New Weight Classes?

Read on the NFHS forum (link below) the rules committee voted to change weight classes to option B...106, 113, 120, 126, 132, 138, 145, 152, 160, 170, 182, 195, 230 and 285.

Can anyone confirm?


http://www.nfhs.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=17;t=001196

Sounds horrible. Wonder how many kids will drop down to 106 and how many kids will be oversized at 106. Also if we are doing this because kids are getting bigger, why not make HWT the old fashioned unlimited?

I think what is horrible is losing a middle weight where the majority of the best kids are.

Old weights 119,125, 130, 135, 140, 145.
New weights 120, 126, 132, 138,145.

More specifically look for the bottleneck next year of kids that would have been 130,135,140 now pulled into just 132 and 138 Can't get to 126 and too small they feel for 145.

I am with you X. I do feel raising the lowest weight hurts the little guys that this is their main sports where bigger guys have other options. Just look that the College signings... the majority of the bigger guys we are creating opportunities for are choosing football when they have to anyway.

But it looks like we deal with it at this point. Not much other choice. Time to work on getting better now.

Ok, my thoughts now as I stew on this more are that this is a totally moronic asinine idea.
Who in the world associated with wrestling would actually come up with this and think it is a good idea? Were all the people in charge of this change heavyweights in high school or 215 pounders? It is my opinion that those two weights were already the "weakest" and all they did was make them "weaker", especially 285.
Why would you punish a bunch (the majority) of stud athletic skilled wrestlers from say 120 to 150 to satisfy a few (the minority) 230 pounders (AKA FB players) that either didn't want to pull to 215 or felt they weren't big enough to go 285? Or some kids that were tweeners of 171 and 189 (still AKA FB players)? Either way it is definitely catering to footballers. Football players are not bad, but as Badbo said they have other options. I don't get it. The only argument there that I can see is that you could say that the change will get more football players out for wrestling. More footbal players out for wrestling is good but not at the expense of the stud athletic skilled middleweights I was talking about.
I know that there are those that will disagree with me or even be mad but there is a good reason why they originally put more middle weights in. Why would we all of a sudden say it's broke, let's fix it? I don't get it. I know there are some stud athletic skilled bigger wrestlers, but definitely not near as many, not even close. And certainly not at 215 and 285.
To help prove my point all one needs to do is go back and look at the past years Fab 5 which morphed into Super 7 selections. What weights were all of them at? The majority were "middleweights". There were no really heavier kids for a reason. Beard was the biggest. The Fab 5/Super 7 are the quality of kids, especially the lower middleweights, that are being "punished" at the expense of bigger kids.

Its a shame that we can't have a weight class system that everyone one likes. If you cut one out of the middle (i.e. the proposed new weight classes) then some people are mad because all of the "good guys" will be pulled into just 2 weight classes. If you leave it the same then you have the 230-240 pound guys that can't get to 215 and are to small to compete at 285 complaing.

It just like any decision thats made your going to piss 50% of the people off all of the time.

I've never seen a 230-240 guy who is worth anything that is too small to compete at 285. Are you kidding me?

yeah I agree seems like a lot of years your better heavyweights are athletic 230 to 250 pounders

i wrested from 171-hwt and never weighed over 225 in hs. the state championship match most years were 220 vs 215. we didn't have 215. i guess the train of thought is to get more "big" guys involved to fill a roster??? i doesn't make sense. seems like to me there were more full rosters when there was no 215lb class. most duals you see teams are open at either 103 or hwt.

We should add a 98 pound class. Montana has it!

Texas has a 180, I think NY also has the 98. Go to 15 weights, that way you have 1 tiebreaker too!

"We should add a 98 pound class. Montana has it!"

I agree with this - and Montana is one of the least populated states. I agree that it is mostly filled with freshman and sophmores - but some of those freshman and sophmores may have 6 to 8 years experience and have a ton of wrestling skill. They for the most part are late bloomers.

The weight change has been discussed at the April 4-6 National Federation HS Wrestling Rules meeting. The process requires that before the NFHS can announce any specific rules changes, the NFHS Board of Directors must review the changes passed by each specific rules committee. Until that point in time, the NFHS cannot announce the changes. I am sure we will know shortly. RMG

The heavyweights have always been discriminated against...they never get any respect! People don't stay and watch them at the tournaments because they are always the last ones and they never get the outstanding wrestler award at tournaments because coaches are already turning in ballots before their match even starts. They are overlooked for awards as well. You are correct in saying the Fab 5 are all middle weights because no one even considers the heavyweight. It's been very tough being the parents of a heavyweight because he didn't get some of the awards we thought he deserved but a 143-18 overall record and 2 time state champ we couldn't be prouder!!

Lori,

It is true that the heavy's wrestle the finals to a near empty gym. I am in favor of drawing the order of matches before each final. The discrimination claim is actually earned. There are a handful of athletic big guys. Most heavy matches are very plodding and lethagic. For the most part, leg attacks are non-existent. The weights are also very top heavy (excuse the pun), similar to 103. At 119-152, you usually see 5 to 6 deep athletes with a variety of technical moves instead of a two on one lean/push out extravaganza. There are certainly top quality exceptions!

Did the Kansas Coaches or Admins as a whole vote against or for this change?

My son Tucker will be a freshman next year, and is weighing about 85#'s. I currently have him strapped to a weight bench, with an iv drip consisting of testosterone, weight gain, growth hormone, and other various steroids. But even under these conditions he will be far from the new 106# weight or even the 103# weight class. Every pound matters when you are at this size.

Don't forget the mashed potatoes............lots of butter and gravy.

peanut butter and milk work better. trust me. cheeseburgers and beer work best, but the kids only in the 8th grade.

Its kinda weird, this year we were trying to cut 17 pounds to get down to our weight, I chained him to the truck and drove for three hours in his rubber suit, barely making weight, sometimes I forgot he was back there. This year, the complete opposite.... Wrestling, what a sport.

Adding a 98lb weight is not a good idea. there would be 2-3 guys in a bracket on a weekly basis. not enough guys to fill the weight class. the weight class was basically 105 anyway with a 2 pound allowance.

Personally I like the new weights as the old were pretty light to middle of the road heavy. Never liked how the weights went from 171-189-215.

Would also like to see kids have to make scratch weight for every tournament and dual. One could argue the 2 pound rule makes wrestlers cut more weight than they typically would if they had to make scratch every time.

[quote=lazyman_1]Adding a 98lb weight is not a good idea.


Especially when your kid does not fall into this criteria.

Spoken by someone who never weighed less than 98lbs in high school.

It is legal to feed him beer, only if he is baling hay....

It is a growth allowance, and a very good idea...........

I know of a number of exceptional Kids Fed wrestlers that couldn't even break 98 pounds this year and it was tough on them. I know of one wrestler that struggled all year to make 103/105 and still looked much smaller than many of his opponents when it came time to wrestle. Bone density is good when you are entering the golden years of your life, but it can be detrimental when you are a young teenager trying to win a gold medal.

Parents and Coaches should blame themselves for letting weight cutting be detrimental. Kids should manage their weight with help from Coaches and Parents. I watched plenty of kids that would have been healthy 98's this season.

Coach,

I can see where you might have misinterpreted what I wrote. If I misinterpreted your post, then I apologize. What I meant to convey is that there are a lot of very talented wrestlers out there that struggle at 103 because they give up a lot of weight (because they only weigh 92-100 for example). Any wrestler that is managing their weight as well as they, their parents, and their coaches can, will still come up against wrestlers that look (and likely are) bigger than they are when they step on the mat.

You would think they would make these decisions based on statistics. Specifically team rosters with weight classes AND participants by weight in tournaments.

My opinion is that IF there was problem, it was that there were 18 - 26lb differences in some of the upper weights (171-189-215). People talk about the size difference for some 98lbers, if you look at 189, you can have guys that come in at a natural weight of 195 and wrestle 189 and guys coming in at 205 or 210 wrestling 189. You are always going to deal with that, but the heavys have fewer options.

I would agree that 215 and 285 are typically the weakest weight classes. Occasionally you'll have Zlatnik type big guy, but it is pretty uncommon. You see guys move from 215 to 285 because they know they can have more success. A couple of years a ago, the Eudora 189 lber went to 285 and took 6th at state.

The better solution would have been to change 189 to 185, add a 200 and move 215 to 220.

