Interesting stat handing out on the media table in St. Louis:

All-Americans by state:
Pennsylvania=12
Michigan=8
Ohio=5
New Jersey=5
California=4
Iowa=4
Illinois=4
Oklahoma=4
New York=4
Wisconsin=4
Kansas=3
Minnesota=3
Virginia=3
Missouri=2
Arizona=2
Indiana=2
South Dakota=2
Idaho=2
New Hampshire=1
Tennessee=1
Hawaii=1
Georgia=1
Florida=1
Colorado=1
Maryland=1

*This is based on information provided by the wrestlers and may not reflect the state in which they did their scholastic wrestling.

This reaffirms that Pennsylvania is definitely the biggest hotbed wrestling state in the U.S. and has been for a very long time. I think PA also by far has the most college programs (I think they have about 15+ or so DIVISION I programs alone). And at Fargo and National Duals each year, they are always at the top of the list.

Just thought this might be interesting info...

Kit,

Curious as to what the percentage is based on # of qualifiers to number of All Americans for each state.

That would be an interesting stat, too many numbers for me to figure up....but I would think Hawaii would be winning with 100%, but Kansas was three for seven I think, not too bad.

The NCAA Div. I nationals next year goes to Oklahoma City's Ford Center, then I think to somewhere up north, maybe Detroit. The 2008-2011 sites were up for bid and the finalists were announced: Omaha, Philadelphia, St. Louis, Des Moines (new arena going up), and I forget the last one, I think it was up north.

I'd be very curious to see how the Kansas guys would have scored as a team...Has anyone by chance done that?

True for everything said, but I would not make a blanket statement that PA is "the hotbed", consider this. They are basically the most populous (4th in the country) hotbead, so they should have a lot of AAs. States like KS, OK and IA are hot hotbeads with very small pops. Also, the hotbededness you speak of applies only to one thing, that is state were said DI AAs went to HS and not overall when considering college, developement, etc. Yes, they also have however many college programs, but what level are they competing at. Only once in history I believe has a team from PA won the DI title. Also those kids started in PA but obviously the bulk of them were developed at the college where they went. Until colleges from PA start winning NCAA titles, the kings, the hotbeds, are still OK and IA. PA scores well at Fargo but that is because they enter ~10 kids at every weight because of their extremely large state pop., like CA. Same thing applies for the HS Nationals. What would the results look like if each team could only enter 1 at every weight? The National duals is another way to measure where they can only score off of 1 at every weight. I cannot ever remember PA winning the National duals. When it comes to the best team with 1 man at a weight, OK is still king as they have won the National duals like 8 out of the last 10 years. Just some thoughts. My point is, I will certainly not bow to PA as the almighty "hotbead" of wrestling, but that is just me.

My wife worked out in PA for a little while and everyone she worked with or met wrestled, had sons that wrestled, brothers that wrestled, fathers and grand fathers that wrestled, wrestlers are treated like gods up there. When I went up to see her a few times that's all you see in the papers and people talking about.

The people who are in wrestling know whats going on here in Kansas, we just unfortunately have to many ignorant people playing with balls around here.

Coach Peterman

Show some respect for those kids who play basketball. I mean seriously what have they ever done to us?

Stole money, school support, media attention, etc. from Wrestling, need I go on?

If you want the best high school wrestling in the country, it doesn't get much better than Pennsylvania. The Pennsylvania state tournament probably is the toughest (maybe the exception of California with one class). The first place college recruiters go to are Pennsylvania and then Ohio. Oklahoma and are Iowa are definitely not what I would call recruiting hot beds.

Oklahmoma may do well in the "freestyle national duals", but of course they are hosted in Oklahoma so those guys don't have to travel. I know the event has average attendance from eastern states.

Speaking of National Duals, check out the NWCA duals which is collegiant style, Team Diesel from Pennsylania has won that the last three years.

Look at this statistic, NCAA qualifiers by state Pennsylvania 59, Ohio 35, Iowa 12, Kansas 7, Oklahoma 6. (Interesting Oklahoma has more population than KS if you want to talk population)

Look at last year Fargo Jr National All-Americans Pennsylvania-16, Oklahoma-6.

