Spencer Wilson Ruling???

What's the status on Spencer Wilson of Topeka Seaman being ineligible for the State Tournament for the flagrant misconduct penalty that was charged against him at Regionals?

It sounds like a bad situation since this is Wilson's senior year and he has been having a up-and-down season after battling back from injuries suffered in a serious car accident.

Seaman takes 5A regional wrestling crown
Penalty to standout 182-pounder detracts from celebration

By Rick Peterson
THE CAPITAL-JOURNAL

Seaman's wrestling team had a big day Saturday in the Class 5A regional meet that it hosted, with the Vikings winning the team championship, earning five gold medals and qualifying 12 of 14 wrestlers for next weekend's state meet at Wichita.

Unfortunately for the Vikings, a bizarre ending to the marquee match of the day took a lot of luster out of Seaman's championship run.

Seaman senior Spencer Wilson, who had upset defending state champion Nick Meck of Shawnee Heights in last week's Centennial League meet, met up with Meck again Saturday in the 182-pound final.

This time it was Meck who took control, opening up a 12-3 lead late in the match. Then, with just 15 seconds remaining, Wilson made a lunging move at Meck.

The match was immediately stopped and after both officials discussed the incident and talked with both coaches, Wilson was charged with a match-ending flagrant misconduct pentalty.

All of Wilson's points earned Saturday were deducted from the Vikings' team score. More importantly, if the ruling stands, Wilson won’t be eligible to compete in the state tournament.

The Kansas State High School Activities Association was being contacted to plead Seaman's case for Wilson, but as of Saturday, the flagrant misconduct ruling stood.

"I didn't think it was a big deal, because this is his senior year,'' said Meck, who was uninjured and had a friendly chat with Wilson in the awards area after the match. "I was saying, ‘Just let it go.'

"He's one of my best friends, and I just wanted to let it go.”

Seaman coach Patrick Kelly was visibly upset by the penalty given to Wilson.

"It's tough, I'm still kind of sorting things out,'' Kelly said. "The penalty is just too severe. Nick and Spencer are great friends off the mat and have been for many years.

"I don't know what transpired for that to happen, but I just don't think the word flagrant was part of what occurred. It's compounded with the story behind Spencer (who battled back from a serious car accident) and the fact that he's a senior. It just makes it that much more tough to deal with. I've never had something like this happen before.''

While upset with the Wilson situation, Kelly was happy with the day as a whole for his Vikings, who got wins from senior Brandon Fuller (132 pounds), sophomore Daemeion Gay (138), junior Sam Mizell (145), freshman Mason Ray (152) and senior returning state champ Bryant Guillen (170).

"Overall I really was (pleased),” said Kelly, who was named the regional coach of the year. "There were some dips during the day, but it was great to see Daemeion Gay go out there and do what he did. He just keeps improving and improving and looking more and more like a wrestler, not just a terrific athlete out there.

"Sam Mizell came out and beat (Justin) Dyer (Heights), who he had gotten beat by in the dual handily, and that was just terrific. And then Mason Ray steps into the lineup and wins the regional. He looked really good and he got beat by that kid last week.”

Shawnee Heights finished second as a team, sweeping the 182-, 195- and 220-pound titles.

After Nick Meck's win, senior Ben Taliaferro won for the T-Birds at 195 pounds and junior Tyson Toelkes won at 220 pounds.

"It was a good day,'' Shawnee Heights coach Chad Parks said. "We're taking 12 out of 14. We always want all 14, but 12 out of 14 is pretty good.

"We had six finalists and I'm real happy because there's a couple of kids who were kind of on the bubble and they stepped up and decided to wrestle today. They're younger guys, so that growth is going to be big for next year.”

Topeka West got a regional championship out of sophomore 106-pounder Zach Campbell, who followed up last week's Centennial League title with another strong performance.

Nationally ranked 285-pounder Nathan Butler of Leavenworth was named the regional meet's outstanding wrestler.

The 5A state tournament will get under way at 10 a.m. Friday with the first round of competition at Hartman Arena.

Video?

Other match I read about a slam was called and kid out for season. The wrestler was allowed to finish tournament and go to state. Why is Wilson kicked out for last tournament of career? Was it worst than slam? Maybe I'm missing something. He must have grabbed other kid by ears and gave him an old fashioned head butt?

It was a headbutt
Video is on WIBW sports website

Although the severity of the action is in question, the officials on the mat came to a conclusion that will forever be their judgement call. Wilson did not get kicked out of the state tournament. By rule, when you commit FM you do NOT place so he did not qualify for state.

the headbutt wasn't even that bad!!! looked like a bad call to me.

Watching the video linked below, there seems to be no question that the Wilson kid headbutted the opponent, intentionally or not.
What a shame, the kid had to know that he was down 12-3 and time running out, and further questionable that he could even possibly have enough time to pin the other wrestler.
Should have just accepted that he would get 2nd and go to State, get another chance there.

http://www.wibw.com/sports/headlines/5A-Regional-Wrestling-From-Seaman-191550751.html[u][/u]

Don't just say it looked like a bad call and leave it at that. Get your rules book out and tell us all what the correct call is there.

Here is what I saw...

