Classification Data..."Food for thought..."

6A Total 54,228 Avg 1,695 Students
5A Total 31,832 Avg 995 Students
4A Total 28,471 Avg 445 Students
321A Total 27,293 Avg 122 students

There are more students in the biggest 15 schools than there are in 4A and 321A

There are more students in the biggest 33 schools than there are in the smallest 288 schools.

We have a huge standard deviation in enrollment!

There are 221 Kansas high schools with wrestling, according to Kansaswrestling.org. If we assumed that these were the biggest 221 (which we know is not true but for sake of argument we will use this cut off point) the total student enrollment would be a total enrollment of 131,695.

How would you divide these schools up into less state tournaments than four (and Chad, I agree, one would be best!). To me the disparity in size makes it almost impossible to divide in any proportionately fair manner that also make sense from a number of schools perspective.

Derby 1919
Dodge City 1854
Garden City 2024
Hutchinson 1487
Junction City 1737
Maize 1387
Manhattan 1638
Wichita-East 2258
Wichita-Haysville Campus 1546
Wichita-North 2071
Wichita-Northwest 1415
Wichita-South 1601
Wichita-Southeast 1570

JOHNSON COUNTY
Gardner-Edgerton 1406
Olathe East 2046
Olathe North 2025
Olathe Northwest 1929
Olathe South 2090
OP-Blue Valley 1449
OP-Blue Valley North 1512
OP-Blue Valley Northwest 1593
OP-Blue Valley West 1357
Shawnee Mission East 1653
Shawnee Mission North 1500
Shawnee Mission Northwest 1752
Shawnee Mission South 1364
Shawnee Mission West 1755

TOPEKA AND EAST
Kansas City-Wyandotte 1444
Lawrence 1465
Lawrence-Free State 1555
Topeka 1739
Topeka-Washburn Rural 1817


Since the inception of the 6A Class in 1979 only two Johnson County High Schools have won a title, Blue Valley 1997 and the 2005 STA team. That is 2 out of 35... With 14 of the 32 schools being from Johnson County it seems that we need to challenge our wrestlers and coaches to break free from their traditional scheduling and training. It isn't working. We cannot get any better unless we all work together and plan. Without change there will be no improvement and all of you know this means that some of the change might be painful or a struggle to pull off. It is a simple equation for me, it is all about the kids and teaching them to aim for perfection in hopes of achieving some excellence along the way. Being stubborn and excluding or not changing because you are holding onto some ridiculous "tradition" is NOT going to improve your program.

Just to expand this position a little, you can draw a line just west of Topeka where you will find 50% of the population living on each side and just over 59% of the 6A schools and you will still only get two state champions since 1979.

5A
Andover 794
Arkansas City 775
Emporia 1103
Goddard 795
Goddard-Eisenhower 862
Great Bend 958
Hays 737
Liberal 1237
Maize South 764
Newton 1020
Salina-Central 988
Salina-South 1064
Valley Center 838
Wichita-Bishop Carroll 1170
Wichita-Heights 1304
Wichita-Kapaun Mount Carmel 880
Wichita-West 1336


Kansas City-FL Schlagle 812
Kansas City-JC Harmon 1265
Kansas City-Turner 1090
Kansas City-Washington 990
Lansing 879
Leavenworth 1334
Lenexa-St. James Academy 797
OP-Blue Valley Southwest 1059
OP-St. Thomas Aquinas 905
Pittsburg 771
Shawnee-Mill Valley 1290
Tecumseh-Shawnee Heights 1136
Topeka West 922
Topeka-Highland Park 755
Topeka-Seaman 1202

We can continue this argument into 5A as well where you will find that nearly 47% of the 5A schools are east of this mythical wrestle talent dividing wall.

Eastern KS schools are not fairing much better in 5A either going just 3 for 35. Does anyone disagree that this is a bit embarrassing???

It is time to CHANGE. We need to wake up and challenge our athletic directors, coaches, wrestlers, and parents to do things differently. Think outside of the box called the past and figure out some new plans. Make your schedule tougher. Walk the halls and grab those kids that are not a part of anything now. Figure out ways to get more kids involved like scheduling more tournaments and fielding two teams. "He is not ready for varsity" is the biggest crock of crap you can try to sell. If you have wrestlers at every weight then bring ALL of them! I guarantee you they will NOT get any better sitting at home playing X Box. USA Wrestling is offering a $300 deal to get ALL of your wrestlers a card. When KSHSAA season is over send them to the nearest kids club and tell them to wrestle in the USA Kids State Series. If you are afraid of what is happening in your kids club then get involved! It is time for the excuses to be put in the round file and lets develop some solutions (and by the way, OPEN MAT is not a solution!). Lets tip the scale and bring two state championship trophies EAST of that mythical line this year and every year hereafter!
_________________________