For the record, I always stay to watch the 285 matches. They are the most unpredictable.

They did base these off of statistics. These weights were the result of a few years worth of data collection on the part of wrestling teams and where wrestlers were weighing. Then, they took and divided the classes using a 7% weight difference throughout the new classes. I think it is a good idea, and not something they did "willy-nilly" (like most government programs).
If you really want to gripe and complain, why not just change to college weights anyway? Why doesn't college have a 98 lb. class, if they are so abundant?
Just my 2 cents!

Maybe you are too superficial to understand this, but I will try and explain anyway. My son is going to turn 14 at the end of July this year. He will be a freshman this year and weighs 85#'s. Part of the problem is that he has a bad birthday, the other part is that he has not started puberty yet, which would typically enhance his weight. The Schreiner family genetically is small, no one has ever wrestled over 140 lbs their senior year, and this is quite a few of us. There is basically no other sport in which we will have success with due to our size. Other people have noted on here that, if you are bigger by nature, then your options have opened up. Putting the smallest class even bigger, once again limits our options further. So to end my post, the comment about having the lowest weight be the same as college is really ignorant. The difference is puberty, maturity and flat out 4 years difference.

Yes, wrestling is missing a major area of participation - the light kids. Yes, not every school would have a 98 lb kid, so, I know many that would and our school would be one!!! Once you get past the top 25% of the schools, the rest of the teams seldom field an entire squad. We should focus on those areas where we can grow. And, another point, the new weights eliminate a middle weight. Look at the brackets for Fargo in Jrs at 140, 145. Look at USA nationals at cadet at 140, 145, and 152. Then look at the higher brackets and tell me why we lost a middle weight inorder to accommodate an extra higher weight. No way to explain the thinking involved other then a bunch of people making decisions who are totally out of touch with reality. Another reason we need a wrestling union, so we can demand negotiations prior to implemenation.

If they did the research and the numbers are accurate, it's hard to argue. I have never seen wrestling as a small man's sport. I think the beauty is that it is an all man's sport, regardless of build or size. Because of that, I think the 98 or 100lb weight class is a legitimate request. Obviously there would be fewer 98lbers at 18 than there are at 14.

I think what kills the sport is you have uneducated parents that think they are dieticians. They freak out if there kid doesn't get to eat so much food, but in reality if you stick to the actual portion sizes for things...you will be fine. Maybe get a small fry and a grilled chicken instead of the Super Sized Cheddar Soaked Potato sticks and Quadruple BiPass Burger.

Also maybe go for a 30 minute walk/jog in the evening (parents can join in) and that way in the mornings you are able to eat breakfast that may be a little larger then normal.

It is not uncommon for a small thirteen (13) or fourteen (14) year old high school freshman to qualify for the 98 lb. weight classification. I had three (3) sons who would have qualified for this weight.

It would be highly unusual for a seventeen (17) or eighteen (18) year old college freshman to qualify for a 98 lb. weight classification however there are very rarely any collegiate forfeits at the minimum 125 lb. weight classification.

And I can bring in Scott Walker as our commissioner.

Richard, do you think Walker could help you put together a schedule for the State Freestyle tourney? But, I would imagine he would be right with you on not releasing the wrestler list until the last moment. Keep everything secret, the members should have no input or knowledge until YOU decide.

The tournament director is charged with determining the schedule for the tournament. I am not the tournament director.

Same reply as above!

You are aware there is an annual members meeting. At the annual meeting the members have the ability to provide input. The organization makes every effort to be transparent. I am unaware of any secrets and if you have any questions - Ask?

I do understand that there are smaller kids out there, and that bumping the lightest class up 3 lbs. is a big deal when you are that small. I have 3 kids, and they are all small. I do understand your concern that your son will only be 85 lbs. as a freshman, and I know that the Schreiner's are smaller, as I have had the priviledge to coach Cole. I can say this about the Schreiner's though: They won't let size determine their work ethic. Regardless of the weight, they will work hard and you will know you've wrestled your best when the match ends. I meant no disrespect, but in my 18 years of coaching, the 103 was almost always a 4-5 person bracket at Regionals. This year, our Regional placers at 103 went 0-8 with 7 falls, and 2 were girls. There wasn't a winning records in the Regional bracket of 5. With the 106, maybe this will change, and the quality of competition will increase.
All that I meant in my earlier post was that there were 3-4 years worth of research in KS and across the nation to find where the most participants were at. Obviously, as a result of their data collection, there needed to be a change and they came up with these weights, based on their findings. The weights were then distributed by a 7% differential between them.

A weight class needs to be well represented by Freshman - Senior wrestlers.

Didn't Junior and Cadets just add 5-6 wights classes in recent years?

Eliminating the 103 lbs class, will eliminate alot of 4'xers. Most 4 x's state champions start at 103 lbs, with only a few exceptions. I personally like the smaller weights. Much more interesting and fast paced. Hwy Wts have less moves and arsenal to attack, and to me are slow and boring, not knocking them, just my personal experience of watching and wrestling for 35 years. Yes you do get your Jeff Boyles every great once in a while, but all one needs to do to see that by eliminiating the 103 class elimates alot of the best wrestlers in Ks. at one point in their career. (which would be their freshman year). We don't need more pushing and shoving by adding more boring upper weight classes.

I've seen several complaints that Hvy Wts get the short end of the stick due to OW of the tournaments already being voted on, and the poeple are leaveing. They even switched the starting line up around so they would actually force people that don't like to watch the hvy wts watch it now. People are not forced to show up at the beginning of the championship matches, they just do, because the little guys actully hit many many different moves or at least attempt too. People show up on time to watcht that. Just like people leave early as they don't care to see 2 215 lbs or 285 lbs push eachother for 6 minutes, somtimes even longer if its the usuall 1 to 1 tie at the end of regulation.

Leave it the same, or add 98 lbs. I seen a lot of stud 8th graders this yr that will only be sidelined or forced to club wrestling if the weights increase. 12 and under 64 and 68 are crazy tough and the bottom weith classes in this age group. These kids will be lucky to hit even 103 by 9th grade. If you ask me we are losing our best to cater to kids that play football anyway.

I feel this move make the competition even less fair and uncompetitive. Now your 0 and 8 record kids at 103 will have to go up and wrestling even tougher kids at 106 that cut down from 112. Did you think of that one. You can just turn you 8 losses with 7 pins to just 8 pins by loss now,. If they couldn't win at 103 what in the world makes you think they will even stand a chance at 106?

"if they can't win at 103 what in the world makes you think they can win at 106"

-I don't see your point? Sounds like the kid just can't win period.... What does it matter if they are losing at 103 and 106, they're still losing.

Are you really making that point? That's your concern? C'mon man, get a hold of yourself.

Someone talked about research that this was based upon. Look at USA Nationals entries for this year's jr's, 130 to 171 were where most of the kids were, with I believe 160 having the most entires. It gets sparse at the weights above that. Now this would not include most freshmen and sophs. If you look at cadets, you really do not see much at the top weights. As such, where did they get their numbers??? They eliminated a middle weight where most of the kids are, makes total sense. The decision is made and it is what it is, but this is really based on research????

"I feel this move make the competition even less fair and uncompetitive. Now your 0 and 8 record kids at 103 will have to go up and wrestling even tougher kids at 106 that cut down from 112. Did you think of that one. You can just turn you 8 losses with 7 pins to just 8 pins by loss now,. If they couldn't win at 103 what in the world makes you think they will even stand a chance at 106?" - lylegeyer

It really adds up to a 1 lb. difference at State, as the 103's are now 105 for Friday's matches, and 106 for Saturday. The question is, will the state keep the 2 lb. growth allowance?

If the 106 class was in place this past season, we would have had a different kid in there, as I'm sure many other teams would have. The Bobcat wasn't even full at 103 this year, so why should we keep 103 or add 98? And how does this make it less competitive? I see it as a way to ensure that there is better quality wrestling at the 106 weight, because you will have those borderline 113's dropping. I think that this opens the class up to Freshmen through Seniors, not limiting it to Freshmen and a few Sophomore's. A 98 lb class would be just Freshmen. How does that make any sense in the overall scheme of things? As far as eliminating the lighter guys, wrestling has always been a sport where, as Ric Flair says, "To Be the Man, you have to Beat the Man!". If a Freshman is that good at 85 lbs, he will prove it in the room and on the mat. How many Srs. have won State at 103? Been a 4X'er at 103?