Meck had the match in hand (but when you can work head/arm like Spencer you are never out of it)

With time running out, Wilson "lunged" at Meck...the video is now posted so everyone on here can make their own judgment. The only one who knows for sure what the "intent" of the lunge was is Wilson...but my interpretation was that it was not intended to harm Meck in a "Flagrant" manner. I thought he was lunging to get a reaction from Meck that he could exploit...kind of like Meck's "spinning back fist" that doesn't hit the mark does. Because his opponents react to his motion and it sets up a double leg. Meck had two of these "spinning back fist" attempts that failed in the match up at Centennial League versus Wilson. Both of these wrestlers are dynamic and fun to watch… both of them are tough competitors in the arena. On the flip side and more importantly both of them are fine young men. It is no surprise to me that they call each other “best” friends.

After the incident occurred Wilson handled the situation "in control" (he in no way looked like someone who was “out of control” that warranted a career ending FM call to end his senior season). Seaman's coaches did not stomp their feet and act out of control... they knew that a FM call could not be argued mat side. If it were to be reversed or overturned it would have to be the decision of the referee or through an appeal to KSHSAA. The Official did initially reverse/overturn the call and changed the call to unsportsmanlike conduct (which would not of carried the same penalty as Flagrant Misconduct)...he did so on his own after consulting with the second official on the mat. Which is what Meck was asking for (if read his comments in the CJ Online article you will see for yourself…”LET IT GO”). The Shawnee Heights coaches in the corner felt differently and pleaded the case to the official to stick with his original call. After some deliberation, that is what the official did…he reversed his reversal and Spencer was called for Flagrant Misconduct.

After the “final” ruling Wilson handled himself with class...while disappointed he didn't in anyway act out of control. He discussed the ruling calmly with the official and hung his head. Meck and Wilson were both witnessed together 15 minutes after the call occurred and there appeared to be no hard feelings on either side (as reported in the article by CJ Online above).

Wilson is a good kid that has had a few tough draws in his life…this may just be the latest in that string. I am sure he will handle this situation as he has any other hurdle he has faced. What I have witnessed over the years is a young man that is willing to work with our young kids in club rooms, I have seen him officiating at tourneys on Sunday's, and he put a lot of work in to come back from a severe auto accident last Spring let alone get back to where he is at as a competitor on the mat. I have never witnessed Spencer Wilson out of control in any way…and I still say this after what I witnessed on Saturday.

I am positive that Spencer wishes he could have the “3 seconds” back on Saturday to "do over". The point of this post is to retell what occurred on Saturday with “context” and to tell the wrestling community that I am still a Spencer Wilson "fan". I do this under my own name and will stand behind him. I am not sure if Spencer will be able to get a second chance this weekend or not. That decision is above my pay grade...but I ask the wrestling community to please support this young man if he does, because I believe he deserves a second chance and he has earned all of our support for the composite of his actions both on and off the mat. I only hope when I meet my maker I am not judged by the worst “3 seconds” of my life alone. Thank you.

Mark Stanley

At WORST it was unsportsmanlike conduct. I have seen put hands in the face harder that and get told to just settle down. The official should have brought them both back to the center of the mat and told them to keep it clean.

That's the same official that was at the 321A State Tournament in Hays last year if I'm not mistaken?

Great post Mark.

This was NOT FM. A complete travesty. If there was ever a call reversed, this one should be.

Well said Mark... I agree that it is a shame to end a career that way and I hope there is something done to get him back in. Good kid/Bad break.

Let me begin by stating that I do not know the rules in reference to this, I am seeking enlightenment.

If the Seaman coaches knew better than to argue their case, knowing that the call was the official's and ONLY the officials, why then would the Shawnee Heights coaches argue for a FM call? It seems vindictive to me, since their wrestler had the match and the trip to State in his pocket, basically. Why push for the Seaman kid to be disqualified from State competition - - unless their intent was to remove any further competition from Wilson.

Further question: (I don't know, that's why I'm asking) are the official even supposed to LISTEN to arguments pro or con on a decision of this nature?

Just curious...

The official made the call. Nothing more. There aren't any rules that say you have to agree with an official's call, but there are rules that say you can't head butt your opponent. Whether or not you think the act merited FM over USC is your opinion and everyone is entitled to an opinion. Please be careful placing blame on the official. He made the call that he thought was best at the time and doesn't have the benefit of hindsight, video, or slow motion replays. He also doesn't need me to defend him, but he is a good friend and better offical. If you think he doesn't take a call like that home with him then you are sorely mistaken.

I have said this before and I will say it again, wrestlers dicatate the outcome of a match, not the official. Wrestling is full of life lessons. I feel terrible for the Seaman wrestler and can only hope that the situation has taught him a valuable life lesson.

There were 2 officials there , they all saw what happened and they made the right call!
I was there and saw it from a different angle, it was a deliberate heat butt!

The officials made the right call!

I don't have a horse in this race and I went to the link. I saw no video at the link.

I talked with a friend of mine today about it. He has ref'd for about 20 years. He brought up an excellent point that I had not thought of. He said, "No offical wants to make that call. They know what was at stake. It must have been pretty bad are he would not have called it."

Good point.

Other than that, I fell sorry for Wilson. Sounds like he is a great kid. What a sad, sad way to end his HS career.

Yes it was deliberate, but so was all of the roundhouse collar ties, elbows tot he back of the head, etc etc. that I saw this weekend, that drew only the gathering at center mat, and a good ole "settle it down boys". and problem was solved.