I still think one of the better measures is Senior Nationals since it takes the best Wrestlers in the country and they wrestle collegiant style. Ohio has dominated this event winning, 4 out last 5. They took second this year. Oklahoma struggles to get in the top 10, what did they take 17th. Kansas also has routinely done better at this event than Oklahoma.

Anybody can talk, but show me some facts to support your opinion. The truth is, Oklahoma wrestling, if at all, is marginally better than Kansas wrestling. Iowa might be a step above these two.

This is mostly a subjective debate that has too many variables to make anything other than educated guesses. That being said, generally I have to agree with what the esteemed (self-proclaimed) wrestling scholar. His opinion as to the National powerhouses follows very close to what mine do. Pennsylvania and then Ohio, year-end-year-out, are the hotbeds!

I narrowed it down to this part of the topic. I think more than population the thing that is interesting is OU has 2 DI programs and yet only 7 out of possible 20 varsity postions that qualified are Oklahoma guys.

Aaron,

I looked it up and only counted four wrestlers from Oklahoma that wrestled for OU and OSU that qualified for Nationals. Am I missing somebody.

Ware
Flaggert
Hager
Hendricks


The Scholar

Iowa's 165 lb guy and Pitt maybe?

Well stated, but consider these things.
Yes, Oklahoma was low this year at the HS nationals but look back at the last 10-20 years. I would be interested to see the results. I am sure that a somewhat different perspective would result. The "duals in Oklahoma thing" to me is a copout. Ohio, New Jersey, IA, etc. always go as does CA. Many years, it is OK and OH in the finals and we already know who has won the most of those. Look at the results from Fargo which is not close and you will see that Oklahoma always places in the top ten in freestyle. PA should place more at Fargo because of the population as should CA and others. Rememeber you can enter more than one at a weight. Kansas results are very impressive and is probably the most improved state overall especially when you consider the population. But they also have the forth largest kids enrollment which is an impressive stat in itself. Kansas is quickly becoming a "hotbed". Forget Iowa. Saying that Oklahoma is not a "hotbed" is ludicrous and almost asinine. Out of ten DI weights, two champions hail form OK high schools. That's pretty dang good numbers and hard to avoid if you are recruiting. PA, OH, etc. may produce more
AA but at the highest level OK competes with everyone. Good recruiters know that all they have to do is go down to OK and start turning stones and eventually a scorpion will crawl out. Once again, who has produced the most National and Olympic champs across the long haul, give me some stats on that. Don't tell me when you have got guys like John Smith, Kenny Monday, Kendall Cross, etc. representing you that you will not be noticed.

Heck, they hail from the same town: Edmond

Teyon Ware: Edmond North
Johnny Hendricks: Edmond Memorial

Speaking of the Edmond "Hotbed", Swayz. How about UCO and the history there?

My comment on the Freestyle National duals in Oklahoma was that it was not well attended by the wrestlers, not that it wasn't attended by the states Teams. To clarify a lot of the top wrestlers from the big power house states like PA, OH, NJ, NY and VA did not join the Freestyle National dual team partly due to the geography of the event and the fact that it was freestyle. Sometimes these teams have the fourth or fifth best guy from the state, not their top wrestlers.

This results in Oklahoma's best wrestlers are wrestling the PA, OH, NJ's 5th string or maybe lower in many cases.

Have to note that OK tied for first place at the Duals with Ohio last year.

Other point, SR National tournament only scores 1 wrestler per state just like the duals. So just like Senior Duals, the team score is top wrestler vs top wrestler. I'll give you that a lot of wrestlers from Oklahoma don't attend because it's in Cleveland which I hope explains their dismal 17th place finish.

Also, Junior Nationals in Fargo only allows 4 wrestlers from each state per weight class. PA gets four just like Oklahoma and I bet Oklahoma comes close to filling out team. So you can't say PA sends tons of more wrestlers to JR Nationals.

