, wrestlers can pray on the mat. Lighten up and be thankful that God gives grace to even Contrarian.

If people don't pray, fine. They shouldn't feel anymore awkward watching me pray than I feel watching them not pray. Its called freedom of religion. I choose to pray. If you choose not to, so be it.

Matthew 6:5-6: "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men....when thou prayest, enter into thy closet and when thou has shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret...."

I just feel that if you want to pray fine but don't make a public spectacle out of it like you are doing, read matthew and you will find out that Jesus did not want this to happen

This is how Jesus prayed

How did Jesus Pray:
The Gospels contain many references to Jesus praying, including:

Matthew 14:23: Jesus went up on the mountain by himself to pray.
Matthew 26:36-44: Jesus went with three disciples, left them behind and went further to pray alone. This is the well known passage in which his disciples fell asleep at Gethsemane, just before Jesus' arrest and execution.
Mark 1:35: Jesus is went to a solitary place to pray.
Luke 3:21: This passage describes how Jesus was baptized and was in prayer when the Holy Ghost descended. Unfortunately, this passage does not describe how and where Jesus was praying.
Luke 5:16: Jesus is described as often going to lonely places to pray by himself
Luke 6:12: Jesus withdrew to a mountainside to pray. Verse 13 implies that he was alone at the time.
Luke 9:19: Jesus was praying alone, with his disciples in the vicinity.
Luke 22:41-43: Jesus withdrew from his disciples "about a stone's throw" to pray by himself.
John 16, 17: These chapters are ambiguous about the circumstances of Jesus' prayer just before his arrest. He first talked to his disciples; then he prayed, then he went with his disciples across the Kidron valley. It is not clear where the disciples were situated when Jesus prayed. But if he was consistent with the pattern described in other passages, he would have left the disciples behind, and prayed in private.

It would appear that Jesus engaged in private prayer, away from other people. His actions might be interpreted as showing his disapproval of public prayer.

Hard to argue direct scripture!

CB See the posts after mine. I warned you. Beware of the night riders!!

Did you watch WWF last week on pay per view?????

luckily for all this is America and all have the right to chose, how and where they pray. If I chose not to listen, then so be it. I sure am glad that our veterans fought so people can even question this. Thank You All. God Bless.

Just as players in the NFL pray on the field, wrestlers can pray on the mat.


As far as I knew, NFL players weren't competing on school property.

That changes nothing. It's legal.

Chief,
I gave you direct scripture telling you why we should not have a public prayer meeting on the mats at regionals, why no response?

Now this is discussion! Let me clear you up on what the bible says about corporate prayer. In fact, when the church is established in the book of Acts, the people simply gather every single day for fellowship, prayer, the breaking of bread and the instruction in the Apostles’ doctrine. And they gather everywhere. Yes, they gather in the temple and they gather in homes. And they gather wherever they meet because worship is decentralized in the establishment of the New Covenant. Every place becomes a sanctuary. Every place becomes a place of worship. Read the book of Acts and then decide what scripture says about public prayer.

Additional info for you rassler...

Matthew 18:19 - 20, "Again I say to you, that if two of you shall agree on the earth concerning any matter, whatsoever it may be that they shall ask, it shall come to them from my Father who is in the heavens. For where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them."

Acts 2:1 - 2 we read a very famous account of corporate prayer and its powerful result, "And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting."

Acts 4:24 - 32 gives another powerful account of how effective corporate prayer is.

Ephesians 6:18:
"Pray at all times - on every occasion, in every season - in the Spirit, with all [manner of] prayer and entreaty ..."

I have read the book of acts and what you describe is true, the early christians gathered wherever they could to pray and worship. But that is not what is happening here.

Nothing could be clearer than the following verses:

Matthew 6:5 - 7

5. And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

Jesus says you must definitely not pray as the hypocrites pray.

6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
Here Jesus says when thou prayest, you must pray this way:
(1) enter into thy closet.
(2) shut the door.
(3) pray to thy Father which is in secret.
(4) use not vain repetitions.

(Prayer must be in private, not in front of other people.
Do not repeat things over and over again in prayer)
An attribute of a true Christian is: He only prays in private, never in public

Rassler,

The web site that you are cut and pasting from is called religioustolerance.org. It is primarily an atheist web site.

It doesn't matter what web site I found my information from, I originally learned this passage at the good old southern baptist church, I did not have a bible with me so I googled this verse and that is what I came up with. It still goes against what you are advocating, Jesus did not want his followers praying on the street corners like the hypocrites, a true follower of jesus prays in private because they don't need anyone to see or hear them pray, they don't need to put on a show at a public event, all they need is a private place to pray to their god just as the bible teaches.

Rassler,

Myself and 4 others had a Radio Show bible study on KMBZ for 10 years. Many times we addressed that passage. Christ is dealing with a particular practice of the Pharisees. They made a big show of praying so that everyone would know just how spiritual they were. They were proud and in their prayers so that others would see them. That is, they took what should have been their private prayer life and made a public show of it so that others would be amazed at their spirituality. This is like those today to who continually brag on how much time they spend in prayer. Christ was teaching us that our personal prayer life is not to be displayed in public. He was not teaching that there was never an occasion for public prayer.

Public prayer is common in the Old Testament. Solomon prayed at the dedication of the temple (1Kings 8:22-23) and Solomon stood before the altar of the LORD in the presence of all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands toward heaven: and he said, LORD God of Israel, there is no God like thee, in heaven above, or on earth beneath, who keepest covenant and mercy with thy servants that walk before thee with all their heart:

Elijah prayed publicly on Mt. Carmel (1Kings 17:36-37)

Ezra prayed before "a very great congregation of men and women and children" (Ezra 10:1) Now when Ezra had prayed, and when he had confessed, weeping and casting himself down before the house of God, there assembled unto him out of Israel a very great congregation of men and women and children: for the people wept very sore.

We continue to see public prayer practiced in the New Testament even after the teaching of Matthew 6:6.

Christ prayed publicly before He raised Lazarus from the dead (John 11:41-42) "Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me."

Paul kneeled and prayed with the Ephesian elders before he left them (Acts 20:36) "And when he had thus spoken, he kneeled down, and prayed with them all."

And although we receive few clear statements about the order of worship in the early churches, an important piece of information is found in 1 Corinthians 14:15-16.

1Corinthians 14:15-16. "What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

If you carefully read this passage, you will see that Paul stresses the importance of praying with understanding so that those who occupy the room of the unlearned can say Amen at the giving of thanks. This passage makes sense only in the context of public prayer. If no one is listening, then how could anyone say Amen? Other statements hint at the presence of public prayer in the early churches, but this one clearly shows that it was practiced.

One thing that might help you is to understand that the purposes of public prayer are a bit different from those of private prayer. In private prayer, we pour our heart out to God and tell Him all. We do not need to be concerned about sentence structure or form in any way. Just talk to God. However, in public prayer, we are leading, as we speak of someone "leading in prayer" we are leading others to look on God. We are directing the attention of others to the Lord and helping them rely on Him at this time.

Thats fine but I don't think a public event is the place to hold a prayer meeting in the middle of the mat. If you want a prayer meeting fine announce that everyone interested in a prayer meet in a corner of the gym and have at it. Butr it does not need to be in the middle of the gym in front of all people from different faiths, that is rude and intolerant not everyone believs what you believe, and it is wrong to stoip the show at regionals to put on a show and force everyone to sit through your prayer to your god it is wrong.

Gee...all those years of my daddy being a Baptist preacher and leading public prayers, and me now going to a Baptist church and have public, corporate prayers & (gasp) I included myself in the "public display of praying with the wrestlers" in a previous Regional, and if someone is willing to lead it @ the 4A Maize South Regional Friday, I'll join in with the wrestlers again!!!

Guess I'm going to hell then, since I pray in public, huh?

It happened last year and nothing was stopped. It was on a mat but not in the center. It was a small group at our regional of about 25 wrestlers. We prayed for an injury free day for ALL wrestlers. Not one person showed disapproval. We were not challenging other religions, we were just practicing ours.

I am excited about all the talk about prayer! Amazing




Maybe if more students/athletes prayed before each event- thanked God for the ability to participate in this great sport, asking that their actions on and off the mat would give God glory, and that all would be protected from injury.....

....there would be fewer examples of all of the other stuff that happens at wrestling tournaments?


I told my daughter about this conversation: Lizzy said, "Wow two of my favorite things- Prayer and wrestling"

so what your trying to say is that if you don't pray to your god (the Christan god im assuming) is your son/yourself is going to be injured at the tournament while wrestling?

So to stop injuries we must pray to god and hope he doesn't smite us for our insolence?

Well if prayer could do all that and protect you that well why do we pay for insurance?

I completely agree with rassler. The mats before the tournament are not the time or place to have a prayer meeting.

But if you must have a prayer meeting you should cover all religions that may be at the tournament.

So lets just start all regional tournaments an hour late so the Christans, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, Scientologists, Rastafarian's, and who ever else would like to pray to their god get five min each per religion so that they can have a showcase for their god too.

Unless of course some religion were opt out of this privilege because the teachings in their scriptures taught them to be humble....

P.S. Jesus taught us to be humble. Remember "The meek shall inherit the Earth"?

Flubber? That's what you chose for your first post? Wow. This prayer will not hold up anything. It will be done before the scheduled start time. MY GOD, as rassler called Him, is not a vengeful God. No one is going to get hurt because they didn't pray. We got your back. We will pray for everybody, so don't worry. I am not angry about you not praying. Why are you so upset about freeminded people praying?

Ok if you do not know who I am, I am one of the 4 co-creators of Wrestlers 4 Christ, along with my dad Harry, Doug V and obviously Micheal.

In response to everything posted before the last comment (flubber): Honestly, this group was created for those who wanted to say a little, short pre-match prayer. We decided to hold it in the center of the mat and the day we started, we have not had one single problem with it. I know it may be a coincidence, but 2 years ago at Regionals when we started this thing, there were zero injuries through our Regional and through the 321a State Tournament. Correct me if I'm wrong but that seems pretty powerful to me. I'm not trying to make a believer out of any of you by stating that, but look at me with a straight face and tell me that isn't one of the coolest things you've ever heard of in sports. 1000's of matches and not one single injury?

This is a student-athlete led prayer. It does not push someone to go out and pray for something they may not believe in.

Last thing and I'll let ya guys keep debatin about it. While I spoke the prayer at most, if not every meet we competed in, the entire gym, no matter what the people were doing and no matter what was on there mind, those people/wrestlers/officials/ and even the stands filled with parents would get silent and you could hear either my voice or micheals throughout the entire gym. Even if you don't agree with it, you got to admit it is a very powerful and very very cool event to spectate and take part of.

Thanks guys and Hope soon everyone can just appreciate what we are doing.

Everyone good luck this weekend and God Bless

Brett LaMar

This is awesome! We think this is a wonderful idea for the group prayer before Regionals start! To God be the glory! Count our family in in support of this!

Blaine & Lori Salmans

And also thanks Chief for the good words of wisdom and all the supporters out there

Firehawk,

You do have a vengeful god

Deuteronomy 32:35

35 To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste

Romans 12:19

19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Hebrews 10:30

30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people

Please read your bible before making false statements on here and trying to pass them off as fact

I'm still having a hard time understanding why some people are still trying to put down HIGH SCHOOL WRESTLERS who believe strongly in their faith. Rassler, no one is forcing you to take part in it. No one trying to convert you. No one is making a public scene and flaunting their religion. They are doing it because they believe it helps keep kids safe, not because they think they are better than anyone else. Flubber, you took what chief and back in the day said and completely twisted it and tried to make what Wrestlers for Christ is doing seem bad. Again this was started by HIGH SCHOOL WRESTLERS, instead of trying to put them down and scare them away (which will never happen no matter what you say about them or what they do) why don't you either leave them alone or tell them they have a lot of courage to go out and pray in front of an entire crowd of people because if you haven't ever done it before its not as easy as it looks.

rassler, all i know is that it's good that we are in America. or else some radical dictator would order you be shot in the head in front of an entire city. keep that in mind when you, continue to have these discussions. it is your right to do as you see fit. thank God. good day.

While you are out there praying on the mat, please say a little prayer for our soldiers, sailors, marines and air force personnel who are fighting for their lives overseas. They are the ones who are ensuring that we can openly discuss our differences at home.

Regardless of your religious preference, if you live here in the United States, you should appreciate the sacrifices that these men and women give to protect our rights. Whatever your religion, these all volunteer military personnel are the ones that are walking in the valley of the shadow of death.

Rassler, my name is not firehawk. It is Larry Woltje, just as it says on the bottom of all my posts. Myself and others have fought for this great country so that you can have your opinion. Let me have mine.