I also am a believer in the "reputation" degree of punishment. Had we seen this out of Spencer throughout his career, he is on a short leash, and a flagrant misconduct is warranted. But with SPencer always being a good kid wherever I've seen him, you cut him some slack.

I don't know the ref's name, but since I've seen him refereeing, I"ve always thought he was one of the good ones. Don't know what he, the other ref, and the opposing coaches talked about to come to their final decision. None of us know what was being said right after it happened either. It appeared that Spencer was already feeling bad about it from his body language.........It would have been different if he was running his mouth still afterwards.........

My two cents......

I told myself that I was going to limit my comments to a single post on this topic…but I need to clarify a couple points. I am not going to put much blame on any “one” person in this situation.

Obviously if Spenser would have chosen a different way to finish the match we would not be discussing this situation. So obviously he bears the most responsibility here.

The officials did try to get it right on Saturday…but my gut tells me that the mat official wishes his original call would have been unsportsmanlike conduct instead of flagrant misconduct which was called. J. Sauder my only point for pointing out the official’s call-reversal-rereversal in this situation is to point out that I believe that he had doubt about his call from the jump. Flagrant Misconduct is kind of like pornography in the since that it is hard to draw a line of what is and what isn’t in the “gray area” …but when it is “black and white” there is no doubt. An official should always cautiously hand out this severe a penalty and before the call is made in a match where a second official is utilized it would be good judgment to consult with your second official prior to making the call…especially if the issue is NOT “black and white”.

The Shawnee Heights coaches were only being advocates for their wrestler the best they saw fit. I am not going to fault them for their actions on the mat. However, I was told after the match that they would not fight an appeal in this case. I am not sure if that is still their position or not…but on Saturday that is what I was told directly by their head coach.

The reason for this response to this…in this situation if you are going to make the call it better be “black and white” and if it was “black and white” then the official would have never reversed his call.

Bigdaddy I never said there was not a head-butt. I am not going to pretend that I know for sure what Wilson’s intent was…but I gave at least on plausible alternative in my original post that it could have been anything but malicious. Bad things happen in matches all the time that are handled with lesser punishment by penalizing the infracting wrestler for the wrong doing in the match. But to call this Flagrant is where the miscarriage occurred and I feel that it should be corrected this week by KSHSAA.

I know that there are some things that happen in matches in which a wrestler should be “taught a lesson” and “an example” of him should be made to others who bear witness. I have sat on disciplinary committees to hear such appeals. I know how I always make my decision. First, I determine if there was any harm done to the opponent. Second, I try to determine if there was a “clear” intent of the offending wrestler in committing the act. The answer to both of these questions in this case is “NO”. So, in my opinion this was not Flagrant Misconduct and it should be overturned.

Thank you...I think I have now clearly stated my position, so I will not debate this topic further in a public forum. If any of you wish to contact me directly via email we can carry this conversation on in an alternate more private manner.

Good Luck to all next week!
mark.stanley.ks@gmail.com
Mark Stanley

I don't have a horse in this race either, but if this is not FM, what is? He intentionally lead with his head to his opponents head. I do feel sorry for Mr. Wilson, as I think it was done more out of frustration rather than to injure his opponent, however where do we draw the line? If the officials are only going to give an unsportsmanlike penalty in this situation, what does that tell all the other coaches and wrestlers. Unfortunately for Wilson, I do think the appropriate call was made in this particular situation.

Blast dubble: 1st thing most say when teaching it.Head to the middle of the chest as hard and fast as you can.
I knowI have heard many many times coaches say to use your head.To me for it to be FM he would have had to have ahold of the boys head.Than try to deliver a head butt.
I have never got head butted that I did not want to beat the crap out of the guy giving it to me.To me if it was FM the SH boy would have been mad.I think this should play a part in the out come.
You have 2 about to be full men here.I think they should be treated as so.If the SH boy thinks it was bad it should be a finished deal.But if the SH boy thinks this was the roung call That should be takken in to acount.Just like in most cases in law.
I have met the 2 young men a few times.They are and will be good men.I have no horse in the race but know if he would have did the same movment to my boy,I would just ask him what he thought.Cassed solved.

Charles Bradford

I don't see a video at the above link. Is anybody else having that problem also?

Thanks.

Click the above link, then wait for the video to populate, then click it.

It works for me.

And I also do not have a dog in this fight, but my opinion is that the call should have been USC, not FM.

Hopefully upon review it will be downgraded to USC.

I am a 73 year old spectator and what i see in this video is not as bad as the last 8 seconds of the 126 lb. match at Augusta Reginal finals Saturday. Just my opinion. I wish i could see it again to confirm my disgust. I didn't know either wrestler.

Thanks. [/quote]

Click the above link, then wait for the video to populate, then click it.

It works for me.

And I also do not have a dog in this fight, but my opinion is that the call should have been USC, not FM.

Hopefully upon review it will be downgraded to USC.

[/quote]

Thank you. I was able to watch the video by following your directions. Previously, I was too impatient with my slow connection.

It looks like Meck's initial reaction after the headbutt was something to the effect of, "What the h_ll did he just do that to me for?!"

Thanks again.

It might already be in this thread and I'll have to go back and find it . . . but what does the RULEBOOK state regarding what a FM is?

To me it looked like it was not a legit td attempt but rather a frustrated attempt to give Meck some 'pay-back pain' . . . with too much testosterone pumping. Still a sad deal.

