4A split proposal passed, but not for wrestling

DATE: June 4, 2013

TO: KSHSAA Board of Director members, Member School Superintendents, Senior High Principals, and Athletic Directors

FROM: Gary Musselman, KSHSAA Executive Director

RE: CLASS 4A RECLASSIFICATION PROPOSAL VOTING RESULTS

As indicated in the memo you received last April, ballots from KSHSAA Class 4A member schools on the proposal to modify KSHSAA post-season competition in football, volleyball, basketball, baseball and softball were due June 3rd by 4:00 p.m. Based on the response from the Class 4A member schools, the proposal to create two divisions in Class 4A received the required 33 votes needed from the 64 schools voting.

As a result, the proposal is approved and becomes effective in the 2013-14 school year in volleyball, basketball, baseball, and softball. Class 4A football playoffs will be conducted in two divisions beginning with the 2014 season.

Voting results were as follows:

Class 4A
Yes = 42 No = 22 (No Votes = 21, Abstain = 1)

The Proposal was approved.

Regardless of opinion on the 4A split proposal, I think to split for some sports not others is the worst idea of them all.

x2

How much more will it cost to conduct 15 more playoff games? 16 more teams in the playoffs and the 8th state football champion in Kansas. I think we are continuing the slide down the slippery socialistic slope. Just give everyone a trophy. The cost to operate so many schools and so many county governments is outrageous. I feel like there is no longer a say by those who pay the taxes as it seems the schools just stick their collective hands out and get more.

My guess is, the lack of facilities and officials played into only some sports being considered. I did hear a couple of administrators make the same comment though.

The new American Way....if at first you don't succeed, look for less competiton untill you do. Participation medals for all.

Myself personally am not a fan of this. How would you like to walk around and say hey we won 4A state football title this year, we are the best football team in our class "MAYBE".

It's not any worse than saying "We are State Champions!!! Well, along with four other schools. So I guess not really? But we are winners!!! Kind of." PUSSIFICATION OF AMERICA.

If you read the original proposal that was presented, they recommended a split to 4A Wrestling in to TWO Divisions like the other sports. However, right below the "Data Table" on PDF Page #5 there is a note that reads, [**Feedback on Wrestling (underlined the word Wrestling) Coaches: "Leave as one division".]

Here is the link to the proposal: http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2013-04/229572640-26151647.pdf

I have asked numerous Class 4A Coaches that I know in person, through e-mail, on FaceBook, WHEN did you as a WRESTLING (underlined) Coach provide this FeedBack to the creators of the proposal?

I have asked the KWCA Board President and Vice-President, who I am friends and a fellow board member with, when did we as the Kansas WRESTLING Coaches Association give FEEDBACK on this proposal? When did the Class 4A WRESTLING Representative from KWCA provided FEEDBACK on this proposal? When did the Class 4A Regional Meetings Coordinators ask the WRESTLING Coaches at their Seed Meetings for their FEEDBACK!

The bottom line is that from all I've talked to, a handful of principals/ADs may have asked their coaches what they wanted. We are not even sure how many got asked, because from the FEEDBACK I have gotten their maybe was handful.

I don't have a dog in this fight as a Class 3A coach. HOWEVER, I am upset that the Quote attributed to WRESTLING Coaches was not Valid, Accurate or Substantiated!

Doug Vander Linden
Burlington Wrestling

This is great point Doug.

What about 40 6A schools, 40 5A schools, 48 4A schools?

Would that be a good solution?

Doug, thank you for sharing that. I have been told time and time again that coaches in 4A did not want this. Yet, almost all of the ones I've talked to are in favor of a split. It's obvious to me something needs to change between The classes. I think the 48 idea in 6A, 5A, 4A is the best idea, but because 6A and 5A won't vote to change the status quo this was the only option. I do think it was ridiculous wrestling was not added in with this. It really upsets me when people post criticizing the split when 6A and 5A won't try to fix the problem. I don't mean to offend anyone but speaking from my experience as a head coach it is really hard to build a team and get kids out in 4A.

Mitchell with all due respect to you and to Holton, the proposal was written by your administration and brought to KSHSAA by the Big 7 with your Principal as President of the Big 7 was it not? Oh and I most certainly agree. How could anyone from a 5 or 6A school have the audacity to criticize the concept of only 32 in a classification for 4A?