As far as the heavy's getting the raw end, run some duals/tournaments backwards for a change. Start with HWT and work backwards through the weights. I think it would be exciting to watch. Make more use of the Random Draw for Duals and for Finals. Mix it up a little bit.

I made the statement of wanting to add 98 because I want to give more kids a chance to wrestle. The fans get to benefit by watching more wrestling, the parents of the kids benefit by having their child compete, and most of all it gives those kids that fit that 98lbs category a chance to compete.

two things-

4xers will be 4xers whether it's 103 or 106- it's 3 lbs

people really leave before the hwt match because it's late, not because they don't like the style. if a dual is undecided everyone of them will stay and be on their feet. come on, it has nothing to do with style.

285lbers do NOT have to be last! When Derby moved the best finals match to happen last in 2009 and 2010 everyone remained in the gym until the last whistle blew.

Headup, you are in denial if you think the majority of wrestling fans enjoy watching dancing bears.

Geyer, where are you coming from?? 103 or 106, it isn't that big of a difference. There are almost ALWAYS more byes at 103 than any other bracket in the tournaments we attend. A 4xer should be an exceptional wrestler. For the most part 103 is mostly freshman so I applaud and effort to make this weight class a little tougher and more populated. Seriously, we should keep a lower populated weight just to have more 4xers??? That is some strange logic.

Varsity sports aren't really meant for Freshman. How many do you see on the court, football field, track, varsity golf, etc. I had a son who this year weighed 99lbs at the start of the season and was undersized all year. He would have been even more undersized at 106 and it would be unfair, in your eyes, to him. To me it would prepare him for the next three years. Still better to be on varsity getting whipped than be on jv. The weight classes have to be adjusted to fit the normal distribution of varsity athletes. There will ALWAYS be outliers or exceptions. I don't think we should cater to undersized freshman so we can have 16 team tournaments with 7 kids in the 103lb bracket.

98lbers should not be wrestling, they should be working on their pony riding skills as their true calling is being a jockey. JMO. Brandon, you would look great in some black and orange silks at Churchill Downs on Saturday afternoon in the spring. In the winners circle with a mint julip in one hand and a trophy in the other.

Might be in the running for funniest post of the 2011 year! While I don't agree.... It is funny!

Coach, Will's remarks may be funny but they are also very offensive to some parents and young athletes that read this forum. As a parent of one of these dancing bears as Will describes the 285 pound wrestlers I took offense to this remark of his:



There are just some things a person who is in a position of respect in the USAW-KS organization should not be saying on a public forum. Will is a person who is respected by many in our wrestling community and I think remarks like this are not needed.

Will has a lot of great progressive ideas and I know is dedicated to Kansas wrestling. But I think he could get his point across in better ways sometimes and this was one of those times.

A former 285 pound wrestler Cameron Adcox is fighting to keep the KSU wrestling club alive. See the college forum if you are interested in being a part of his efforts for all wrestlers of every weight class!

Will, I understand that where my son is now, is not of the norm. It is our problem, and we will work with whatever the majority rules. My vote of course, due to our situation, is to keep it the same or to go to the 98# class. Will you may think that it is good for Tucker, being 26lbs under weight next year, to get his butt kicked, and that it will be good for him in the long run, but I disagree. Tony Purler told me once that, too much success inspires laziness. Too much defeat causes lack of confidence, therefore lack of effort and the desire to try new moves... So i think after reviewing this conversation with you, and knowing that you are the wiseman of the sport, Tucker and I will be shopping for a thoroughbred horse this weekend.

First of all, everything we say and do can probably be seen as rude or inappropriate. I am 100% sure Will was Tongue and Cheek here with this comment. I may be wrong, but I believe he has a son who competes at 103 and I thought was a little small for that weight class. It is what it is..... While I don't agree with 106 Weight class, I found a joke funny. We laugh at inappropriate jokes every day. Almost all jokes are offensive to somebody these days. It is what it is... It was funny, I laughed and it's over. I even put I did not agree with his statement... but still laughed....

Have a blessed day...

Some of these comments are derived from a narcissistic personality disorder, and can be treated through psychotherapy.:)

LOL... Now I think that is funny... However, there is probably somebody in America that has a Narcissistic personality disorder and would be offended by that statement... However, as I stated.. I think its humorous.

I have been trying to avoid posting on this weight change because I am too personally and emotionally involved on the small side of the weight classes but I can't resist so here goes....

One of the main reasons I love wrestling is because it doesn't discriminate based on size or a subjective opinion of a coach. That is why I loved wrestling growing up. Wrestling provided me an opportunity that no other sport could provide because I was the 88 lb freshman and we had a 98 lb weight class. Because of that I was able to place at state 4 times and win it once.

The reason this is important is because it allowed me to get recruited to wrestle in college at a variety of colleges. I ended up attending West Point, wrestling for them and then serving in the Army until I retired in 2007.

I am absolutely convinced that if I did not have the opportunity to compete as a freshman, my chances of getting recruited to USMA would have dropped dramatically. My life would be totally different than it is now.

I share this because I think we lose site of the overall purpose of high school sports....that is to provide opportunities for kids. Wrestling is one of the only sports left that allows smaller folks to compete and have a chance to get help their college education.

Now we are taking away another opportunity....who cares if it is mostly freshman wrestling at the smaller weights. Yes you don't see a lot of freshman starting on varsity in other sports...why....because size and a coaches subjective assessment plays a major role in playing those sports.

I also agree with John, we have decreased the # of weight classes in what seems to be the largest population of wrestlers. We have done this combined with increasing the smallest weight in order to add a weight for a relatively small number of folks.

Done venting....just my perspective.

Will,

Yes I did jockey and gallop horses when I was in high school....decent $$$. We also raised Mules....do you know what makes a Mule? Mule = Horse + Will's Comment

Coach Church:

I did not intend to take exception to your post. I apologize to you if my post came across that way.

Perhaps I am the only one that took any offense to the dancing bear comment.

Maybe I am getting a little too irritable and overly sensitive in my older age.

I wish I knew how to post a photo here because we have the funniest picture of our heavyweight standing over 6 feet tall wrapped in a bear skin!

We all tend to see an issue only from our own experience. It is hard to be objective when we are parents & fans. Even at 189, the crowds would often be sparse during the finals of most tournaments. Our coach started a policy many years ago that no wrestler could leave as long as anyone on the team was still wrestling. He couldn't control the parents, but at least the team members stayed.

At UNO some of the most exciting matches were the heavys. You never knew what was going to happen and the outcome can change very quickly. This past season's heavyweight had to step in when we lost a previous year's champion. He wrestled with more heart and grit than anyone I've seen. He was often outsized, but he never gave up and always had the crowd behind him.

That is funny...How much do Jockey's make? I may have found my calling.

Now that's funny.


No really, I don't see why all the fuss is over the 103/106 weight change issue. I mean I guess it sucks if you are a little 103 or the parents of one but you still have the weight. Eat more, lift more and grow which I know is easier said then done. I don't want to be the bad guy and minimize the grief created by that, but really?

The real travesty once again, and it is a total travesty, is that we would lose a middle weight. That is totally ridiculous and asinine because again, without a doubt, guaranteed, no question, hands down, end of discussion, period, exclamation point, the middle weights are where the majority of the kids are and not just the majority of the kids but the most studest, most "athletic", most skilled, most etc. wrestlers are. And to think that we would do that to make it easier for dancing bears (not my words) and make room for some more slightly smaller more athletic dancing bears is totally wacked out.

I don't get it and can't understand why those that promote the weight change or where responsible for the change don't get it. That is ridiculous and asinine in itself.

Now that is a solid post X!!!!!

Where is Egg's response and when will his committee vote on this?

not even close to what i said. here's the senario. st james up by 24 points in a dual, random draw puts moeder as last match vs. a last minute-jv- fill in kid with no experience. promise you that gym begins to empty out. i don't think people like watching dancing bears anymore than they stick around to watch taylor mop the mat with some freshman in his first varsity match. again it's not the weight class that empties the stands, it's the last match of a dual, period. the same reason football stands are empty in the 4th quarter, baseball stands in the ninth inning, and so one. sure you are going to get premier match-ups that will keep some fans around, you are still going to see them leave too.