Totally agree, this does not look like a takedown attempt. It is hard to take someone down when your arms are behind your back. Also, if it was a setup to initiate a headlock I have no idea how that could have worked as his arms were no where near his opponent.

I think the right call was probably made as that type of blow to the head is very dangerous and has no place in the sport of wrestling. Look at all the ongoing controversy that we're seeing in contact sports like football with head-to-head contact and the research that is being done on brain damage caused by concussions. The only way to prevent this in the sport of wrestling is through harsh penalties. It's a difficult situation because of the side story of Wilson battling back from injury, he and Meck's friendship, and the fact that this is his senior season.

Very unfortunate circumstance, but sometimes you've got to just bite the bullet and live to fight another day, and not let your emotions, testosterone, adrenaline, etc. get the best of you.

Best of luck to both wrestlers in their future endeavors.

Well said Ricky Bobby. I found an article that I relevant to this situation:

Flagrant Misconduct
By Andrew Dennison

2012‐13 NFHS Wrestling Rule 5‐12, Flagrant Misconduct.

It is my opinion, that a Flagrant Misconduct call, is a call that over my 26 years of officiating has to be one of the least called violations across our profession as high school wrestling officials. Like most rules,it is left to the decision of the official. I might see the use of an elbow differently than other officials do,
and call that wrestling ‐ after all it is a contact sport.

Under the rules, Flagrant Misconduct refers to a
behavior that is so offensive that the referee feels he/she needs to disqualify a wrestler from
competition. This is left to the judgment of the referee, a comprehensive list of violations would be impossible to compile. Flagrant Misconduct is a one –time offense. An act that is subsequently
unacceptable, that all athletes know better than to do them. Some examples of Flagrant Misconductare outlined in section 12 under ART 2. sub category (b); striking, butting, elbowing, kicking an opponent, and use of tobacco products. This also includes biting, if in the opinion of the referee a wrestler bites his/her opponent this will be deemed as intentional biting and will be called as flagrant misconduct.

Flagrant misconduct is not limited just to the wrestling area and can be called on other
team personnel and coaches prior to, during or after the match.

There is “NO” warning for Flagrant Misconduct! It is an immediate removal from the event for coaches,
contestants, and any spectators who may become offensive. In the event that a student or contestant has to be removed from the event, he/she must have authorized school personnel to supervise the said individual, if that cannot be provided then they shall be confined to the bench area. A wrestler who is disqualified in an individual tournament is not entitled to any points earned in the tournament. All advancement points, fall points, placement points are negated. All vacancies created in the event pairing shall be scored as forfeits. In dual meet competition all team points will be negated. If a spectator has to be removed from an event for flagrant misconduct, no team points shall be deducted
from any team.

The biggest take away from Flagrant Misconduct is that it is an immediate removal from
the event. There is a deduction of 3 team points for contestants, coaches and team personnel and thereis “NO WARNING”.

Example:
Wrestler B is on bottom and is in a cross face cradle, and wrestler A shows you teeth marks that is consistent with a bite (both upper and lower teeth marks). Wrestler B says it was from his cross‐face(which I have seen marks from upper teeth on a forearm) but after you look at the forearm you can see where both upper and lower teeth have made a mark in an oval fashion. This is clearly an intentional act and should be dealt with accordingly by placing your right/left had on the top of your head with a bend in the elbow and call flagrant misconduct. This must be brought to the official’s attention immediately, if wrestler A stops you in the 3rd period and says “he bit me in the first period, look at my arm”. This bite will NOT be given any consideration; wrestler B must bring it to your attention immediately. You have both wrestlers shake hands and raise the hand of wrestler B as the winner.

Flagrant Misconduct
By Andrew Dennison

Then you as the official may and should explain to the contestants and coaches what he/she did and the
punishment that goes along with this penalty. You must report this to the head scores table so that the correct team points are deducted, and if in an individual event the head scores table know the series of actions that must take place. Most of the time they will not know, and they will need our assistance or the rule book for guidance in a tournament.

This is only one example of many situations where Flagrant Misconduct can occur by coaches, wrestlers
team personnel, and spectators while we perform our duties as wrestling officials. It is our job to use sound judgment, and be consistent and that we must consider the offence(s) serious enough to remove the individual from the event.

References:
2013‐13 NFHS Wrestling Rules; 7‐4‐3, 7‐5‐5, 8‐1‐3, 8‐1‐6
2012‐13 NFHS Wrestling Case Book and Manual; 7.4.3 A and B, 7.5.3, 7.5.5, 7.5.6

Taken from:

http://www.kyofficials.com/sites/kyoffic...tMisconduct.pdf

If this was Kids wrestling and was in Subs, District, or State, and he was ejected, he would miss this year's State series AND next year's State series.

Check out the ejection reports. There are 12 youngsters that were ejected from last year's Series; AND they are barred from wrestling Subs this year.

I feel bad for this young man, but perhaps just as bad for the young kids that will miss TWO State tournaments for Kids, all because of one moment of bad judgement.

As long as we are addressing this subject, I suggest that this rule needs to be addressed in Kids wrestling. The punishment needs to match the wrongful actions. I don't think it does.

Subject for another board! And it was and voted to remain as it is.

I hope this referee isn't refereeing in college! 95% of college wrestlers wrestle way rougher then that. I got punched in the face this year and the ref didn't do anything!

