KSHSAA get it together...1 venue

After having attended the Missouri State Wrestling tournament the past 2 years, and then attending the Kansas State tournaments the next week, it is ridiculous that they are spread out over 3 different areas. I usually hit one on Friday and then another on Saturday, having to drive over 1.5 hours between them. Missouri puts all classes into 3 days, 1 venue. The Kansas Coliseum is suitable in size to do the same thing. This would save revenue cost for the association and make it much more fan friendly and more easily for coaches to recruit. What college coach wants to drive several hours, during different days to try and recruit. It hurts the sport.

Couldn't agree more!

100% on target.

Yes!

Someone needs to spearhead this operation!

Agreed! This is and always has been crazy. Having seen the Iowa state tournament for a number of years, I cannot understate that Kansas is still spread out like this. Revenue, excitement promoting our sport & cost are just a few factors that should jump out when looking at this. Not to mention wrestling in front of 15000 fans as a highlight of your High School career. Moreover the revenue generated at this event would certainly benefit KSHSAA. Joe Pratt

1000% on point!

Once the season is over I would be happy to write up/present/propose whatever needs to be done. I'll find out from my AD what avenues I need to go through to get this in the right hands. In the mean time, let's use this thread to discuss logistics for a proposal. After I write it up I will post here for input. So, let's get specific...

What's the venue?
What's the format? (all classes over 3 days? How many times do we weigh in, etc?)
et cetera

3 Days, 3 weigh ins, That is what other states do and might help to control some of the cutting.. Venue??? Any of the colleges have a big enough gym that would not be a arm and a leg? What is in Wichita? I thought the Coliseum was in moth balls?

Missouri State is run over the course of 3 days with I believe 7 sessions. It is at Mizzou Arena with 8 mats being used for 4 classes.

Day 1 - Thursday
Class 1/2 weigh-ins 8am
1 round/1st round wrestle backs from 10am-2pm
Both classes wrestle on 4 different mats
Class 3/4 weigh-ins 3pm
1st round/1st round wrestle backs from 5-10

Day 2
Class 1/2 in the morning session and wrestle up to the semis and bubble round
Class 3/4 in the afternoon session and same thing...both sessions are on 8 mats

All classes come together in the evening with Semi's and bubble matches being wrestled at the same time. Each class competes on 2 mats one for the semis and one for the bubble

Day 3 - IF you have to make weight this day you are a state medalist.

All classes together on 8 mats to finish consolation semi's and then 3rd and 5th Place matches. Finals start at 4:30 and are run on 4 mats.

Bad part about the finals is it takes 5 hours. I would like to see the state of Mo wrestle the finals through all 14 weights and then essential have all the medal presentations at the end in the four corners of the floor. It would force people to stay through the end of the finals instead of getting their medals and leaving.

Love the idea!! Can't use the KS coliseum, it closed for that type of use years ago. Intrust bank arena is the "big" venue in Wichita that replaced it and would great if you could get the date.

What about Topeka where kids state is held? 5 different age groups and several more weight classes in kids and they do it in two days? Could be done in 3 days, would be crowded until the first two rounds and 1 backside round is wrested but at least it would be full, which would be a great atmosphere.

So we need to list the options that can hold 8 full mats on the floor. Topeka EXPO, InTrust, Hartman (but it does not have the seating for 4 classes). Others? It would be great if a Wichita State, K-State or a Washburn would "donate" the facility for 3 days for support of the KSHSAA. That might be dreaming....

Regardless of what people will tell you, Intrust does NOT have enough parking. When they have an event of any size, they bus the attendees in from Lawrence Dumont stadium. While that works for a concert or symposium, it doesn't work for an event of this nature where people would like to be coming and going throughout the day. This is the reason Intrust does not make a bid for high school state and why the Expo Center magically under bids Intrust each contract for kids state. They are both managed by the same company.

The university venues are made entirely for that other sport and could only handle 4 mats on the floor. While the Expo could handle it over three days, I can't imagine how bad the hotels would gouge all of us considering what they do to us for kids state. There simply isn't a venue that meets all of our needs at this time.