I missed your point. We only wrestle one dual a year so everyone stays. Most of the tournaments we attend go in traditional order as does the state tournament. The 285's are wrestled before an empty gym. In Derby they random draw (wink, wink) and you get Caldwell vs. Nelson for your last match. No one left the building.

As far as never knowing the outcome, LancerLou, you are right. When it is 1-1 and no one has shot a takedown it is anyone's match! In 2009 the Derby 285 match was decided in OT by the official when he called BC's Marquez for his second stalling call. The first warning came when the overzealous zebra pulled the cowardly double fist, both wrestlers are stalling, doozy. Now that was exciting!

I guess I have been spoiled by watching athletic college heavyweights who do take shots and wrestle a very active style. I think the typical heavyweight body-type and style of wrestling is changing for the better. Just my experience.

Jockeys By Wins
Name Wins Earnings
Russell Baze* 11165 $172,215,786
Laffit Pincay, Jr. 9530 $237,120,625
William Shoemaker 8833 $123,375,524
Pat Day 8803 $297,914,839
David Gall 7396 $ 24,972,821
Chris McCarron 7141 $263,985,905
Angel Cordero, Jr. 7057 $164,570,627
Jorge Velasquez 6795 $125,544,379
Earlie Fires* 6470 $ 86,396,277
Sandy Hawley 6450 $ 88,709,492

We are kinda getting off topic here, but coming from a family that runs race horses. The jockey gets 10-15% of the total money listed.

Here is a good example of what Headup was describing and I was there. I think most people were there and were very excited all the way thru. 2009 was pretty much the same with Heavyweight Jake Woten coming thru to seal the victory for Kansas that year.:

14th Annual Metro Classic
by Randy Hinderliter

The METRO Report
March 7th, 2006

First things first, I need to apologize for the tardiness of this report. Tuesday night I was wore slick from all the emotions of the night. I had great intentions to complete my report on Wednesday but family comes first. My Mom’s had a few health issues pop up that required some attention.

What a night! I’m still pumped over the performance of Team Kansas in this event. The event was the 14th Annual Metro Classic, billed as the Battle at the Border. There were 15 bouts lined up between competitors from Missouri and Kansas. The arena was the gym of Kansas City Kansas Community College and the field of battle was a wrestling mat that divided the partisan sides and their supporters.

The Showme’s have won this event 9 times with Kansas winning only 4. Recently, the Kansan’s have taken a real beating. Team Missouri has won for the last 3 years and by a total score of 124-44.

The first bout was contested at 112 pounds and had Topeka’s Larry Perez pitted against Kyle Caswell of Lee’s Summit. If you looked at the record of accomplishments you might say Perez, was the favorite but as we know, the match takes place on the mat. Larry was working hard for the under hook and was trying to gain the takedown. But Caswell was equal to the challenge and scored his own takedown as the period ended. Perez selected to start the second in the neutral position. Caswell’s defense of the upper body tactics was pretty sound and Caswell scored a takedown and a 3-point near fall to close out the period. Again, neutral was the starting place and Larry decided to change his attacks. Perez scored two takedowns with an escape for the Showme in between. Too little, too late, Caswell earns the 4-8 decision giving Missouri the lead in the team score, 0-3.

Next we move to 119 pounds and the match between Kenneth Livengood of Blue Valley North and Oak Park’s, Jacob Nay. Sometimes, wrestlers have a hard time showing their skill against certain types of competitors. This was the case as Livengood could not figure out a way to attack Nay. Twice, an outside fireman’s victimized Kenneth, as the first stanza ended at 1-4. Livengood, who had 32 pins on the season, was in the position he probably preferred as Nay selected to wrestle from the bottom position. Livengood was firing bullets and Nay was dodging them. Kenneth got out of position a bit and the Showme capitalized by reversing the Kansan to his back for the 5-point reversal. The third period began with Kenneth on top, trailing 1-9. Again the bullets flew but the Showme’s defense was solid. A late stalling warning was of no consequence as Nay chalked up the major decision. The team score was 0-7!

At 125 pounds there was a change in the original roster for Kansas. Nick Shumate was ill and Jeff Ferguson of Blue Valley was the replacement against Mitchell Bainbridge of Odessa. Ferguson did not have the full training regiment of Team Kansas but he really performed admirably. Bainbridge scored the major decision, 6-16. The Kansan had yet to dot the board and Missouri had 11 tallies.

Traditionally, Team Kansas has excelled at the lower weights. Missouri was leading the takedown battle 2-11. From my viewpoint, there is a direct relationship between takedowns versus mat wins. In years past Kansas often had the lead after the first few bouts. But this year was going to different … how different … I had no idea!

Fort Scott’s Josh Sharp was matched against Jacob Gaston from Oak Grove. It looked to be a tough draw for Josh as Gaston held 4 single-season records for the vaunted Oak Park. This bout was the first real barnburner of the night as Josh earned the first points with a takedown directly to the back and the early 5-point lead. Gaston did earn a reversal as the period ended. Gaston opted bottom and quickly scored another reversal. One of Gaston’s school records was for pins and one could see a bit of his arsenal as he was hooking up the Spladdle. But Sharp felt it coming and expertly held off the near fall and scored himself on a reversal. The score was 7-4 as the whistle blew to start the action filled third period. Sharp started on bottom and Gaston was working the Spladdle again. Same song, second verse, as Josh reversed it and gained back points. This time Sharp allowed the escape but scored again with a takedown. Sharp wins convincingly, 15-6! Team score was now 4-11.

Kansas was showing some life as they sent Tyler Madl from Blue Valley to the mat against Cody Miller from Winnetonka. Madl shot on the whistle and scored the takedown. If Miller was asleep, he was awake now and scored on the equalizing reversal. Tyler earned the escape and was in deep on a leg attack. Tyler elevated the Showme and brought him back to the mat with a fair amount of force. I was waiting for the Missouri ref who was in charge of this bout, to signal the illegal slam but instead we awarded the takedown and began to count back points. The first period ended, Madl was awarded 3 back points, the Missouri staff and fans were hot, and the Sunflower’s were in disbelief that the pin was not earned. Tyler held the 8-2 lead and Miller closed the score with a reversal in the second. In the third, Madl was allowed the escape but the scoring and the match ended. The team score was now, 7-11.

The match up at 135 pounds had received a bit of extra excitement as St. Thomas Aquinas’s Andy Hurla was pitted against an undefeated State champ from Park Hill, Eric Graham. Hurla was also a State Champ as the wrestlers stepped to the line. It was Graham picking up the early lead as he scored the first period takedown. Missouri selected bottom and earned an escape in the second. Hurla opted down and was wrestling hard. With about 38 seconds remaining, Graham was called for locked hands. The Missouri staff contested this call but the ruling stood. The action continued with clock winding down. With 14 seconds left Hurla exploded, he scored the reversal and caught Graham on his back. As the clock read zeros, the official signaled that Hurla had gained 2 back points. This earned Andy Hurla the victory. The team score was now, 10-11. The Kansas crowd was pumped!

This dual had two sets of twins, one from Missouri and one from Kansas. The match at 140 pounds would have Park Hill’s Brian Graham pitted against Sean Flynn of Lansing. Perhaps Graham had a bit of extra incentive and opened with a takedown in the first. Flynn opted for neutral and Brian Graham again scored the takedown. The Showme was allowed to escape as the third period began and again scored the takedown and this time Flynn was allowed to escape making the score 1-7. Flynn was looking for the win and in the waning seconds took a shot, which Graham countered. The takedown earned Graham the major decision and a 10-15, team lead.

Hunter Madl represented Blue Valley as he was pitted against Brian McClure from Cameron. McClure was a 3-time State Champ. Hunter did not have the state titles but had plenty of heart and he was loaded for bear. Madl fired first and scored a takedown and had McClure in peril of giving up back points. But McClure was cool, he earned a reversal with 3 back points, allowed the escape and showed his skills and scored a takedown. After the initial shot was warded off McClure opened up his offense. McClure put on a takedown clinic, closing the match with a 10-23 point victory. Team score, 10-19.

