Well put coach DeWitt.

His motive should have been to bring the KSHSAA to their senses! It is ridiculous that more than 50% of the varsity participants from 5A and 6A schools qualify for state. (I say more than 50% because some teams are unable to fill an entire roster.) These two classes should be combined. KSHSAA crowns four state champs in each weight and there are only 2.7M people in KS. Wisconsin crowns three and there are 5.7M residents. NY crowns one with over 19.2M inhabitants. It is no wonder that you have to win at Fargo if you are from Kansas if you want a D1 school to notice you.

... and I tend to agree with Will on this!

When was the last time we had a finalist at the National HS Tourney? It seems like we send 3-timers and even 4-time Kansas champs to this event and they come home 1-2, 2-2. Tristen Deshazer, a Kansas 4-timer, finished an outstanding 4th last year!

When we compare our best to the rest of Nation I think we come up a bit short!

I think we live in a small-shallow pond. Clearly our National status would improve if we combined 4 little ponds and made a bigger one!

once again Randy, you've nailed it

many folks on themat can't believe that Kansas has 4 classes in wrestling (and arizona has even more). We already combine classes to form 321a, so we should just as easily be able to combine other classes as well. this would give much more credibility to the term "state champ" in Kansas.

I don't know if he was the last one to do it, but Joe Johnston got second when he went. He was only a two timer, with a second place and sixth place before that.

But I agree with you guys. Consolidating the top two, or even top three, classes would be a great idea. Not only would it lend more credibility to a state title in Kansas, it would make simply placing at the state tournament quite an accomplishment as well.

I've always said that 5th and 6th don't count. Combine the classes and I would consider aknowledging them.

With 4 classes, Kansas is too watered down for the population of the state. Combine 5A and 6A and then you have an accomplishment. I'm don't want to take anything away from the kids that qualified to state. But with regional weight classes that are riddled with byes in 8 man brackets, its just a little to easy to qualify. Correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't there a few weight classes at some 6A regionals that had only 4 kids entered. Just weigh in, get beat twice and your going to state.
Something is wrong with that. Granted, Kansas is not the only state with 4 our more classifications(Missouri,Oklahoma,Arizona, etc.). 3 Classes would be good for the sunflower state. By having 3 classes, this would provide the opportunity to have state at one location. This is another glaring problem in KS, and another subject.

I don't think Kansas having four classes instead of three classes has that much to do with our wrestlers not getting noticed by Division I wrestling schools or obtaining scholarships. I think the bigger reason there is limited college wrestling opportunities for Kansas wrestlers has more to do with the fact that we do not have Division I wrestling at Wichita State, K-State and KU. More opportunity would open up for Kansas wrestlers if we had programs at universities outside of Kansas too like Texas, Colorado, Texas A&M, etc.. More college wrestling opportunities for Kansas wrestlers would open up if we had programs at Pitt State, Washburn and Emporia State. The number of Kansas wrestling scholarships in comparison to a sport like football has more to do with the limited amount of overall college wrestling scholarships available.

I really do not see it that the KSHSAA purpose should be to set up a state wrestling tournament series so more kids are noticed by Division I wrestling schools or to help us develop national finalists in the national high school tourney.

I am just not sure why Kansas high school wrestling should be that different than any other high school sport in their state tournament series. Don't the other sports in Kansas have at least four classes too? I have been around a lot of cross country state meets the last several years and they have a lot of runners who qualify with their teams to the state meet. Many of them are not as a good as the lead runners but the state experience seems to me to be a very good thing for them. I think they get a lot out of it.

I saw a lot of wrestlers this weekend who probably had under .500 records but I also think they got a lot out of the experience. A lot of them probably just started wrestling in high school. Do we really want to take this state experience away from them? Maybe we are lighting a fire in them for wrestling from this state experience that will last the rest of their life. Possibly they will get their kids involved later in life due to this experience. Maybe we are getting their parents and friends interested in wrestling for the first time. We need this sport to grow with the broad sporting public if we really want college wrestling opportunities to grow.

I think there are too many teams qualifying for state in football in Kansas as well. Vince, I am not sure what the KSHSAA is for but it does appear they are all about making things mediocre and all against doing things to become the best. When it comes to leveling the playing field they over do the job. At some point in time everyone learns that life isn't a level playing field. Maybe not making state would push some of these boys to greater heights either the next year or when they have kids later. The USA was built with a sound foundation of capitalism and the KSHSAA seems to have a fourndation and four walls firmly built with socialistic principles. I respect your opinion but I just don't think it is on target this time. The only way to improve is to raise the bar.