Let me be clear, I do not speak for the Holton administration or the big seven leauge. Just because I live in Holton does not mean I speak on their behalf. Do I agree with their proposal? Absolutely, for reasons already stated. I'm just calling into question the same point made by Doug in an earlier post. I agree with what Kit said as well. But, yes, how could anyone in 5A or 6A criticize this plan? It would be hypocritical.

I can and will criticize it. I think it is ridiculous there is a class system at all. But I guess we all need to feel like winners. Maybe we should make enough classes so that each class has 8 participants. Then we need to make sure we give out medals for the top 8 placers. I understand that 4 time state placers would sky rocket, but everyone would feel like a winner. It would really screw up trying to figure out which class was the toughest class. Would it be 1A, 6A, 10A, 12A? My bet would still be with 5A.

I have worked at the 4A, 3A and now 6A level, I think this decision is terrible and hypocritical when you don't split all sports. Dumb.

I'm a 6A coach and I'll criticize whatever I please as well. If I had my way we would go to a 2 class system doing Big School and Small Schools Divided right down the middle.

I say combine 6A, 5A and 1/2 of 4A and call them 2A and combine all of 3-2-1A and 1/2 of 4A and call it 1A.

However, that will never happen. I am not against a 6A and 5A combined class either!

Somehow the process of Democracy needs to be brought back into this situation.

I agree it is not good for wrestling to have a different field of competition than in other sports. That certainly is not how you grow your sport. It is apparent that KSHSAA in leaving track, wrestling and cross country to a different set of rules, seem to think wrestling is an individual sport. While I do agree that an individual can excel without a solid team, I would certainly like to think that the team aspect of wrestling is still primary. I know it is a heck of a lot more fun if that is the case. I always cringe when I see a stud that thinks their commitment is only to themselves and not to the well being of the team.

It would obviously be whatever class Ark City and Goddard were in, right doug747.

Well I too will criticize but for different reasons. I resent any comments that imply 5A and 6A have it easier already and can't complain when 4A wants to have it a little easier now.

When I coached at Goddard in the late 90's we had a heavyweight who beat the 4A heavyweight state champion in the semifinals in our home tournament. Our heavyweight got pinned in the finals by our varsity heavyweight. Oh did I neglect to state that our heavyweight that beat the 4A heavyweight champion was our JV kid. He never ever even got to wrestle at regionals his whole career because he couldn't beat the other kid. To top it off, our varsity heavyweight didn't even win state that year in 5A. He lost in the finals to the Kapaun heavyweight.
When my son was a freshman at Goddard and they were in 6A he had to beat a ranked kid just to make varsity. That's right, he wasn't even supposed to be varsity. The next year my son went up in weight and the other kid who wasn't even varsity the year before won the state title.
Those kids certainly had a right to criticize.
Those are just two examples, I could come up with a lot more.

I am not saying these things to try to imply that 5A and 6A are tougher or the toughest. I am saying they are plenty tough enough as it is already and they are certainly as tough as 4A right now. Someone in 4A could certainly spin it the other way with some examples of their own. It just depends on the year and weight. But if you are 4A and you have never wrestled or coached in 5A or 6A then you don't know what you are talking about when you imply that 5A and 6A should be combined or are not tough enough or don't have a right to criticize while 4A does have a right.
I am saying focus on the 4A issue and not drag the 5A/6A issue in. Get over it. Quality will always be more important than quantity.

And I did not just hijack the thread, that was already done.

But everyone have a great day!

I cannot help but notice that it is mostly 5A and 6A that think it is not right that 4A is divided. I also notice some of the ones clamoring for a bigger mountain to climb have yet to conquer the hill they have. Kind of interesting!

I think that was the point he was trying to make. There have been a lot more 5A and 6A coaches publicly criticizing the split (including one in my town). I don't understand why. They don't have a dog in the fight. And for those of you in 5A and 6A who talk about wanting less classes, we had our chance to vote for 48 in each class. Or maybe the coaches didn't really get a vote ( which sounds like was the case for the wrestling coaches in 4A ((see Doug Vander Linden's post above)).

Each school administrator was provided an opportunity to vote by sport. (I am not sure if that vote opportunity came from KSHSAA or the league that presented the proposal).

Our school, for instance, voted no on the proposal in every sport. But other schools may have voted in favor for some sports, against for other sports.