Sprint - 18K+
Intrust - 15K+
Allen Fieldhouse - 16K+
Bramlage - 12K+
Expo - 10K+
BiCenter - 7K+
American Star Casino is 3,500-6K depending on arrangement.
Gross Memorial - 6K+

After those everything drops below 5K.

Intrust and Sprint center do not have much "onsite" parking. People complained to no end about parking when Intrust was built but it really hasn't stopped many going to events there and lets be honest we all could use a walk here and there. Lot's of options to get there if you can't walk far and don't qualify for handicap parking.

Topeka bids better for kids state because in part it has a much larger economic impact on the city than it would in Wichita. Better return. Intrust is almost too big for kids state when you consider price of rent and what they need out of blocking 3-4 dates on their calendar. And don't start on the hotel pricing....any city that host a event that maxes out the hotel capacity will increase rates, fact of life.

I don't support a one class site. Lot of reasons. But regardless, here are some possible negatives that would affect a lot of people:

*more missed class time, school admins will not support something that pulls kids out of school even more than they already are

*more expenses for schools (hotel, meal money, bus drivers, sub pay for coaches out of the classroom, admins travelling), again school admins are not going to support anything that hurts school budgets more

*lot of travel for lot of towns, you make the 321A teams travel to Wichita or Topeka, many less fans would be able to attend and they would have to spend lot more to do so

*overall less fans go, currently the sites are regionally located with proximity of the most schools in that class, this leads to more fans overall in attendance, which is a good thing for the sport

*more missed work time for parents/fans to watch, and they already have had to miss work for other tourneys throughout the year, Regionals, etc.

*more expenses for families, hotel, food, further travel...this isn't good for our sport.

*in Missouri, the entire day is only for 1 match per kid, right? I may be wrong here

*I like being our own show in Salina for 4A, less traffic, parking ease, less lines, ease of finding hotels/restaurants, fans can sit closer to the action, easier for floor space & maneauverability

*Would hate to see FHSU lose 321A, that tournament has been there for many years, and it is perfect arrangement for those towns & communities

Us die-hards can sit for 3 straight days & watch wrestling and we'll travel wherever we need to go. But if we REALLY want to grow our sport, I don't think we need to pursue ideas that only make it harder for the common fans/parents than it already is. Adding to that burden for parents, kids, schools does not make the sport for everyone, but more for the select few that love it like we do.

And personally, I probably wouldn't spend much time watching the other classes anyway. I occasionally pull up results on Track as I have time to check some results, when I get a minute. But that's about it.

Those are some of my thoughts to the idea, anyway.

The days where 4A, 5A, and 6A were combined were great/horrible. It was awesome to see the crowd and all the classes, finals were great, but the venue was a dump, security was horrible, and the time schedule was brutal. The move to split 4A allowed each site to have 4 mats per class (is it that way in Wichita for 5/6A), which allows teams to get out, eat, and get to their hotel before midnight. Saturday's schedule allows for the finals and travel time to get back home. It is what's in the best interest of the student athlete, at least that is the theory anyways. I agree with Kit in that missing more class time and more expense to schools, parents, etc...is a hard sell. It would be great to see the large crowds, but the trade offs have to be pretty convincing to persuade the powers that be. The same can be said to the weigh-ins in Kansas.

Sorry Kit, there's one reason alone that trumps any negative you can think of and that is college recruiting! We need to do it exactly like Missouri. Including not running our state tournament the same weekend as regionals for D2s and Junior College nationals.

Kit,

What kind of wrestling supporter are you? There are only a handful of states in the entire country that don't host all classes in the same building. Everyone is missing class on Thursday now so that class time argument is LAME... The fact is that most of your points don't even add up. I have been to the three class in one building many times and then the 4A in Salina as well as 5A/6A. The 4A tournament is about as LAME as the 4A rankings have been all year. Later I will pick apart all of your points.