Records definitely are overrated. Strength of schedule is a huge variable if you are going compare kids.

In my opinion if 4A somehow only had 32 schools competing like 5A and 6A, you would see a similar amount of losing records.

My perception of the Kansas scene (and common in other states) is that rural communities generate a strong interest in wrestling in most cases. The small town newspapers and radio stations and other media give decent coverage of wrestling. Blue collar and farm kids really do well in this sport.


Conversely, I see in the bigger cities where you have the bigger schools, wrestling is not as popular and basketball gets a huge amount of the attention. Yes, you have a bigger pool to draw from but you probably see participation levels in wrestling similar to the smaller schools. And to be honest, sometimes you see less participation. The bigger schools do put out that blue chip college recruite type wrestler more often which is a function of the bigger numbers. But the overall depth in the big schools is really not there. Large Media coverage of wrestling in Kansas takes a huge backseat to basketball. I'll say it, the KC Star is horrible on wrestling coverage.


Note it's good thing and a great learning experience for the kids that get to state. But if almost everybody get's there, than it just becomes another tournament and loses some of its luster. I'm going to use as an example states like IL, IN, OH, NY and PA. Qualifying for state in these states is more difficult than placing in KS. I base this judgement partly on the number of matches kids have to win to get to state. You have to win 6 sometimes 7 matches. If you're a state qualifier, you know you did something.

Will,

Make Kansas one high school class and you still don't have any more college opportunities available to Kansas kids. You still have the same limited number of colleges offering D-I programs out there. You still have the limited amount of scholarships that each school can give out. I believe it is somewhere around 9 or 10 scholarships. There is very limited money and opportunity in college wrestling right now. That is evidently a reflection of the interest in wrestling. You are not addressing that aspect of what I posted. We are not going to grow college wrestling opportunities until we develop more general interest with the sporting public. If anything by limiting the amount of wrestlers participating in state wrestling tournaments you are going to do nothing but impede not grow general wrestling interest. We need people and new people in the seats in big numbers. We should not be doing things to lower the numbers at high school state tournaments. I would say a pretty high percentage of the spectators at these state tournaments this weekend were family and friends. If their kids are not there wrestling, they are not coming to the state tournaments. Do you really want wrestling to be a sport for just the elite wrestlers and their families?

This is public school education mainly that the KSHSAA is governing. They are serving the public not a profit goal. The public school system is supported by the tax dollars of all the citizens not just families of elite wrestlers.

I think if someone wants their child to pursue an elite wrestling career that there are plenty of opportunities outside our regular high school season like our freestyle and greco programs. Now there are also more national post high school season folkstyle tournaments than there have been in the past. Actually I think due to the lack of budgets for most college wrestling programs that they are more likely to scout potential college wrestlers at these post high school season national folkstyle and freestyle tournaments. I would see someone approaching wrestling excellence this way as more following the traditional capitalistic approach that you talked about. This is the way that I believe that excellence in about every sport in America is being pursued today. It is not thru the regular season high school competition but from year around premier competition. American youth and their families are investing in their athletic development in these premier teams and in expensive year around training programs. Isn't personal investments such as this the capitalistic way?

I disagree with you too that not making state is going to make a wrestler work harder. It might but I also think that being at State also gives a wrestler extra incentive to want to improve to be better. I know my own son saw some wrestlers there that inspired him and he is pumped up to work harder now to improve how he does next year. He saw those state champions in action and he wants to work hard now to become one someday. He would not have felt that way if he was not there. I know that because he was not at State as a freshman and he was not as enthused last year as he is today after being at State last weekend. Another value I see to it from improving a wrestler is that I think there is some value to experience it and learn what it is about by getting on the mat in a state competition. I think that can benefit you in your next state competition.

Will, for the record here is the Kansas State High School Activities Association Mission Statement:

Goals that Influence Student Learning Outcomes

The Kansas State High School Activities Asssociation advocates principles and sponsors services which assure that the state's middle level and high school students gain a balanced preparation for life, work, and post-secondary education.

Principles on Which Intend Outcomes are Based

Principles advocated by the association are promotion of scholastic achievement as a fundamental basis for a well-balanced activity program and development of effective citizenship through the practice of good sportmanship.

