Ducking competition

With people obviously forfeiting to position themselves for state here is the question. What would happen if both wrestlers were to forfeit a regional match.

With the draws at each weight being random and unknown, I guess I'm not sure how forfeiting would position someone for state!

You can easily assume who will win your regional and position yourself in 4th place to avoid that wrestler at state.

In 5A and 6A with there only being 2 regionals it's not hard to figure out who your going to wrestle at state.

I don't know if any of the forfeits at regionals had to do with that or just tough wrestling and a kid is a little banged up and the coach doesn't want them to get hurt anymore.

I agree, but it's a good question nonetheless. Let's just say hypothetically; what would happen if both wrestlers going for 3rd inj out/forfeited? How would they be seated at state?

The way I understand it is, the Ark City regional was 1-2 hours behind the other region. Now common sense and smartphones say that even an idiot can figure where to position themselves

It is what it is! Luke was giving up 30 pounds to the young man who won state last year. If I had it to do over again I would have had Luke default to forth so we could have him in the semifinals. Luke would have won easy. No matter the rules people are going to try to take advantage. Life!!

Good Luck to everyone this week!

Tom

To me it's just as cowardly as laying down to win a match off an illegal move when you're not injured.

Easy fix would be to have 4 regionals for 5a and 6a. Each regional would have 8 teams and take top 4 finishers. Run 8 man scramble brackets. Then blind draw the state seeds like 321-A does. Regional 3 vs regional 2 and regional 1 vs regional 4 for a 16 man bracket at state.

Because I fully agree that it is currently very easy to figure out in 5a and 6a where everyone will land on the bracket.

The original question remains unanswered. How will the 2 wrestlers that inj defaulted/forfeited their 3rd place match be seated at state? Anyone have any idea? Thanks!!

My guess is a coin flip!

J. Dale, I hear what you are saying and respect it. I realize our situation last year is not the same as this year, however manipulating the system and getting a doctors note to cut that much weight is a problem also. Solution is same day weigh in.

Jeff, I assume your question is rhetorical unless I’m missing something. 4th!!

Tom it’s not a rhetorical question but don’t have anyone in mind either. Just one of those questions that made me ponder especially now that 5a & 6a have only 2 regionals and it makes it easier to manupliate state seedings. Coin flip makes the most sense I guess as you can’t have 2 4th.

Would think there has to be (or soon will be) a kashaa rule for this scenario.

Take care.

Right is right and wrong is wrong. It also has to do with integrity. Get better, work harder and kick your opponents ass on the mat. Dodging competition in any way is cowardly and winning a match by layng down on illegal move is even worse.

Do we have any evidence this actually occurred? Or is this another "sky is falling" thread?

Luckily it worked out but here is a terribly real scenario that happened at an NAIA qualifier last week. Top 2 from a weight qualify for 149...kid drew a pigtail, won a couple, lost and got thrown on the back...ran the table including 3rd place match. Didn't wrestle the runner up and should have been able to challenge for the automatic qualifying position in a true 2nd...but, he hit 6 match limit. Kid wound up wildcarded in, but there are some crazy situations happening out there.

6a 113

which quadrant.... 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th. That way you don't name a kid...but we can do deductive thought process on it.

Look it up just 2 regionals

The Washburn Rural coaching staff had a long conversation about this on Friday night of regionals. There are certainly some spots where it would have been better in the long-term to injury default the medal matches, and to be honest, I was torn about which way to go. Ultimately, we decided that we drove all the way to Garden City to wrestle, not to duck anyone, so we sent our guys out there to compete.

Damon, please help me understand how/why that conversation even has to happen.

It's was the first time (and the last) that we will ever have that conversation. But ultimately, if a lot of other teams are doing it, and it provides them an advantage at the state tournament, as a coach it would be foolish to not at least discuss the option. Until there's a better system in place teams are going to continue to do it. It doesn't align with our values, but I can certainly see why people do it.

It happens in every sport at every level. If your goal is to take the toughest route, I hope it works out well for you. If your goal is to get the highest possible finish at state for yourself, your wrestler or your team, I can respect that also. It makes no difference to me, each person has there own goals and it is not my place to criticize them.

Damon, honest reply, thanks!

This isn’t just limited to 3rd & 4th, I would suggest this scenerio
exist for all placement including 1st and 2nd going into state!
And far from the sky is falling!

The original question still remains unanswered. What happens to the wrestlers at state?

As far as I can tell, we've had ONE example where this MIGHT have happened. If that is correct, then I hardly call it a problem. And if we're going to make these kind of accusations, then I see nothing wrong with naming the individual or individuals.

I know of at least 3 examples. And in one case, I know the coach and he said they forfeited to get a better spot in the bracket. So yes it is happening as a strategy

Then you certainly should be able to name names.

I’m not calling out the kids or coaches. Just look at the brackets. It’s not hard to figure out

Even having the discussion calls integrity into question.

2 kids that used this strategy made the state finals tonight

And sometimes integrity and character doesn't have to be questioned. Sometimes you just sit back and wait and the question is answered on it's own.

Mr. Dale,

I know you are not familiar with our program, and that’s ok. I also know that everyone is entitled to their own opinions on religion, politics, and injury defaults, and that’s ok. But calling into question the integrity of our staff, kids, or program on a public forum is most certainly not ok.

