Kansas Wrestling
High School Coaches
Posted By: thorgan
High School Coaches - 05/08/14 06:46 PM
Got this from our AD today, forwarded from Mr. Lentz. Be careful.
It has come to the attention of the KSHSAA that several member-school wrestling
coaches were coaching their athletes at the Greco Roman Wrestling Tournament and
school transportation was used to transport wrestlers to the competition on the
first weekend in May. Please let me remind you of the KSHSAA Board Approved
Handbook Rule 30:
>
> Rule 30 – Section I – Art. 3:
> · During the school year a coach/coach’s aide may only be involved with his/her
athletes in a sport during the season.
> · During the school year, prior to or after season, a coach/coach’s aide may not:
> 1. Organize or conduct practices or competition for his/her athletes. However, a
coach may be involved in one organizational meeting for a non-school league to
assure compliance with the rule.
> 2. Practice or compete with or against his/her athletes;
> 3. Attend clinics or camps with his/her athletes.
Posted By: budkes
Re: High School Coaches - 05/08/14 07:28 PM
Here is a question to anyone who knows the answer....
Does KSHSAA classify all styles of wrestling as 1 sport or can Greco/Freestyle be classified as different sports?
It seems to me that they could be classified as different sports because KSHSAA doesn't have any kind of events, sponsorship or anything else to do with freestyle and greco. It seems to me that their rules should only apply to the sport that they sponsor or control and that is folkstyle wrestling.
Shawn Budke
Posted By: luellen
Re: High School Coaches - 05/08/14 09:14 PM
Can any one explain why KSHSAA has this rule? It seems to weaken Kansas wrestling.
If enough member schools could sponsor to change this rule it could be changed. But it would have to be driven by the athletic directors and principals of all of the KSHSAA member schools.
Posted By: Cokeley
Re: High School Coaches - 05/09/14 03:02 AM
There are roughly 225 head wrestling coaches in KS. Do you think there are 115 coaches and AD's that would be willing to support this change?
KSHSAA seeks mediocrity. They quash excellence. It is a by product of the "everyone must be a winner" "no child left behind" philosophy instilled in many of today's educators and administrators.
Posted By: budkes
Re: High School Coaches - 05/09/14 11:32 AM
We know what we need to do to change it. I am still curious as to how they can classify freestyle/greco in their rules when you could make the argument that it is a different sport than the one they regulate...folkstyle wrestling.
All the lawyers out there....do we have a legitimate question or am I splitting hairs?
Just wondering.
Shawn Budke
Posted By: Mike Juby
Re: High School Coaches - 05/09/14 01:13 PM
Shawn,
Some other state associations have recognized that these are different sports and allow high school folkstyle coaches to work with their athletes in freestyle and Greco-Roman. KSHSAA has taken the position that these are the same sport. I believe that this is incorrect, but nothing short of a lawsuit would likely result in a change.
Posted By: M.Church_AD
Re: High School Coaches - 05/09/14 01:40 PM
Well, maybe it's time for a committee/organization to be put in place & put together a petition and possible lawsuit on the grounds that KSHSAA does not offer Freestyle and Greco Roman Wrestling therefore have no right in telling high school coaches they can't coach it. They would not stop me or any other high school wrestling coach from coaching an AAU rugby team, so why can't we coach a totally different sport of our choice.
Posted By: M.Church_AD
Re: High School Coaches - 05/09/14 01:44 PM
Comparing Folkstyle, Freestyle and Greco-Roman Wrestling to each other is the same as comparing Tennis, Badmitton and racket ball. They all use rackets but are still totally different.
KSHSAA just helps to enforce the rules of its members (the schools), if coaches and administrators ban together for the change it will happen, but if we do not have enough member schools to agree to the change it will not. The promotion needs to be done with those that make the decision. I would say a strong league gets a few of its administrators to bring it to a vote for KSHSAA executive meeting, then promote it across all member schools and let your administrators know as well as the board by flooding them with emails from several coaches (more than just the KWCA members) to know that we are passionate about this rule. It could potentially hurt a kid from going to college and furthering their education as they do not have any opportunity outside of a dedicated coach to continue wrestling to get more opportunity and recognition.