Quagmire

It is fine to have a prayer meeting, have a private meeting in the corner of the gym for everyone interested in attending.I am not trying to put them down it's just that this is america so are we going to give equal time time to the muslims, hindus, scientologists,wickens etc... If we did that the same people advocating this would be up in arms saying we can't do that this is a christian country, but the constitution guarantees freedom of religion, that is all religions, this is just a slippery slope we are on and eventually maybe we can start all the regional tournaments an hour late to give all religions their chance for public prayer. Or maybe lets mandate prayer for all wrestlers led by a hindu priest or maybe just the holy one chief renegade.

And what percentage of these wrestlers would you estimate to be in the Hindu, Muslims, etc...categories? A very, very small percentage I would have to guess. But we tend to cater to the minority anymore so as to not offend anybody!

Rassler just to clear this up before I log off for the night,

All prayers that are held on behalf of Wrestlers 4 Christ are held before competition begins. Not one tournament in Wrestlers 4 Christ history has been held up because of the meeting in the center of the mat. If you are one of those people who want to come and listen to what the prayer leader wants to say, and wants to hold a group prayer in the name of God, then we would love for you to join us. And if you want to eat your donut and drink your coffee or just be satisfied in your seat before the big day begins then so be it. Either way its not a mandatory place of prayer. Its by choice. We aren't shutting down or discouraging any other religion to pray, they can as well. That'd be great. We may not have the exact same beliefs but if your one of those people who have never heard our prayer that we do say in those groups, then I'd really really suggest for you to listen to what we say. You may come to like it, and change your mind about some of the things your posting, and if you decide not to then honestly its gonna keep happening. I'm sorry but again this is by choice. Listen to the people, HIGH SCHOOLERS are doing this. Kind of inspiration for a lot of people.

And thank you for that post Mr. Girard. I am sure that topic can fit in very easily throughout the prayer. Thanks again and God Bless.

Our great constitution requires us to protect the rights not cater to the minority, How does praying in a corner versus in the middle of the mat infringe on your rights, that way people would not be attending purely from peer pressure but rather true belief

“You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden; nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven. Matthew 5:14-16

Chief, I do not believe Contrarian's post was hateful. Yes, it was mocking of some in particular, but it did not offend me (and I consider myself a Christian, maybe not a good one) and it was very scarcastic and the last line was funny. And, Headup, if we had a radical dictator who would get shot would depend upon the beliefs of the dictator, it might not be rassler. Point is, this is a noble idea, and very worthwhile. My son will participate, because hs has no free will. I pay the bills and I say so. But, it would be nice if it was done as some on here have suggested. In a corner so those who have free will do not feel any peer presure to participate. And, I miss the Church on the Mat that Furches use to do at Sunday tourneys. It makes me feel less guilty. But, shouldn't I really be in Church. Interesting questions for us to answer as individuals.

Im just gonna sacrifice my virgin goat behind the school now, so nobody is offended.

Wow this got out of control. No one was saying becasue you pray in public you hate god. No one said you should look down on high school wrestlers who pray. All I wanted to point out is to everyone who is in the middle of the mats praying, try to consider how those high school wrestlers feel that choose not to join in. I know it is hard to look past yourself but put yourself in the shoes of one of those wrestlers not in the center. Imagine the possible taunting and ridicule they may receive for being different and to recieve this right before the biggest tournament of the year? I understand the point that there are those who faught for our rights and I also understand that the prayer may be legal, but soldiers faught for the rights of everyone not just the majority and just becasue something is believed to be legal doesn't make it right.

well said cb

They did this at Eureka and my sons were up in the stands and missed it. I dont recall them getting taunted or ridiculed by anyone. I dont believe any wrestler would get taunted or ridiculed anyway for not participating. Thats a ridiculus statement.

I agree with you 100 percent. When they play the Star Spangled Banner, some people don't remove their hats, some don't put their hand across their chest, and some just continue to do whatever it is they were doing before the start of the song.

If you jump their behinds for not doing those things, then you don't understand the freedoms that we are provided. As long as they don't forget that the freedoms that they are provided have cost someone else, not only their freedom, but their life.

For the second year in a row, we have been criticized for the efforts we make on connecting Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and wrestling. Yet, today Wrestlers For Christ continues to grow and is now stronger than ever due to supporters that have taken roles to further these efforts. Let me be the first to tell you, being criticized for something you truly believe in with all of your heart is amazing. If Wrestlers For Christ were easy to accomplish, there probably would not be a group. However, it is the fact that we live in a world of selfishness, doubt, and continuous sin, from EVERYONE that lives on this Earth, but one. That is the basis behind MY faith.

Many, many scriptures have been used in a way to show that Wrestlers For Christ is used in a negative way. However, I might add that these same tactics were used by the devil against Jesus Christ himself. However, Jesus responds that He is called by other scriptures to do the opposite.

Am I saying that you are the devil and that we are Jesus? Absolutely not! However, I am saying that we all have callings in our lives to glorify God. This just happens to be one of mine.

Matthew 6:5-6 talks about praying in the secret and that those that pray in public in front of other men are hypocrites.

However, later in Matthew gives another message. Matthew 28:19 says “Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.” He calls a select few to go out and put their faith in action and in word; a bold statement to the entire world.

I look back to the reasons we started Wrestlers For Christ. Brett and I had been leading our individual teams in prayer for years. When we got put together for the same tournament, through our fathers Harry and Doug, we decided to extend an invitation to not only each other, but the entire wrestling community. This is in no way to brag about Brett and I, but to lead a prayer, even in just your own team, is a hard thing to do. For the wrestlers that didn’t have a team leader to do this but still wanted to participate in an act like this, Wrestlers For Christ is their opportunity.

Why do we do it in the center of the mat? Back in the Day used an excellent verse from Matthew 5:14-16. I also look at Colossians 3:23 “Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men.”

There is no disrespect for anyone of other religion or no religion, etc. However, I feel that the center of the mat is the easiest place for those that did not know we were doing the prayer to see us and another reason is, in my views, God should be at the center of everything I do; Wrestlers For Christ is absolutely no different. If you believe strongly in what you believe, I don’t think there will be any peer pressure to a prayer that will be on the mat. However, if you are unsure and feel peer pressure because everyone else is doing, then what is such a bad idea of seeing how a prayer might work?

As to the statements made about other religions having time to make their prayers in the center of the mats? Yes! Yes! Yes! If there are wrestlers who follow that faith who feel that they should pray like Wrestlers For Christ; by all means do it. There has never been anything against it and there will not be if it happens.

I hope those opposed to our prayers at Regionals realize that these prayers have been occurring at every tournament possible for the past two years. Kids, Middle school, Junior Varsity, Varsity, Duals. There has been little to no opposition to any of these tournaments. I simply made the request to anybody interested to contact me. Wrestlers For Christ will never force any athlete to do anything they don’t want; praying or leading a prayer. USAWKS Forums are the easiest way to reach out to high school wrestlers who could be leaders.

I apologize for the length of the reply but I hope to have answered any questions posed. If not, send me a PM and I will answer anything you ask.

Wrestlers For Christ has been a questioned group for almost a year now, and yet we have hundreds of kids gathering each weekend to give praise to God in Heaven. If you do not like this, I am sorry you feel this way. Wrestlers For Christ meets all legal obligations and the leaders feel as though all factors on how we give our God glory is within reason.

Thank You, Good Luck these next two weekends, and God Bless
Co-Founder of Wrestlers For Christ – Michael Vander Linden

CB. This is exactly what happened last year on this same subject. Mostly the same posters with the same comments---or they cut and pasted last year's comments. You, rassler and me are now officially considered to be non patriot-tratitorous, communist heathens for your questions and comments.

Chief,

In the past I have sometimes questioned your rankings (when my wrestlers were taken out lol) but after reading all of this I have a new found respect for you and your heart for Christ. My name on here speaks for itself so I will keep this short.

It seems that people are so worried about praying on school grounds when that is one of the main places we need to be praying in, for and over. Our country was founded on Biblical word and even before Washington implemented the infantry into the military, he implemented the Chaplain. SOME of our leaders wanted to take “religion” out of schools (by the way Jesus didn’t come to give religion but to restore relationships with God. Religion is man made) when most of the creeds that children recite in schools mentions God in it like “one nation, under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all”. Oh and the “under God” part wasn’t put in until Pres. Lincoln demanded it during his time in office.

We turn the other way so many times when our wrestlers make bad choices or are a part of things that are not so positive and now that they have a chance to be around something that could literally save their lives, some people are up in arms about it. Now I know the word of God well but I’m trying to have you non supporters look at it from a different perspective. And I really don’t care if you quote the Bible or not because even the devil knows the word of God. God searches our hearts so even when you gather to pray publically, if you are doing it with a whole heart, he will honor that.

You never know what injuries and crazy things praying over ALL the wrestlers, coaches, fans, parents, refs, and workers could stop. There is all kind of things that going on during and around wrestling tournaments. But if those involved are COVERED IN THE BLOOD OF JESUS then “no weapons formed against us shall prosper”. One final thought, Mathew 10:33 says “he that disowns me in front of men, I will disown in front of my father in Heaven”. What will he say about YOU?

Sorry, that wasn’t short at all, but I love talking about my Lord and Savior!!!

I am not personally opposed to prayer however, that being said, I have to wonder how "the separation of church and state" comes into play here?. I think as someone else stated earlier this is a slippery slope. The prayer takes place on public school grounds? I'm pretty sure it is unconstitutional for public school policy to allow student led prayer. Maybe because this is perceived as voluntary prayer presented and led by students without official permission, this is legal. I really don't know. Maybe just having it in a corner where anyone can attend who wants to, instead of in the middle where everyone has to hear it is a better idea. Just some thoughts.

Whether people are for the prayer or against the prayer at regionals there is something great happening here. Wrestlers for christ is doing a great thing. No matter whether you are for this or against this there is people talking about god and writing bible verses on the talk forums for hundreds of people to read, I for one think its great, but thats my opinion, these kids are not saying their prayers over the loud speaker, so they are not pushing the prayers on anyone. so no matter where they meet in the gym you can choose to be apart of it or you can choose not to be. If you don't want to hear these prayers don't go by where they are gathering. I really don't think it matters whether its on the east, west, north, or south side of the gym or if its in the middle, people will still be able to see the kids having prayer and choose to either be a part of it or not to be a part of it. Good luck to everyone this weekend and God Bless
Joey Clark

Oh for crying out loud. I coached four years at Immaculata and one at Maur Hill. In our team huddle before each tournament round and dual meet, we said a breif prayer. At every home meet (and every home sporting event) we had a prayer. I'm not Catholic, but I respected that and so did everyone else that was not. There is nothing wrong with this, other than the people who are so uncomfortable with prayer that they're making an issue out of it.

It is not in the middle of the mat so that everyone has to hear.
Its stated above by Michael Vanderlinden.

So here is a question for the people opposed to the prayer. I have seen numerous kids do the "reflective knee" as I call it to take a moment before the match and maybe gather their thoughts or what not (Looks like a prayer to me). Should the officials ding them for stalling or for being Christians in public?

I am not opposed to prayer at a HS wretling tournament--if it is voluntary and not intrusive. What I and several others question is the organization, or attempt to organize, a public prayer in and on a public school and activity. Can a student get up in class and organize/lead a prayer; can a eacher or coach organize a prayer in a class or at a school sponsored activity. Don't think so!!

What can a school do: I think they can or should be able to set aside an announced time and private place where students, and faculty, can have private thoughts, meditate, even prayer. And, I think they can present nonreligous classes on the academic study of religions (NOTICE SAID RELIGIONS---NOT JUST ONE RELIGION). What could such classes teach? How aboput the comparative studies, the history and philosophy of World religions, the conficts between World religions, the demographics of World religions, etc. etc. This would not include denominational religious studies or services--those are conducted in the church!!

Mark 8:38 If anyone is ashamed of me and my message in these adulterous and sinful days, the Son of Man will be ashamed of that person when he returns in the glory of his Father with the holy angels."

Sorry Enetophobic was not a reply to your post I was just posting the Scripture.

I, too, think something great is happening here. It is a testament to these wrestlers' and adults' faith that they are willing to step out there for all to see. Thanks so much, Brett and Michael for taking the time and effort to organize this. I've no doubt my son, of his own free will, will be there.

To gymmom, the First Amendment reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ...." It doesn't say we can't pray on public school or government grounds, only that the government can't force you to.

Darlene Wolf

Students do not shed their constitutional rights when they enter the school house gate. These “constitutional rights” include a student’s right to pray alone or in groups, as long as they are not disruptive to the school environment. The subjectivity of "disruptive" is not determined by Contrarian.