I do not know if you were present at the 6A state tournament or not. Even if you were, you may have missed the blood round match at 120 pounds. But if you feel the need to call the integrity of our program into question, please consider the team race at that time, the opponent in the match (who is an absolute stud in his own right), the options available and the choices that were made by our coaching staff (and most importantly, the wrestler involved). The integrity of our program is paramount; it is more important to us than any medal or trophy.

If you have any questions please feel free to contact me directly.

Look at the time my comment was posted. It was before the blood round of state. That comment was about the discussion of injury defaulting. If you'd like to discuss my comments in private send me a message and I'll be happy to call.

I can not believe that we are talking about an INJURY DEFAULT as a strategy! If you did this then SHAME ON YOU! An injury default or medical forfeit should only be used for exactly what it was intended for AN INJURY. I was all for the 2 regional system because the state bracket would be "seeded" by how well the wrestlers preformed at the regional tournament and the 2 best wrestlers have the opportunity to be on opposite sides. If you don't preform up to par at regionals that is your fault. To then have a high school student LIE because they did not do their job is absolutely WRONG! If this is occurring then again SHAME ON YOU, you are ruining the best system we have to have the athletes decide what side of the bracket they will be on.

AN INJURY DEFAULT IS NOT A STRATEGY!!!

Coach Buck,
I agree 99.9%. The part I don't agree with is this, 1- the kid doesn't lie on his own. Either a parent or coach tells him to. This is why integrity gets questioned. 2- theoretically the 2 best should be on the opposite side but of the 28 6A finalist came from the Garden City regional and 21 of the 28 in 5A came from Ark City you sometimes 3 of the top 4 on the same side. I saw a couple of weights that the top 4 were from 1 region.

Well Mr. J. Dale 1st off get rid of Ren and Stimpy please, it hurts my eyes! 2nd, I said "have a high school student lie" and I assumed others would know that their coach or parent is having them lie. 3rd, you lost me on your 2nd. 1st and 2nd of a regional are on the opposite sides of the bracket as are the 2 regional champions. So hopefully now you can agree 100%

Come on coach. Ren and Stempy will never leave. Read some of the post and rethink "I assumed others would know" as some aren't smart enough. I'm at 99.999%.

By the way. On my second point it's like this. If i'm in for 3/4 or 5/6 or 7/8 at regionals and think " I'm in a loaded region and want to wrestle my regional champ in the finals instead of semi's then Ill just default and take my chances at the champ from the other region" that's my point. So the original question is still- What happens if BOTH wrestlers decide to do this at regionals?

When I was in HS in OK we had 2 regions for each class. I was 3rd my SR year at Regionals, but I opted to take the 4th seeds place at the State Tournament and wrestle the 1st place guy from the West Region. Not sure if this is an option in KS or not, but it negates the default situation in some cases.

Solution. If you default your medal match at regionals then you automatically default first match at state. Problem solved

I have no problem with the strategy. Sometimes the best 2 kids are on the same side at regionals. Especially with how ridiculous the regions are separated. For example, Saunders of Wichita West had to wrestle Lindsey of Derby in the regional semis and lost 5-1. Then Lindsey techs his finals opponent. If Saunders forfeited for 4th place he could wrestle the kid he beat in the state finals in the semis instead of Lindsey. I think everyone agrees Saunders vs Lindsey should have been the finals. And team titles could be decided by getting a kid into the finals thanks to being on the opposite side of the bracket.

STATE SEEDING! Base it on criteria of course. Win/loss record would have to have a strength of opponent factor to it. No seeding meeting required. 90 mile radius of Wichita was strong in 5A and 6A, this area provided a lot of the top finishing wrestlers. I would think the seeding would give you a better spread across the bracket. Just a thought, there is never a perfect plan to make everyone happy and keep everything totally even.

THIS!!!!

That would be the absolute best solution. Seed every bracket plus have 1 wrestler in each quarter by random draw be tested for PED as we all know that there are people using hgh/steroids. Do it this way and our sport would be in much better shape as a whole. LOL I said A whole.

Am I missing another simple solution? 1st and 2nd at both regionals are on opposite sides of the bracket, but do "blind" draws into the rest of the bracket like the old 4 regional set up? Now, if you pull a default at any point, you're relying on luck of the draw to get placed on the easier side of the bracket. I understand that it doesn't solve that Saunders somehow ended up wrestling Lyndsey in the regionals semis, but that just sounds like some tough (or completely wrong) regionals seeding. It certainly beats going back to having four regional tournaments, with one having 4-6 of the best kids, per weight, in a lot of the same regional weights. And how in the world do you plan to seed a state tournament, when it took over four hours to seed a regional????? Maybe you look at the Pennsylvania model. Will still make it tough on freshman, but if the best wrestling state does it we can try it.

By the way, Jerry, Ren and Stimpy are still up there with the Monster Truck avatar. Classic....

Great idea Ryan. And thank you about Ren and Stempy.

There's been some interesting post on this and a few really good ideas on solving the problem. BUT, the original question still isn't answered. What happens if both wrestlers forfeit the same match at regionals? Is it a race to the table, or coun toss?

I would think since we don't wrestle a true 2nd place at regionals that maybe put the 2nd and 3rd place finishers from the same regional on the same side of the bracket instead of 1st and 3rd. This would also eliminate the possibility of bracket positioning in the 3rd or 4th place match but you could run into the possibility of bracket positioning for the 5th and 6th place match.

1 A vs 8 B
4 B vs 5 A
3 B vs 6 A
2 B vs 7 A

1 B vs 8 A
4 A vs 5 B
3 A vs 6 B
2 A vs 7 B