I'll give OK credit for putting out a couple of top notch National wrestlers every year. (Ware & Hendricks are impressive). Not many states could compete with OK's all time-top ten list if their was such a thing (Smith, Monday, Smith, etc). Edmond HS must have also been bad *** a few years ago.

But the depth at Oklahoma doesn't even come close to PA, OH, NY. I'll goes as far and say a lot of state placers in Oklahoma would not even qualify for PA, NY & OH state tournaments.

All that I can say is WOW! I cannot believe what I just read.
For a Wrestling Scholar to make those statements is, well, WOW.

To say that Oklahoma is wrestling against other states 4th and 5th because of Geography is CRAZY. You obviously do not understand the importance of the duals. If Geography was a factor, nobody any good would be going anywhere, like Reno, Vegas, Pittsburg, Tulsa, Cleveland, Fargo, etc. Let me help you.
In 1999 Oklahoma tied Ohio 24 to 24 and won the Duals on criteria. Check out Ohio's lineup.
Kendjorsky
Ott
Lenhart
Jayne
Ratliff
Forward
Bertin
Lange
Heiber
Lammers
Rowlands
Taylor
Almost every one of these wrestlers is a DI All-American. That same year, New Jersey was third with a team that included.
Norgaard
Dowd
Black
Baches
Hahn
Sharpov
Mocco
Not exactly 4th or 5th place tier guys, huh.
In the years that I coached on the KS teams, I can remember teams with the following;
PA - Patacky, Scott, Galloway, Morgan, Eckloff,
Hart, Burkholder
MI - Simmons, Frost, Donahue, Churella, Kish, Metcalf
Others from OH - Jaggers, both Schlatters, both Bergmans, Moos, Hart
Not exactly 4th or 5th Tier, huh. There are many others, but I cannot remember all of them.

Oklahoma did place 17th this year at Sr. Nationals and yes that is dismal but a very uncharacteristic dismal. They are almost always in the top ten. They take Junior Nationals in Fargo more series because it is freestyle and they are preparing their guys for not just college but even higher goals of international wrestling and Olympic competition. They always place in the top ten there and usually closer to top five. They won the thing in 1998. This is one reason why Oklahoma has produced so many Olympians. All of this greatness with a very small population base.
No one takes wrestling more series than Oklahoma.

You did state that not many states could compete with Oklahoma's all-time top ten at least but let me help you with that also.
NO STATE could compete with Oklahoma's all-time top ten unless you can give me another state with ten Olympic Gold Medalist.

UCO has done very well, in fact her is just Coach James bio with the Bronchos heading into this year:

Now in his second decade of keeping the Central Oklahoma program among the nation's best is head coach David James, who has been with the Bronchos virtually uninterrupted since coming to Edmond as a student-athlete in 1976.

James, a four-time All-American and two-two national champion as a wrestler at UCO, enters his 23rd year at the helm as the winningest coach in school history with a stellar 252-84-5 career dual record against some of the top teams in the country.

He's captured 11 national championship with the Bronchos and has also had five runner-up finishes while earning six national Coach of the Year awards. James won NAIA Coach of the Year laurels in 1984, '86 and '89 and took NCAA II Coach of Year accolades in 1990, '94 and 2000.

D.J. has coached 43 national champions and 134 All-Americans at UCO and his career dual record includes an amazing 202-18-1 mark against NAIA, NCAA II and NCAA III teams. He has guided the Bronchos to 21 consecutive top-four national tournament finishes and 15 straight Midwest Regional titles.

James took control of the UCO program in 1982 and led the team to a fifth-place NAIA finish and 7-6 dual record that first year. The Bronchos asserted themselves the next year with a 11-5-1 dual finish and the first of four straight NAIA championships, winning by a 33-point margin.

UCO went back to the throne room in 1985, going 11-9 in duals and romping to the national title by 53 3/4 points. Central made it three straight in 1986, going 12-7 in duals and winning the NAIA title by a slim 7 1/4-point margin, and James' Bronchos made it four in a row in 1987 with a 20 3/4-point victory in the national tourney after a 12-5 dual season.

