Would Kansas be better without class wrestling?

Kansas has gone through class wrestling experiment for 40 years now. So obviously its well ingrained and what people know. But is it really the best thing for the fans, wrestlers or wrestling community as a whole. The region around Kansas had also ocommitted to class wrestling, but does Kansas have to follow. Kansas falls in the majority of states that have class wrestling or 41 of them at last count. But some large states with good wrestling pull off one state tournament such as California, Indiana and New Jersey. You have to admit quality wrestlers from these states. Could it be partially due to the competition created by the one tournament. Imagine the best guys lining up for the finals and going after the state championship with the whole wrestling community watching Theres pros and cons of both sides.

But everybody lists and heres my list of pros:

1. State finals presentation: You have one and the best and could put under the lights. Check CA or In finals and the atmosphere is electric. No competing matches.

2. You solve the problem of multiple locations. No problem with getting it all in.

3. It would add national respect or validity to state placers and state qualifiers. Cant argue anymore that its watered down. You have to admit four classes out of small population state waters the level down. Look at some of the records of the guys going to state. 32% of all potential varsity positions qulify for state and its 50% at 6a and 5a.

4. The increased competition for fewer spots increases the level of Kansas wrestling at top levels.

5. The small guys get their shot at the big guys. Wrestling is an individual sport. I understand classing football, basketball, etc is needed to the overwhelming advantage of school size. But wrestling is 1 on 1 and doesnt really matter how big your school is.

6. Overwhelming travel costs of sending so many wrestlers to the state tourmanent. So many kids go, it has to be expensive to send on budgets including food and hotel rooms.

7. Lets recognize the true effort and skill of the best wrestlers. The top guys just get thrown in with everybody else and dont get to shine for what they' ve achieved.

8. College recruiting aspect. This would give a more focused perspective on the talent and would give the college coaches a better venue to look at Kansas wrestlers.

I know there is a list of cons that go with it like it could be discouraging for small programs. But just putting out for thought.

Would Kansas be better off without class Track & Field, Tennis, Golf, x-country?

In my opinion the answer to both questions is yes. I also believe that football and basketball could use some consolidating of classes.

Ponder this analogy . . . The KC Chiefs live in a little, bitty cow-town . . . compared to the New York Jets/Giants . . . Yet they both play in the SAME league . . . I'm sure the analogy has many holes in it . . . so blast away.

Fan wrote:

5. The small guys get their shot at the big guys. Wrestling is an individual sport. I understand classing football, basketball, etc is needed to the overwhelming advantage of school size. But wrestling is 1 on 1 and doesnt really matter how big your school is.

^^^Dean says, "Excellent point! I remember when this little freshman from some town I never heard of (Sabetha) came to the JC tourney. I noted that he would have a VERY TOUGH JC SENIOR in the finals. I thought, 'This poor little Sabetha kid. . . just a freshman going up against SENIOR MB (I taught MB for a few years in elementary school - GREAT KID - hard worker, humble, etc)

Freshman Matt Pyle tossed the JC senior around for about 1:30 seconds before sticking MB in the FIRST PERIOD. I was in shock.

MB took third in 6A at the state tourney that year. Pyle was a state champ from a small school that year (I don't even think Sabetha was 4a). IMPRESSIVE.

I also like the idea but just to clarify how a state like NJ does it, they do have classes...they call them groups. Group 4 being large school like KS' 6a down thru Group 1. Heck they even have two parochial groups. They compete as teams in the state duals...starting with south/central/north jersey group dual tournaments and then the winners go to state dual finals. However, when it's time for the individual tournament to start everyone gets lumped together starting with districts, regions, super regions(which is actually the pigtails if you will of the state tournament) and then states. But they can have these dual tournaments AND a grand state because first they have population to support it (32 districts all with FULL 16+man brackets and top 3 advance to regions...you advance from districts and you still have 95 other guys alive...think about that!)and second, overall the state seems to focus more on duals rather than tournaments. On average, a school will have 18-22 duals with 2-4 tournaments whereas here in KS, correct me if I'm wrong, but average seems to be 8-12 duals and 6-8 tournaments. But obviously that's because there's not a dual state and each coach tries to prepare their wrestlers for the type of state tournament it has. Obviously I have a soft spot for NJ being from there and serving my 12 years on the mat in the state, but I've come to really enjoy KS wrestling and love the amount of mat time kids get out here due to the amount of tournaments. Isn't there a few kids with close to 50 matches going into this weekend?? If we went undefeated and won state you're probably around 30-0 give or take. Anyways sorry for the novel, but it's been a while since I've posted. It's nice to have a good topic like this to discuss and debate rather than some of the other nonsense that has come along the last couple weeks. Great for the sport...great for KS wrestling. Good luck to all wrestlers from all classes this weekend ( but maybe just an extra wish of luck to the boys from GE!). Go Blazers!!