I support wrestling, Will, it's a great sport. I just have some different opinions on few things like we all do. That's the great thing about this forum, we can discuss/debate these & create more positives for our sport & the kids involved, especially when we do it respectfully. We all benefit. I was just throwing my thoughts out there to contribute to the discussion.

Some of my points can surely be debated, maybe even proven wrong. That's ok. But others are just my personal preferences. And I am only speaking for me, I have no idea how many other coaches or parents feel. Maybe some agree, and surely others don't. It's all good to me.

I'm anxious to hear your replies. Maybe you'll change my mind on some things. I enjoy & value good discussion.

I am also not in a role as a decision-maker in this, I'm just one coach at one school.

Here is this years Nebraska Schedule:
Thursday: Weigh-in Class A & D 8am
Class B & C 2:30pm
1st session
1st round - 10 mats A & D 9:30am
Qtrs - 10 mats A & D Follows 1st round
2nd session
1st round - 10 Mats B & C 4pm
Qtrs -10 mats B & C follows 1st round
Friday: Weigh-in Class A & D 8am
Class B & C 11am
3rd Session
1st rd Cons - 10 mats A & D 9:30am
2nd rd Cons - 10 mats A & D Follows 1st rd cons.
4th Session
1st rd Cons - 10 Mats B & C 12:30pm
2nd rd Cons - 10 Mats B & C Follows 1st rd cons.
5th Session
Semifinal and 3rd round Cons 8 mats 5pm
Saturday: Weigh-ins All Classes 8am
6th Session
Cons Semis 8 mats all classes 9:30am
3rd & 5th place matches all classes 8 mats
Finals all classes 4 Mats 3pm

John Ostrom

That will never work. If it's 1 venue, then everyone has same rules. Not fair, for one group to hold weight, while another gets to eat.
Imop, there are only 2 places that can hold ALL CLASSES, in one place and that is, Intrust Bank Arena, Wichita. Or, Sprint Center, Kansas City.
Now, look at PRICES, to pay each, to hold it.
That's why, Kansas goes, where we go.

It will NEVER happen.

For 5A/6A, Hartman is way cheaper, than Intrust, and they are WAY MORE LEINIANT THAN INTRUST, would ever be.

Too bad the Kansas Coliseum is out of the picture.. It would have fit all classes. The environment there was something like I haven't seen in years when it was 4,5, and 6A.

When we had state at Intrust in 2010 right after it opened it was AWESOME. However, the prices were outrageous, you are correct.

The Sprint Center would be nuts.

Should at least try to keep it in Kansas.

Maybe if it was at Bramlage at Kansas State University, that would help to get wrestling back in the DI ranks in Kansas!! Bramlage could easily handle the people just like Mizzou Arena does if it is done in the same format...such as 321A and 4A early and 5/6A later in the day and as the participants dwindle then it goes to all classes...I wrestled at State in Hays when I was in high school and I graduated from FHSU...I have alot of love for Hays but after coaching my son in the Missouri State Tournament, I have to agree with Travis on this one!! One venue...one tournament...shoot maybe Kansas and Missouri could end up having Grand State again!!

Just my $0.02!!

KSHSAA will not bring back Grand state. They are going to keep it separated like this because it is a money maker for them that way

Isn't the Sprint Center on the Missouri side?

Lets not confuse terms. "Grand State" is not having all classes of tournaments in one venue, but having the top two, three or four placers of each classification come together in a tournament. THAT would be great.

In regards to a single venue. . .I have seen a real downturn in the past 3, 4 years in how the tournament in Hays is run. Those in charge there just don't seem to care whether they do a good job or not; attitude is more "let's get this over with." I would be in favor of a central venue but there are no facilities IN Kansas that are big enough (floor space for mats, parking, seating, ancillary space for operations) to accommodate it. Alternate scheduling at a same site; Wed-Thu & Fri-Sat or some such, would need to be looked at.

This happened at 5A and 6A this year.