You act as though people in these communities give a crap about wrestling. They don't, and why would they? The only way a kid has a chance at placing at state is to devote his entire life to the sport. Many people can't afford to bring in world class coaches. Kansas wrestling may have gotten better on a national stage in the last 15 years, but if you ask me, it's killing the sport. In the 80's a person could join a team in Jr. high and still have success. Not today (very few). We have been so concerned about getting better that we have run off anyone who isn't. The result: nobody cares about wrestling anymore (except the few elite). The popularity is gone.

I would rather have 50 kids who have a chance at success over a few nationally elite. The outside world sees it as an individual sport because that's exactly what it has become.

If you want to see the kind of popularity wrestling had in the 80's we need to figure out a way for newer kids to be able to compete again.

I disagree that you have to devote your whole life to the sport to be a state placer. I am sure Beeson would agree since we most the kids who qualify for state. I have coached several kids who did not start wrestling until high school and they had success. Did they just wrestle during the high school season? No, they put in extra work outside the season, whether wrestling, lifting, or other means of conditioning.

I also don't feel that no one cares about wrestling anymore. I have worked in large schools (in Wichita) and currently working in a small school (Stafford) I think the sport is still very much so relevant. If anything I think the sport is growing in popularity. I am seeing more kids clubs and I think we have excellent wrestling advocates all over the state that do an excellent job promoting our sport.

Reality says just the opposite of what you posted.

http://www.nwcaonline.com/nwcawebsite/savingwrestlinghome/facts.aspx

Lots of good kids up in the northeast coming out of east kansas and a couple other clubs into high shcool? Is the talent just spread out to too many schools?

Ark City has 15-20 kids come out as 7th and 8th graders and have success. They continue at the High School level because Coach Buckbee makes it fun and exciting during High School.

I blame it on Parents and Kids wanting things without working for them. Johnson County is probably one of the richest counties in the state. A lot of kids and parents are used to being able to just buy what they want or get it easily. It's a mind set. I'm not saying every rich kid or rich parent doesn't know how to work or earn something because there are plenty that do.

The kids in these poor rural areas know how to work hard and earn what they get. Get 4 or 5 brothers at a dinner table and sometimes they have to fight just to get a bite.

I'm sure I'll take a beating for this post, but I usually do take beatings for my post. Food for thought, think about how hard your kids have to work for what they get in life. Do they know how to get knocked down and get back up, or do they get knocked down and quit?

I totally agree with the fact that kids want instant success without having to work hard for it!!! I also feel that one doesn't have to do all the national events to find success!! If they come out their 7th grade year are willing to work hard and are coachable then I feel they can be state placers before they graduate from high school!! I have that much confidence in my coaching staff to say that this is possible!! One of the biggest things we are proud of out here is the fact that we are successful with the demographics and social economic status of most of our kids! We get them to buy into our system and they are (most anyway) willing to put in the work it takes to be successful! Lastly it was said to get involved, that is so true!!

I sure didn't.

Hey, I'm just following your example. Posting my opinion all over the place when no one asked for it.

If you want to follow my example please bring data. If I have taught you to just run your mouth with your keyboard and no supporting evidence then I am a terrible teacher. Maybe you are challenged on the Forum because you have to refrain from lacing your posts with profanity like your comic routines.

It appears to me that a significant number of your posts are immediately following mine. I hope you don't have man crush on me?

Man up and admit that you showed your ignorance earlier today. I would.

Steve -- Although devoting one's life to the sport definitely helps in the level of success, there are still a few examples of that not being mandatory.

I had the pleasure of watching Michael Baker compete for Smoky Valley High School in 4A. He started wrestling as a sophomore in high school in 2004. He pinned his first opponent that year in some type of chest press that I had never witnessed before -- it literally looked like he was doing a push-up on top of his opponent. 2 days later, he went 0-2 in a JV tournament and walked off the mat saying "I'm never doing that @#$t again." Two years later, he placed 2nd at state with a record of 39-2 -- losing in the last second of a 6-5 match in the finals to Derek Heckel of Ulysses.

I'm not saying it was easy. But it can be done. It just takes the right attitude and a lot of hard work.