Keith Heniss

If Kansas goes to one class it will all but kill wrestling in Kansas. Participation would drop dramatically. I wrestled every year for a chance to go to state. If they would have combined all the classes there is no way I would've gone to state. I would've quit because there would be no payoff. You do this and all you're going to be left with is the extremely dedicated wrestling in high school. No one else would even stand a chance or even care about it (it's kind of getting that way now). What do you want? Our sport to grow and have an impact on thousands upon thousands of kids lives or a chance to see everyone wrestle in one building. Post just seems kind of selfish to me. It's not always about getting Kansas All-Americans. It's the principles that wrestling gives you, that's what matters. Everyone. Should. Wrestle.

ABSOLUTLY!

I know you can argue that California has decent participation for high school wrestling, but think how much better they could be doing if they had split classes. Can you imagine if California had more people involved in wrestling? You would see more wrestling in movies, it's popularity would grow, and it would become more mainstream. If anything I think we should advocate California to become like us. We need more cauliflower ear in the movies!!!

I guess it all depends on what you value. Steve makes some good points regarding growing the interest with all levels of wrestlers, not just the top shelf guys who have wrestled since kindergarten. "fan" values a single tourney which allows the best of all classes compete at the same tournament.

At the end of the day, I suspect there will be resistance to collapse 4 tournaments down to one, which means going from 896 wrestlers (4 tourneys * 14 weights * 16 wrestlers) down to 224 (14 * 16). That's a big drop off in the number of wrestlers and families and coaches and managers and cheerleaders spending money on food and gas and lodging and t-shirts and tickets. We are talking a significant amount of dollars.

That's a good point. I never even thought about that.

Regardless of how you try to sell it, one size does not fit all. I would also agree with those who say it would hurt Kansas wrestling, participation and overall public following which is just not good for the sport.

Why does it have to be limited to a 16 man bracket?

How about this; wrestle the state championships as they are now. Top 4 from each weight class move on to the next week for the All Class State Championship. That way you still have a 6a, 5a, 4a & 321a state champion in each class and then you will have a All Class State Champion. Easy, right?

"Easy, right?"

Ask the kids that are cutting weight each weekend!
Good luck to all the wrestlers this weekend, go for the gold!

I have. One of them is my son. If you know him you know he does cut the weight.

So you're you saying, we need class wrestling to stimulate the economy. Im sure the amount of food the cheereleaders are buying has a big effect on KS GDP. Counterpoint to this is the economically stressed and budget conscious schools now have to pay for extra hotel rooms, larger buses, more meals. KSHSAA has to pay to rent 3 facilities instead of 1. Maybe if you have one site and put a better product by attaining higher level of wrestling and create the big wrestling event for the community, you generate more interest and sell more t-shirts and tickets. Proabably a more profitable venture for everybody.

You could not be more wrong about my point. In no way did I say we need 4 tourneys to stimiulate the economy. Please read my post (slowly if you have to). I said there would be resistance. Either you didn't understand the simple point I was making, or I didn't make simple enough. So let me try again:

People (KSHSAA, chambers of commerce, politicians, etc...) will be resistant to the dip in revenue which would result from a consolidated tournament. To think otherwise would be having your head in the sand.

Steve, so you're saying the only reason you wrestled was the chance to go to state. So you got the intrinsic reward from beating 1 or 2 average local kids in regional tourney and you obtained your lofty goal of state qualifier. You were able to get the patch on your letter jacket and show off to your friends. The free hotel room and little lunch money and day off school helped you stick out the tough practices and cutting weight. So when you were younger did you stick out another year of t-ball becuase you got your participation ribbon. Maybe the reason kids arent sticking out for wrestling is the low bar we set. For example, the works hard and buys into the program and had some motivatiing intrisic values, and then he gets grouped in with the kid with the 5-20 record who wins won match at regionals and qualifies for state.

Its just a different paradign with one state tournament. Goals would be altered based on skill level and kids could be recognized for reaching a level. You would have to have to have different levels of a state tournanent series. Indiana has a sectional, regional, semi-state and then state level. Kids still are recongnized for being regional and semi-state qualifiers and very proud of this.