That is when the proposal was changed to only include football, basketball, volleyball, baseball, softball.

Kit -

On Page #6 of the PDF it says that a SURVEY was done. Not a VOTE. It also said that it was sent to principals. Wrestling was 30-24 with 10 principals not responding.

http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2013-04/229572640-26151647.pdf

Also, it does not say in the proposal that the principals voted it down. Read the line on PDF Page #5 where it reads "Feedback on Wrestling (underlined) Coaches: Leave as one division".

It does not say that the Principals (underlined) did not want it. It does not say the ADs (underlined) did not want it. It does not say the KSHSAA executives (underlined) did not want it. It says that our peers (yes I am 3A, but we all our a few kids up or down from being 3A, 4A or 5A) did NOT want this!

Where is the disconnect here?

Where is Coach Jackson from Holton with his insight and other coaches from the Big 7 league that brought it forward. Maybe the survey (or straw poll, a coin flip, a rock-paper-scissor contest) was of the WRESTLING (underlined) Coaches in the BIG 7 League?

A survey of 64 PRINCIPALS does not indicate the WISHES OF THE 62 TO 63 WRESTLING Coaches in Class 4A. I've talked to many of these 4A coaches that were never asked by their principals. Can we see the detailed survey results?

If wrestling is NOT a TEAM Sport lets get rid of duals and State TEAM Titles. You compete individually as part of a TEAM! I think it was wrong that wrestling was left out of the split.

The answer now is "not who is to blame?" The answer is to decide as leaders in our sport if we are going to do something about it, if as a group we feel there has been a mistake made.

Getting off my soap box gently, I am getting older...
Doug Vander Linden
Burlington

This is interesting. Agreed Doug.

This proposal should have involved much more discussion & input opportunities and then voted on afterwards. With opportunities to discuss, hear/express pros & cons.

Wrestling needs to do that extensively within our coaches group to see what our collective stance on the proposal is. This info can/should then be presented to the KSHSAA.

I can begin working on a questionairre.

The survey should include two groups (all coaches, and 4A coaches - which is difficult in that some schools bounce around in classifications).

To help everyone determine where their stance is on it, this forum can be used for discussion leading up to deadline of survey being submitted.

Kit -

I like what you are thinking about a formal coaches survey. I have a couple of tools that we have used in KWCA this past year where we can create a "close" online survey. We did it for some voting needs in one of the divisions this year, and it worked well and was secure.

We can also use KWCA information resources to help. The Fall Clinic is a great place for a discussion like this, and it will be right after the 2013-14 Classifications have been announced which will help us get the right group of coaches on board for Class 4A (big/small) and other classes.

I am ready to be part of the solution.....
Doug

Kit and Doug,

I completely agree with everything you guys just said. You guys are simply two of the best. I get kind of defensive about any topic where wrestling is not treated fairly. And to me this split treats our sport like we are not as important as basketball or football. Like Kit said, splitting some sports and not others is a horrible idea. Good luck with the survey.

I'm torn. I don't think I like a 4A split. I think Regionals would be a way too small.

But I don't think other sports split & wrestling not helps us. Hard enough as it is to build programs, get kids out, etc., let alone battling the added issue of so many other sports, especially our winter counterpart, now advancing to state lot more easily and often.

I feel a division of 40 in 6A, 40 in 5A, 48 in 4A is best solution. But it is a major proposal. Still, it makes the most sense to me.

Why not 48, 64, and the rest? We only need two state tournaments but lets at least move in the right direction and get to three.

The point MANY of you are missing is that the split is really about the number of schools but the total number of students. Another point, our wrestling state tournaments are individual state tournaments. We crown a state champ but dual state would be the BEST way to determine the best TEAM. Any of you who think KS should crown 5 state champions, individually, in wrestling, are completely out of your collective minds. Four is way too many to begin with. They only crown three in Wisconsin and they have twice the population we have. We can go on and on with examples. I am not sure ANY other state crowns five individual champions.

I think Arizona does. I will say that I think the New England states do it right, if you have more then one state tournament you then go to grand state, from grand state you go on to take on the rest of New Englands best (I believe 6 states combine for that in a 24 man Grand Region Championships. Top 4 in each state go (Grand State top 4 if you have more then 1 division)

But you're missing the point of this Discussion post. We all would like a one class state championship but it's not going to happen. It seems to me that 4A took the only option they felt was left. But if you read the article in the Capital Journal the principles said they hoped this would lead to future changes in the classes. Its not about finding an easier road to a state championship. They wanted 48 in each class but 5A and 6A wouldn't vote for that. I would like to see more competition in 6A, but thats just me. So if this 4A split results in future changes I'm all for it.