Always start with the rule:

Flagrant misconduct is any physical act...considered by the referee to be serious enough to disqualify a contestant...includ[ing]...butting.

So if the official thought it was a head butt, he followed the rule. Whether he has discretion not to follow the rule is an interesting question but some obviously think he does. Could he ignore a little bite or call it UC? Or a light slug? Should he downgrade the call because its Regionals and the consequences are greater than a regular match? Honestly, from what I can see on the video, which isn't much, it would have been less controversial to call it UC or UR. But do you want officials that are calling it like they see it, or calling it to avoid upsetting the fans and coaches?

For those that think there is some "appeal" to the state I've never heard of one. And there's no clear basis, under the rule, to change it.

For those asking about coach questioning the call--they have the right to do so. A call can be reversed by the official, and should be if he believes he misapplied the rule.

For those that are trying to quantify how "bad" this was, what the wrestler's intent was, or trying to apply situational ethics because it was a big call in a big match, those are things that an official has to deal with every time he steps out on the mat. There are dozens of "either way" calls every day. If you start worrying about the venue you are in trouble.

The video isn't a very good one, doesn't really show much from the angle, and there's not enough film to see if there was anything leading up to the butt. But he lead with the head and made contact. Under the rule, that's just like leading with a fist and making contact.

If the official did a "double reversal" as reported that is unfortunate because it makes him appear uncertain and unsure of himself.

The one "out" for a young official in this situation, and its hard for coaches to do, is if the coaches thought it was a bad call that both of them go to the table and ask that it be reversed. If that had happened, both head coaches asked for it, I believe the official might have changed his call. That didn't happen here, obviously. But I've had an opposing coach support the complaining coach's position and it makes reversing the call very easy.

My apologies. I did high-jack the thread a bit. But I thought it was noteworthy that Kids has such a harsh penalty when compared to high school students. Plus, I hope to garner support from those that interested in both high school and Kids.

And I will be raising the issue on the Kids portion as Subs gets closer. No decision is final and I don't think most parents are aware of this rule.

Mr. Ford beat me to it with the rule. And Mr. Welsh posted a good post. Headbutting is a clear FM and Mr. Ford makes great points about would you rather the official lessen the call based on the circumstances? This kid was frustrated, he lead with his head.

You see heads bumping together as a result of wrestlers trying to get head position in ties and so on and he was not trying to gain head position. His arms were back and not reaching for the head, hands or arms (as they would be if you were trying to get head position to work your offense). He clearly lunged at his opponent. I believe it was the right call. An unfortunate situation for all involved but the right call nonetheless.

Some things that I can see from this whole ordeal:

1. Yes that was FM, and that was not a takedown attempt. So the right call was made by the official. You cannot even headbutt like that in MMA!
2. I am all for being physical and aggressive and this is not the way to go about that. I do not like the fact that Spencer does not get to wrestle next weekend. He is a tough wrestler and has a chance to do well at the state tournament. Just let him lose the match and wrestle again next weekend.
3. I think that if Meck was injured and not able to wrestle next weekend this would be a different ongoing discussion. If he was injured and not able to wrestle then the DQ for next weekend should be warranted.
Intense situation for an intense time of year.

What? Make an exception to the rules because he is a "good" kid?

C. Dee Gard

I want to say something in defense of the Heights coaching staff and say that Coach Albers and Coach Parks are great people and they did not go after Spencer. I heard it myself that neither of them wish to see a career end like that. With that I say that Spencer was wrong and made a bad decision at a very bad time. I know I wish to see him continue as does Nick and the Heights staff as we are all wrestling fans... the last thing I want to hear is there was a Heights coach trying to lesson the competition for Nick come state... I think after the score at :15 left in the 3rd, we all know that Nick is the one to beat.

From what I have read on this thread, (A) the official initially called FM (B) he then reversed himself and called it USC. (C) The Heights coaches were arguing with the official, saying that it should be FM, the Seaman coaching staff did not argue pro or con, they waited for the official's decision. (D) the Heights coaches KNEW that if they were successful in arguing their case for FM that Wilson would be disqualified for State; ultimately the decision was made by the official to re-reverse the call and make it FM, thus automatic DQ for Wilson at State.

Conclusion: The Heights coaches WANTED the disqualification, otherwise, why argue for FM? Their wrestler was going to State anyway, right?

Just my observations as a disinterested fan, got no dog in this fight... But if the facts above are as stated, then a reasonable conclusion could be drawn that the Heights coaches wanted Wilson eliminated as competition.
Hard to believe, right?

One major problem with an online talk forum is that statements can be repeated so frequently that they become generally accepted as true, even when preceded with qualifiers such as "if it is true" or "assuming things were as stated."

Because of the nature of this incident and the repercussions to an outstanding wrestler, it has generated a lot of traffic, with valid arguments over whether the head butt occurred and whether it should have been called flagrant misconduct. It has also been alleged that the Shawnee Heights coaches were pushing for the FM call, an allegation that has been then repeated several times until it appears to be almost accepted as fact.

I have heard from the SHHS coaching staff and, although they admitted to being upset over the head butt, they were adamant that they did not request or pressure the official to declare a flagrant misconduct. I know Coach Parks well and am confident that he would not deny this if it were the case. I'd like to caution everyone about being careful about accepting unsupported allegations as fact!

Someone else mentioned earlier whether there are different punishments for "good kids".