I totally addressed your comment, did you read my comment. Of course there would be resistance. It would take some economic spending out of Hays, Salina and Wichita if you moved it from there and the chambers and businsses wouldnt be happy (and maybe some politicians). But you still would have a regional substate or semi-state in four parts of the state would offset the losses from the state tournaments held know. The community that obtained the one state tournament would also see a huge gain in economic spending. KSHSAA would only have to tournament to administer and one rent to pay plus probably would have increased attendance or more revenue.

What I object to is you restating my point into something I didn't say. Don't re-state the simple point I made into something else. I never said we need class wrestling, let alone we need it to stimulate the economy. We can work through the other pieces of the discussion, but don't run from wrongfully changing up anything I posted.

I will open Pandora's box again with an outside the box idea. Lets say we could get all of the tournaments into one location on one weekend (wishful thinking, I know). This could even move around from year to year as to not favor one area or town with the business and tournament. Plot set.

Along with the current schedule the tournament would run Fri/Sat. From this tournament you could take the four state champions and put them in a round robin tournament on Sunday. I know this will invigorate people but upsets happen. I know you will have cases were a kid won a state championship as an underclassman that didn't win as a senior. Under the scenario I am proposing the Grand State tournament would let your four champions wrestle it off on Sunday regardless of age. I know people will hate this idea but why not throw it out there.

I know three days of wrestling is tough but making the weight could be the worst, which is why I would propose a growth allowance for this tournament of 5-10 pounds for the Sunday competition.

These four wrestlers would wrestle the other 3 state champions in a round robin format to declare the winner by record or by standard tie breaking rules set forth by KSHSAA and the NFHS.

I know there are flaws. Like previous state champions not being in the running but that would only be a problem for the first three years of the tournament. This tournament would only be to determine the Grand State Champion.


This would be a way for spectators to see 42 amazing matches, with the champions from that year. As well as offer a great recruiting weekend for colleges to come view Kansas Wrestling at it's best.

Let the controversy begin, I know it's not perfect but what is.

We have two classes in pa. AA and AAA lots and lots of kids that don't make the state tournament and our participation numbers are growing. To say you would quit if you didn't think you could make it to state is pathetic and disturbing. You took everything that wrestling is supposed to teach you and spit on it. Hard work dedication never give up or tell all these kids it's getting hard so you better quit cause you might not make state

All based on perspective. In my view it would not be near as good. Bottom line you would have less fans, parents, coaches, wrestlers, and cheerleaders at the state tournament. Therefore less people that care about the outcome. On top of that smaller towns wouldn't stand a chance a team placing...which would eliminate are part of the state competition for them. If you want your all class have your wrester compete in the kids championships in Topeka. If that isn't big enough for you go to nationals...if that isn't big enough for you enter the Olympic trials.

The PA state tournament is a meat grinder. They say PA AAA arguably could could be maybe toughest state tournament in the country even though its classed. If you make it through, you're tough. My son wrestles in Indiana and didn't make state this year but did get through sectionals and regionals but lost to the state runner up in first round of semi-state. He's not going to quit but was really encouraged that he made it far and plans on working hard in the off season to improve.

Greendog,

You're right its about perspective. See the internet link below to get a perspective on how the Kansas system compares to other states. Its pretty interesting.


http://www.indianamat.com/stuff/statebreakdown.html

I agree it would be tougher for smaller towns, but they still could find a method to win team championships by an added dual format or you could score 4 different team classifications based on the scoring from the individual tournament.

You're also right that there would be less parents, coaches and wrestlers at state but it would be a lot better for the fan instead of the chopped up 3 location sites they have now. I think you would see significant fan growth as you would be show casing the top talent in the state. Just think about the anticipation you would have for the Dulgarian vs Lambotte matchup.

Simple question? Do the kids want it? More than likely NO. Daddys want it. Ask the guys who try to fill the weights at the SR. Classic how hard it is to do that.
Not going to happen so get over it.

I agree! ONLY chance is a Grand State and that chance is slim and nill since NO OTHER high school sport in Kansas has it. I guess if we are dreaming, nothing wrong with dreaming big. That said, a Grand State would be great for wrestling.

How about 2 classes with 32 qualifiers, and place the top eight? We would still have the same amount of attendence and state qualifiers. Probably more because it would be a bigger better tournament than we have now with more of the top kansas talent meeting. Would be going from 24 to 16 state placers. Would be a 3 day tournament in one or two locations. Its better than having losing records and opens at the state tournament. It also makes it easier to set up an all-star dual big schools against small. Thoughts? I am dreaming!