Do I have a right to give my opinion publicly? Have I climbed a big enough hill to have an opinion on what I think is best for wrestling in the state of Kansas. 5 classes would sink our sport. 4 classes is too many. 3 is really too many but it is what it is. 2 would be perfect.

Just my opinion from a small hill I guess

The REAL culprit here? Shrinking rural areas. We need to consolidate counties and close schools. We are fiscally choking ourselves to death and NOT giving ALL of our kids adequate education and extracurricular opportunities. The 105 county system was created when we traveled by horse. Does anyone still go to the county seat in a wagon? Cmon! We don't need 105 county clerks! If the consolidation of counties and schools kills towns then let them die! Most of these rural areas are already HIGHLY subsidized through government payments to agriculture producers not to mention the free and reduced lunch programs, etc. I am sure this will piss some folks off but if your business can't make it on its own then neither should a town. I am sick and tired of the redistribution of wealth via property taxes and the increasing number of administrators and politicians to run our schools. No one on here wants to talk about the cost because they just ask for a budget increase to cover them.

The guy on here saying to close schools is one who does NOT even support public schools. This is kind of ironic.

Obviously you are clueless. I support public schools in five counties and I have ZERO kids attending them. I support them and don't use them so that makes me a bad guy? If we had a vouchering system or a tax credit for attending private school then you might have a point. There is no irony only stupidity.

Will, anytime you use a product or service provided by the private or public sectors that have employees who used the public education system, you are benefiting from it. But, yes, you have some good points, and again, another thread hi-jacked!!!

On the topic, I think it is a sad commentary on today's youth that posters imply that the only way to build a program is to make it easier for the wrestlers to succeed, and we are not talking about them, the wrestles, working hard.

Also, a lot of kids have worked real hard to get 5/6th in their respective state tourneys. Adding another class would truly cheapen their accomplishments.

Again, 5A and 6A only have 32 teams. You are implying because 4A wants to go to 32 teams they want it easier. Are you saying that in 6A it is easier for the wrestlers to succeed, and that we don't work hard?

By going to 32 teams it will be easier, there is no getting around it. How can you suggest that it won't be?

Anytime you send your kid(s) to a private school the public school benefits as they still receive your funding but you do not use the FULL SERVICES you would be entitled to.

KSHSAA is becoming a joke. 8 state champs in football. Wow. Two in 8 man?? How can their be that much disparity between the smallest and largest 8 man school?? The whole thing is so watered down and many are still missing the point that the school count for each classification is not just based on the number of schools but on total enrollment.

2012 KSHSAA Enrollments
6A 53383 32 Schools
5A 31232 32 Schools
4A 28657 64 Schools
321 28133 227 Schools

While the process by which the decision was made on which sports to split was flawed, rather than look at it as some sort of slight, I prefer to see it as a badge of honor for wrestling.

I agree. Another classification in wrestling would have been flat out embarrassing.

Yeah, it's about as embarrassing as criticizing schools for not building up a wrestling program and then stealing a bunch of out of town kids for your own team.

To clarify, I am not advocating for a 4A split in wrestling. My issues are with a) the process & lack of discussion/input and rush for the change to happen, and b) that the split is for some sports, not wrestling.

In smaller schools especially, all sports are in essence competing to attract the most athletic kids to be in our programs. This challenge is now even harder when most every other sport in our schools now are competing against 31 teams for their state trophies....especially our winter sports counterpart, basketball.

I feel the best option is 6A 40 schools, 5A 40 schools, 4A 48 schools. Not the addition of more classes.

If you are directing this statement towards me then it is time for you to rethink this statement. It is a libelous statement. If you have a good product it will attract good customers. Maybe you have SJA confused with another school.

Sorry to not be able to reply for a few days, I have been so busy standing on the "back-side" of my hill that I can't see over the top or anywhere for that matter....I guess there are only a handful of guys that can comment on this topic because you have no credibility if haven't won it all yet!