Vince,

I never said it would create more college opportunities. Nothing is going to do that until Title IX is addressed. My point was that Division 1 coaches do not view Kansas High School State Champions in the same light as Iowa state champions or Wisconsin State Champions. If you want to be a Division 1 wrestler and you wrestle in a Kansas High School you better do well at Fargo or walk on.

Having kids with losing records, to the degree that 5a and 6a do, diminishes the quality of wrestling. I know of one wrestler who posted wins on his record but actually didn't win a wrestling match and made it to state this year. To me, that is a joke. I totally agree with everything posted by "fan of the sport" as the participation level at 5A and 6A probably isn't greater and may be less than that of 4A and 321A. There are far more extracurricular options for kids in the larger schools. Larger schools are in larger cities which offer far more job opportunities and other non-school activities.

The restrictions against extra practicing, coaches not being able to work with kids outside of the season, the limited travel and matches, all of these KSHSAA mandates weaken wrestling. These rules protect the kids who don't want to put in the extra time and protect the coaches who don't want to put in the extra time. These are the socialistic rules that I am speaking of. The top programs in the country wrestle the top programs in the country. Has a team from Kansas ever gone to one of these elite team events? I don't think so because they are beyond the limits mandated by the KSHSAA. I never said that wrestling should just be for the elite but I disagree STRONGLY with rewarding the mediocre or less than average. What are you teaching your kids then? You don't have to work as hard as the guys at the top but you will still get the same rewards?

You can agree or disagree with me about whether a wrestler is incented to work harder if they don't make it to state but you have to agree that losing records to the degree we have them makes our state tournament look weak.

If you want people in the seats and big numbers then we need the event to be in one location so the fans can see all of the wrestlers in state. The fans want to see the best wrestle the best. More often than not this never happens because we have too many classifications. If we are inviting as many kids to state as possible to fill the seats with parents and relatives that is a pretty sad state of affairs.

If we are talking combining classes simply based on strength. Then 6a should be combined with 3a-1a not 5a. 5a Was already the toughest class to win a state championship in. Look at the thread for All-Kansas team, 5A already has something like 6 kids listed as favories, One weight a toss up, 130, and 2 for 3a-1a, 3 for 4a, and 2 for 6a.

If will change from year to year, but 5a was the toughest class to win a state championship in this year. Maybe not place but win. Next year it could be 4a, it's usually one of those two classes.

Combining 5a-6a would make the others a cake walk in comparison. IMO you either need to go to 1 class or possibly 2 if you are going to combine.

24/7

How many kids have really been affected scholarship wise by having more than one state. If the kid is that good when he goes to nationals, freestyle or greco he will prove himself there

Plus, no more money than a D1 schollie amounts to, I don't think I would make that my first concern.

Novice State

I think that Cokeley in on point on this topic. What I am getting from Will, correct me if I am wrong Will, is that you only get better if you are wrestling the best. It doesn't matter win or loose, just wrestling the best gets you notoriety on the D1 level. Here is a moto "to be the best you have to wrestle the best". Hum, wonder where that comes from?

It is sad that for our kids state it is a grand state. They don't separate the little kids by classes, yes there are more weight classes, but i doesn't matter if you come from a town of 200 population or from a town 10X that size.

My son realized this this past weekend at the 4A state championships. he said "Dad, all the kids that i wrestle now won't be in my bracket in high school?" I replied "Yes". He then commented, "High school will be easier than kids". I told him "Not always". If a 9 year old can see it why can't everyone else?

Have you ever wondered why HS state champs don't go to kids state after they have won a HS title, if their age allows,? Is it because they are a little afraid of having the "State Champ" tarnished do to a loss at kids state? You can't say, well why would they?

They won HS state they don't need to go. If they wanted the D1 schools looking at them they would continue on. I am very close to some of the current and past coaches at OSU, P. Smith, Mark Branch, Shane Roller and others. All 3 of these guys stated "to get noticed by D1 schools you almost have to place at Fargo".

Shane Roller stated that his kids titles and Tulsa Nationals titles helped his credentials probably more so than his 4 HS titles. One word backs up what Will is saying about Fargo being the main tournament for kids from Kansas. "Erisman"!!!! Yes, he placed at Fargo.

Bring back grand state or combine them all. All kids need to know that when in the real world there are no classifications pertaining to where you are from if you are applying for a job.

Are we setting up our kids for disappointments and failures by giving them the false sense of what the real world is about?

Not bashing or wanting to upset people just sate my opinion and raising some points to ponder.

Jason Wood

If you are going to be spanked, would you rather it be done in relative privacy or at the State Tournament?