Pray on kids. Include Contrarian in your prayer!

Don't apologize to me, I am for freedom of press...thus freedom of religion is right up there too.

Don't mean to post on back to back here, but do schools no longer do the "Pray at the Pole?"

Do not see the need to quote scripture!!!

Fred Phelps and his group of Christian nuts from Topeka quote scripture when they picket and demonstrate at the funerals of our service people killed in combat. Muslim radicals quote scripture as they blow themselve and others into kingdom come!! The nuts in Salem mass sang gospels and quoted scripture while the burned the witches. Catholic priests, I think Jesuits, conducted the Inquisition (torture and death) in Spain.

Enough said on the subject.

Dude. Come on. Just because nut cases quote scripture, you take the stance that nobody should? Are you serious?

While these comments have a lot to say about prayer, the instructions of it's author are for a kind of prayer that has nothing to do with public displays: "And when you pray" Jesus of Nazareth said, "do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men, I tell you the truth; they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you"
(Matthew 6:5-6)

You better believe I am. A feverent Christian, if not controlled by law, would kill a non Christian believer/heathen as quick as a Jihadist bomber. I believe thru history more people have been killed for religious reasons than for all other reasons combined!!! Probably have to include ethnic conflicts/genocide in those numbers--These are normally based in religion and conflicts between religion.

A "feverent Christian? Bill, you are misrepresenting Christians. We are called to be a light in the world. To tell unbelievers about the saving grace of Jesus Christ. For you to say that Christians would kill an unbeliever if not for the law, shows your ignorance of what the bible says.

I used to pray before every math test - I think God said, "Mark you have to study!"

But in fact a student can pray in class. A student can organize a bible study on campus, a student can organize a prayer room. At GEHS there is a prayer room every wednesday morning at 7:00- 8 am It is student led and organized.

The number of student led prayer groups across kansas and the country is exploding.

You are wrong here: Communists/facist governments have killed far more people than any religious movement in history.

Great! But as you said--it is in a designated space and at a designated time.

there are no laws being broken here. all you folks who are concerned about this need to do is ignore it. i promise your day won't be affected in any way. we can not restrict these young men, from organizing this, that would be against the law. God Bless, Good Luck, and Have a Great Day.

DUDE!!!! You need to go read some history. I will give you a hint----start way way way back before 1919. Muslim-Hindu conflicts in India in the 40s and 50s probably killed as many as Communism or Facism--these confilict led to the division of India into India (Hindu), Muslim Pakistan and Bangladesh.

Exactly. Before regionals and on the mat.

As is evident by the comments included in this thread, that there are those who resent and disapprove of those who pray in public; those who feel uncomfortable with public prayer; and those who wholly support the notion of public prayer. That seems pretty strait-forward. Religious or not, people are looking for things they can cling to, hoping to gain meaning, purpose, hope and security. That ultimate security comes from somewhere else. It isn't from public displays of prayer, investments, security cameras or things you buy. Such things are the sounds of insecurity.

“You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden; nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven. Matthew 5:14-16

We are not ashamed of the Gospel! The insecurity lies in an unbelievers heart. Isaiah 57.

It appears that the prayer is possibly student led but not student organized as evident by the begining of this topic. Also, the prayer takes place in public schools on school purchased mats. As a taxpayer, in my opinion I find it difficult to take that there are people who are organizing religous activities on public school grounds funded by taxpayers money. Furhtermore, you do lose some of your rights when you enter a school. An example is that you cannot where certain clothing in school that may be too revealing or have certain words on it. All I asked is that maybe you should put yourself in someone else's shoes before organizing this. I have not seen anyone address this. Again, even if you are allowed to do this, is it right? Lets step on some people just to make sure our wants are met. I don't think this is right but like I said, obviously I am in the majority and this will take place on Friday. Just think about others who may not share the same views as you before conducting the prayer.

Ditto and Amen CB!!!

And some wonder why religious subjects should be forbidden on this forum!

It's a good time for all. Great conversation, great wrestling! It's regional time. Let's all enjoy it!

It amazes me some people would criticize students who take the initiative and do something positive rather than negative and they choose not to criticize those that choose to abstain from participation. Seems like the qualities we want all of our kids to have.

How many people died under Stalin - Under Chairman Mao - under the Kremer Ruge in Cambodia?. They top the all time lists for murder. All atheist governments.

As I see it...after having witnessed it at many, many tournaments, Jr High and High School. It is like a very impromptu moment. It is not announced nor is any one asked to come to the center of the mat. A moment of silence is not requested and if you are not aware of what is going on and you are more than 20ft away from the circle..then you can not tell what is being said. At times I have wished I were there to join them in the center of the mat. Yes, it is true the gym becomes quiet at this time. But while they say thier prayer...I say a silent prayer of my own and continue to be impressed by our young wrestlers! I do not encourage my son or his team mates to join...but they do, tournament after tournament. They do this of thier own accord.
If you do not wish to watch and if it offends you for some reason...just make sure to go to the concession stand or to the bathroom or turn your back to the mat, read a book, listen to your ipod, text somebody..you can just ignore it.
Those of us who enjoy the moment don't make a big deal of it..we just let it be. Please do the same.

Kim Lovvorn

Just some ideas to ponder...:

http://www.contenderministries.org/articles/separationmyth.php

http://www.schoolprayerinamerica.info/1separationchurchstate.html

and finally, for those that would rather watch something than read:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlfEdJNn15E

Once again, I'll be participating with the prayer @ the 4A Maize South Regional, if there's brave enough wrestlers to "host" it!

Am I Christian?-Yes. Do I approve of this?-No, but I dont care. But guess what I don't care when or where it happens. I am going to our Regional to watch great wrestling and that's all not people praying on the middle of the mat but just wrestling. I could care less how people express their religion let them do what they feel is right. I am Christian but have not been to church in over 4 years and really don't care. If you have a problem with this like I do just do what I will do. IGNORE IT! I don't care what you do read a book, carry on a conversation, or listen to your iPod. I usually don't pay attention to anything before tournaments anyways (except the National Anthem cause I do love America and appreciate the people who fight for America). I will have my iPod blaring and reading my book. I don't have a problem with as long as they don't everyone in the gym be silent for their needs it's fine by me. Just sit back and wait for the wrestling because this should be a good weekend for the sport of Kansas Wrestling

Do you need help with the Regional in Beloit for 3a because i will be willing to help if you need it!

Give me a break! I am proud that my boys and I are Christians and aren't afraid to show it in front of everybody. Praise be to God for all of our blessings! by the way..Don't you mean you are in the "minority" not "majority"! Maybe you should learn how to spell homophone words like when you meant to say "wear" and you said "where".

An interesting position. If you don't mind, let me ask you two questions.

1. Are you at a place in your spiritual life that if you died today, you know that you would go to heaven?

2. If you did die today and stood before God and He asked you, "Why should I let you in my heaven", what would you say?

What I should have used a different phrase instead of "really don't care" as I was in my writing zone and it just goes...with that said even though I have not been to church in 4 years does not mean I don't know who died for my sins and I do pray from time to time and not in public and take part in our Christian Challenge here at WU and not going to church is something I have been debating with myself to go to. I thank God everyday I wake up and thank him for giving me another day to live. As to both of your questions I am a young man who has yet to live his life to fullest and if God willing ask me those questions 50 years from now and I might be able to give you a better answer

Or maybe you could put your self in the students that are leading the prayer. Think about their intentions. Not harmful to anyone at all. I challenge anyone who is at a regional this weekend to ask any of the students that did not participate in the prayer if they are offended in anyway.

[This article was originally published in Free Inquiry, summer 1990.]

When you think of saints, you envision stained-glass pictures of piety. But the truth can be horribly different. Consider Pope Pius V:

When he was Grand Inquisitor, he sent Catholic troops to kill 2,000 Waldensian Protestants in Calabria in southern Italy.

After becoming pope, he sent Catholic troops to kill Huguenot Protestants in France. He ordered the commander to execute every prisoner taken.

Pius also launched the final crusade against the Muslims, sending a Christian naval armada to slaughter thousands in the Battle of Lepanto in 1571.

And he intensified the Roman Inquisition, torturing and burning Catholics whose beliefs varied from official dogma.

After his death, he was canonized a saint. He still is venerated by the church.
It is as if Adolf Hitler were elevated to sainthood.

Or consider Saint Dominic, the king of torture. He founded the Dominican order, whose priests were judges of the Inquisition. They presided while screaming victims were twisted and ripped on fiendish pain machines until they confessed to thinking unorthodox thoughts. Then the Dominicans led the broken "heretics" in grand processions to the stake.

The priests also tortured thousands of women into confessing they were witches who had sex with Satan, changed themselves into animals, flew through the sky, caused storms, and the like. The "witches" also were burned for their confessions.

Or consider Saint Cyril, whose monks and followers beat to death the great woman scientist, Hypatia, director of the Alexandria Library, for her scientific approach to nature.

Or Saint Pedro Arbries, a Spanish inquisitor who tortured and burned former Jews for harboring their old beliefs. An ex-Jew assassinated him, and he was canonized as a martyr.

I was a newspaper church columnist for many years. Endlessly, I heard ministers proclaim that religion instills love and compassion in believers. It's a universal message. Meanwhile, back at the paper, our headlines said:

"Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs Massacre Each Other in India"
"Protestant Gunmen Kill Catholics in Belfast, and Vice Versa"
"Shi'ites in Iran Hang Baha'i Teens Who Won't Convert"
"Christian Snipers Pin Down Muslim Machine-Gunners in Beirut"
"Hands and Feet Chopped Off Under Islamic Law in Sudan"

Politicians always call religion a mighty force for good. President Reagan labeled it "the bedrock of moral order." They say it builds brotherhood.

But Christians killed 3 million Jews during Europe's centuries of religious persecution, before Hitler secularized the process.

And the Reformation wars pitted Catholics and Protestants in a ghastly century of slaughter.

And the Third World today still sufferes bloodbaths caused by religious tribalism.

There's a tinge of the Twilight Zone in the constant declarations that religion creates love, when opposite results are everywhere.

Did religion make Saint Pius V loving as he killed Waldensians, Huguenots, Muslims and nonconforming Catholics?

Did it make the Ayatollah Khomeini compassionate as he ordered the hanging of Baha'is and demanded the assassination of a "blaspheming" British writer?
Did it make the Aztecs affectionate as they sacrificed and skinned maidens to appease a feathered serpent god?

Did it make brotherhood in Lebanon, where religious tribes wreak endless warfare?

Religion always is hailed as the cure for the world's evils. But, too often, it's the problem, not the solution.

"Murder in the Name of Religion" is copyright © 1990 by James A. Haught. All rights reserved.
The electronic version is copyright © 1997 by Internet Infidels with the written permission of James A. Haught. All rights reserved.


Top of Page

Share/Save/Bookmark

Here are just a few examples of great christians killing in gods name

Chief:

Please do not interpret my comments as disparaging and/or disrespectful of your impressive faith and/or religious beliefs. Your comments and scriptural quotes are compelling and forceful in support of public prayer.

I appreciate the heartfelt answer. To be clear, good intentions and good deeds won't save anyone. I would encourage you though to find a bible teaching, bible believing church that you can stay in God's word and learn from the only truth written to mankind. Think about those questions. We are all one hearbeat away from eternity, regardless of age. If you ever want to talk about what scripture says, you can PM, text or call me at 913-484-3624. Blessings to you!

No problems. I have appreciated many points you've made on the forums. It's all good conversation.

As far as I can tell we have a group of students gathering to pray. It is a big jump to say they are promoting religious hatred as evidenced by your list.

Sorry Chief, but not even being close to the same. In GE the school designated the place and time. On the mat before the wrestling is not being designated by the host school, the tournament manager, or by KSHSAA. Being set up by a few kids---and I think under the direction of their parents. Are you not a preacher/pastor--you at least said you hosted a radio bible study show. I think someone in the Van Linder family is/or was a preacher.

Maybe those that are so concerned about activity in the "middle of the Mat" should censor all verbalization and activities in the middle of the mat to insure that those activities and words don't offend anybody in attendance. Perhaps they should get their warm up routine, and all conversation approved ahead of time? Censors should probably arrive about 2 hours before the meets start and be sure to be out there during all breaks. That should sum up the absurdity of this conversation! I am so very proud of all involved! God Bless and Good Luck to all!

How about censoring some music that is played during down times at tournaments? I went to a tournament in Bitburg, and I don't know what an ICE CREAM PAINT JOB is, but I got a headache trying to decipher whether or not to be offended!