Kit's most recent post hit it right on the head in terms of where did the data come from, and why rush this piece. IF you split 4A you split it ALL. Not just the handful of sports that want 2 titles for that group of 64 schools!

Got to get back to climbing, chopping wood and trying to get up that hill.....

Doug Vander Linden (my real name)
Burlington Wrestling

Short of moving to just one class, I like this.

Lets keep everything as it stands, but add a twist. Each class has a regional, the top four move to the "State", except now called "Sub-State", then the top four from those move to "The State Tournament" all classes combined. No need to have a Grand State and will solve all issues with which class is stronger and all arguments in between. If need be this will allow for 4A splitting and if need be you could split 321A. Then numbers will be somewhat even and in the end a true individual champ and team champ will be named.

Just my opinion, but I think if they are going to split other sports than they should have split 4A wrestling too. The majority of high school students do not even participate in wrestling, and the ones that do- the majority of them probably do not even make varsity and/or qualify for state. The ones that do place at state- the majority do not wrestle in college, and many who do wrestle in college quit wrestling for different reasons. My point is the diehard wrestling fans have expectations and they also have lots of positive memories from their own personal experiences. If you split 4A you will have that many more student athletes having an opportunity to be state placers (positive experience and positive memories). Maybe the split could actually help promote wrestling in Kansas. The smaller 32 team State competition would probably be somewhat watered down for a few years, but those teams would be able to compete for a strong finish. I do not know the numbers, but I doubt to many of the bottom 32 4A teams are top 10 finishers etc. My point is the split may get more schools and more communities excited about wrestling. More students may end up participating and having a positive experience with the sport of wrestling.

Arizona has just four classes. I cannot find a state in this country with more than four. If we want to add a fourth class, how about girls only state for all classes. Make wrestling gender specific.

I don't believe it is. SJA was not mentioned. Since they were not mentioned, I do not see how they could be confused with another school. By stating that a statement is "libelous" it leaves one to believe that the big bad lawyers will become involved. Pretty lame attempt at a scare tactic. Come on Will, you guys want to be the big dogs, learn to take some comments. It comes with the territory.

Moser has a long history of anti-SJA comments. The awesome work that Coach Medina has accomplished has for some reason gotten under his skin and he's obsessed with bashing them.

And you have a long history of sticking up for SJA. Which wouldn't be so bad if you weren't the 4A and all-class state ranker. I for one don't care for this and would like to see you step down. A ranker should be free of bias and impartial. You seem to have an affinity for private schools. And this is an online chat room form. Then next thing you know he will be trying to sue the comment section on YouTube.

Oh yeah, it's getting good now.

First of all, SJA is a 5A school. If you care to look at the facts, I ranked ARK, SJA and STA 1/2/3 in my final 5A pre-state ranking. That's exactly how they finished. In 6A, I ranked GC, JC and DB 1/2/3 in my final pre-state ranking. That's exactly where they finished. In 4A, 8 of my top 10 teams finished in the top 10.

Every single ranking service on this planet has a personal opinion. When comparing wrestlers who have not met on the mat and have no commons, the ranker makes a choice based on his or her own opinion along with opinions of their trusted sources. Your comment that a ranker should be free of any such opinion is a sophomoric statement, showing a lack of understanding.

Every single time that you have made these unfounded claims, you were asked by myself and others to simply state an example. Your position was found bankrupt when you failed to do so. You will find out in life Steve, that if your claims consistently lack evidence then you will be correctly labeled as a boy who cried wolf.

My example is what you are doing right now Eric. You were not involved in this but you still Can't mind your own business. Time and time again you come to the defense of one program. I would like to think someone who has a position as yours would stay out of it. Will can fight his own battles and doesn't need you to stick up for him. The only thing sophomoric here is your Blatant disregard for every other wrestling program in the state. Again, I call for you to step down as the ranker.

Because I am a ranker, I have to mind my own business? Everyone else gets to speak their mind? You were not involved in this until you chimed in! Are you OK?



Help everyone understand how I am blatantly disregarding every other wrestling program in the state. I've spoken out publically in favor of many of our teams in Kansas.

I do not expect that you will, but call me at 913-484-3624.