If someone has an email for the people on pages 7-11 of this document it would help:
http://www.kshsaa.org/Publications/Handbook.pdfOur tax dollars also help to pay these salaries. The voice needs to be heard from the wrestling community, as well, not just the coaches. Social media and promotion helped to keep wrestling in the olympics. The same can happen to promote positive change within our ogranizations. Letting administrators know what the community wants to make our sport better and to promote wrestling. And that freestyle and greco are not folkstyle.
Posted By: GT Williams
Re: High School Coaches - 05/11/14 03:56 PM
A couple people have asked me to respond to these posts, because I am an attorney. I have been actively involved in KSHSAA activities (and Missouri, too-MSHSAA) for 10 or 15 years, and hear the same comments and criticism on an annual basis. These are my comments:
1. KSHSAA is a not-for-profit corporation founded under the authority of the KS Legislature. Its members are the high schools and Jr. highs in the state, and membership is voluntary.
(Because it is the only game in town, it essentially is a monopoly, and thus if you do not like its rules you have to go to another state).
2. It has something like 75 Board of Directors, who are educators, athletic directors, coaches, etc., according to the KSHSAA website. These directors are elected by the member schools. KSHAA is a democracy.
3. Because it is a democracy, the majority rules. If the majority wants a rule changed, they can vote it in.
4. My experience has been the majority of the members do not want the rules changed, for various reasons.
I have been told:
"If coaches are allowed to coach their athletes during the school year, we will be expected to coach them without an increase in pay, and we do not want that".
"If you eliminate the club participation rules, the 500 mile limitation, add games to various sports, or the other rules most of us object to, it will provide an unfair advantage to those who can afford these luxuries".
Etc., etc.
So what I am trying to say is my observation is that most schools in KS do not want these rules changed, they want them exactly the way they are, and this is done with clear intent.
Hope this helps.
Tom Williams
Posted By: doug747
Re: High School Coaches - 05/12/14 02:21 PM
And if you happen to be the person "turning in" these HS coaches that are trying to help the sport, their wrestlers, and their team, you are a prick.........
I agree that these are different sports, and KSHSAA's rule does not apply.
I am a huge football supporter, but why can football coaches see their kids everyday in the weightroom (and I'm sure never talk a word about football), and coach them at camps and such? Same with the B word, and baseball and softball. For whatever reason, wrestling is treated differently. The sport that takes the most amount of commitment, has its most committed people handcuffed........
And I would be happy to help defend a coach that gets challenged by KSHSAA on it. I have a great amount of respect for HS coaches that help out with kids' programs and FS Greco.
And I have a great amount of ill will towards those that try to tear these types of coaches down......
Posted By: M.Church_AD
Re: High School Coaches - 05/12/14 02:25 PM
LOL - Awesome
Posted By: budkes
Re: High School Coaches - 05/12/14 07:32 PM
Hey folks here is a different approach to changing KSHSAA's thinking.....
Facts:
1. KSHSAA is slow to change and it would be a tough task to get a majority of coaches, ads, etc on board with changing the rule.
Given that, why don't we as a population then demand that KSHSAA provide freestyle and greco opportunities to our kids. My thought process is that if they are going to include those styles undering their wrestling umbrella then they are deficient in providing opportunities for our kids to compete in those styles.
We could make a proposal to have a spring season that starts the same time as all of the other sports. It would have high school freestyle and greco duals and tournaments (or maybe just tournaments). It would conclude with an all class state freestyle tournament and an all class state greco tournament. The schools would have to provide normal coaching stipends just like they do for all spring sports.
I think there is an argument to be made that our kids are being discriminated against because KSHSAA is not providing opportunities to compete in something that they are regulating.
OR
We can offer this up and give them the option to lift the no contact rule (at least for the spring) and tell them there is a club system in place to cover this. It would cost the school districts no additional money. Just let the coaches that want to help with the clubs coach their kids.
What do you all think?
Shawn Budke
Posted By: MSvikings
Re: High School Coaches - 05/13/14 01:35 PM
I like the idea of giving KSHSAA two choices. I work for a government body. When you are trying to get change it seems to go faster when you give the opposing power two options.