I was a wrestler last year and this is an amazing and truly special event for those of you who do not agree with this i dare you to go talk to one of the wreslters themselves and ask there opinion i find it very sad that parents you are sitting here and trying to prevent kids who are coming together for something greater then wrestling. I would support something started by the kids themselves it truly is sad you are trying to bring something a 17 year old kid started for his fellow wrestlers down. Last of all isnt religous freedoms omething our country was founded upon we live in this country because we are free to do these things if you really are this upset im sure China would enjoy your presence if you want to start regulating things. (Last sentence not be taken seriously)

Prove it for all known history with numbers and references. People have been mass killing each other for thousands of years for religious/religous based ethnic genocide, wars, conflicts. Economics and politics are distant 2nd or 3rd, splus many supposed politically driven mass murdeer goes back to religion. A prime example is the genocidic deportation and transportation of Armenian Christians in the early 1900s by the Ottoman Turks in Turkey. Believed to have killed over 1.5 million Armenians. This was is recognized as the first organized genocide and predated the Nazi Holocaust by 25++ years---it is also recognized in history as the "first holocaust."

One example. Can Google more if needed. But just reinforces my point: you need to do some serious reading of history!!! A little overview of history in high school does not make you a historian. Here is a web site that offers a long list of religous based death and wars. http://www.theskepticalreview.com/JAHPoliticsDeathToll.html

This is being made something much more then it needs to be it is simply a group of wrestlers huddling around for maybe 3 minutes praying then going about there buisness trust me Contrarian and C B the world is not coming to an end a lightning bolt will not strike them in the middle of the mats why sit here and destroy something great that young teenagers started! Maybe you should talk to the young man who started this program because he has the upmost respect for everyones beliefs.

Yea.. How about less boom diddy boom and some Rock and Roll and Country Music--but at a lower decibel level. Would be nice to be able to hear and understand the words!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Who is the music for again? Same thing with the praying, we take too much away from kids today. Let them lead and see where they go, maybe they will make this world a better place!
I am blown away by this post being the longest discussion on a wrestling forum this year! And I have no feelings either way!
Brown

First, I think last year the initial mention of this activity was by a parent--I think who is/was also a preacher, who was directing his kid, Michael VL, in organizing all this.

Second, I do not object to prayer in or on the public school, as long as it is done in the proper way. Why can it not be done away from the wrestling arena, in a designated area perhaps a hallway, a class room, in a private and personal manner. All approved by a school official. I do object in the way it is being organized and publicized--it is not now a private, personal prayer free of cohersion.

I surely am no preacher, Chief Renegade would agree, but I think that Christians actively believe they have to publicly demonstrate their piety. Public 'witnessing" or testifying" to them is the highest demonstration of the expression of their reliigion. Not only do they personally do it, but if they can include, by force of words actions, etc., others to participate, then they may be be able to accomplish the ultimate relious coup---the conversion of a non believer. I rember Brother Daniels at the end of the service in the Baptist Church I attended with my grandfather 60 years ago---his white hair flowing, eyes sparking, sweating like a ................, thumping the bible and yelling "its in the book", and then saying over and over "come on down". Modern day religion is bland and not like the old days. In those days you had to be first chastized and then uplifted.

Excuse any spelling or grammer errors.

About as long as last year.

Who is the music for. If to spin up the wrestlers play Eye of the Tiger continuously. Doubt if boom diddy boom charges them up. Why boom diddy boom in a country school anyway?

Less decibels lets the spectators have an opportunity to read the program, talk to their neighbors, talk to their wrestlers, enjoy the day---all without a splitting headache and ringing ears.

Topeka Highland Regional - Wrestler from Shawnee Heights High School
Beloit Regional - Wrestler from Lyons High School

All 3-2-1A Regionals are filled for at least a day. Looking for both days if possible. Also, a couple from 4A 5A and 6A that are getting confirmed. Looks like our youth leaders are really stepping up!

Just a side note - Wrestlers For Christ was established two years ago by Brett and Harry LaMar, Michael and Doug Vander Linden. No one in the group is/was ever a preacher of any sort. We are all just guys that truly love wrestling and our God. My father encourages my actions in this group and helps when I ask him to. However, I've never been "directed" to organize anything. It is my choice to do what I feel is right and to continue with Wrestlers For Christ.

Michael Vander Linden

OK. If not a preacher or preachers' sons. What is "some sort"

Michael, perhaps when you and Brett grow up, age, get educated and have been to see a lot of the world outside Burlington, Kansas, hopefully you may understand some of the concerns other than yours expressed in this page. I commend you for your beliefs and your actions. But, that does not necessarily make them right with the rest of this countries beliefs. I do not attack you or Brett, so why do you, Harry, Brett and Doug and Chief, and others attack me or others who question something we think could be done in a better way--also a more legal and proper way. The way this is being pushed is like some white guy running through a black neighborhood screaming the "N" word. America is a very diverse country: ethnic, politically, economically, and religously. Every little group has its say, but not atb the expense of all others. Good luck. Bill Mason, Lansing KS, a wrestling fan and father of an ex HS wrestler. Will see a bunch of you at Holton

Contrarian- If we have the right do to something in public why would we need to do it in private and the actaul sessions and organizations is and was led by Brett and Michael, and various other individuals holding the sessions at other regionals. Now why is the fact that there doing this on the mat killing you? Do you have to watch? do you have to listen? Do you have to participate? The anwser to all of those is simply no. Its not like they are doing this over a microphone in front of everyone its on the side of the mat in a little group while everyone else is running around talking it simply doesnt bother anyone except yourself for some odd reason.

Personally i think you should be more worried about Fred Phelps. But i dont know were you are getting " more legal and proper way" this is the legal way show us all were it is illegal.

You haven't read many of the posts---nor have you read the private message I have recieved. More than just me, CB, and rassler question the propriety of this "unorganized, private, and personal prayer" conducted in a public school event. Takke your kid and go to church. Do not bring you church to a wrestling tournament.

As for its legality? One, it is against KSHSAA policy to conduct public religous services at a KSHSAA event. KSHSAA sent an email to regional sponsoring schools and tournament managers last year statinfg such. Two, I think under generally accepted laws, schools can designate a time and place for organized/unorganized religously activities. Do not think any school district or individual shool has designated a gym at a regional as the place to holsd a prayer session. I feel confident, if requested, that a district and a school wold gladly have designnated a time and a private place for such a prayer. If we are going to do it, do it right.

1- there is nothing illegal about this
2- your second statement is ridiculous, and uncalled for
3- tell me how this prayer is at your expense, you are a spectator your place is in the stands, reading the program, talking to friends, eating some popcorn, and watching wrestling. you paid for the seat, now sit down and be quiet i'm trying to watch some wrestling.

You fail to anwser this entire time how this effects you. Please anwser

Headup. THE big question of this whole issue is (first let's change legal or illegal to permissable or non-permissable, or to authorized or not authorized) Why did Michael, Harry, Brett and Doug, and Chief, and Other who push this NOT ask the hosting schhols and KSHSAA for approval. You know what I think, they think it would not be permitted as presented (on the mat before the wrestling). So rather than risk being told NO, they decided to do it on the QT and to hell with seeking permission. If it happens, so be it. But, there was a better avenue. And yes, forcing others to watch or listen to your religious service is intrusive.

I would like to hear from M VL, Brett L, Harry and Doug, and Chief, why they did not ask for permission to have this nonprivate and public private prayer service.

unless you wanna change what the founding fathers wrote ur simply wrong, our constitution and bill of rights kind of permit this.

Willie 424. Good question. Probably will not affect me at all. Was at a regional and if it was done there did not notice.

What does bother, is the manner in how it is being. There is a right way and a wrong way, and it is being done in the wrong way. Read my last posts questioning why M V L and crew did not seek permission, authority etc before the fact. Also, I think it is very intrusive, and rude, to hold such an event in this setting when there is a mix of people and religions in attendance. Those not wiiling or agreeing to participate are forced to set there and watch or listen, to turn their back, or to leave the arena. Why do I have to leave? The wrestlers could walk to a hall or a classsroom for there paryer.

Willie. You need to go talk to a school district superintendent or a HS building administrator. So far you are out of bounds.

Contrarian, does anybody else require permission to speak in the middle of the mat before the tourney begins, or just Wrestlers for Christ? That should answer your question.

Contrarian,

You will sometimes be offended by others. It's part of life in a free society. If this truly offends you to the point that you must turn your back or leave the arena, then you are probably too sensitive to attend a wrestling regional in the first place.

Except for the stopping wrestling part, I would support your efforts to do that. What harm could come from young Muslims practicing their beliefs and asking for safety?

I tried to ignore this topic because absolutely no one is going to consider an opposing viewpoint. This topic is like trying to teach pigs to sing….it annoys you and frustrates the pig. But, two statements by Contrarian caught my attention.

Originally posted by Contrarian

"......I think that Christians actively believe they have to publicly demonstrate their piety. Public 'witnessing" or testifying" to them is the highest demonstration of the expression of their religion."

SOME Christians believe this, not all of us. Some Christians even condemn other Christians as not being pious enough or for holding different views.

Originally posted by Contrarian

"America is a very diverse country: ethnic, politically, economically, and religiously."

I don’t think Kansas is very diverse outside of Johnson County and a few other pockets. A large percentage of Kansans have never considered that they might one day be the minority either in race or religion. That would change things considerably.

We just have to tolerate the tunnel-vision thinking that everyone is a like-thinking Christian and that everyone else should just get used to it. Live long enough and things change.

1- no one is forcing you to watch, like i said you bought the ticket, buy a program and keep your head down, this would be a great time to study the weight classes, or an even better time to buy your popcorn.
2- they don't need permission to pray, the constitution says so. who the hell do you think you are to question the consitution of these United States.

Very well said Lou Ann, what most christians can't seem to understand is that not everyone shares their religous views, But to them anyone who believs differently is going to burn in hell anyway so if we cram our religion down their throats enough times maybe they will convert.

the only wrong thing here is your idea, that their religious FREEDOM can be infringed upon. you simply can not tell anyone when or how to coduct their religious beliefs. you are not understanding the law correctly, sir. but that doesn't surprise me, you seem to have problems understanding just about everything.

BTW i haven't been to church in over 2 decades, and don't consider myself a Christian. But you had better believe that i am an American, and i am very proud, that my grandfather, father, numerous uncles, two of my best friends, contrarian, redeployd, and all other veterans have fought for my freedoms. the same freedoms that allow these young men, to practice their religion how they see fit, and the freedoms that allow us to speak our minds on such sensitive subjects. i salute you all. thank you.

What is sad is that even within the christian community there is strife, A lot of the conservative baptists and independant bible churches think that all catholics will burn in hell. I remember a conversation with chief renegade and mike furches on that very subject several years ago at the wichita classic. They informed me that the catholics had it all wrong and that they were not truely saved, what should people believe the christians can't even decide amongst themselves what is right. That is what happens when people live their life based on fables and ancient stories told by nomadic sheep herders gathered around a campfire.

Lord, I appreciate every gift you have given us! The gift of free will, thoughts and ideas, communication, and on and on! Mostly I thank you for your son Jesus Christ! What a gift you have given us. I also thank you for a country that allows us to do as we please, believe what we want and come to you only if we decide to! I pray for those who believe, those who do not believe and those that are stuck with a giant question mark on which side of the fence they want to be on! I pray that you give them clarity and a desire for you Lord. I ask that over the next weeks you give travel safety and health to all wrestlers, parents, spectators, fans believers and non-believers! While I pray that we are humbled in our gifts I also pray that you are glorified in how we coach, compete, and carry ourselves in your name. I ask these prayers and many more.... Amen!

Let's reason. Unless you have a surface level only understanding of the bible or history, you know that there are irreconcilable differences between Catholics and Protestants. It's the reason for the Reformation. In a nutshell, if I were to say that we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ to a priest, he would agree with me. But if I said that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone, he would disagree. Catholics believe in the bible PLUS church tradition. Protestants stand for the 5 "Solas" of the reformation, Sola Scriptura (Scripture alone), Sola fide (Faith alone), Sola gratia (Grace alone), Sola Christus (Christ alone) and Soli deo gloria (Glory to God alone). In short, we DISAGREE about the Gospel. That's why it is irreconcilable.

Mike Furches and I are Protestants. We believe that the bible is without error and is the only authority written to mankind. The catechism states that protestants are accursed. So be clear and know both positions before you state what Mike and I told you in Wichita. There is MUCH MORE information that would further clarify my beliefs and I would be entirely glad to explain those to anyone who asks.