Just an idea I have had, but what would allowing successful jv wrestlers to compete in regionals as an unattached nonscoring wrestler do for the sport? I see it as a way to possibly solve a couple issues we have with the sport. In the 8 team regionals you could fill out a bracket to 12 kids with jv kids and make every bracket full and make everyone earn a trip to state. It would take care of the issue of loosing records qualifying for state because many schools have a 2nd or 3rd wrestler at a weight that could qualify if not place at state. Also it may keep some more kids interested in the sport at the high school level seeing that they will have more opportunity to get to the state tournament. Would just like to hear some feedback on the idea as I see it as a way to improve the sport.

Chief, those numbers are miss leading. Even you have to admit wrestling was more popular in the 80s. Back in the good old days whole towns would show up to watch a tournament or meet.


Ron, was that Baker kid in the upper weights? I find that newer kids can compete with a lot more success in the upper weights. You're not gonna find very many New kids in the middleweights are lower that places at state.

Corey, I like what you're thinking, it's not exactly what I had in mind, but that's the right track. I honestly think redoing the classes so that each one has 48 schools would help this problem.

Why not just have a JV state?

To me a jv state is kind of like the rookie nationals. Let the better jv kids have a chance to prove themselves against the better kids in the state. We are always looking to seek tougher competition. Also a jv state would have the added cost of another tournament. This way the only added cost would be the teams that bring an extra wrestler to where they are already going.

Steve, The numbers are what they are. The sport is growing. The top tournaments have awesome crowds. One issue that is hurting our fan participation is the limit of scheduling points imposed by KSHSAA. This has led to the decline of individual duals. They need to add points specifically for duals to bring together the local fans.

I would have to disagree with you as well. I do not have exact numbers, but it seems to me that wrestling numbers have increased in many areas of the state. I have been part of the coaching staff in the Hays Wrestling Club program for about 10yrs, and our numbers have at least doubled in that short time. We have had to buy extra singlets, and gear to accommodate all of our wrestlers (a good problem to have).

As far as your comments about having to give your life to wrestling to be successful. I disagree again. Would we like our kids to wrestle year around? Absolutely, but if they don’t want to we ask them to try to stay active. Football, baseball, track, etc..... an athlete can be successful if he/she puts in the hard work, has a good attitude, and is coachable.

Lance Geyer
Hays Wrestling Club

Chief, I agree with you about the points. Big duels bring in a fan base. And schools should have fun with it (mat lights, smoke and music, ext.) There needs to be set times when the varsity duel begins (no matter if the JV isn't done wrestling. They can finish at the end). And the attendance, I can't speak for the other classes, but I thought 6A &5A State has not been attended well the last 5 years (a lot of empty seats). Was 4A and 3A any better?

Geyer, That is true in regards to the few successful programs in the state, but I'm talking about the High School duels and tournaments. The average schools (in all classes) are having trouble filling teams. Oh, and I can only name on one hand the kids who placed in the last five years who didn't start wrestling until JR. High. You see more new comers in the upper weights, but very, very few other wise.

Speak for yourself! Many of the schools in south central Kansas have as many or more duals as they ever did. In addition, the duals I attend are, more often than not, well attended with enthusiastic crowds.
While attendance at "top tournaments", that's only about 4 tournaments may be up, the attendance at the rest of the tournaments continues to decline. I attribute that decline to two main factors. 1. The thought of youth coaches and parents that their kids need to be wrestling somewhere EVERY Saturday of the season and the further from home the better. In years past, even when kids were wrestling the same day as their high school they often could make it home in time to watch, what should be their mentors, wrestle. If your youth wrestler is wrestling in BFE every Saturday then he isn't going to see much high school wrestling. 2. The first and foremost reason IMO for tournament attendance decline is tournaments are not run in such a manner so as to encourage attendance by fans. How many tournaments receive advance advertising or publicity today? Even if they do, are firm session start times, particularly for the finals, posted or adhered to? With today's computer programs high school tournaments run much more predictably so session times should be publicized and barring weather should be run per that schedule. Also, if you are going to have real time results online don't expect people to show up in greater numbers.
As usual, people are asking KSHAA to force them to do what is best for the sport as a whole. If you want more duals, then simply schedule more duals!

I agree that more emphasis needs to be put on duals. Duals are fan friendly and can get your student population involved. We dropped a 2-day tournament (which we loved going to) in order to pick up more duals. We will have 5 home varsity duals plus our JV WAC Dual Championships this year. We have a student section right next to the mat (which has on average 100 students in it), spotlight, music, etc. We will be bringing in our drumline this year as well. It's taken a lot of work to get it that way and we still have a lot of work to keep our fan base growing.