RULE #1 of running a State Tournament

Please do not roll up mats while place medal matches are still going on.

Take longer break if they were worried about the 45 minute limit in between matches.

Thank you and sorry. Other than that great work.

Sean McCarthy

Oh I am not confusing what Grand State is...I know what it is I was just saying it would be great to bring it back...in all states!!

Like I said if Kansas would run the tournament like Missouri does with 2 classes going in the morning and 2 classes in the afternoon for day 1 and 2 then all classes for the last day then there are plenty of venues that can hold the event.

Mizzou Arena has a capacity around 15k and Bramlage is around 13k...by no means is Mizzou Arena completely packed during the first couple days...there are more people there for the finals than the rest of the tournament!

Seating capacity is not the issue. Parking and floor space for mats is.

Expocentre is the only place that could hold it in Kansas i think. You can put down 8 mats and have close to enough parking.

From the standpoint of parking space and floor space I agree. Also,the Expo-Center has adequate attached space for weigh-in and check-in activities. Topeka is also located such that many could go home for the night which would lower the pressure for motel rooms in or close to Topeka. Also, there are communities of size within easy driving distance (Manhattan and Lawrence) for additional motel space.

A split schedule as used in Missouri might work in this venue.

The United wireless center in Dodge City would be able to handle mats and parking. The drawback is the location, it would be quite the drive for a good number of schools.

United Wireless would hold the mats, but not sure about seating. If I remember correctly they hold less that 6,000 people.

I agree with Mr.Mann 321A in Hays used to be an awesome and electric event. Used to be elbow to elbow seating for the finals, and was so loud you could here the crowd outside. Not close to that anymore. Not sure if it just lack of interest, or some just following on Track now or what the problem is. But it is disappointing. As Mr. Mann also stated the tournament does not seem to be run as smoothly as before. And appears to be annoying to the workers, and this year some of the table workers were pretty bad. (take their cell phones away so they pay attention to the match).

One venue would be cool, but honestly don't see it happening anytime soon. 3 venues for KSSHAA to milk close to $50 a person for 2 days at each is too inticing for them.

$50 a person for 3 days would be more enticing I would think. One building to rent rather than three..... seems like KSHSAA is leaving money on the table.
There are a ton of match's in 321a and 5a & 6a that would justify the extra day's expenses for me.

L. Geyer, you saw the issues in Hays that I saw. Whoever was on the clock Friday night on table 3 needed to be relieved, at least after the 4th or 5th screw up!

3-2-1A in Hays was a ROCKING packed place in the 80's and 90's when the old-school powers were the main players: esp. those years that Sainty, Oberlin, Hoxie, Sainty, Atwood,Noton (Leoti slipped in there too!) etc. were cranking out qualifiers and strong teams. Those towns showed up!

Remember the pre-final cheer when all of the cheerleaders fro the old NWKL schools ringed the floor and led the chant: "Up, Up, On Your Feet, North West Kansas Can't Be Beat!" At that time IT WAS NW Kansas vs. the State. Now, 3-2-1A is the rest of the State chasing Norton.

It is first and foremost a population thing. Most of the traditional NW Kansas powers are now small 2A or 1A schools. They simply do not have the numbers needed to field full or close to full teams. This reduces their number of qualifiers and therefore the number of fans attending. This also leads to those schools losing the grip on their wrestling tradition; it is no longer a living tradition but is becoming dusty, museum quality history.

My best reason for leaving the 3-2-1A in Hays was the amazing wrestling experience it gave the participants. Unfortunately that is no longer the case there. I think it is time for a change; if nothing else to send 3-2-1A to Dodge City and maybe a host that really wants to host it.

Another issue that would need to be addressed if we went to one venue. . . You know how big of a pain in the a** it is now getting wrestlers checked in, weighed in (esp at Hartman Arena) and fed at one-class sites? Can you imagine all 4 at ONE venue?