Josh Parker
Posted By: budkes
Re: High School Coaches - 05/14/14 11:35 AM
I have talked with a number of folks about this....high school coaches, school athletic directors, etc. None of them seemed negative to the idea of providing 2 options. I also didn't get any pushback on the idea that these are really 3 different sports.
A couple of the folks I talked to recommended that a way to start the process is to get KWCA involved and have them champion the idea based on the process they use to take recommendations to KSHSAA. Bob Gonzales....what do you think?
Shawn Budke
Posted By: luellen
Re: High School Coaches - 05/17/14 10:49 PM
A couple people have asked me to respond to these posts, because I am an attorney. I have been actively involved in KSHSAA activities (and Missouri, too-MSHSAA) for 10 or 15 years, and hear the same comments and criticism on an annual basis. These are my comments:
1. KSHSAA is a not-for-profit corporation founded under the authority of the KS Legislature. Its members are the high schools and Jr. highs in the state, and membership is voluntary.
(Because it is the only game in town, it essentially is a monopoly, and thus if you do not like its rules you have to go to another state).
2. It has something like 75 Board of Directors, who are educators, athletic directors, coaches, etc., according to the KSHSAA website. These directors are elected by the member schools. KSHAA is a democracy.
IF ITS A DEMOCROCY THEN THEY WOULD LISTEN TO THE WRESTLERS COACHES & PARENTS THAT MAKE UP KANSAS WRESTLING.
3. Because it is a democracy, the majority rules. If the majority wants a rule changed, they can vote it in.
I HAVE NOT SPOKE TO ONE PERSON INVOLVED IN KANSAS WRESTLING THAT AGREES WITH THIS RULE MY SONS HAVE BEEN WRESTLING IN KANSAS FOR 10 YEARS. I HAVE MET ALOT OF KANSAS WRESTLING COACHES & PARENTS & WRESTLERS OVER THE YEARS. YOUR POINT #3 IS CONFUSING & I BELIEVE INCORRECT.
4. My experience has been the majority of the members do not want the rules changed, for various reasons.
I have been told:
"If coaches are allowed to coach their athletes during the school year, we will be expected to coach them without an increase in pay, and we do not want that".
THE MAJORITY OF COACHES THAT THIS RULE HANDCUFFS DONT WANT EXTRA PAY THEY JUST WANT TO HELP KANSAS WRESTLERS GET BETTER, WHY WOULD KSHSAA HANDCUFF THEM?
"If you eliminate the club participation rules, the 500 mile limitation, add games to various sports, or the other rules most of us object to, it will provide an unfair advantage to those who can afford these luxuries".
Etc., etc.
THIS IS A LAWYERS WAY OF SAYING WE DONT WANT TO LET DEDICATED KANSAS WRESTLERS THAT WRESTLE IN SUMMER GET ANY BETTER THAN WRESTLERS THAT JUST WANT TO WRESTLE FOLKSTYLE SEASON ONLY. KSHSAA WANTS TO MAKE IT HARD & DISCOURAGE THE MOST DEDICATED WRESTLERS & COACHES. THE REASON IS TO MAKE ALL KANSAS WRESTLERS A 5 OR BELOW ON A 1-10 SCALE. ITS NOT ABOUT AFFORD ITS ABOUT DISCOURAGING KANSAS WRESTLERS & COACHES THAT LOVE THE SPORT. THE VERY COACHES KSHSAA IS HANDCUFFING ARE THE ONES THAT WOULD & DO HELP WRESTLERS THAT CANT AFFORD CERTIAN THINGS.
So what I am trying to say is my observation is that most schools in KS do not want these rules changed, they want them exactly the way they are, and this is done with clear intent.
THIS STATMENT FLYS IN THE FACE OF EVERY COACH & WRESTLER I HAVE SPOKE TO IN THE LAST 10 YEARS. MY SONS & I HAVE BEEN TO TOURNAMENTS FROM ONE SIDE OF THIS STATE TO THE OTHER. PLEASE DONT PEE ON MY HEAD & TELL ME ITS RAINING.
Hope this helps.
Tom Williams
THANKS FOR THE POST IT WAS HELPFUL
Michael Luellen 785-230-3877