At 152 pounds the contestants were Matt Bailes of Kansas City Turner versus Mat Koelling of Oak Park. Bailes found himself trailing the Showme as he gave up the early takedown. However, Bailes quickly got the points back with a reversal. The score was tied as the second period began with Matt working from bottom. Matt was allowed to escape and Koelling earned another takedown. Once again though, Bailes reversed and took the lead as the second period ended. Missouri opted neutral and scored the takedown on Matt again but this time, he locked up a nearside cradle. Matt did a great job fighting off the pin and earned the re-start with one minute left. Matt was trailing 5-9 and was feeling a bit under the weather. Aliensteve went to the alter and I assume, was asking for help from the R.A.O.S. but alas help must come from within. Matt was given the escape; Koelling earned the takedown, before Matt was allowed another escape. The match ended, 7-11. Good game Matt. Team score was 10-22, Missouri’s biggest lead of the night.

DeSoto’s Neil Erisman is one of the finest young men I’ve had the privilege of meeting. It was that young man who was pitted against Blue Springs Jeff Bowman. This was a match up of State Champions, at 160 pounds. Erisman is arguably as disciplined of a takedown technician as we have in Kansas and he demonstrated that skill early. But Erisman is also a “grinding” rider. The final score of this match was not indicative of the dominance this Oklahoma State signee displayed. Erisman wins, 7-3 and closes the team score, to 13-22.

At 171 pounds we had 2-time State Champ, Nolan Kellerman from Lawrence versus Joe Henson from Platte County. Again in this bout we are reminded that this is a wrestling contest and that on any given evening, anyone can be beaten. For the first time tonight we had a real contrast in body and styles. The first period ended with a scoreless tie. The second started with Henson selecting bottom, a reversal by Henson, and an escape by Kellerman. The third started with Kellerman down and quickly earning the tying escape. With 47 seconds left Kellerman was trying for the takedown but it was earned by Henson who also scored 2-points on the near fall cradle. The Showme wins 2-6 and leads, 13-25.

Our second match at 171 pounds pitted Jimmy Stewart of Paola against Chris Brewer of Lee’s Summit West. State Champ, Jimmy Stewart was in control of this match from the beginning. But probably the move that impressed me the most was a standing “merkel” (side-by-side). It was Jimmy Stewart with the decisive major decision, 13-3. The team score closes to 17-25.


At 189 pounds we have Old Dominion signee and Holton product Jesse Strawn battling against Mitch Barnett from Liberty. In the first period, it was Strawn scoring the takedown and Barnett scoring the reversal. In the second, Missouri selected bottom and remained there for the entire period. In the third, Strawn reversed the starting position and trapped the Showme on his back for a 2-point near fall. The score was 6-2 and with 1.05 remaining Barnett worked for the escape. Strawn’s conditioning was fading and with 12 seconds left, Barnett scored a takedown but Jesse held on for the win. The team score was getting interesting, 20-25.

If Team Kansas had any hope, Olathe North’s Calen Born had to keep the momentum rolling. Calen has twice been a runner-up at the State tourney and his foe, Kyle Rose of Park Hill, was also a two-time runner-up. This match was probably the final match in one of their careers and one of them would go out a winner. The bout started with both battling but the period ended scoreless. Born opted to wrestle from the bottom position and quickly worked the escape. Born opened up and scored a takedown and a 3-point near fall. The Kansas crowd was cheering and Calen acknowledged. Calen closed out the bout earning an 8-0 win. Team score, 23-25!

In 1994 with one bout remaining, the teams were tied at 24. Missouri won that dual with a pin at heavyweight.

In 2000, Kansas had the lead with the heavies to go. Missouri again won the bout and the match.

What would the result be this year? The match, the dual, and the hopes of the Sunflowers, were riding on the shoulders of a heavyweight from Ottawa.

Both sides of the gymnasium were riotous as the final combatants stepped into the ring. Team Missouri had Levi Thompson from Raymore-Peculiar. Team Kansas offered Levi Bowen from Ottawa. The pressure was intense. Whether they wanted it or not … they were in the limelight! Perhaps the pressure was too intense.

In the first period both wrestlers seemed to be tentative … not wanting to make a critical mistake. As the period was winding down, Bowen tried a toss, Thompson ended up on top but they were out-of-bounds … no score.

Thompson selected bottom and earned the critical first point in the bout. The wrestlers were battling for position as the second period ended.

It was Bowen’s choice and he opted down. Initially, the decision looked to be a mistake. Thompson threw in the legs, for the Cowboy or Surfboard and was working Bowen over. Bowen was warned for stalling about midway through the period but Thompson was getting high. Bowen earned a reversal after escaping out the back. But Thompson quickly scrambled to his feet to gain the tie. With 43 seconds left, Bowen got to Thompson’s body and cut the angle he gained control but they were out-of-bounds. Thompson was now avoiding the ties and gave up a stall warning. Regulation time ended.

Thompson left the mat circle to tend to some blood and perhaps didn’t ask for permission first. Several Kansas fans were pleading the case to win the match on that infraction. I, and a few others, didn’t want to win the bout that way.

Overtime began, the Kansans were on their feet, and the Showme’s were on theirs. The Kansas chant of Bowen, Bowen, Bowen was deafening. Bowen was digging for under hooks and Thompson was backing out. Restart. Bowen still digging, the fans were chanting, Bowen gets to the body, gains an angle, and drives for the winning takedown.

Man, what a bout … what a dual!

Final Impressions! I’ve attended all but one of the 14 duals in this series. In that time of course the tides have changed, and changed, and changed. Some years Missouri is dominant and some years Kansas reigns. Missouri does lead this dual, 9 to 5. Clearly, Missouri did not field one of their dominant teams and frankly, neither did Kansas. We held our own this year!

I truly think as a team we are doing better on our feet. You never know but I think a lot of credit goes to the coaching staff this year. From what I’ve heard from team members, the hardest practices a few wrestlers had all year, were in preparation for this competition. So a big thanks to Jeremy Goebel of Tonganoxie, Russ Hermreck of Paola, Eric DeYoe of Olathe North, and Beau Vest of Topeka High.

One final thought, two of the Kansas wrestlers, Josh Sharp and Calen Born, attended a Bronze clinic that I instructed just two days before this dual. I think it speaks volumes of these young men that they are deciding to share their knowledge.



14th Annual Metro Classic
Team Rosters & Results


Wt. Kansas Wrestler Record State
Place School Missouri Wrestler Record State
Place School Match Team
112 Larry Perez 38-2 3rd Topeka High School Kyle Caswell 37-9 5th Lee's Summit HS 4-8 0-3
119 Kenneth Livengood 43-2 1st Blue Valley North Jacob Nay 42-7 2nd Oak Park High School 1-9 0-7
125 Jeff Furguson 42-3 3rd Blue Valley West HS Mitchell Bainbridge 40-5 1st Odessa High School 5-16 0-11
125 Josh Sharp 25-6 SQ Ft. Scott High School Jacob Gaston 51-8 3rd Oak Grove High School 15-6 4-11
130 Tyler Madl 27-6 5th Blue Valley High School Cody Miller 26-6 3rd Winnetonka High School 9-4 7-11
135 Andy Hurla 31-3 1st St. Thomas Aquinas HS Eric Graham 33-0 1st Park Hill High School 5-4 10-11
140 Sean Flynn 40-2 2nd Lansing High School Brian Graham 43-1 1st Park Hill High School 1-9 10-15
145 Hunter Madl 39-8 4th Blue Valley High School Brian McClure 42-0 1st Cameron High School 12-21 10-19
152 Matt Bailes 25-5 3rd Turner High School Mat Koelling 39-10 3rd Oak Park High School 7-11 10-22
160 Neil Erisman 46-1 1st Desoto High School Jeff Bowman 55-2 1st Blue Springs High School 7-3 13-22
171 Nolan Kellerman 21-0 1st Lawrence High School Joe Henson 35-7 3rd Platte County HS 2-6 13-25
171 Jimmy Stewart 31-2 1st Paola High School Chris Brewer 39-6 SQ Lee's Summit West HS 13-3 17-25
189 Jesse Strawn 44-0 1st Holton High School Mitch Barnett 34-7 3rd Liberty High School 6-5 20-25
215 Calen Born 38-2 2nd Olathe North High School John Ott 54-4 2nd Blue Springs High School 8-0 24-25
275 Levi Bowen 28-2 2nd Ottawa High School Levi Thompson 22-6 4th Ray-Pec High School 4-2 27-25

Kansas Coaches:
Jeremy Gobel--Tonganoxie High School
Russ Hermreck--Paola High School
Eric Deyoe--Olathe North High School
Beau Vest--Topeka High School Missouri Coaches:
Gary Mayabb--Oak Park High School
Bill Erneste--Park Hill High School
Reggie Burress--Platte County High School

You have to admit that Zach Rey, the reigning NCAA champion, is BORING. Huge and a total bull, but boring.