It would (should) require that whoever is in charge of the venue be a lot more user friendly than is now the case. Having adequate adjacent ancillary spaces available for check-in/weigh-in would be critical. . .(or not, I guess; Hartman makes kids stand outside in the cold waiting to weigh-in/check-in).

Kind of off-topic, but why can't satellite weigh-in/check-in locations be established for the Friday morning weigh-ins?

bottom line is this. it takes a lot of work to get everything set up and working to make this happen. kshsaa is not ever going to put work into wrestling. i would love to see it happen and do think it would make money. the grand state would make money but it takes work. thats the problem kshsaa is lazy and wont ever let it happen until that board is full of people who care about wrestling.

And that is the issue Bockman. "The Board" will NEVER be full of people who care about wrestling; that is not the purpose of "the Board." The Board is full of people who care about ALL student activities, period. Therefore, the focus on specific issues of specific activities gets diffused.

IMO,each sport/activity needs a standing advisory committee made up of people who DO care passionately about a specific sport or activity and who are actively involved in them. They would meet on a regular and scheduled basis, 3 to 4 times per year, with the KSHSAA executive in charge of the sport or activity. Issues such as why FHSU doesn't want to host the state tournament could be discussed and recommendations advanced for consideration. With the coming change in leadership of the KSHSAA there is an opportunity for some changes to be made.

At the time of the big broo-ha-ha over the descent plan the KSHSAA formed an advisory group and it met regularly for most of 2 years. Agree or disagree with the work that was done, the changes came from a group that was "in the field" and did not "toe the party line." The group even got into advising Mr. Bowden on areas not connected with weight loss. . .it was quietly disbanded, but I don't think it was Mr. Bowden who wanted it gone. It was exactly the kind of group that is needed to be formed and in place in order to advance some new ideas.

In my opinion, one venue so needs to happen in not only wrestling but most other KSHSAA sports also. My soapbox speech here: Think of the ridiculiousness of EVERY football state championship on the same day, at the same time, at 6 different locations, AND recently at the SAME time as the KSU-KU football game. This is embarrassing! Also, in my opinion for basketball. Play your first round games where you do now, then bring all semifinalist teams to Allen Field House. I'm a Kstate guy, but come on, what kid wouldn't want to play at that place.

As for wrestling - I also agree wholeheartely that Kansas needs one venue for it's 4 different state wrestling tournaments. I have been at the 4A tournament for several years, this year I was in Wichita on Friday and Hays on Saturday. First off, from a fan standpoint - Kansas had so many great kids to watch this year and KSHSAA forces a fan to pick only one venue. This is poor.
Secondly, the crowds were dismal at Hays and Wichita. I can't speak for Salina this year, but the past few years were even worse than that.
Thirdly, Bob Phillips and I ran some numbers with Rick Bowden several years ago and I honestly think KSHSAA loses money with 3 different sites. You could cut down on tons of expenses, the number of referees, hotel comp rooms, etc, etc, etc.

If enough people or coaches agree, where to have it becomes the only question. You would need a third day and a venue to lay down 8 mats. You do not need 10 mats. You would have to wrestle a different schedule as you do now. But, all of that is worth it. Like some of the people mentioned above, the Expo seems to be the most logical. No way Hays, Salina, or Hartman arena could handle it for sure. Get this done Coaches and Admin!

Agree, with what you're saying.
But the only venue that could hold this kind of event is, Intrust arena, Wichita, or, Sprint Center, in KC MO.
So to keep it in Kansas, Intrust arena, is the most, central location, with the most hotels, available for what you are looking at. Topeka is highly limited.

Someone needs to get with Intrust, on their charge for using their venue, for our state athletes.
My 2 Cents.

Not even enough parking at or around Intrust; it was a mess the one year 6A was there.

Ive been to the Indiana state tournament the last 5 years. Indiana is fortunate to have a great facility, which is "Bankers Life Arena" or where the Pacers play. Holds 19k. Also logistically they are much better off as its in Indy which is almost exactly in the middle of the state, its in a major metro city with plenty of hotels, restaurants and parking.