Well, I have news for you: the justice system DOES work that way. If you have robbed a bank before, and get caught, do your time, then rob another bank, your punishment will be harsher than the guy that is a first timer......

DUIs, theft, assault, etc. charges will all be more serious for repeat offenders.

I am not aware of Spencer being one of those kids that anyone would refer to as a "punk" that resorts to this sort of behavior on a regular basis.

Again, I saw a lot of unnecessary roughness that only drew a talking to by the refs at Augusta, and the "problem" was solved.

Sorry Beeson again, I know that unnecessary roughness is necessary.......

I was not there, but from the above post by Mark Stanley, he said HERE IS WHAT I SAW.

Somebody is wrong. Either Stanley did NOT see the SMH coaches pleading for the FM, or the SMH coaches were not being truthful when they said that they were not arguing with the official for FM.

One or the other. The fact that the officials reversed a reversal would argue that they were persuaded to change it, by something or someone. Sounds to me like someone...,

It is my understanding that Mark Stanley was working the table on that match and heard all comments from both refs and coaches.

Like Mike just mentioned, most that is stated on here is mere opinion not fact. I was not at the scoring table to hear what was said but I was privy to a conversation after the tournament in which the Heights staff made it clear that they were not in support of a wrestler ending his career like that. Just defending their character is all.

Scott,

Just PM'd you the testimony of the table worker that heard all involved.

I have heard from more than one source that Mark Stanley worked the table and heard the comments from the officials and from the coaches.
I see no reason to disbelieve what he said, and I repeat, the fact that the official reversed his reversal lends credence to the account.

Don't apologize to me....I BELIEVE IT!

I have looked at the video almost frame by frame. I'll be darned if I can see any kind of violation. Think this was over acted and over analyized.
The kid in blue approached his opponent in a crouch, clearly with both his arms extended. Appears to be reaching for his opponent's right arm with his left hand and arm. His head throughout the move was aimed below the opponents head. The opponent pushed the head further down and the main contact is in the vicinity of the upper chest/breast bone. One poster said the wrestler's hands and arms were behind his back. Not so when he move forward. When the opponent pushed his head down the arms did naturally move back as he naturally tried to maintain his balance. Saw no blood, no opponent grabbing the his nose or holding his head, no looking for dilated eyes, and no first aid. Nothing!!---no flagrant misconduct---no unsportsmanship conduct. If any bad conduct it may have been by the opponent who appears to unnecessarily complain of a violation. And if the Heights coaches argged for DQ, that should have been ignored by the refs. Ref has to bear a lot of blame for this incident. If he initially reversed his call after consult with the second ref, incident should have been over. Why go to the scoreres table or coaches-that would have insured an arguement. The second reversal was a very, very bad decision!!!

Hope this bad call is reversed and the kid gets his trip to the Sate Tournament.

I agree Bill!

Wow, quit blaiming the official. Do you really think officials just throw out Flagrant Misconduct calls randomly? Do you really think the official here didn't know what was at stake? It was a head butt. Head butts are illegal. When an illegal move occurs there is a penalty. The kid (and I believe he is a good kid) made a bad decision and is paying the price. For the love of all, quit blaming the official!

every year there is some one who has to face consequences of their behavior.

We can pull several from recent past. Makes you sick to your stomach when you hear about it and especially when those choices result in the end of a season.

You also hope it turns out for their good - and I have faith that these things do.

Officiating is a tough job, I have officiated myself, and I know that the highest accolade for an official if for him/her to be "transparent", that is, to do their job in such a manner as to be non-obtrusive as much as is possible. In this case, I agree with others that Wilson brought much on himself with his late action. Was it deserving of FM? Probably not, if the official's indecisiveness is any indication. When in doubt, you don't hand out a career-ending penalty such as FM. Not just my opinion, either:



The bolded portion above just strengthens my belief that not only did the SMH coaches not ask for the call to be USC, but that they actively lobbied for the FM.
Why else the re-reversal?

Agreed. I'm sure the ref HATING making that call. But like another man of the past, he was held "captive by his conscience" and could make no other decision.

"Here I stand." MLK, the Reformer

Some talk about the call being change and Mr. Wilson being allowed to compete at the state meet. Can any one give one example of such a thing as that ever occurring at the state meet? I'm just curious.

Wouldn't it be insulting and possibly demoralizing to the ref?

"Some talk about the call being change and Mr. Wilson being allowed to compete at the state meet."

"Wouldn't it be insulting and possibly demoralizing to the ref?"

That might lead to a Zebra strike...

"Here I stand." MLK, the Reformer

You are mistaken about your Martins.

Martin Luther said, "Here I stand." also the title of Roland Bainton's classic on Luthers life.

MLK said lots of other great things.

Why would it be any worse than overturning a call by a football official? For certain, there is a lot more riding on a possible overturning of this call than on overturning a football official's incomplete pass call, for example.

1. The NFL has NEVER overturned a call of an official on the field, nor has the NCAA, nor has KSHSAA.

2. Mark Lentz and KSHSAA are not endowed with the power to overturn this call and they wouldn't even if they could because the NFHS rule book specifically states that matters of judgement by the official are final.

I'm actually kind of confused as to why some people seem to think that the potential to change this call from KSHSAA is even a possibility, such action would undermine all faith that governing bodies put into their officials. This isn't the court system.