Apples and oranges. A dual that is undecided heading into HWT is MUCH better attended than a tournament final. It has almost everything to do with style and it is flat out undeniable that the wrestling action declines in the heavier weights. Even an exception cannot perform with the same speed, using the same arsenal of moves as the majority of weights. Having said that, I like watching quality heavy's. It's kinda like watching a pitching dual vs. an 11-10 game. If you love the sport, you appreciate all the styles.

The reason stands are clearing out by heavyweight is the fact that their teams wrestler or team is finished and it is time to leave. The majority of fans are there to support their team and their team alone. Ya, if they catch a few good matches along the way great.

I would bet a lot of money that the stands would be just as empty if 103 was the last weight to wrestle.

Is there a rule against random draws for weekly 2 team duals?

Eric, I read again what Headup said and I think he is basically making the same point as your statement.

Apples and oranges. A dual that is undecided heading into HWT is MUCH better attended than a tournament final.

He never said he thought that Heavyweight was a more exciting style. You are right it is generally slower but that analogy you gave of the baseball defensive game was good.

A boring match can happen in all weight classes even in the faster lighter weights. Remember the 2009 125 NCAA DI title match between Troy Nickerson of Cornell and Paul Donahoe of Edinboro. There was not a lot of action in that match and there was plenty of complaining about it on the national forum after it was over. I also watched the Pre Season College All Star match a couple of years ago where the heavyweight match was probably the most action packed of the evening due to a very mobile aggressive heavyweight with Olympic style experience from I believe Nebraska-Kearney.

I agree the action is too slow in most heavyweight matches. Personally I believe the pushout rule would improve that some. In college I am also not crazy about the riding time rule and would like to see it either eliminated or changed.

I think we need riding time in high school matches. Too many kids content to sit on bottom with a 1 point lead. Drives me crazy. Eliminate riding time in college? come on husker fan.

Well believe me I am not the only one that thinks the riding time rule should be changed in college. I have read it suggested by many including Cael Sanderson.

The purpose is to get more action into the match. People say we need more action to attract more TV viewers and that most TV viewers do not want to watch wrestlers ride another wrestler on the mat for a minute or more. And this is basically the same thought that you are expressing that watching a wrestler sit on the bottom with a l point lead drives you crazy.

I would like to see more scoring in wrestling period. I do not necessarily think we should completely eliminate riding time in college wrestling but how about giving a wrestler a point once they have built up a minute of riding time and then putting them on their feet. Also put in the pushout rule and I think that would increase scoring. I am pretty sure Cael Sanderson was in favor of that too.

Here are the changes that I saw Cael Sanderson advocate on his website in his Ask the Professor question section:

4/10/2008
Bill(Des Moines, IA): As a long time fan of wrestling I constantly bring friends to meets to try and turn them into wrestling fans. I've thought for a while that our sport needs to make some changes to make it easier to follow. I'm interested in your opinion and any suggestions you have?
Cael: "Bill, I agree that we need to make some changes. It really blows my mind that a regular season college basketball game gets more viewers then an event like the Big 12 Wrestling Finals. If it didn't our Big 12 Finals would be on tv live instead of the game. That's reality and we need to fight to step up our sport.
I frequently ask myself why and what can we learn from more popular sports. It seems simple, the games that are easy to play and easy to follow are usually the most popular. We all want more media coverage, but we must give the media something they want to cover. It's a business.

However, opportunities to watch wrestling are continuously growing. Growing up in Utah, my brothers and I were only able to see a couple college wrestling matches. BYU was 35 minutes from my hometown so we saw them compete a few times. Other then that, the only college wrestling we watched was from my dad recording the NCAA finals at 2 or 3 in the morning several weeks after the actual tournament. Consider the differences now--it's awesome. ESPN now airs the quarterfinals, semi-finals, placement matches and finals. Wrestling fans nationwide can see matches on the Big 10 Network, CSTV, and probably other stations as well. With the internet and live streaming, a wrestling fan can watch most colleges matches. Internet sites like youtube and flowrestling are also excellent means to watch matches that we simply couldn't, not too long ago. What a great time it is for wrestling.

Bill, you're not the only one looking for change. There are a lot of people talking right now about how we can make wrestling more exciting and more fan friendly. I believe by making a few changes we could accomplish this and take a big step in the right direction. This in return would help us develop a bigger fan base.

People don't watch what they don't understand. These are some thoughts and suggestions that I have given to the NCAA Rules Committee. The NCAA Rules Committee has a very tough job and obviously as a coach I really appreciate the time and effort they put into our great sport.

Here are my thoughts:

#1- We need to change the season of college wrestling. Right now our conference and NCAA tournament compete with arguably the biggest sporting event of the year--March Madness Basketball. Actually, I wouldn't say we compete--we share the left over scraps. My suggestion is to start the season Jan. 1 and have the NCAA tourney in April. Maybe allow open tournaments in December. Right now our season covers all three of our school's student breaks--Thanksgiving, Christmas, and Spring Break. That is tough on the student-athletes academically. This isn't a new idea, it's been floating around for awhile but I believe it would be great for the sport.

#2- Rule changes: Wrestling is a tough sport to officiate. There are so many judgment calls. The two most inconsistent calls in my opinion are "stalling" and "fleeing." Basically each referee calls both differently then every other referee. This is frustrating for coaches and athletes but more importantly it makes it difficult for fans to follow. Both rules are difficult to enforce so here are my suggestions and thoughts:

A) Eliminate riding time. Here's why: right now we encourage wrestlers in the top position to hold their opponent down for one minute to get an extra point. This is boring. By eliminating riding time we eliminate the main reason to hold an opponent down. Back points are enough encouragement for a wrestler to try and put their opponent on their back. The hypocritical part of the riding point is that riding an opponent just to hold them down is stalling. So essentially we are rewarding stalling with riding time, and therefore, encouraging it.

B) Eliminate the escape point. There are positives and negatives here but I think the positives outweigh the negatives. By eliminating the escape point, we eliminate the need to hold someone down and that would encourage takedowns. In theory, a takedown would now be worth more if you consider the escape making a takedown worth 1. The negative side is that the escape point does bring some excitement to the sport in the last seconds of the periods and mat wrestling would decline. However, there would be more wrestling on the feet and more attempts at takedowns. Plus, we would better prepare our wrestlers to make the transition to freestyle. Right now it is very difficult for our college wrestlers to step out of folkstyle and make the adjustment to international wrestling.

C) Eliminate ride out overtime procedures and make the winner get a takedown. I don't know anyone who likes the :30 ride out overtime procedure. When regulation time ends, start the two wrestlers on their feet in the middle of the mat and let them decide who the winner will be with a takedown. The concern might be the uncertain length of the overtime. Big deal! Uncertainty is fun. However, wrestlers would be a lot more willing to take risks at a takedown if they know it's the only way to win. One big problem I have with the ride out overtime procedure is the same problem I have with the riding point. We reward a wrestler for holding their opponent down. However, holding an opponent down with no intent to turn them to their back is considered stalling, right? Again, in a way we are rewarding the wrestler who does a better job stalling. Put them in the center and let them wrestle to a takedown. That makes conditioning more of factor as well which is something wrestlers and fans pride themselves on.

D)- Have a push out/ step out be worth one point. That would simplify the rules for the fans and make the sport more exciting. Right now the two most inconsistent and tough calls for refs are stalling and fleeing. Adding the push out rule would almost eliminate those two calls, or at least make them much easier to call. The push out would only be worth one point. No way should someone stepping out of bounds be worth as much as an actual takedown. This would also better prepare our wrestlers for international competition. We would have to decide how the push out rule applies in the top/ bottom position. I feel the pushout would only apply in the neutral position.