Also unique to Indiana is they have one class and the tournament starts on Friday night and finals are Saturday night.

But its a party and good time. The whole wrestling community from the state shows up, and the kids get recognized. They do a parade of champions on Friday night and announce every school. Its weird as they have a school with over 5000 students and a school with under 200 students that qualified a wrestler. They stand next to each other the same. Its just a great atmosphere watching the final on Saturday night. They turn the lights out and I they had around 15K in attendance. Its professionally done is on Fox sports TV and the winner of each weight gets interviewed after the match like the pros. The atmosphere is electric and I would say if the kid makes the finals, he's most likely will be wrestling D1.

I know its logistically difficult in Kansas to put a state tournament together in one spot. But the tournament should be a gathering of the whole community. Kansas doesn't know what they're missing out on I know people don't like change, but if it happened, people would enjoy it so much more.

I know discussed, but tweak the format to make it happen. Go to 8 man brackets or switch to 3 classes. I think you could make it happen that way.

I think Bramlage would be the best place. Central location with large enough stadium and parking to host it. 40 hotels in the city should be able to handle the capacity. Junction city could also help. I don't know, but what city wouldn't want 800 wrestlers and there families to come to spend a lot of cash in their city. Its easy money. That's what I don't get, Cities not wanting the stimulus.

so the question is. would it cost more to rent 3 sites for 2 days or would it cost more to rent intrust arena for 3 days. i dont know what the cost of 3 sites is but i cant imagine it would be less than 3 days at intrust. the parking becomes the problem at intrust during the daytime.

Would it be cheaper to rent on facility or three.

There is no way you could do it at Intrust. Not enough parking. It would be a mess.

As a former Kansas wrestler now experiencing South Dakota's State tournament as a fan/future coach, the Kansas state tournament set up needs to change.

South Dakota still mainly uses AAU for their youth wrestling tournaments and clubs compared to USA Wrestling. Yet, SD is able to figure out a way to move both state tournaments to the same venue AND within the next year or two add in a state dual tournament.

I understand logistics behind moving all state tournaments into one venue are complex and difficult, but it needs to happen! Too many great wrestling matches are being missed by passionate fans, coaches, and wrestlers. Kansas needs to make this happen and help the sport thrive in the state!

um you are talking about a state that is about to split their kids tournament too....never gonna happen, we do what we want here in Kansas

I would like to see all classes under one roof as well, but in the mean time, get 321a and 4a in the same venue. Doubling the excitement wouldn't be a bad thing!

um no. move 4a back to wichita with 5 and 6a.

Parking at Intrust, not a nightmare. Yeah gotta pay $5-$10 to park or park at Lawerence dumont and take a shuttle. It is what it is. But it's the only Venue to hold, imop 4,5,6A. Not big enough to hold all. And let's be real, the stands aren't packed until Finals day, so it's only 1 day that would be tough.

You need to remember, much of that paid parking around Intrust is taken with downtown workers on weekdays. They can't even provide enough parking for the two upper classes alone, as others on here have attested. Trying to add 4A would be a disaster, which I know both Intrust and KSHSAA executives already know.

i think Hartman could add 4a back. if you take the wrestlers out of the stands and let them set up sitting areas up on the top row behind the seating. they also have other rooms where wrestlers could set up camp. Im not trying to talk about other sports but if you have been to a volleyball tournament its exactly like that. teams set up an area for the kids to rest with food and all that. obviously they would not let you bring food in cause thats like jail time at Hartman. I know the Newton tournament is set up like that. i do realize it would be more people but with a little work it could be done. The stands werent exactly packed with just 5 and 6a. Even the finals was not packed. Yes it would have its challenges but i think it could be done. Im not sure how much money that would save but im thinking it would save quite a bit. Then that money could be used in getting a grand state started because its just the right thing to do for the sport.

The problem with Hartman is seating compacity. For those around in the Coliseum days, they will remember that for finals, all seating was full. The Coliseum had a compacity of 10k plus. Hartman has about half that amount.