I had the opportunity to watch a different video of the incident and i thought the meck kid handled the situation very well, very impressed by him.

Make sense to me. Thank you wrestlingspect.

I would be interested to hear what you saw. I know what I saw was not good.

I outlined in detail what I believe I saw in the video. A frame by frame description--or at least as fast as I could hit the pause/forward button. Looked at it probaly 10-15 times. I remain convinced that there was no foul, and certainly no flagrant violation. If you disagree than explain your analysis in the same detail as mine.

As for ref hating. Not me. Tough job. Don't know this ref's level of experienc---as a wrestler or as a ref. He initially did the right thing---stopped the action, talked to the second ref, and reversed the call. Should have been end of incident. Then he went to the score table, talked to someone, and did the seond reversal. Evidences 2 instances of indecision. Should never have talked to anyone other than the official scorer to insure the scorer knew there was no violation and that the match was to continue. Too many times over the years have seen refs go talk to coaches. Thats OK. But after a decision has been made, thats it. If coaches persist to argue, ref should issue a warning--as I do to my dogs--show the coach a simple hand with open palm up---"stay".

Are we watching the same video? Seriously, are we?

Jamie,

Certainly you have to agree that a referee changing a call then changing it back, casts doubt on the correct ruling.

Isn't it about time to let this go? I mean its over and done with and nothing is going to change at this point. The young man has been disqualified for the state tournament and it will not be overturned.

At this point nothing is going to be gained by second guessing the official who made the call in accordance with the rules and his judgement.

I'd say its to the point of beating a dead horse now.

No, not really. The goal is to get the call right. A deliberate head butt (as opposed to accidental) really doesn't fit the description of USC. Now, a call reversal may not get you any style points as an official, but getting the call right is of the upmost importance. One wrestler head butted another on purpose which by rule is FM. The official in the end got the call right. The really bad part is that is sucks for everyone. A senior doesn't get to go to state because of a bad choice and a REALLY GOOD official gets to own a call forever. I have given FM before and I could probably remember every one of them. It's not an easy call, but hey, that's why officials are making the big bucks! Good news is that for 3 straight days the sun has come up. At least it has in Emporia! Good luck everyone this weekend. I will be in Wichita this weekend if anyone wants a piece of me! (just kidding)

"I'll be your huckleberry...."

"I have looked at the video almost frame by frame. I'll be darned if I can see any kind of violation. Think this was over acted and over analyized."

The referee didn't have that luxury. He had to make the call and he was in position, and made it immediately.


"The kid in blue approached his opponent in a crouch, clearly with both his arms extended. Appears to be reaching for his opponent's right arm with his left hand and arm. His head throughout the move was aimed below the opponents head."

That's true, until he takes a big step and launches himself off both feet, actually leaving his feet, head forward, into his opponents' face, leading with his head. That meets the definition of a head butt.

"The opponent pushed the head further down and the
main contact is in the vicinity of the upper chest/breast bone."



That was after the initial blow, in reaction to it. He was not able to deflect the initial blow because it came up like an upper-cut. The video shows the contact and the head snapping backwards upon contact.


"One poster said the wrestler's hands and arms were behind his back. Not so when he move forward. When the opponent pushed his head down the arms did naturally move back as he naturally tried to maintain his balance."

You have video sequence out of order. He starts out in a decent position, hands forward, but as he then takes a big step, drops his hands and lunges off his feet. The push comes after contact, not before. He lost his balance because he actually leaves his feet, lunging, and had given up his own balance to do so. Also, that "move" is not a wrestling move...he certainly wasn't taking a shot.


"Saw no blood, no opponent grabbing the his nose or holding his head, no looking for dilated eyes, and no first aid. Nothing!!---no flagrant misconduct---no unsportsmanship conduct."

The rule does not mention any of these as requirements for a head butt. You don't have to knock out your opponent to win ...that's a boxing rule.


If any bad conduct it may have been by the opponent who appears to unnecessarily complain of a violation. And if the Heights coaches argged for DQ, that should have been ignored by the refs. Ref has to bear a lot of blame for this incident. If he initially reversed his call after consult with the second ref, incident should have been over. Why go to the scoreres table or coaches-that would have insured an arguement. The second reversal was a very, very bad decision!!!

From what other posters are saying, the Heights' wrestler was saying "Let it go" so don't put it on him. The official must go to the table to talk to a coach, that is the rule. Reversing a call is allowed. Re-reversing a call is unusual, and if it happened, is a legitimate point and is bad mechanics. But leaving a bad call stand is worse. More officials need to make the right call, even if it comes late and requires a reversal.


"Hope this bad call is reversed and the kid gets his trip to the Sate Tournament."

This cannot happen and should not be allowed to happen. There is no rule that permits it, no appeal process that contemplates it, and no administrator with any character that would do it. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of judgment calls every year that affect high school sports and its just part of the sport. As I recall, the Packers lost a game this year on an interception call at the end of the game that no one in the United States thought was correct, but even though the NFL commissioner can do almost anything, that call was not reversed.

This headbutt call was made within the rules, you may disagree with it, you might think it could have been called something less, or ignored, or changed. But it was a headbutt. Maybe a slight one, maybe a poor one, maybe even an accidental one. But the lesson here is if you are behind by 10 points with a few seconds left in the finals, don't be leading with your head, be thinking with it.