Think about this. If someone asked you how to get to heaven, what would you say? Don't say "Be good" or "Do good" and then also say you are a Christian. The bible cleary states that NOBODY is good. Romans 3:10 and that ALL have sinned. Romans 3:23. It's not my opinion, it's what the words say.

Now you can certainly say that you don't believe the bible. That is a valid intellectual stance. Just don't say that you are a follower of Christ (A Christian) and then deny what is in the bible or have no idea what it says.

Just some clarity on my position since you recalled a talk we had in Wichita 5 years ago. I'm glad that was still on your mind.

The bible states that no man is good that we are all sinners because of the original sin, Adam eating the forbidden fruit, since that day man has been cursed. According to the bible we are saved by grace and by putting our trust and faith in jesus christ who is also god and the holy ghost( the Trinity) Try to explain that one. No man is saved from good works because no amount of good works can overcome a single sin, So a man who has followed the bible his whole life and the worst child molester and murderer are in the same boat doomed to hell unless they come to jesus, who saved us by taking on all of our sins on the cross.so once you are saved you are always saved until you read hebrews 10:26
New International Version (©1984)
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left

I can debate the bible with you all day chief, I have read it and reread it several times have been to bible classes in the baptist,independant bible church, catholic ,lutheran, and any sane man will realize that these are nice stories and the world would be a better place if everyone lived and cared for each other like the bible says but they are fables and ancient stories whose orgins come from many other ancient religous stories and beliefs that did not take hold over the course of time.

So now you are saying that Christians are insane. Interesting.

I can't let that one go without answering. Receiving the knowledge of the truth is not salvation! Even the demons believed the facts, James 2:19. Nobody lost their salvation. They never had saving faith.

Sane was the wrong word to use there chief I should of said open minded and reasonable man. Sorry I did not mean to suggest that anyone was insane

Open minded can often mean undecided.

Or it can mean one that looks at all the facts including evolution and science before he commits his life to a book of ancient fables.

Evolution is a fairy tale for grown-ups.

Lancer Lou

Originally posted by Contrarian

"......I think that Christians actively believe they have to publicly demonstrate their piety. Public 'witnessing" or testifying" to them is the highest demonstration of the expression of their religion."

I think it was Chief renegade who said this to me last year in this same discussion---Christians have to demonstrate their belief and..............

Posted by Headup. "BTW i haven't been to church in over 2 decades, and don't consider myself a Christian. But you had better believe that i am an American, and i am very proud, that my grandfather, father, numerous uncles, two of my best friends, contrarian, redeployd, and all other veterans have fought for my freedoms. the same freedoms that allow these young men, to practice their religion how they see fit, and the freedoms that allow us to speak our minds on such sensitive subjects. i salute you all. thank you.

Contrarian's Response: I did my 22 tears active Army service, carried a gun, flew helocopeters, saw some blood and death. Also lost a younger bother in service to his country. WHEN, WHERE AND HOW LONG DID YOU SERVE HEADUP--OR DO YOU YET NEED TO PROVE YOUR PATRIOTISM. Or you an arm chair patriot?. And yes, I can watch the gore of HS wrestling!

contrarian, re-read the post, i simply thanked you for protecting my freedoms. how can anyone find fault in that? no i have not been to war, but please don't question my patriotism. again you are crossing the line. not sure where you came up with the "gore of wrestling" that wasn't me??? you need to understand something, people can have opposing views in this country. you and i don't agree, but i don't feel that i ever tried to insult you. please show some respect as i feel, most on here have respected you. have a great day.

Evolution is a fairy tale?

If it is a fairy tale please try and explain to me why humans and chimpanzees share roughly 96% of the same DNA.

Im curious as to how that happened. Did god decide to do that just to confuse us or are the scientists who study the human genome atheists and god haters, trying to turn people away from the bible.

Please explain Chief.

Here is an excellent website to educate on what is constitutionally legal in our PUBLIC schools regarding prayer. Take a look and decide for yourselves.

http://www.adl.org/religion_ps_2004/prayer.asp

Educate yourself!

If I need to I apologize to you. I do. But, I read your posts as personal attacks. ADDED: especially YOUR COMMENT "but that doesn't surprise me, you seem to have problems understanding just about everything". Where you infering I am dumb or stupid?? And yes, I have been attacked on this forum for expressing a personal belief and opinion. In one of the very early post on this topic Chief label me a hater. I do not hate anyone. By inference, me, Cb, rassler and anothers who have questioned this supposed private prayer have been labeled as communists, anti-christian, anti Christ, devil worshippers, etc.

I still have not recieved a response from M LV, Brett, Harry, Doug or Chief on why this was not submitted to the schools and KSHSAA before they went public.

All im saying is that 96% is a lot of freaking monkey.

let me put it this way if I were to give you a sandwich with 96% crap on it and 4% ham, would you be willing to consider that a ham sandwich?

If you are going to address a group or have a meeting, probably do need to ask the tounament host and manager---the courteous thing to do.

Still no answer from the Lemars, Vander Lindens or Chief Renegade on why this was not proposed to the host schools and KSHSAA!!

'Evolution is a fairy tale for grown-ups.'

I don't know, I do not see evolution as incompatable with my believes in God. In our age, we have watched bacteria evolve to the point they are resistant to the antibiotics we use. As the parents of wrestlers we are all aware of the dangers or resistant staph. Evolution occurs, at least to some degree. Haven't really been around long enough to know for sure if we evolved from something else.

This is interesting; but, time for this to die!!!!!!!

Prayer in Public School - Overview

Some excerpts taken directly from "Guidance on Constitutionally Protected Prayer in Public Elementary and Secondary Schools"
(copyright, Jay Sekulow, ACLJ.org, February 7, 2003)

Prayer in Public School - Overview of Governing Constitutional Principles

The history of prayer in public school is a story of legal interpretation. The relationship between religion and government in the United States is governed by the First Amendment to the Constitution, which both prevents the government from establishing religion and protects privately initiated religious expression and activities from government interference and discrimination. The First Amendment thus establishes certain limits on the conduct of public school officials as it relates to religious activity, including prayer.

The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that the First Amendment requires public school officials to be neutral in their treatment of religion, showing neither favoritism toward nor hostility against religious expression such as prayer. Good News Club v. Milford Cent. Sch., 533 U.S. 98 (2001); Everson v. Board of Educ., 330 U.S. 1 (1947). Accordingly, the First Amendment forbids religious activity that is sponsored by the government but protects religious activity that is initiated by private individuals, and the line between government-sponsored and privately initiated religious expression is vital to a proper understanding of the First Amendment's scope. As the Court has explained in several cases, "there is a crucial difference between government speech endorsing religion, which the Establishment Clause forbids, and private speech endorsing religion, which the Free Speech and Free Exercise Clauses protect." Santa Fe Indep. Sch. Dist. v. Doe, 530 U.S. 290, 302 (2000).

Prayer in Public School - Drawing the Line of Permissible Expression
The Supreme Court's decisions over the past forty years set forth principles that distinguish impermissible governmental religious speech from the constitutionally protected private religious speech of students. For example, teachers and other public school officials may not lead their classes in prayer, devotional readings from the Bible, or other religious activities. Engel v. Vitale, 370 U.S. 421 (1962); School Dist. of Abington Twp. v. Schempp, 374 U.S. 203 (1963). Nor may school officials attempt to persuade or compel students to participate in prayer or other religious activities. Lee v. Weisman, 505 U.S. 577, 599 (1992). Such conduct is "attributable to the State" and thus violates the Establishment Clause. Weisman, 505 U.S. at 587.

Although the Constitution forbids public school officials from directing or favoring prayer, students do not "shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate." Tinker v. Des Moines Indep. Community Sch. Dist., 393 U.S. 503, 506 (1969). In addition, the Supreme Court has made clear that "private religious speech, far from being a First Amendment orphan, is as fully protected under the Free Speech Clause as secular private expression." Capitol Square Review & Advisory Bd. v. Pinette, 515 U.S. 753, 760 (1995). Moreover, not all religious speech that takes place in the public schools or at school-sponsored events is governmental speech. Santa Fe, 530 U.S. at 302. For example, "nothing in the Constitution ... prohibits any public school student from voluntarily praying at any time before, during, or after the school day," and students may pray with fellow students during the school day on the same terms and conditions that they may engage in other conversation or speech. Santa Fe, 530 U.S. at 313.

Prayer in Public School - Our Country's Legacy
It wasn't until the early 1960's that prayer in public school was "outlawed" by a new interpretation of the U.S. Constitution. In fact, the history of the U.S. includes prayer and Bible readings in all sorts of public places, including schools. In 1782, the United States Congress passed the following resolution: "The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools."

William Holmes McGuffey is the author of the McGuffey Reader, which was used for over 100 years in U.S. public schools with over 125 million copies sold until it was stopped in 1963. President Lincoln called him the "Schoolmaster of the Nation." McGuffey declared: "The Christian religion is the religion of our country. From it are derived our notions on the character of God, on the great moral Governor of the universe. On its doctrines are founded the peculiarities of our free institutions. From no source has the author drawn more conspicuously than from the sacred Scriptures. From all these extracts from the Bible I make no apology."

Of the first 108 universities founded in America, 106 were distinctly Christian, including the first, Harvard University, chartered in 1636. In the original Harvard Student Handbook, rule number 1 was that students seeking entrance must know Latin and Greek so that they could study the Scriptures: "Let every student be plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well, the main end of his life and studies is, to know God and Jesus Christ, which is eternal life, (John 17:3); and therefore to lay Jesus Christ as the only foundation of all sound knowledge and learning. And seeing the Lord only giveth wisdom, let every one seriously set himself by prayer in secret to seek it of him (Proverbs 2:3)."

Great website. Thanks. Everyone should read it--especially Chief and a few other religous law experts.

Richard. Look at this site and give us a brief on what is and is not!!! I think the above site is a lot mor definitive.

Headup. You too need to look at this site.

I love all the arguing about christ cause thats what he wants his name talked about.

Good Find gymmom!

Here is a literate post. This young man has a future as an English teacher who emphasizes spelling, grammer, sentence structure and clarity.

Just kidding Dude. Way to jump in with an opinion.

From the website article you reference:

"Can there be prayer before or after athletic events or activities? A school district's policy of permitting student-led, student-initiated prayer before football games is unconstitutional. It is also unconstitutional for a school official, including a coach, to initiate or lead a team in prayer. Nor may a school official ask a team member or any other student to initiate or lead a prayer before, during or after a public or school-sponsored athletic activity or event. It is also unconstitutional for a member of the clergy to offer prayers before or after public school athletic activities or events. Voluntary prayer presented and led by students without official permission or sanction may be constitutional, provided that it is not coercive in any way."

Voluntary prayer presented and led by students without official permission or sanction may be constitutional, provided that it is not coercive in any way.

Taken from the website that was sited.

Contrarion no one is attacking were simply debating on different view points and you took it to a personal level which i as a freshman in college know should be done over forums but in person. We both have different views on how this should be done plain and simple, the only problem is your trying to prevent a group of Teenagers from doing something they want to and i find that sad. If you dont agree with thes then confront the wrestlers themselves and tell them what you think not on these forums thats how you should handle this if its such a big deal.

you all better believe I will be there friday and saturday praying cause there isnt anyone that will stop me

Sorry, but I consider this prayer to be cohercive.. It is being presented with out the explicit approval of all the wrestlers, parents, spectators, school officials, and KSHSAA. If you want 100% crowd approval then do it in a church where everone in attendance is there willing to participate in the service--except maybe those old guys or kid who were dragged there by their wives or mothers.

To the Kansas Wrestling Forum Community -

This is Doug Vander Linden. I have been a technology teacher and wrestling coach in Burlington, Kansas for the past 21 years. I have not been a minister, preacher or priest at any time in my career. Just a teacher and a coach. I have also sponsored Fellowship of Christian Athletes at Burlington High School for the past 11 years.

I am not going to begin to address the pages of responses that this post has created. I have never sent a private message to any of those that have had differring views to the ones shared by Michael, Brett and others. This will be my only post on this thread.

Quite simply, we were called out as doing something wrong in 2010 and now again in 2011. I was provided a copy of the memo from the KSHSAA in February of 2010 from Rick Bowden.

Please note that Mr. Bowden shared that a pre-tournament, student-led prayer whether by Wrestlers4Christ, Fellowship of Christian Athletes or Athletes in Action would be legal and allowable provided that it was held prior to the official start of the event. The official start was defined as the Introduction of Teams, National Anthem or the start of the first match of the first round. Therefore, the students are allowed to gather, pray and go back to warming up any time prior to the official start of each day of the tournament.

We are looking forward to 16 great regional tournaments and 4 great state tournaments over the next 2 weeks. Thank you for sharing a passion for Kansas Wrestling. I have a team of great young men to get ready for Friday.