I grew up in Iowa and we would have 10-12 duals, not including dual tournaments. We had maybe 3 or 4 tournaments. Wrestling duals are huge there. Obviously tournaments are important for our kids in order to get prepared for the state series (We got to some pretty tough ones). However, duals are important for our sport's popularity in the schools/community and to attract parents to the sport.

There are many good points in this stream. Since I started it I hope it is ok for me to post my opinion even though no one asked me for it

1. Wrestling is for the kids. The more opportunities we create the more kids we get. I don't agree with having to create opportunities for success just to facilitate growth. Success comes from making the right choices and I think that is what we have to teach.
2. Ask EVERY high school wrestler what their goal is and I guarantee a landslide majority will have a "STATE" goal of some type (going, winning matches, placing, being a champion). NO ARGUMENT HERE.
3. State is a two day event. FACT
4. How do you prepare for State? Go to as many two day events allowed! DUALS do not get you ready for state and we don't have a dual state which is the ONLY real way to determine the best team in the state.
5. I LOVE duals and I want more. So I DO ADVOCATE a mission to get KSHSAA to add 5 points to be used ONLY for a single dual on a Mon, Tue, Wed, or Thur after school schedule. Kansas wrestlers have some of the lowest season match totals in the country. We could stand five more matches. Our kids are not wimps.
6. Our Kids State series is run past the end of the HS season. Yes, this creates conflict. Greg has his opinion and I respectfully disagree with most of it. There are 8000 kids buying cards and maybe 80 of them are wrestling outside of the state. Maybe 3000 of them are wrestling EVERY Saturday. Weekday night duals are sorely needed to pump some life into the student body and make it more parent friendly.
7. I do NOT think that the internet or access to real time information is hurting attendance. If you can attend in person you will. Those tools are for those who can't. It is expensive to drive to a tournament. Some people are physically unable to make it. Others have to work. The internet is partially responsible for the growth we have seen the last 20 years.
8. Coach apathy is a problem. Too many times I see teams leave before the finals if their team has no one in them. Too many times I hear coaches complaining about the number of hours they have to put in so they want to get done and leave. This is a problem. Fix this and the bar will be raised in KS. If you are coaching for the check then step down and lets find a passionate coach to take the helm.
9. I totally agree with publicizing and fixed scheduling. I really like it when the order of the finals is switched up to put the marquee match last. I LOVE tournament finals that are run by themselves. Last year's 5A and 6A state finals were a disgrace to KSHSAA. The finalist should not be sharing the crowd with two other placement matches.

In WI the kids tournaments are on Sunday to facilitate the attendance of HS events. Of course this creates other challenges.

I see lots of causes listed by Sport0, how about proposing some solutions...

Answer me this, Could Dan Gable go into the average high school in Kansas in win a state title in one year?

NO WAY. we need to make it more competitive so more kids will want to go out. To me it is more important for a kid to wrestle than to have ONE state tournament.

I honestly believe if every kid in the United States would wrestle it would solve a lot of this country's problems. I AM PASSOINATE ABOUT WRESTLING AND THINK EVERY KID SHOULD DO IT.

Therefore, I am all about which ever system gets more kids out.

I thought that is what I just did.

Easily!!! He is of a mentality that no longer exists in the "Average High School" or "Average Kid".

Ron Burgandy......Baker was a freaking stud, and after his finals match I gave the kid a big ol' bear hug when he came to our corner. I told him that I was proud of him. My assistant asked me why I did that, and I really didn't have a good answer. I'm sure I made something up, but the fact of the matter was that he was your first finalist, I believe, and was a really good kid. I WAS proud of him.
Heckel, by the way, is living in Australia and coaching wrestling at some MMA gym, trying to make it in the sport. I wish him the best too. Wrestlers... gotta love em

"Coaches are not promoting their programs. They are not walking the halls and pulling kids in with a motivating talk."

We are supposed to be doing this?? Seems like a lot of work!

Does Dan Gable have the coaching ability to do this? ABSOLUTELY. A better question is would the parents let him be a coach that he needs to be. It appears to me that many kids never reach their full potential, because they may have been yelled at or told they need to work harder by their coach, and then the parents are at the school or school board complaining that the coach yelled at my son/daughter. I know this is not the case at every school and with every wrestler, but it does seem to be happening more often, as parents want their kids to be successful, but not have to put in the work to do so.

Just my opinion for what it is worth.

I think the above opinion is spot on these days. I do not know if my coaches or my coaching style can even work these days...success is wanted, the hard work and discipline to do it..well...not so much

The pussification of America...just what the Liberals want! Public education's philosophy, in general, a giant push for mediocrity.