I support the Chief. He can also defend SJA if he wants. St. James is good at athletics because they decided that their athletics programs were going to be good. The parents, administration, boosters and students support this. They don't micro-manage their programs and expect their coaches to only work 3 months out of the year. Take a look in the mirror and see if you are doing everything you can to make your programs better or if its easier to waste your energy assuming that the successful programs are cheating. Or, instead of working harder, lets just create more classifications because apparently the only way student athletes can gain any self-worth today is by qualifying for state.

Also, Will is a product of the public school system so we have no one to blame but ourselves.

I believe Eric has every right to have an opinion. I do know this. Ranking, when done right, is a hard job that I would never in a million years want to do. As a head coach, I really don't put a lot of weight in rankings as it eventually has to be settled on the mat. However, they are fun to look at and give us something to talk about. And honestly, his rankings are pretty dang close. They are not only based on opinion. I am pretty sure he has a WAR Room of stats, match-ups, charts, etc. and puts more information into his rankings than anybody.

I would also state that he has no kids left in the game yet he stays on, travels across the state to watch tournaments, etc all in the name of getting his rankings as close as possible. Rankings are an "Educated Guess". And if I had to put my money into someones Educated Guess.. it would be Eric's.

Now back to the forum topic. In my opinion.. to be a STATE CHAMPION you should be the best wrestler or team in your state on the final week-end of the year. Not the best wrestler or team of 4 or 5 different state tournaments.

Granted, I am proud of my kids earning a 6A State Championship in 2011. However, in the final All-Class we were the #2 ranked team behind Andover Central. I would have loved the opportunity to put my team in a state wide tourney to find out where we really were. (I believe we were the best) but we will never know b/c of the "Weakening Waters" of our sport.

We will NEVER HAVE 1 State Tournament. However, split directly down the middle and having only two sure would make it a lot more interesting. Will never happen... but as I stated earlier... just a coach from a Small Hill wishing for something better

Ranking are rankings, until Eric decides by himself who makes the state tournament who cares.

That is the good thing about wrestling, it isn't won on a computer or decided by a commitee who get to compete for a championship. It is decided on the mat.

If and I mean IF he leans towards SJA who cares, that doesn't help SJA kids win on the mat does it?

No no no. On this website only a select few are entitled to their opinions. The rest of us get bashed and bully by those who are. Eric Has always made it a point to interrupt and interfere with my arguments with Will. Will Cokeley has personally tried to embarrass me on this website (He knows what he did). Anytime I have ever shared an opinion on this website he has put me down.

Lighten up Francis.

There is nothing for me to fight. You whine and post no facts. I posted a link to your stand up comedy routine and you call that bullying?? You claim Eric should step down because he is bias? He works for Shawnee Mission East's wrestling program and attends tournaments all over the state, sponsor's trips for kids (which btw, there wasn't a single SJA kid on the Colorado trip this year) and all of this for what?? So a punk like you can jump on here and run your mouth? Do you realize the rankings were done by coaches from within the classification, do you think they were not bias?? Give me a break. It was obviously apparent a few years back that one of the rankers was sandbagging his own wrestlers by NOT ranking them. I challenge YOU or anyone to rank and try to be as accurate as Eric. It is NOT going to happen so put a lid on it STEVE. I reviewed your posts and if there is an obvious bias here it is your dislike of the SJA program and I presume me. You can continue to make false accusations and look pitiful or you can apologize to Coach Medina and become a productive poster. This stream was about classification splitting until you made it personal. That is not going to be constructive in any way. You did not state your opinion, you made a blatantly false accusation. Maybe you should focus on your stand up routine and see if you could be funny without dropping f bombs that way Bill wouldn't have to remove the link.

Kit & Doug,

I am really uncertain why you guys think it so odd that wrestling was not split while the other sports were... I mean 321A wrestling is combined and not split like all of the other sports? I guess I wouldn't mind knowing the process that took place but at the same time I think there is an overwhelming majority that is thankful for NOT splitting and further watering down Kansas wrestling.

From my previous post....

"In smaller schools especially, all sports are in essence competing to attract the most athletic kids to be in our programs. This challenge is now even harder when most every other sport in our schools now are competing against 31 teams for their state trophies....especially our winter sports counterpart, basketball."

I think there is one question you have to answer before you can decide about the classifications and the number of state tournaments.....

What do we want to determine the most....individual state champions or team state champions?

The answer to that question will then help determine the scope, magnitude and size of the venue needed for a state tournament.