You are welcome to call at 620-364-2054 in the evenings to discuss any further concerns.

Respectfully,
Doug Vander Linden
1 Peter 5:6

no offence but broke152 sounds like hes from compton.

"In Santa Fe Independent School Dist. v. Doe, the Supreme Court nicely summed up the difficulty with school sponsored religion:

School sponsorship of a religious message is impermissible because it sends the ancillary message to members of the audience who are nonadherents that they are outsiders, not full members of the political community, and an accompanying message to adherents that they are insiders, favored members of the political community"

This may be why kshaa or the schools were never asked. It wouldn't be approved and they knew this.

AHH! We've been duped!

God Lovers and their trickery, clever people you are, very clever...

well were not asking everyone to participate

Coercive - |kōˈərsiv|
adjective
relating to or using force or threats.

Explain how you find that students are using force or threats? I just want your opinion that is all.

So since you guys can pray in a large group in the middle of the mats, would it be acceptable for me to wear a black cloak, chant in latin, and play with my ouija board right next to you guys? Or would that be frowned upon?

Coerce-
1. to compel by force, intimidation, or authority, especially without regard for individual desire or volition: They coerced him into signing the document.

2.to bring about through the use of force or other forms of compulsion; exact: to coerce obedience.

3.to dominate or control, especially by exploiting fear, anxiety, etc.: The state is based on successfully coercing the individual

sorry but I thought it objective to put all the definitions on the post

Wikipedia (now widely accepted as an accurate reference) estimates there are approximately 38,000 Christian denominations. To quote Wikipedia:

"Between denominations, theologians, and comparative religionists there are considerable disagreements about which groups can be properly called Christian, disagreements arising primarily from doctrinal differences between groups."

Please consider that the views expressed by some of the Christians on this topic are NOT representative of the views held by ALL Christians.

a) its not school sponsored
b) Doug V. just posted KSHAA's approval.

Thank you Lou Ann.

You make a very good point and I respect that the views expressed here do not represent all Christans.

flubber,
thanks but still doesn't answer my question.

Hmmmmmmm all that arguing for nothing i thought we were told it was not supported by Mr. Bowden from Contrarian guess that was some false information.

Are the wrestlers who are doing this not exploiting through fear and or anxiety?

Someone may feel pressured to participate in this because of the beliefs of other people, such as friends, coaches, and parents.

Doing this is wrong and yes it is coercive.

You just have to trust people when they say they were forced or threatened. Because everyone is honest and you can trust everyone. There ya go Quags

"The Court also emphasized in Weisman and Santa Fe that attendance at major school events like graduation or football games should not be considered "voluntary" even if authorities officially designate it as such. Weekly football games and high school graduation are central parts of student life and students should be able to attend these events without fear of religious coercion."

How is a wrestling tournament different than football games?

"Moreover, in both Santa Fe v. Doe and Lee v. Weisman, the Supreme Court expressed particular concern that students could be coerced, through pressure from their peers and others, into praying during school events such as football games and graduation ceremonies. This danger exists regardless of whether it is a member of the clergy or a student who offers the prayer. "

These are supreme court rulings.

wow, what a topic. funny that some of the critics can't even post there names. i am proud to be catholic, i don't preach to others just try to lead by example. if someone wants to find me at regionals, i will be on the mat praying with all the others before the wrestling starts.

If KSHAA approved this, then they may be setting themselves up for a lawsuit. Slippery slope they may be on.

Flubber,

If a wrestler is going up to someone and saying "hey go to the prayer meeting or else!" Then yes it is Coercive.
If a wrestler says "hey if anyone wants to come pray for the safety of all of our athletes you are more than welcome too!" then in no way shape or form is it coercive.

By the way, the second example I used is exactly what Wrestlers for Christ is doing. I have witnessed it.

Gymmom,
people have copied and pasted from your website you provided evidence that it is constitutional. I hope you are at a regional where the prayer takes place you that you can see how this goes about. Hopefully you won't mind it anymore.

hey maybe we can get Ted Haggard to lead the prayer via a video feed.

All of you who are opposed to teenagers leading and expressing ther faith should be ashamed you should applaud these young men for what they have done not bash them it is truly sad how society treats young men who are only trying to express there feelings of prayer, but not upon others. Should be ashamed comign from Jack Vielhauer.

KSHAA isn't sponsoring it, just giving approval. I'm pretty sure they would check their rights before approving it.

You must of forgotten the anxious part Quags.

If a wrestler were to choose not to go but felt compelled too because the religious views of your friends, family, or coaches makes that wrestler feel left out or anxious then it is coercive.

And yes I would accept a prayer by Mr. Haggard.

If only we could get Charles Manson on the mat with a megaphone....

yes i believe mr. mansons scriptures would express the views of "the family"

Maybe Mr.Haggard could preach about the dangers of drugs and homosexual prostitutes

Yes...

I sure his security team would personally clear the bathrooms of all heathens.

True except that the wrestlers who are doing the prayer are not singling anyone out purposefully. Again the prayer's intention is for the safety of the wrestlers. No one is purposefully making someone anxious. Why should the wrestler stop the praying for what he believes in, just because another wrestler is a little uncomfortable? Should we not allow wrestlers to pray right before the whistle because it might make the opponent a little uncomfortable? In my opinion, most of the wrestlers that choose not to go to the prayer don't because they would rather focus on their wrestling. They don't sit there and think about being left out.

This may be true for most wrestlers but there will be some who feel awkward and compelled to join in because of pressure.

We cannot infringe upon the rights of others just to make a few people happy.

"The position of the KSHSAA is as follows: Because of the diversity of people attending KSHSAA post-season events, the KSHSAA member schools should observe a moment of silence for personal thoughts and meditation instead of invoking a prayer."


The above statement came directly from Rick Bowden in an email today(2/16/11).

I just think that people need to be sensitive and compassionate to the Jewish, Muslims, Buddhists, Atheists, Mormans, Jehova Witness and anyone else who could be attending. I commend these young people and everyones faith. I am not putting anyones faith down. I just personally feel its place is not in the center of the mat but instead in a private place. I am not a god hater. I understand that there are conflicting interests, values, beliefs, cares and concerns in this world. Good luck and health to all the wrestlers and peace to all.

Never said anything about force or threats. I equate this to my earlier comment that this is "like a white dude running through a black neighborhood yelling the "N" word. Do you agree that woud be coercive? This organized prayer will be presented by a few in front of people of probably many different Christian denominations, probably a few Catholics, perhaps and Asian or two, even an athesist, and I know one team at Holden that has a couple of Muslim wrestlers and a couple of Hmongs. I find this to be offensive and coercive. Also, I think I can find a court decision that says there is no such thing as a non-denominational prayer.

If Doug has an email from KSHSAA stating no objection, then why all the secrecy unless he wanted a repeat of last year's row on this same subject on this forum. Apparaently even Chief did not know of the supposed KSHSAA position---or he surely would have mentioned it!

I have my opinions, others have theirs. Enough said. End of subject.

We are being sensitive it seems to me like you guys are not being very sensitive by sitting here telling teenagers what they can and cant do. and if you have witnessed these before its just on the side of the mat a little group while everyone is running around talking not like its made a huge deal. And can you explain to me how we are being insensitive you do realize the above listed religions have the same right to do as we are right??? No one is telling them no.

Chanute Regionals - Wrestler from Prairie View High School
Arkansas City Regionals - Wrestler from Kapaun Mt. Carmel High School

We have half of the regionals filled up.

Regionals that have not been volunteered for are
4A
Concordia and Maize
5A
Hays and Shawnee-Mill Valley
6A
All 4 Regionals.

If you wish to lead one of these just let me know. My contact info is on the very first page.

Thanks,
Michael Vander Linden

The position of the KSHSAA is as follows: Because of the diversity of people attending KSHSAA post-season events, the KSHSAA member schools should observe a moment of silence for personal thoughts and meditation instead of invoking a prayer."

does that mean kshaa is going to put a stop to this?

OK...

The law of Biogenesis states that “life only arises from life”. In science a law means there are no exceptions to that rule. Take the law of gravity- no exceptions to that law. So why would there be any exceptions to the law of Biogenesis? i.e. the big bang theory, life coming from non-life.

Scientists say that human’s DNA is about 96% the same as an ape’s. This must be evidence that humans evolved from apes. Did you know that a cloud is made up of 96% water, a watermelon is made up of 96% water, and a jellyfish is made up of 96% water? Does that mean that they evolved from the same thing? No, this means that we have a common creator, God.

The Second Law of Thermodynamics (Entropy) says that everything goes from organization to chaos. Evolution directly contradicts this. In evolution, everything goes from chaos to complexity by chance. Here is an example: A man in an airplane at 5,000 feet is holding 10,000 playing cards in two neat decks. He drops them out of the airplane. The cards are floating down towards earth in no order whatsoever. What are the chances that those cards will land on the ground spelling out WELCOME? Not very likely. When this is applied to evolution scientists say it takes more time for the chaos to become order. So, back to the example but this time the airplane is at 25,000 feet, allowing more time for the cards to organize themselves as they fall towards the ground. Do you think that just because of more time they will be able to spell the word WELCOME? No, they will probably be even more disorganized, with cards spread out even further.

Natural selection is change horizontally within a species. Evolution is change vertically where one species turns into another species. Change horizontally goes on every day, Christians accept this. They also accept survival of the fittest and adaptation to the environment. Those who believe in evolution often quote Darwin’s Finch example, where the beaks of the finches vary in size, shape, etc. This is change horizontally within a species, not vertical change. The finches are still finches. There are no known examples of transitional fossils that can be absolutely proven to be transitional fossils. Darwin said that if evolution were true there would be an plenty of transitional fossils, and we have yet to find one!

All we see is devolution!

Good question. Mr. Bowden did not say in his email. Maybe someone should ask him. He acknowledged that it had been brought to kshsaa attention in the past and that "we try to inform our post-season hosts of the policy." I'm not sure what that means.

There is no possible way of policing these prayers. Just as wrestlers pray on the mat before a match, so will they gather for a short prayer before the tournament. All of this talk of legality and liability is a scare tactic that is completely unenforceable.

What is commonly called the Law of Biogenesis was shown by Pasteur to apply to a small isolated environment (like a flask) for a limited amount of time (several weeks at most). It has not been shown at all to apply to the environment consisting of all the oceans, waterways, and surfaces on the planet over millions upon millions of years

2nd Law of Thermodynamics

This idea has been put forward by many people to try to prove that evolution is impossible. However, it is based on a flawed understanding of the second law of thermodynamics, and in fact, the theory of evolution does not contradict any known laws of physics.

The second law of thermodynamics simply says that the entropy of a closed system will tend to increase with time. "Entropy" is a technical term with a precise physical definition, but for most purposes it is okay to think of it as equivalent to "disorder". Therefore, the second law of thermodynamics basically says that the universe as a whole gets more disordered and random as time goes on.

However, the most important part of the second law of thermodynamics is that it only applies to a closed system - one that does not have anything going in or out of it. There is nothing about the second law that prevents one part of a closed system from getting more ordered, as long as another part of the system is getting more disordered.

There are many examples from everyday life that prove it is possible to create order! For example, you'd certainly agree that a person is capable of taking a pile of wood and nails and constructing a building out of it. The wood and nails have become more ordered, but in doing the work required to make the building, the person has generated heat which goes into increasing the overall entropy of the universe.

Or, if you prefer an example that doesn't require conscious human intervention, consider what happens when the weather changes and it gets colder outside. Cold air has less entropy than warm air - basically, it is more "ordered" because the molecules aren't moving around as much and have fewer places they can be. So the entropy in your local part of the universe has decreased, but as long as that is accompanied by an increase in entropy somewhere else, the second law of thermodynamics has not been violated.

That's the general picture - nature is capable of generating order out of disorder on a local level without violating the second law of thermodynamics, and that is all that evolution requires.

Transitional fossils

With the 200th anniversary of the birth of Charles Darwin this week, people around the world are celebrating his role as the father of evolutionary theory. Events and press releases are geared, in part, to combat false claims made by some who would discredit the theory.

One frequently cited "hole" in the theory: Creationists claim there are no transitional fossils, aka missing links. Biologists and paleontologists, among others, know this claim is false.

As key evidence for evolution and species' gradual change over time, transitional creatures should resemble intermediate species, having skeletal and other body features in common with two distinct groups of animals, such as reptiles and mammals, or fish and amphibians.