Two Great Posts here. We have had good coaches fired here in Ark City for being too hard on the kids. Everybody wants to be good but few want to put in the time, effort, or discipline. Too many parents call the school to complain about working too hard or pushing the kids too much and then wonder why they do not get the results that they want, or used to get when parents let the coaches, coach.

I remember watching kids get jerked around by their facemasks in football. I remember getting only one water break a practice. I remember being pushed in the wrestling room to the point of tears. Coaches are not allowed to build character anymore. The kids are allowed to quit.

Pussification of America is running rampant, and it is the fault of THE PARENTS.

This is not just a Public Education's problem. I see it everywhere, private schools included. Even your beloved St. James.

What you hypocrites call Pussification of America is total CRAP. You talk about things as though every program is the same. You don't get it. I don't even want to hear it if you're from a private school. Private schools have a huge advantage over public. But we're not talking about kids that move to Manhattan because of the great wrestling program. We are talking about kids who are receiving something for going to a private school. They get "scholarships" to go a private school. Boosters have been known to provide jobs for their parents (only if they switch). Some even go so far to pay for an apartment so a kid can move from one side of the state to the other.

What ever happened to a level playing field?! I guess you guys support using steroids and false birth certificates too. Any thing to win, right? Save all this crap you've been spewing out your mouth for someone Who might actually buy your BS.

I am not even sure what the heck you are talking about? Did you start drinking at lunch today?

Dammit. Twice today I have agreed with Cokeley...I'm starting to wonder if I started drinking at Lunch today.

Pretty sure close to every single thread this guy posts on he finds a way making it to a "private schools are cheaters" topic. Time for a new hobby.

How did this turn into "Rich kid, poor kid"? Doesn't matter where or how you grew up. Kids who want to succeed will and always have. Now if we are going off kids who want to wrestle as Freshman, (Who have never done it before) then yes, they aren't going to do well against wrestlers who have been doing for years. No matter school size, public, or private.
Example; I went to a 4A School in the late 80s early 90s. Never wrestled before my sophomore year. Got my ass kicked first year but came back for more. 2nd year drew the likes of E.K. Franks and Johnny McCreary, still got killed but stuck with it. Was I a state champion NO, but I grew to love the sport an am still coaching today. FYI I was the poor kid. But wouldn't change a single thing.

My post was not pointing fingers at private or public schools in general, or even only wrestling in general. Parents are crying to the school boards, or to the school administration too often. It happens in many sports.

Again this is just my opinion.

Lance Geyer

I think only Steve Moser has decided that it was time to make unsubstantiated, unfounded, grossly inaccurate, untrue, ludicrous, ridiculous, asinine statements. If Tim Moeder were still reading this he might seek Mr. Moser out. I know that Steve likes to be on the stage as he is a stand up comic wannabe. Since he likes being in the spotlight I will invite him to St. James so he can talk to all of the parents and find out just HOW STUPID his comments are. Then we will put him on a stage in an Octagon for a fundraiser. He can do his stand up routine in fighter shorts then he and I can go at it UFC style for three rounds. I think we could make some good money for a fighting comic show. Any thoughts on how much we should sell tickets for? Anyone else want a shot at Steve?

This crap gets old! I remember last year speaking to a administrator at the Catholic school my kids attended and we got on this subject. He laughed and told me the only athlete we had that did not attend a catholic junior high/grade school was a jv soccer player that was a foreign exchange student. I'm fairly certain that the instances of kids being brought into a private school simply for their athletic ability are few and far between.

I once heard a dad called another dad from a school across the state and asked him to put his kid at a different weight so his kid had a better chance of winning a title!

Now as far as Wills comments about Pussification and Liberals... Well it just made a conservative republican like myself smile really big

Coakley, first you threaten to sue me then you want to fight me. Which is it? If you want me you can find me at this address:
115 N 4th St, #2
Manhattan, ks.

I'm not buying your crap and anyone who does I don't really care so you can save your posts.

It is C O K E L E Y...If we have an official it wouldn't be a fight it would be competition. When did I say I wanted to sue you? If I did it was an out of body moment. Everyone knows that only the attorneys win in a lawsuit. I don't like to lose. Honestly Steve, I am not trying to sell you anything. You do a great job of showing who you are and what you are all about. You don't need my help. I started this off with some data and some clean opinion and you went straight into attack mode just like you always do. I am driving back from Hays on Sunday, maybe I will take exit 303 and meet you for coffee.