E)- Don't allow wrestlers to lay on their backs without being penalized back points. The object in wrestling is to put your opponent on their back. The sport has evolved. Wrestlers are very good at countering takedowns and reversals by rolling around and creating stalemates. Some of the time, putting their own back on the mat to do it. I think wrestlers should get a scramble grace period of a few seconds but after that, the referee should start counting back points. This would make it easier for the officials and make it less confusing for spectators. At no time in wrestling should a wrestler be allowed to expose their own back for an extended time and not be penalized for it.

F)- Coaches should be allowed to question the referee as many times as they feel is necessary. Coaches should not be limited to only a few opportunities at a tournament, and one at a dual meet, to fight for their student-athletes before they are deducted a team point. A coach should be able to fight for his athlete, now we can't. Of course the referee should be able to penalize a coach who is out of hand, but a coach should be able to question a ref. Let's face it, there are a ton of "judgment calls" in wrestling and refs do make mistakes. Coaches should be able to question judgment. Fans enjoy watching coaches "get after refs" almost as much if not more then actual wrestling so I believe it would be more fun for spectators. Coaches and ref disputes are a big part of sports. Why is it that in wrestling, arguably the sport with the most judgment calls, coaches can't do their job? Coaches and referee disputes are part of the fun.

#3- I think the NCAA should have a set and standard mat size. Right now there is a huge variety in mat size. I can't imagine any other sport that allows the host school to decide how big or small the playing surface is. I understand that very few schools could go out and buy a new mat but this is something that the NCAA could give the school 10 years to comply with. If you think of the difference in the square footage of the minimum and maximum mat size allowed--it's huge.

#4- Seed the individuals in the NCAA tournament to 16 instead of 12. That would seed the entire first round. There is a huge difference between the 13th ranked guy and the perceived 32nd ranked guy. It is more fair for the individuals competing and more fair for the team race to just seed to 16. Plus, it would not take much more work.

#5- Give wrestling fans the best seats at the NCAA tournament. Right now the best seats don't go to the loud fans representing their favorite teams. One side of the front bottom arena goes to different wrestling organizations to sell??.....I think. I'm not 100% sure who gets the seats but they aren't team fan sections. The other bottom front side goes to the host school. But at the NCAA tournament, especially when we use the same location again and again, the host team should not get all of the best seats. Right now, after the two best sides are given out, then they give the teams that do the best at the previous tournament the best corners. Please understand that I know little about the work and organization that goes into the tournament so I'm not trying to criticize. I am very appreciative of all the work that goes into our great sport.

However, the way we are forced to sell NCAA tickets to our fans makes it the opposite of fan friendly. Fans have to buy their tickets before Christmas. People who aren't die hard fans have little chance to jump on the bandwagon and become fans if their team starts doing well. If a team does well at their conference and the average sports fan from their university wants to go to the NCAA tournament, it's not going to happen. I'm not sure if we can correct this but it's something I have been thinking about that would help wrestling build more fans.

Thanks, Bill, good question.

I love wrestling!! There is no sport that compares to it!!

Cael "

Some of these names look familiar. Not so sure raising the weight from 103 to 106 was needed. Just keep an eye on some of these guys when they were in high school and see where they end up later - 4 or 5 years down the road.


2006 Fila Cadet Nationals
42 kg/92.5 lbs.
1st - Jamie Clark (Ohio) over Max Nowry (Illinois) Dec 9-2,5-0
3rd - Cody Tyler (Missouri) over Damonte Riley (Illinois) TF 7-1,6-0
5th - Zack Zweifel (Washington) over Alex Kostenborder (Oregon) Dec 2-2,3-0,5-2
Pool A

46 kg/101.25 lbs.
1st - Logan Steiber (Ohio) over Eric Chandler (Florida) Fall 0:31
3rd - Andrew Long (Iowa) over Jon Morrison (Illinois) TF 7-1,7-0
5th - Grant Sutter (Wisconsin) over Jacob Ballweg (Iowa) Dec 2-4,5-1,4-2
FILACadet Freestyle Results
Event Results
FILA Cadet - 42 kg / 92.5 lbs. Results
Guaranteed Places
1st Place - Hunter Stieber of Ohio
2nd Place - Robert Deutsch of New Jersey
3rd Place - Ty Mitch of Ohio
4th Place - Alex Kostenborder of Oregon
5th Place - Valyen Rauser of Montana
6th Place - Vincent Rodriguez of California
1st Place Match
Hunter Stieber (Ohio) over Robert Deutsch (New Jersey) Dec 6-3,2-1
3rd Place Match
Ty Mitch (Ohio) over Alex Kostenborder (Oregon) Dec 1-0,0-1,2-0
5th Place Match
Valyen Rauser (Montana) over Vincent Rodriguez (California) Dec 3-3,0-6,7-5

FILA Cadet - 46 kg / 101.25 lbs. Results
Guaranteed Places
1st Place - Jamie Clark of Ohio
2nd Place - Gus Sako of Ohio
3rd Place - Jesse Thielke of Wisconsin
4th Place - Matt Cavallaris of Illinois
5th Place - Ryak Finch of Arizona
6th Place - Scott Mantua of Maryland
1st Place Match
Jamie Clark (Ohio) over Gus Sako (Ohio) Dec 3-0,6-0
3rd Place Match
Jesse Thielke (Wisconsin) over Matt Cavallaris (Illinois) TF 7-0,7-0
5th Place Match
Ryak Finch (Arizona) over Scott Mantua (Maryland) TF 6-0,6-0




FILA Cadet Men`s Freestyle - 39-42 KG / 86-92.5 LBS Results
Guaranteed Places
2nd Place - Lincoln Olson of Michigan
4th Place - Aaron Dick of Minnesota
6th Place - Ethan Koan of Missouri
6th Place - Gannon Volk of Minnesota
6th Place - Carlos Fuentez of Illinois
6th Place - Sean Augello of Illinois
1st Place Match
This match has not been wrestled yet.
3rd Place Match
This match has not been wrestled yet.
5th Place Match
This match has not been wrestled yet.

2011 FILA Cadet Men`s Freestyle - 46 KG / 101.25 LBS Results
Guaranteed Places
2nd Place - Tommy Thorn of Minnesota
4th Place - Matthew Kolodzik of Ohio
6th Place - Stevan Micic of Indiana
6th Place - Matthew Garelli of Illinois
6th Place - Joseph Velliquette of Missouri
6th Place - Tommy Pawelski of Illinois
1st Place Match
This match has not been wrestled yet.
3rd Place Match
This match has not been wrestled yet.
5th Place Match
This match has not been wrestled yet.

Palatine, IL
April 23 - 26, 2003

FILACadet Freestyle Results
Event Results
42 kg
1st - Patrick McCaffrey (Pennsylvania) dec. Kelly Kubec (Washington), 9-3
3rd - Scott O'Donnell (Missouri) dec. Ian Moser (Delaware), 3-1
5th - Kody Pudil (Iowa) tech. fall Jason Tollari (Iowa), 11-0

Pool A
Kelly Kubec (Washington)
Kody Pudil (Iowa)
Cort Lawton (Illinois)
Scott O�Donnell (Missouri)

Pool B
Jason Tollari (Iowa)
David Staines (Louisiana)
Patrick McCaffrey (Pennsylvania)
Ian Moser (Delaware)

46 kg
1st - Henry Cejudo (Arizona) tech. fall Nick Fanthorpe (Illinois), 10-0
3rd - Jimmy Kennedy (Illinois) tech. fall Brian Spangler (Illinois), 10-0
5th - Matt Rosen (Virginia) dec. Jake Nay (Missouri), 5-1

& University National Championships
Evanston, IL
April 13 - 15, 2005

FILACadet Freestyle Results
Here are a few more names that might be familiar who started in HS at very light weights and have done pretty decent as they mature.