These animals sound wild, but the fossil record — which is far from complete — is full of them nonetheless, as documented by Occidental College geologist Donald Prothero in his book "Evolution: What the Fossils Say and Why It Matters" (Columbia University Press, 2007). Prothero discussed those fossils last month at the American Museum of Natural History in New York, along with transitional fossils that were announced since the book was published, including the "fishibian" and the "frogamander."

At least hundreds, possibly thousands, of transitional fossils have been found so far by researchers. The exact count is unclear because some lineages of organisms are continuously evolving.

Here is a short list of transitional fossils documented by Prothero and that add to the mountain of evidence for Charles Darwin's theory. A lot of us relate most to fossils of life closely related to humans, so the list focuses on mammals and other vertebrates, including dinosaurs.

Mammals, including us

It is now clear that the evolutionary tree for early and modern humans looks more like a bush than the line represented in cartoons. All the hominid fossils found to date form a complex nexus of specimens, Prothero says, but Sahelanthropus tchadensis, found in 2001 and 2002, threw everyone for a loop because it walked upright 7 million years ago on two feet but is quite chimp-like in its skull size, teeth, brow ridges and face. It could be a common ancestor of humans and chimpanzees, but many paleoanthropologists will remain unsure until more fossils are found. Previously, the earliest ancestor of our Homo genus found in the fossil record dated back 6 million years.
-Most fossil giraffes have short necks and today's have long necks, but anatomist Nikos Solounias of the New York Institute of Technology's New York College of Osteopathic Medicine is preparing a description of a giraffe fossil, Bohlinia, with a neck that is intermediate in length.
Manatees, also called sea cows, are marine mammals that have flippers and a down-turned snout for grazing in warm shallow waters. In 2001, scientists discovered the fossil of a "walking manatee," Pezosiren portelli, which had feet rather than flippers and walked on land during the Eocene epoch (54.8 million years ago to 33.7 million years ago) in what is now Jamaica. Along with skull features like manatees (such as horizontal tooth replacement, like a conveyor belt), it also had heavy ribs for ballast, showing that it also had an aquatic lifestyle, like hippos.
Scientists know that mastodons, mammoths and elephants all share a common ancestor, but it gets hard to tell apart some of the earliest members of this group, called proboscideans, going back to fossils from the Oligocene epoch (33.7 million years ago to 23.8 million years ago). The primitive members of this group can be traced back to what Prothero calls "the ultimate transitional fossil," Moeritherium, from the late Eocene of Egypt. It looked more like a small hippo than an elephant and probably lacked a long trunk, but it had short upper and lower tusks, the teeth of a primitive mastodon and ear features found only in other proboscideans.
The Dimetrodon was a big predatory reptile with a tail and a large sail or fin-back. It is often mistaken for a dinosaur, but it's actually part of our mammalian lineage and more closely related to mammals than reptiles, which is seen in its specialized teeth for stabbing meat and skull features that only mammals and their ancestors had. It probably moved around like a lizard and had a jawbone made of multiple bones, like a reptile.
Dinosaurs and birds

The classic fossil of Archaeopteryx, sometimes called the first bird, has a wishbone (fully fused clavicle) which is only found in modern birds and some dinosaurs. But it also shows impressions from feathers on its body, as seen on many of the theropod dinosaurs from which it evolved. Its body, capable of flight or gliding, also had many of dinosaur features — teeth (no birds alive today have teeth), a long bony tail (tails on modern birds are entirely feathers, not bony), long hind legs and toes, and a specialized hand with long bony fingers (unlike modern bird wings in which the fingers are fused into a single element), Prothero said.
Sinornis was a bird that also has long bony fingers and teeth, like those seen in dinosaurs and not seen in modern birds.
Yinlong is a small bipedal dinosaur which shares features with two groups of dinosaurs known to many kids — ceratopsians, the beaked dinosaurs like Triceratops, and pachycephalosaurs, known for having a thick dome of bone in their skulls protecting their brains. Yinlong has the thick rostral bone that is otherwise unique to ceratopsians dinosaurs, and the thick skull roof found in the pachycephalosaurs.
Anchisaurus is a primitive sauropod dinosaur that has a lot of lizard-like features. It was only 8 feet long (the classic sauropods later on could be more than 100-feet long), had a short neck (sauropods are known for their long necks, while lizards are not), and delicate limbs and feet, unlike dinosaurs. Its spine was like that of a sauropod. The early sauropods were bipedal, while the latter were stood on all fours. Anchisaurus was probably capable of both stances, Prothero wrote.
Fish, frogs, turtles

Tiktaalik, aka the fishibian or the fishapod, is a large scaled fish that shows a perfect transition between fins and feet, aquatic and land animals. It had fish-like scales, as well as fish-like fin rays and jaw and mouth elements, but it had a shortened skull roof and mobile neck to catch prey, an ear that could hear in both land and water, and a wrist joint that is like those seen in land animals.
Last year, scientists announced the discovery of Gerobatrachus hottorni, aka the frogamander. Technically, it's a toothed amphibian, but it shows the common origins of frogs and salamanders, scientists say, with a wide skull and large ear drum (like frogs) and two fused ankle bones as seen in salamanders.
A creature on the way to becoming a turtle, Odontochelys semistestacea, swam around in China's coastal waters 200 million years ago. It had a belly shell but its back was basically bare of armor. Odontochelys had an elongated, pointed snout. Most modern turtles have short snouts. In addition, the roof of its mouth, along with the upper and lower jaws, was equipped with teeth, which the researchers said is a primitive feature for turtles whose mugs are now tipped with beaks but contain no teeth.


Charles Darwin's Legacy
Gallery: Drawing Dinosaurs
All About Evolution



Chief just about every major scientist refutes your claims made in your earlier post, I tried to keep this reply a short as possible but your ridiculous claims have no basis in science at all. You can find hundreds of scientific articles written by leading biologist, physisists, and geologists to refute every claim you made. your post is not based in fact but is purely fiction, what I have here is just a very small sampling of scholorly articles refuting your claims.

20 pages on this? Unbelievable, but not surprising.

Student-led prayer in public venues is constitutional, that is the whole purpose of the free exercise clause of the first amendment. Everybody should know that, it is a basic Civics lesson, many of you should actually read the whole amendment.

If a group of Muslims wanted to meet in the middle of the mat and perform a Salat, they would have the same opportunity as the group of collective Christians who have chosen to do the same thing this Friday. It is not a school sanctioned event and does not cause a substantive disruption. The Satanists who gather before the tournament to sacrifice a live chicken would cause a substantive disruption, not to mention health department concerns and would therefore not be allowed to perform such and act.

There isn’t a whole lot of rocket science taking place here. It can’t be put in the program or announced over the PA (unless TMP is hosting ) but a peaceful gathering of like-minded people who gather to pray in a non-disruptive manner in a public venue is legal 1,000 times out of a 1,000. It doesn’t matter how many bible verses you quote or don’t quote, this is legal. Don’t agree? Vote and send you money to people of influence who share your views.

To the wrestlers this weekend: theists, atheists and agnostics alike, GOOD LUCK to you no matter who you put in your corner.

In parting I leave you with one of my favorite verses, because I can:

“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.” - Ephesians 6:12

I spit orange juice out of my nose when I read your comments about evolution. I will start with your point about the 2nd law.

You have said that the second law only applies to closed systems, this is a classic example of your lack of understanding and confusion of the experimental necessity for a closed system to test for the existence of the Second Law, with the actual actions of the Second Law being evident in the open systems in which we live. Because the universe itself may be considered to be an isolated system and all naturally occurring processes are irreversible, one statement of the Second Law of Thermodynamics says that the entropy of the universe is constantly increasing. In fact, Clausius summarized the first two laws for thermodynamics by: “The energy of the Universe is constant; the entropy is tending to
maximum.”
1. Irreversible processes will result in an increase in entropy of the universe.
(Irreversible process will result in entropy generation.) Irreversible processes
result in loss capability for performing work.
2. Reversible processes result in no increase in entropy of the universe. (Reversible
processes result in no entropy generation.)
3. Proposed processes which would result in a decrease of entropy of the universe
are impossible. (Impossible processes result in negative entropy generation.)

We, along with this entire universe are on a downward spiral towards an ever-increasing state of entropy (chaos). The Second Law of thermodynamics proves this point. And closed systems are an experimental necessity for us to test for and to observe the existence of the Second Law of thermodynamics that is evident in the universe we live in.

EVOLUTION IS IMPOSSIBILITY!

Redstorm, I mean no disrespect but...

"Organized prayer in the public school setting, whether in the classroom or at a school-sponsored event, is unconstitutional. The only type of prayer that is constitutionally permissible is private, voluntary student prayer that does not interfere with the school's educational mission."

"[ T] he Establishment Clause forbids state-sponsored prayers in public school settings no matter how nondenominational the prayers may be." Lee v. Weisman, 505 U. S. 577 (1992).

Look it up if you need to. I posted a good site previously to help educate the unimformed.

wow i thought last years talk about about smoking and drinking in front of children was great. but this one is better thanks for the reading material.

This is really starting to remind me of an episode of COPS. You always have that person who gets arrested because the cop tells them to do something and they refuse to obey a lawful order. They kick and scream all the way to jail (usually drunk) professing they did nothing wrong and they know their rights, and often times additional charges are added because of the damage they do during their tantrum. WHAT THESE KIDS ARE DOING IS LEGAL! If you disagree, please feel free to contact the police or possibly a judge prior to these events to have them stopped. I wonder what their response will be.........

This prayer is not"state-sponsored" it is a group of boys who have believes. So here is my suggestion to you and everyone else who does not like it ignore. The same first amendment that protects you and allows you to speak your mind on this forum also protects those young men if they want to pray. Last time I checked Main street in every town was paid for with tax dollars would you be this outraged if a group of teenagers wanted to say a short prayer asking for the safety of their team mates and opponents during the most important two weeks of the wrestling season on Main street. The answer here is NO.
Good Luck this weekend wrestlers and coaches.

The key word here is organized. This activity is not organized by the school, kshaa, or any government entity.

i will appologize to you as well, as i did not intend to call you dumb or stupid. i was rather saying that you seem to have a hard time seeing anyone's elses point of view. my stance has not waivered during this whole discussion. this is America, and i am proud of that. The law does not prohibit what these youngsters plan to do. i mean to all who oppose this, don't you think that there is much worse they could be doing????

It's just not true! Students may engage with other students in religious activity during non-curricular periods as long as the activity is not coercive or disruptive.

Chief,
This will be my last post here, arguing religion is pointless with ultra right wing conservatives like you because you thumb your nose at scientific fact and try to mold it to fit your beliefs. For anyone interested there are several hundred studies done by the worlds top physicists and universities that refute chiefs claim about the 2nd law of thermodynamics, it is a very complex theory that can't be explained away by dropping a deck of cards from an airplane. There are hundreds if not thousands of transitional fossils and more are being found all of the time. Please look at all the facts before you base your life on a book of fables and fairy tales whose orgins started with a bunch of uneducated largely illiterate nomadic sheep herders who told stories around their campfires. Who also thought the world was flat, that the earth was the center of the universe, and that they could appease their god by offering up burnt animals to him, Who knows they may be right has anyone out there ever seen the edge of the earth I hope someone has constructed a barricade so people won't fall off. Have a nice day and good luck to all the kids wrestling this weekend.

It's not true??? Just as "Evolution Is Impossible"?. Seeing a different point of view (or facts) for some is like herding cats on the prairie. It's just not going to happen.

rassler,

The theory of evolution is in serious debate. The circular reasoning of the pseudoscience of the lunatic left has caught up to them. There is so much information out there regarding credentialed scientists that disagree with the inverted fantasy of evolution. Your flat earth soundbite shows the absurdity of your position. The bible clearly says the earth is round. It's also a dangerous gamble on your part to bet your eternity that Jesus was not who He said He was.

Come see me in Wichita!

But the problem here is not that we need to see a different view point in this whole discussion nobody but you guys is talking about persuading others. This whole topic is about wether they should be able to pray. Me personally i don't care either way. When they announce it over the intercom nobody HAS to go. They will say a prayer session will now begin in the middle of mat 1. (or something to this effect). And if you don't feel like being a part of this prayer session then warm up on mat 2 for pete sake. It's not that hard this is just like the mecca the muslims make every year. We all know about it. They talk about before hand but NOBODY MAKES YOU BE THERE. If you want to be a part of it show up. If not sit in the stands or warm up on the mats. ENOUGH SAID.

Some one posted this link on facebook today so I figured it was only fitting considering this on going debate. Im not that into country music but as a CHRISTIAN and a musician...I love it because its beyond true!! PLEASE WATCH!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mv7Qhktiij0&feature=related

Entropy.....after five years of engineering school, I have yet to hear any explanation that really makes sense. I've heard lots of evolution arguments, but most of those claims could be refuted by watching some people i know try to open an envelope.