The video i watche is thw video listed several places in this topic. Here it is again: http://www.wibw.com/sports/headlines/5A-Regional-Wrestling-From-Seaman-191550751.html[

Don't know what you watched,seriously?

I agree with this. It's regrettable that Wilson's high school career had to end in such a manner, but as I said in an earlier post, facing a 12-3 deficit with less than 5 seconds to go . . . don't do anything foolish such as he did.

He had 2nd wrapped up, and a ticket to State. Too bad.

I saw the wrestler on top (ahead 3-0) with 6 seconds left in 3rd period bounce up and down on down wrestlers back several times as the down wrestler layed on his belly, until time ran out.As the wrestler laying there hurt, getting looked at by the trainers,he and the coach "high 5" each other. Tell me if my eyes deceived me. That is possible.

That is what I saw. I think it should have been a flagrant, but they called it unsportsmanlike. There was definitely an intent to hurt the bottom wrestler.

It does not matter that Spencer is recovering from severe injuries from the car wreck, it does not matter that he is a senior. His arms were clearly going forward, indicating a desire to take the shot, the contact was not made to the forehead as a headbutt would be intentionally given. What does matter is that this young man is deprived of a chance to go to state on a call that was reversed after the referee taking the time to talk to the opposing coaches. Spencer, you are in my prayers - I am a better person for having to know you. God Bless
Darin Denning

I had a wrestler in the consolation semi finals at the st Mary's tourney in the early 90s get slammed with 3 secs left, he was hurt, the move was illegal but he was down by about 7 or eight points. The officials made the call and my wrestler was hurt pretty badly and could not contnue. The head official told me I should leave the table and forget the call, I just asked to apply the rule as written, my guy won and the other wrestler was eliminated.....I don't regret it at all, I feel for Spencer, but abide by the judgement call made....

I don't know if this is a positive thread anymore. A good kid was flagged and has to live with it. None of the posters have to. I'd hate for him or his family or anyone else have to google his name and this post comes up, following him for years. He's a young man and has a good life in front of him. Wrestling will not define him. He's a good smart tough kid with good family support.

I think it would be a good idea to delete this thread.

You can argue refs decisions on a different thread....or maybe in person this weekend.....where you have to use your name and don't have to hide behind your usawks.com call sign.

I don't hide

Good point. Delete or edit out his name.

"Wrestler A lunged. Wrestler B got headbutted." Etc. Edit out the thread to the video. If the thread is edited that way people could still learn the important concepts of the post without drawing attention to the wrestler that DQ'd.

No sense to edit anything! What is out in the public is already out the door.

Question: Do we see what we see or do we see what we want to see??

Yes, but if it is edited or deleted . . . that way 10 years down the road when Wrestler X's kids google 'Daddy's' name . . . they wont pull up this thread. Just a thought.

If it stays as is . . . like someone else wisely posted on this thread previously . . . these things tend to work themselves out for good any way. Roman 8:28

Glad you aren't a ref. Clearly contact with the head. Now if you want to debate if that is serious enough to not go to the state tournament thats another issue. My guess is this is an issue because of what the Seaman kid has fought back from and that he is a good kid and a senior.
Wonder if anybody would care if it was a sophmore or a kid nobody had ever heard of in a 3rd-4th place match? Ref's shouldn't factor that in. They should just make the call. He did its done, too bad it happened but probably not going to change.

The main issue here is that the ref made the call, changed the call and then changed the call back due to influence from the opposing coach. (Who I respect by the way and know that he had not thought through the ramifications of Spencer's state tournament eligibility).

All of you armchair refs that where not there need to not comment , the whole gym was stunned when they saw what Spencer did!!
He made a serious error and is responsible for his actions, no one else, not the refs or the opposing coaches!

Moderators please close this thread .

The seat that the table worker had was not an armchair.

I agree, I was on the opposite side of him on the front row!

He lead with his head with his arms at his side, geeess!

Lets move on, please!

Settle down. It's just a conversation. You are free to move on to another thread or no thread at all. Obviously the action on the mat was in question if both referees had decided after consulting that the correct call should be changed to USC from FM. To then be influenced by coaches to change back once again to FM is what is in question. Nobody is saying anybody is a bad person, they are just saying it was handled badly.

I think Travis was referring to my earlier posts saying what i saw at 126 finals at Augusta was FAR worse than the video of this topic. I wish i could get a video of the finals match at 126 at Augusta. I probaly messed up by referring to it on this blog. Sorry, Thanks.

I was coaching at a tournament a couple years back and the video posted on here is almost excactly identical to what one of my wrestlers did. That wrestler received a flagrant misconduct as well. The tournament was NOT a state qualifier, but I think the officials have to be consistant. The young man was removed from the tournament (the official who gave the misconduct actually was a teacher with the young man's dad)

My point being is that if its called one way for one tournament you can't call it the other way for another tournament.

The official was not the same official in the Wilson match. Spencer is a great wrestler and I wish him the best in his college career.

Again, i'm sorry for bringing this up on this post. The issues are completely differant. Bouncing up and down on a wrestlers back being up 3-0 with a few seconds to go in the match and hurting the bottom wrestler is what i was referring to in my posts. Go back and read them and i think it would make some sense. Again. i was disgusted at what i saw. Violation of the rules? I'm not versed enough to answer that. I just enjoy watching my grandkids and others wrestle. I don't like unsportsmenship. I think this was an example of that or worse. Thanks, Matt