The championship streak ended in 1988 with a narrow runner-up finish after a 9-3-1 dual campaign, but James took UCO back to the top in its final year with the NAIA in 1989 with a 13-point margin of victory in the national tournament.

The Bronchos made the move up to NCAA Division II prior to the 1989-90 season and were runners-up in both 1990 and '91. The breakthrough season came in 1992 when UCO went 14-1 in duals and captured its first-ever Division II title.

The Bronchos won a second consecutive championship in 1993 while crowning three individual champions and UCO made it three in a row in 1994 with an overwhelming 61 3/4-point victory behind four champions.

James led UCO to its fourth consecutive crown in 1995 as the Bronchos rolled up 148 points, the second-highest point total in NCAA Division II tournament history. Central fell just short of a fifth straight title in 1996, finishing second with three individual champions, then was third in 1997.

The Bronchos had one champion in 1998 to place fourth, then crowned two national champions in finishing third in 1999. Another runner-up finish followed in 2000 and the Bronchos tied for third in 2001 while going 13-2-1.

UCO made it back on top in 2002, putting together a stellar 15-1 dual record and ending a six-year championship drought by crowning four individual champions in winning its 13th national team title.

James and the Bronchos repeated as title winners in 2003, going 18-1 in duals and finishing with three individual champions. UCO finished third with two individual winners last year, with Cole Province becoming just the 14th four-time national champion in college wrestling history.

James graduated from UCO with a bachelor's degree in physical education in 1980 and spent one year as a UCO graduate assistant. David then served as an assistant coach at Edmond Memorial High School before becoming UCO¹s ninth head coach in 1982.

James ranks ninth on the school's all-time career won-lost charts with a 116-16 record. The Del City native was UCO's first four-time All-American, finishing third as a freshman and second as a sophomore before winning back-to-back NAIA national titles.

He was inducted into the NAIA Hall of Fame (Athlete Category) in 1988 and into the UCO Athletic Hall of Fame in 1991.
_______________________________________________
Other UCO facts:

*Coach James was inducted into the DII Wrestling Hall of Fame this year as well.

*UCO has had 1 olympic wrestler: Duke Clemmons

*UCO was DI runner up back in the mid 30's.

*Former UCO wrestler Mo Lawal is an RPW member of the Oklahoma Slam.

*Former UCO wrestler Aaron Sweazy has wrestled 3 current members of RPW teams!

WSEWC

I think you overemphasize the Freestyle National duals as a measure. I've talked to some wrestlers and coaches in PA and OH, and the National duals is not a key event as compared to Cleveland or Fargo.

My point on the 4th and 5th tier guys wrestling was that sometimes the eastern states can't get their top wrestlers in all 14 weight classes because it's not the big thing. Like you, said they're is a lot of national tournaments to pick and choose.
Also lets look at it hypothetically, say Pennsylvania had a team of their 16 freestyle all-Americans from last year Fargo, and Oklahoma had a team of their 6 freestyle all-Americans. Who would you think would win?

You're right, PA,OH, NJ do send some of their best guys as you referenced above, and they win. But rarely do they get their top 14 guys. By the way, hasn't Ohio won the last two Freestyle Jr National Duals which were held in Oklahoma.

Also do you think if the duals were held in Pittsburgh or Columbus, do you think Oklahmoa would be successful as in the past?

Being the scholar, I looked up the finishes by the relevant state over the last five years for the High School national championships.

Ohio Penn NJ KS OK
2005 2nd 11th ??? 6th 17th
2004 1st 3rd 5th 19th 22nd
2003 1st 7th 2nd teens teens
2002 1st 11th 2nd 4th 11th
2001 3rd 4th 2nd 5th 19th
2000 1st teens 3rd teens 5th

Interesting KS had more success than Oklahoma.
Oklahoma does very average.

I'll give Oklahoma credit on having a tremendous history. 10 Olympians is impressive. Iowa and Penn would also have a good list, but couldn't compare to OKlahoma. When Oklahoma does have a top notch guy, he does very well. But Oklahoma isn't that deep.

The Scholar