Event Results
42 kg/92.5 lbs.
1st - David Taylor (Ohio) def. Grant Sutter (Wisconsin), 7-0, 6-0
3rd - Jon Morrison (Indiana) def. Eric Chandler (Florida), 2-0, 7-0
5th - Andrew Long (Iowa) by fall over Nathan McCormick (Kansas), 2:30

The new weight class were approved by the NFHS Board of Directors. The NFHS wrestling rules committee approved the upward shift of the weight classes,begginning with the 103 - pound class moving to 106-pounds, which resulted in new weights for 10 ofthe 14 classes. The 14 weight classes approved by the committee for the 2011-12 are as follow: 106,113,120,126,132,138,145,152,160,170,182,195,220 and 285. The change in weight class resulted from a three-to-four year process utilizing data from the (NWCA) Optimal Performance Calculator, said Dale Pleimann, chair of the NFHS Wrestling Rules Committee and former assistant director of the Missouri State High School Activities Association. "The rules committee was able to analyze data from 200,000 wrestlers across the country, with the goal to create weight classes that have approximately seven percent of the wrestlers in each weight class. RMG

At Fila cadets in Akron, OH last week...there were 54 entrants from 187.25 and up. If those contestants were competing in the new HS weights a few might drop to 182, the rest would be 195, 220, or 285. (4weights). In comparison there were 96 entrants in just two weights of 119 and 127.25. I understand this is freestyle wrestling and not in season HS wrestling but I bring this up to make two points.

1. There are more kids wrestling in the lower and middle weights that lost a weight, than the upper weight classes that gained one.

2. This change in HS weights caters to the bigger weights that clearly have less depth and less kids that are "hardcore" wrestlers.

Fila cadet is Fr, So and alot of Jr's. Older Jr's and Sr's could add some to the upper weights. So I added the Fila Jr's numbers in as well even though those include young men all the way up to 20.

total for 119 and 127.25 in cadet, and 121 and 132 in Jr's (2 weights each) was 156 wrestlers.

Total for 187 and up in cadet, and 187 and up in Jr's. (3 wieghts in each) is 141.

So even including 19 and 20 years college kids the two lower weights where the new HS weights have targeted for a loss, have 10% more wrestlers than 3 higher weights where a weight class was added. And this is comparing 2 weights to 3.

Bottom line the 125-160 classes are the most competitive, deepest and have the most total participants. It makes no sense to cater to kids that have not in most cases put in the 10 years plus of hardcore dedication to the sport, but rather are recruited from the football team to fill the upper weights. Sure there are exceptions, but for every kid 200 plus that is a hardcore wrestler there are 10 140 pounders that are that same level of dedication.

There is nothing we can do about it now. We live with it and go on, but don't tell me this is good for the sport and those kids that focus on wrestling.

JMO...with a few stats. Not trying to be mean, just protective of the kids that I have seen put their blood sweat and tears for years into a sport only to see opportunities given to kids that in alot of cases are participating as their 2nd or 3rd sport.

How can you look at data and throw the middle finger up in the air? They have basically taken a weight class right out of the middle of the bell curve and thrown it out to the right side of the distribution. Surely they are going to tell us that high school wrestler's weights are not a bell curve? 130,135,140 were replaced with 132 and 138 to give another class to a less dense population 182, 195, 225, 285 (was 189, 215, 285). Just plain stupid.

The NF did same thing (eliminated a weight class in the middle) for the 1995 season; it lasted only that season.

Agree with Will. . .makes no sense to take a weight class from the range of weights that has the greatest number of participants.

But Kansas does NOT have to use these weights, correct?

We do not but Gary Muscleman will only let us break one rule so we don't get a vote at the NFHS meeting. How many other states don't get a vote? Montana and Texas don't adhere to their weight classes.

We could step up and have six matches in one day too but Adolf Muscleman says "NEIN".

I see the major problem with not following this rule is if states surrounding us do follow the rule; will make it difficult to compete across state lines and how it would impact certification rules; not just for Kansas wrestlers but the other states's wrestlers as well if there was across state competition using the "When in Rome. . ." rule.

Also, this is a situation where Kansas NOT having a vote on the NF rules committee could have hurt us.

Why would you not want to follow these weights? Its a long way from being statistically perfect but its one step closer. .... If the median kid weighs around 148 lbs, we need 7 weights above and 7 below 148 to make it right. .... If I counted right thats what we have.

<now the rest of the story>

I do agree its bad to lose a weight in the middle. But its not the fault of the 180 lb kid. Believe it or not 15% of 18 yr olds weigh between 165 and 185. Thats 2 new classes for 15%. The smallest 15% get FOUR of the new weight classes. So I would suggest the problem just might be the distribution of the bottom 7 classes.

***boring personal story to counteract "my kid is so small" stories***
Our team this year had 13 wrestlers on the roster in the top 6 weights (thats not counting the eneligible and at least 2 that didnt wrestle because of no varsity spot) - 9 wrestlers in the bottom 8. Had at least 2 deep in every top weight - couldnt fill bottom ones (103). If we had these new weights we might have had a 106 lber and would have had no problem filling the new upper weight. Net result - 2 wrestlers with new oportunity to wrestle, middle weight guy bumped to JV were he really belonged, 112 and 19 lber could have ate one more lb, and a heck of a lot tougher team.

One thing that I wish there was a way to implement in high school varsity wrestling is to allow high school teams to bring more than one wrestler in a weight class to varsity tournaments. That way you can avoid situations where you have two legitimate State placers in the same weight class but are restricted to bringing one for most tournaments and the State qualifying tournament series. In most other sports with individual high school competition you can take more than one athlete to events including State. For example you can take more than one shot put athlete or long jumper to State as well as cross country runners.

I have made this point before but I have actually seen it work in college tournaments now that my son is at Baker University a NAIA school. The colleges often take several wrestlers per weight class to open tournaments during the season. Also the NAIA allows twelve wrestlers instead of ten to the national qualifying tournaments, so you can qualify twelve wrestlers. They do not have to bring a wrestler in every weight class so you could fill the twelve by bringing two in six weight class or another combination.

From Montana High School Athletic Association

*Cooperative Sponsorship
1. Each division will hold a divisional or wrestling tournament each year to
determine the entries for the State Class A Wrestling Tournament. Class A
schools will be allowed to enter a maximum of nineteen (19) wrestlers in the
divisional tournament. Each school shall have the opportunity to enter a
maximum of four extra wrestlers and shall have no more than two (2)
wrestlers in a weight class. Team points, at both the divisional and state
level, shall be awarded to each wrestler. However, only advancement and
place points shall be awarded when two wrestlers from the same school
meet each other head to head. All nineteen wrestlers from each team have
the opportunity to advance to state.

Thank you for posting that information. That is exactly the type of system that I was suggesting. I think with these impending weight changes that the Kansas High School Athletic Association should seriously consider such a system to give additional opportunities for our high school wrestlers. This type of system really works in college open tournaments and for the NAIA national tournament series. You see NAIA wrestling All Americans from the same school and in the same weight class. Sometimes they do end up wrestling each other. In this type of system coaches would not need to worry as much about filling all the weight classes as you could just wrestle two of your best wrestlers in the same weight class if they are both naturally in that weight class. For example in Montana system it appears a team could qualify two wrestlers in just nine weight classes and one in another one to make the 19 limit. So you would not have to worry about filling four weight classes if you did not have wrestlers to fill those weight classes that year. I think if this type of system was in place there would have been less reason to have made these weight changes.

Why don't we baby the kids a little more. 2 wrestlers per weight, give me a break. I think this waters down the sport quite a bit. The best kids wrestle against the best kids. Participation? kids that don't make the line up can still participate on JV, put in their time during the offseason and see what happens the following year.

It does happen from time to time where 2 guys on the same team could both place in state at the same weight - But the second string guy can not go up 1 or 2 weights or down a weight. I have seen a few examples on the high school and college level. The situation is not normal but, it is a good problem for the high school coaches to have that problem with that kind of depth.

You are correct on this. Seaman High School back in 1986 had a state champion by the name of Scott Roush. Scott was held to JV until his senior year. He most likely would have placed at some other point. I think its a good thing. This puts ALL the best kids in the state at the varsity level.

Lazyman 1, how is that watering down the competition?

One example of this was the Goddard teams from 2007-2009 from the weights of 135- 189 you had to be close to a state champion just to make the varsity team. I would also think that Ark City had this problem in the late 80's and early 90's

I have known Scott for a number of years. I didn't realize he was a State Champion, let alone a wrestler, until about five years ago. I didn't know the circumstances until your post. Good stuff. I guess Scott doesn't talk much about it, or at least not to me.

Back to my story; I was roaming around the halls at Seaman during a Kids' tournament around that time and saw Scott's picture on the wall as a State Champ. It looked like him, younger and a bit smaller. Then I ran into him in the Coaches' room and asked him about it. I honestly had no idea until then. Just a true story, and it doesn't add much to the substance of this thread.