In My Opinion, if we wanted to emphasize a team state championship and we used a dual meet format to determine the champion, then it would be much for feasible to develop a fairly low cost, all class format that would culminate with the top 8 teams in the state going to wrestle in one location. Similar to how the state does soccer (yes it is still in classes but we could change that).

By the way, I personally think that is how we guarantee wrestling stays in the Olympics also.

Shawn Budke

So you are saying kids will only participate in sports they feel like they have a chance to win a championship in? Your rationale is that kids will find the path of least resistance to winning and that will motivate them to compete?

The selling points for wrestling are that YOU earn your own spot by being the BEST at your weight class. The coach doesn't handpick and it doesn't matter if you are cutting or not cutting THE WRESTLER gets to pick what weight he wants to compete in and establishes that through the wrestle off. There are no politics or booster clubs in the coach's ear whispering who should start for the betterment of the program.

Your competition, now more than ever, is the almighty DOLLAR. Kids want to work to have material things and impress their peers not through athletic prowess but by being the one most with the best or most toys. Not many want to push themselves beyond their normal limits as athletic greatness. The solution is to market and glamorize these accomplishments. A wrestling coach has to highlight ALL of the pros and he has to partner with the football coach, as we all know KSHSAA's rules have made football the king (along with TV and the attraction to violence), in order to fill a team. It is up to parents and educators to push our kids because it is a tough world out there. The only easy way is the unemployment line. Selling, marketing, motivating, and instilling strong values is the only way to go. Watering down and pussifying is sure fire formula for destroying character building and individual work ethic.

Will, you speak the truth, I am going to have you write the foreword to my new book, The Lowest Common Denominator. Unfortunately what Kit speaks of is true and yes kids do tend to follow the path of least resistance, often following the map given to them by their parents.

A "Billosophy" I often remind people of is that rivers get crooked by following the path of least resistance and the reason that the Grand Canyon is "Grand" is because that river said, "I'm going this way instead. It will take more time and be a lot of hard work, but it will be rewarding when I am done."

Maybe we have to work harder and not just open the door but grab them by the hand to pull them through it. Like most things in life you get out of it what you put into it. It seems that public school way, in Kansas, is to keep finding ways to make education and extra curricular activities EASIER because there is no way we should expect kids to learn work ethic. That might come from the administration mentality of just ask for more money and the taxes will magically go up to pay for anything we want and yes I said WANT not need. Even rivers have been controlled and maintained so it would seem there is a way to make it happen but it takes a consensus. Capitalism and good hard work to earn it just might be becoming obsolete.

Couple of points:
1) We can not pull them through the door. I have watched Will try and fight this battle for years and I see no improvement on Coaches working with kids, allowing wrestlers to participate at Tulsa or other tournaments during High School Season, classes being united, or a dual tournament. Maybe this needs to be attacked differently.

2)I am not 100% sure that it is the kids that are wanting to water down the classes. The kids are not the ones that get to vote, the coaches do. I am suggesting that, the coaches are the ones that are wanting a State Championship so bad that they are voting to water it down so they can feel accomplished. It's not a kid problem but a Administration problem. Bring home a State Championship boys.

3) You can not make kids want to TRY, to WORK HARD, or to SUCCEED. If this has not been instilled in them in a young age, only the parents can be blamed. It's not the kids fault. They are not causing the Pussification of America. They are the results of Parents who never made their kids TRY, WORK HARD, and SUCCEED.

We need to be attacking the problem. School Administrators, Parents, and High School Coaches. Not the Kids. The Kids are just a product of how Adults are acting.

Very Well said, most of the time a kids problems or shortfalls to succes are directly related to one of the 3 you mentioned.

Why do I need to be attacked "I hope you mean certain coaches and not "ALL" Coaches. And just so you know... I have never been approached by KSHSAA to vote on anything over the past 10 years of coaching.

I am not addressing "ALL" Coaches. I am addressing any coach that encourages their Athletic Directors to Vote to water down the classes even more. We will never know which coaches encouraged this ridiculous split in 4A, but these are the coaches I am speaking of. Football, Basketball, Baseball, or any other sport.

Now Coach Church I know that you and your team is willing to take on all competition so I am not speaking to you. But, any coach that is offended by my statements and feels the need to defend themselves...I'm probably speaking to them.

LOL... I know Beeson! Hence me putting a smiley face in there! All is good! I knew exactly what you meant!