[quote=rassler]Chief,
This will be my last post here



Thank you!

figured i better a least get one quote it.

The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy My brothers. And you will know My name is the Lord when I lay My vengeance upon thee.

(pulp fiction 1994)

i know this does not help your debate but me being me had to throw it in there. heck i can't even tell you what part of the bible it is from. but i got one in anyway.

What a HOT TOPIC!!!!

Opening poost was 7:23 PM Sunday evening 13 Feb. Time elasped since opening 28 hours. 3,487 HITs and 212 posts/comments.

Issues or comments on:
prayer
religion
genocide war and death caused by religous conflict
law
constitution
military service--or not
creationism
evolution
thermodynamics
biogenesis
music
Charles Manson and "family"
movie dialogue

Just like that pink rabbit in the battery commercial--"just keeps on going"---or the old TIMEX Watch commercials--"Keeps on Ticking"

And the regionals don't start until tomorrow!!!!!

Charles Manson's followers were knowns as "the family" I was not saying that Manson's teaching would represent the views of a normal american family.

Unless of course they like to break into peoples houses and kill people because of an old Beatles song.

I want to highlight just a few reasons as to why evoloution is scientific fact.

•Genetic variation. There is tremendous genetic diversity within almost all species, including humans. No two individuals have the same DNA sequence, with the exception of identical twins or clones. This genetic variation contributes to phenotypic variation — that is, diversity in the outward appearance and behavior of individuals of the same species.

•Adaptation. Living organisms have morphological, biochemical, and behavioral features that make them well adapted for life in the environments in which they are usually found. For example, consider the hollow bones and feathers of birds that enable them to fly, or the cryptic coloration that allows many organisms to hide from their predators. These features may give the superficial appearance that organisms were designed by a creator (or engineer) to live in a particular environment. Evolutionary biology has demonstrated that adaptations arise through selection acting on genetic variation.

•Divergence. All living species differ from one another. In some cases, these differences are subtle, while in other cases the differences are dramatic. Carl Linnaeus (1707-1778) proposed a classification that is still used today with slight changes. In the modern scheme, similar species are grouped into genera, similar genera into families, and so on. This hierarchical pattern of relationship produces a tree-like pattern, which implies a process of splitting and divergence from a common ancestor.

•Fossil species . Fossils are the mineralized remnants or impressions of once-living organisms. Many fossils, such as trilobites and dinosaurs, belong to groups that no longer exist on the face of the Earth. Conversely, many modern species appear similar to other fossils, yet fossils of the modern species are absent from rocks of corresponding ages. The age of the Earth is estimated to be about 4.5 billion years, with the earliest bacterial fossils about 3.5 billion years old. Fossils from around 550 million years ago (the Cambrian period) show a diverse assemblage of multicellular animals.

Understood. Was in LA when it happened. Remember the event and the players well. Real wackos! Scary!

I think Charley was a HS wrestling champion!

But wait theres more!!!



Evidence for Evolution, and its Significance in our Lives
It is impossible to review all the evidence for evolution in a short article such as this. However, the following offers a sample of the kinds of evidence that have been discovered and confirmed repeatedly by scientists. These examples also illustrate the importance of this evidence for science and society more generally.

•Evidence from fossils. Based on myriad similarities and differences between living species, evolutionary biology makes predictions about the features of ancestral forms. For example, numerous features indicate that birds are derived from reptilian ancestors. By contrast, these data reject the possibility that birds were derived from other groups, such as flying insects. Scientists have discovered fossil birds with feathers and legs like modern birds, but which also have teeth, clawed digits on their forelimbs, and a tailbone like their reptilian ancestors. Fossils are especially important evidence for evolution because, with little effort, each of us can use our eyes and minds to observe and interpret the dinosaur and other ancient fossils in public museums.

•Evidence from genetics. The genomes of all organisms contain overwhelming evidence for evolution. All living species share the same basic mechanism of heredity using DNA (or RNA in some viruses) to encode genes that are passed from parent to offspring, and which are transcribed and translated into proteins during each organism’s life. Using DNA sequences, biologists quantify the genetic similarities and differences among species, in order to determine which species are more closely related to one another and which are more distantly related. In doing so, biologists use essentially the same evidence and logic used to determine paternity in lawsuits. The pattern of genetic relatedness between all species indicates a branching tree that implies divergence from a common ancestor. Within this tree of life, there are also occasional reticulations where two branches fuse, rather than separate. (For example, mitochondria are organelles found in the cells of plants and animals. Mitochondria have their own genes, which are more similar to genes in bacteria than to genes on the chromosomes in the cell nucleus. Thus, one of our distant ancestors arose from a symbiosis of two different cell types.) The genetic similarity between species, which exists by virtue of evolution from the same ancestral form, is an essential fact that underlies biomedical research. This similarity allows us to begin to understand the effects of our own genes by conducting research on genes from other species. For example, genes that control the process of DNA repair in bacteria, flies, and mice have been discovered to influence certain cancers in humans. These findings also suggest strategies for intervention that can be explored in other species before testing on humans.

•Evolution in action. Evolutionary change continues to this day, and it will proceed so long as life itself exists. In recent years, many bacterial pathogens have evolved resistance to antibiotics used to cure infections, thereby requiring the development of new and more costly treatments. In some frightening cases, bacteria have evolved resistance to every available antibiotic, so there is no longer any effective treatment. In the case of HIV, which causes AIDS, significant viral evolution occurs within the course of infection of a single patient, and this rapid evolution enables the virus to evade the immune system. Many agricultural pests have evolved resistance to chemicals that farmers have used for only a few decades. As we work to control diseases and pests, the responsible organisms have been evolving to escape our controls. Moreover, scientists can perform experiments to study evolution in real time, just as experiments are used to observe dynamic processes in physics, chemistry, and other branches of biology. To study evolution in action, scientists use organisms like bacteria and fruitflies that reproduce quickly, so they can see changes that require many generations.

well we should give all wrestelers background checks before compitition then..

just to be safe.

I think its also dangerous to fanatically follow a book that is 2000 years old.

Some of the earliest writings from the bible were written down 3500 years ago.

Or did god beam it to earth like in an old star trek show?

flubber,

Thanks for responding. These statements are just that. Let's talk about dating method assumptions. Let's talk about Homology. It is actually a problem for evolution, not a proof. Let's talk about how Ernst Haeckel's drawings on recapitulation are known frauds. I have had direct conversations with KU and KSU professors that agree with me about errors in textbooks. Statements of fact in those books are anything but that. I have seen multiple debates on this issue. There is a growing controversy!

We should move this part of the conversation to the "Other" thread. I would love to continue there.

Because of the downside alone, I would think that it would be more dangerous to disregard the life, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ based on a hunch that it's not true.

I agree Chief.

There are so many errors here, I will explain on the "Other" thread.

I will say that the suggestion that the development in bacteria of resistance to antibiotics as a result of genetic mutations or DNA transposition somehow “proves” organic evolution is flawed. Macroevolution requires change across phylogenetic boundaries. In the case of antibiotic-resistant bacteria, that has not occurred.

"In the case of antibiotic-resistant bacteria, that has not occurred."

you cant be serious, people all over the world are dying because the infections they have cannot be cured through the antibiotics we have now. The bacterium have EVOLVED a natural resistance to these drugs we have now.

No disrespect here because actually your quote is quite uninformative. You apparently take everything to be literal. "Private" does not mean "not in public view." read the entire Lee case and you will see why prayer was prohibited in that instance. Clearly it was school sponsored. This is not, it really doesn't get any simpler than that. A public school student who wishes to pray in private prior to his meal may do so at the lunch table. He or she does not have to go out of sight, pray and then come back to the table. Much like these students who will share a private prayer in public sight. You have a right to leave the premises during the private prayer if you choose, or you may get caught up in the moment and choose to join the kids, your choice.

Thanks for playing.

That is what is wrong with this country more than anything, is that our system is all messed up when in most everything majority rules but in the case of religion, God forbid we infringe upon the rights of the few who want to go astray and
then feel more special than the moral majority and be catered to.
Because we fear litigation, we instead allow people like Phelps to take a dump all over us while disallowing prayer in schools, pledge of allegiance and open discussion. These few are given more rights and freedom than Christians anymore which is sad.

The fact that these youth are gathering for a brief prayer is a good thing and is hurting no one, ..if one doesn't like it, then turn your head or close your eyes..better yet, go to a country that opens your eyes to just how good it is to be an American.

you couldn't have said it better! LOVE your post!! Wish everyone felt that way!

AMEN!!!

Please don't say amen. It's a religious word. Some may be offended. You are violating everybody's rights. We were not able to turn away from our computers in time and now we have all been tragically coerced. I'm calling the ACLU.

I graduated last year and have wrestled for a long time. I have known Michael Vanderlinden and his father since i started in grade school. And have known Brett and his father my whole high school career. And i think the things they are doing is great!! Who would ever think that two high school kids would be able to be mature enough to start this on their own? This never should have turned into what it did. And it proves how immature some parents are to look down on something that HIGH SCHOOL kids are doing. Like most people said on here leave it alone and let them do what they feel is going to protect the other kids. Congratulations Michael and Brett for starting this and i hope it continues for years!! Good Luck to all the kids wrestling this weekend and give it all you got!!!

As a former wrestler from last year i agree so much with the above posts sometimes its just sad how parents can shoot down a great thing started by High School students its pretty sad, definitely shows how bad our society is were adults will criticize kids over a forum but yet nothing will be said in person.

Actually, Amen is used by more religions than just Christians, so we should be OK
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amen

All right. But don't you dare say holy cow. I know that's religious.

I can't believe what a circus this has turned in to. It started as a young man asking for help wit hsomething he feels strongly about. And apparently there are others that feel the same way. Please leave the negetive comments to yourself.

I haven't been on these forums for over a year now, in fact, only the 2nd time I have visited, not because has been assumed that I am boycotting or anything like that. The truth is, it is because my son has hurt his mother and I so much and I didn't want to deal with the drama. For those that pray, pray for him, he needs it and is not living, or doing the things we support at this point in time.

A few points and will try to be brief, voice my opinion, and then move on, because we still hurt. We still love wrestling, but for those that know our situation, you know why, we would love to keep in touch with folks, and you can contact us at mike@thevirtualpew.com or mike@furches.org, you can also pick up the phone, our number is 316-807-8034, or if outside of the area, toll free - 1-800-344-5013.

I have also been quite busy, my book is published and doing quite well, providing many speaking ops and more, www.thekeystonekid.com and also at Amazon and all major retailers, and I am currently working on 2 movies, and one instructional video for the homeless, between all of that and working with a church in Wichita seeking to locate downtown, with and for in large, the homeless, I don't have much time to be here.

Now to comment on a couple of things. Eric contacted me at facebook to tell me about this thread, I read through some of it.

My thoughts on the subject, then off to other places.

1st a persons right to pray is their right. It needs to be done, if done in a respectful way. I am not one much in favor of 'public prayer' to be honest. My God instructs to go into your closet to pray, that doesn't mean never show respect or thanks, but it has to be for individual purposes, not the purpose of show.

Service on the mat - some have brought that subject up, I miss it as well, have offered in the past to keep doing it, would be glad to do so, but haven't been asked since I did it last time. That service was primarily for those who wanted to worship in some place, in some way, on the Sunday of the tournament. I saw that as a good thing, not because we were trying to proselytize, but for those who wanted to remember their faith, and in some way, worship their God on that given day. Again, it should never be about show though.

Last point, someone said in these threads something about how I believe catholics have it all wrong. That is simply not true. I have many catholic friends that I personally consider born again, saved, will be in heaven and has a loving, real relationship with Jesus. I have to disagree some with my friend Eric or Chief here. I don't consider myself Protestant, I am Anabaptist. Important point theologically as most theologians will consider there actually three branches of Christian encompassing theologies, Catholic, Protestant, and Anabaptist. In a state like Kansas, that has many Anabaptist, (more than most any other state with possible exception of Ohio and/or Pennsylvania, an important distinction. I will agree with Chief, among all three groups, there are many differences, even Chief and I have very differing points of view on theology. We have had those debates and discussions, to assume though or to state that I said, 'the catholics had it all wrong and that they were not truely saved' is simply not true. I have never said that, it is either a blatant lie, or as I choose to believe, just a misunderstanding of something I said, frankly though, I don't recall, (and I do have a pretty good memory) ever discussing the concept of salvation among Catholics with anyone, ever in regards to wrestling. I needed to make that clarification, it was important enough to get me to respond to something for the first time in a very long time on these forums.